Forum Topic

Sutton Court Road Yellow box.

Yellow box been added to north side looks like camera has been added. Not activated yet.

Paul Brown ● 4d90 Comments

Cue the thin skinned Lycra bully boys getting all defensive.The thread was turned into something else when twerps like Paul James decided that LTNs were the solution. As always. The lack of imagination if some people is staggering. It’s a wonder some of you can stay upright.And if you don’t like what’s posted, David, don’t read it.

Simon Hayes ● 1h

Discussion about a box junction relating to vehicular traffic ,cue for a certain individual to start slagging off cyclists.

David Burke ● 3h

Yes Francis, that it is an interesting argument that drivers cut through residential streets purely for altruistic reasons and concern for residents in the streets they are avoiding.  So nothing at all to do with google telling them they may be able to save 30 seconds.

Michael Robinson ● 5h

No dispute about the very evident differences between the roads and that SCR is designed to carry higher levels of traffic. As both roads are residential, there is an argument that the responsible thing to do is use the one with less traffic as the health harms from pollution result from exceptionally high levels therefore spreading the damage to air quality improves health outcomes.

Francis Rowe ● 6h

Clearly the people who plan Hounslow road infrastructure haven't got a clue (unless it's raking in money). How will this mess get cleaned up? On previous form there will be little chance of anyone admitting they've made a mistake and putting things right. Best we might hope for is a survey. Ripe smell here - no one could be strupid enough to design the double box fiasco and think it would help anything but the coffers

Davy Jones ● 6h

"Whether you choose the Sutton Court Road route or the Dukes Avenue/Barrowgate Road route to get to this junction you are travelling on primarily residential roads with similar carriageway widths."Francis,The treatments applied to the two different routes are very different.  Almost all of Barrowgate and Dukes have no lane markings, parking on both sides of the roads and many sections where two way traffic isn't possible because of parked cars.  This involves one vehicle stopping where there is a gap and giving way to the oncoming vehicle.  Very typical for residential streets but certainly not the case for roads intended for higher volumes of traffic.Heathfield/SCR is a bus route, there are lane markings, no locations with car parking on both sides of the road and no car parking at all for the ~250m N of the A4.Clearly the people who plan Hounslow road infrastructure and determine the treatments applied to roads don't think they are the same.

Michael Robinson ● 8h

I don't think it is helpful to get in semantics and the morality of whether a road is a ratrun or not. The question doesn't really have any bearing on the more important issue of whether or not these changes are actively harmful. There appears to be growing evidence that they are.For people not familiar with the area, Sutton Court Road, Dukes Avenue and Barrowgate Road are all unclassified roads, broadly the same width and primarily residential. While it is clearly legal to use Dukes Avenue and Barrowgate Road, I'd argue that it is also not anti-social. The disbenefit to  residents of these roads of you driving past where they live is offset by the benefit to Sutton Court Road residents. I hasten to add I don't habitually take either route.

Francis Rowe ● 8h

Except it is closing roads Paul. Closing them to the people who pay for them. You can’t have it both ways when you claim cyclists pay for roads so should have exclusive use of them, then say that other taxpayers should be barred from them. It’s the weird sort of logic you have employed on the Ealing Todau website for years.What you have to accept is that there are still far more people travelling by car than cycle, and a lot of those car drivers have very valid reasons for making those journeys, however long they may be.Perhaps you ought to clarify what constitutes a longer journey or a local one where people shouldn’t drive. And what is an essential journey. You won’t of course because there’s no such legal definition.Then again, using Michael’s twisted logic, your living in the far reaches of Hanwell means your postings here are increasingly irrelevant.

Simon Hayes ● 9h

>Sorry, Paul. Not a rat run.>It is an alternative route for those who live in Grove Park.It's a rat run if some drivers are using it to get from main road to main road.People using a road to get to and from properties on it are not rat running, even if they do it on a road used as a rat run.Drivers should be be stopped from using unclassified streets to get from main road to main road as part of a bigger journey. This is not closing roads as people can still use them to get to and from properties in the area.

Paul James ● 9h

There are loads of better and simpler solutions to this not very problematic junction. However none of them will bring in the revenue Hounslow wants.One suspects the other motive is to create permanent traffic jams on Barrowgate so that in due course the council will propose closing the road. Doubtless that’s already been discussed with Michael and his LCC chums at their cosy meetings with Hounslow traffic officers at the Express Tavern.

Simon Hayes ● 9h

Sorry, Paul. Not a rat run.It is an alternative route for those who live in Grove Park. Having made the trek from CHR to Grove Park daily for years, when Chiswick Lane was backed up, the SCR option was taken. Don't look now, but there was no alternative. Except the alternative. As Simon has mentioned, we all pay for the roads. Why then can't we all use them? Don't like it? Fund your own roads.

David Lesniak ● 9h

As someone who has lived close to that junction for over 30 years the yellow boxes have been poorly thought through.During busy periods it is not clear to me how people turning left from Barrowgate on to the south bound SCR will be able to do so - by the time they can see the road is clear enough to complete the turn someone further up SCR will already be moving to fill the space. The same also applies to someone on the east side of Barrowgate wanting to drive across to the west side of Barrowgate.  This could be solved by shortening the yellow box slightly so that it does not impact people coming out of the east side of Barrowgate.Secondly whilst the junction is not particularly dangerous there is and always has been an issue with people travelling south on SCR deciding to overtake the queuing traffic because they see some space in the right turn lane at the traffic lights.  The yellow box will not prevent that.  Far simpler would be to install a pedestrian island 20 years or so north of the Barrowgate/SCR junction which would serve people seeking to get across SCR to the northbound bus stop

Justin Stephenson ● 9h

Pull the other one Paul.Everything you and your LCC chums have posted over the years is entirely judgmental. Car drivers are the lowest of the low in your opinion.These are public roads, paid for by tax revenues. You frequently point this out. They are not private gated communities.

Simon Hayes ● 11h

>There isn't really any cause to be judgemental.It's not judgemental.I believe the term comes from cabbies, rats runs are side streets that are used to get between main roads and rat runners are people that do this.Of course, people that often do this do it in a massive hurry, even agressively and can make these back streets horrible places to be at times, especially with stand offs and give way gambling, and having main road traffic on back streets is not ideal as there are rarely any of the main road interventions to help people not in cars, like cycle lanes and pedestrian crossings.https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/rat-runThere's nothing derogatory in this term, nobody is being called a rat, in fact rats are amazing creatures, so it people that take offence at the phrase are being judgemental on them.

Paul James ● 11h

In answer to Michael's very good point about the gap between the two yellow junction boxes (which has now created a solid queue blocking the Barrowgate Road junction on both sides), the thinking must have been that if the junction box was continuous, then right turning traffic out of Barrowgate Road would block the northbound lane of SCR.I believe the key to understanding decisions made about the road layout in this area must always consider the impact on flows on the A4 which is the absolute top priority for TfL. I've never seen the northbound carriageway being blocked due to a log jam at the Barrowgate Road junction but that's not to say it doesn't happen. My guess is that it has been decided that formal enforcement at the junction will improve flows. This remains to be seen but anyone saying this is primarily motivated by revenue (even me when I alluded to this possibility earlier in this thread) is wrong. TfL would not allow changes this close to the A4 for any other reasons than improving flow.I still haven't been to have a look but there seems to be general agreement from those that have, that these changes are not working well and they might need to be suspended pronto.On a different point, we probably (me included) need to be a bit careful about using the term ratrunner in this context. Whether you choose the Sutton Court Road route or the Dukes Avenue/Barrowgate Road route to get to this junction you are travelling on primarily residential roads with similar carriageway widths. The main difference is that on the latter the houses are more expensive. Local people know to use that route if SCR is very congested and non-locals are probably directed that way by SatNav. There isn't really any cause to be judgemental.

Francis Rowe ● 12h

It's funny isn't it?There's a junction on the A501 ( Marylebone Road) with Marylebone High Street which would benefit from a yellow box ( and I doubt anyone would really object).95% of the time, when the filter traffic light for traffic that wants to turn right from Marylebone Road into the High Street turns green, sensible drivers heading West on the A501 have left the junction clear. Every once in a while, a thoughtless driver blocks the junction - and they gain no personal advantage from doing this, as they won't progress further westwards more quickly than those drivers that elect to leave the junction clear.For whatever reason, Westminster haven't bothered to put a yellow box there ( and there are plenty of yellow boxes on the A501). Putting a yellow box there would marginally improve traffic flow. NOt by much, but it definitely would.Here in Hounslow? By the anectdotal reports ( yes anectdotal I agree so taken with a pinch of salt) traffic flow is degraded by the introduction.I won't make any further comments until I actually see what the road layout and markings are now. Still very sceptical, and I don't find myself usually agreeing with the likes of Simon Hayes!

Andrew Jones ● 20h

Always follow the money. Never about safety, otherwise there would be box junctions in other locations ahead of this one.Unfortunately idiots like Robinson and his little band of LCC chums have been dictating traffic policy for several years. He’s very brave sitting behind his keyboard, less so in person. Like most bigots he only understands his own viewpoint and gets very irate when challenged.Why doesn’t he pop down to B&Q or one of the builders merchants and discuss his policies with the customers there? Terrified to do so, one suspects.

Simon Hayes ● 1d

It’s a sad state of affairs then that the most plausible reason is to make money. I thought councils were there to serve us not spend their time conjuring up new ways to catch us out and make a load of money.And the government wonders why there’s unrest.

Gerry McCarthy ● 1d

Well, if it has been discredited then you'll be able to post references to peer-reviewed academic research.  Of course you can't because this doesn't exist except in your imagination.  Just like the 22,000 cars that used to drive over Hammersmith Bridge that he thinks are still driving around looking for another bridge.Is it true that Simon Hayes was threatened with an injunction because of the level of abuse he directed to a councillor in Ealing?It really wouldn't be a surprise because he only appears to have 3 settings. "Angry", "Very Angry" and "Stand well back because of scalding risk from his boiling urine".

Michael Robinson ● 1d

Just walked past it, traffic flow just as bad, but definitely making money for council. Sorry little Festa driver you’ve got a fine coming.

Paul Brown ● 1d

"A right turn filter down Sutton Court Road would eliminate the need for the stranger diversion everyone currently has to take."Looking at google maps aerial view of the A4/Sutton Court Road junction it seems like a sensible idea given it looks like it would be fairly easy to reposition the central reservation on the A4 that's to the west of the junction a little bit more to the south. I wonder why this idea has been rejected? I presume it must have been suggested before.

Andrew Jones ● 1d

Making yourself look a twat again Michael. Aldred’s research has been discredited. Using a vehicle for work doesn’t make one car brained, whatever that means. But being a bigot seems to be your stock in trade. Don’t you think there might be a lot of people who access Grove Park that way for very valid reasons?Probably not as that would require some degree of intelligence on your part.If Barrowgate Road is such a rat run (and how you love that phrase for a publicly funded road, which we all pay for) why hasn’t a simple solution been put in place on the A4. A right turn filter down Sutton Court Road would eliminate the need for the stranger diversion everyone currently has to take.But then you probably can’t comprehend a solution like that.Of course, your thick pals Paul James and Dominik Klimowski are Ealing residents, so their idiotic contributions don’t count either. And you are happy to put your thoughts into what happens well beyond the confines of the little patch of Chiswick where you live.I know about the orbital rail link. Unlikely to happen in your lifetime, which might be considerably shorter than most of your cycling is as careless as your posts on here.

Simon Hayes ● 1d

Traffic evaporation is discredited in the minds of inveterate carbrains like Simon Hayes because he needs to think that everyone is as fixated about driving as he is, but in the real world, he won't be able to find any serious research contradicting it.As Mr Hayes is an Ealing resident, I don't know why he is getting so worked up about a yellow box junction in Hounslow. That is nothing, just wait until he finds out about the West London Orbital rail plans for Ealing... his ranting will be off the scale.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

It is the designated route from the A4. Maybe Michael doesn’t want anyone to go there.As usual Michael extrapolates what he wants from some data, lobs in his ‘valuable’ personal opinion and passes it off as fact. One wonders how pleasant his road is if he lives on it. Better ask his neighbours.People aren’t robots, although Michael’s default of abusing anyone who uses a vehicle as ‘car brained’ would indicate that his jaundiced view of his fellow Londoners is pretty low. Sadly for him a lot of his cycling chums do, in fact, drive and often drive frequently for short journeys.The supposed evaporation of traffic is a myth the pro LTN eejits always put forward. The research of Rachel Aldred that Michael and his cycling chums used to rely on has been so discredited they don’t mention it any longer. It seems the traffic evaporates if you don’t measure anything going less than 10kph. Just fancy that.The final point is that the Barrowgate box junctions are thee purely to raise revenue. Hounslow council stated as much earlier this year. Clearly Michael and his LCC mates have locked the councils balls so much they will do anything to please them.

Simon Hayes ● 1d

I agree some of the Barrowgate East traffic will be rat runners. But the Barrowgate West traffic is the ONLY way into Grove Park if you are not on the "special LTN list" and it is the way traffic is directed off the A4 and it is now almost  impossible to turn right at this junction onto Sutton Court Road . The gridock this is causing must be terrible for the people who live around this junction

Ceinwen Mailvagnam ● 1d

Except the queuing traffic on Barrowgate is made up from ratrunners. Traffic surveys have been done in the area using ANPR cameras and over 90% of traffic entering Dukes Avenue from CHR was driving straight through the area to Barrowgate/SCR or the A4.The street where I live in Chiswick has been closed to ratrunning traffic and it is a lot more pleasant as a result.  I'm happy to pass on my experience of a street that used to be afflicted by ratrunning traffic and how this was addressed.  There are lots of other streets in Chiswick that also have measures to stop ratrunning traffic.The trouble with your "traffic moves elsewhere" view is you are assuming that people are brainless robots who will always drive and can never do anything else.  That may be true in your case but I prefer to think that most of the  population do have a brain and can make decisions about their choice of transport.  Hammersmith Bridge is a case in point as the 22,000 vehicles that used to drive over the bridge have now evaporated and traffic over the neighbouring bridges is now less than it was before the closure.What is the problem with traffic moving to a designated A-route anyway? It is meant to handle  higher volumes of traffic.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

It was always an odd one that the signpost recommended leaving the A4 and going through a residential road to reach Grove Park. My view is that this was an early indication that TfL were concerned about the ability of Hogarth Roundabout to handle right turning traffic. I'm not sure if people who live in Grove Park habitually use this route but its usage will have increased since the SCLN restrictions and now may rise further if my hunch is right about how these changes will impact traffic flows.Paul, I do understand that the world would be a better place if more people were able and/or chose to use buses rather than cars. However, in this particular instance the two routes along SCR only offer a handful of stops having crossed the A4 meaning they will only provide an option to a very small number of people who are travelling along this road. An improved bus service is probably impractical given the short light phase at the A4 crossing therefore we have to play the hand we are dealt on this one. From the public transport perspective, the worry would be that these changes will create more delays on the southbound SCR screwing up the schedule of the E3 and 272. When this road is heavily congested there is a knock on effect right across the route.

Francis Rowe ● 1d

You are making things up again Michael. Queuing traffic doesn’t indicate it’s a rat run, to use your ridiculous term. It indicates that there’s a blockage on the road network that is preventing the smooth flow of vehicles around the area. Now, I wonder what that is.You seem very keen to close everyone’s roady, even if it’s nothing to do with you. You don’t know where those vehicles originate. Local residents probably.As you know, traffic doesn’t evaporate if you close roads, it moves elsewhere and creates more congestion.

Simon Hayes ● 1d

I think you'll find that Mr Jones' maths is incorrect when it comes to calculating number of years.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

To your point on cycling etiquette, Simon, yesterday I was cycling down Dale Street after turning left from Glebe. There was another cyclist directly in the center of Dale coming at me. I couldn't figure out which way he wanted to go as he simply stayed put in the middle. So I opted to veer to my right. He veered to his left directly at me and said "you're on the wrong side of the road, mate." Older British man, fit. Totally kitted out. And dare I say arrogant. Mind you there was also a pedestrian in the street closer to me than not so the cyclist pinched us when really, nothing needed to be done. No cars by the way. Mid afternoon. Irony is, the middle isn't a side.Back on point, I'm quite familiar with the SCR junction given we used to live in Grove Park. It is a tricky, tricky junction now made worse. Always slow, always people inching and butting in. There's also a piece of me thinking how I don't really pity those in Grove Park if they have to drive further now to get home. What with all their campaigning to that effect when they opted to privatize the roads. Seems like a bit of karma to me.And, fun fact, Hounslow sent a PCN in the mail three years after the fact when we entered the yellow box on CHR by Ennismore and got stuck because someone in front of us blocked traffic moving when they turned out of another side street. Even though it was clear our intent was to move through the box. So I don't buy all these exceptions to the rule mentioned.

David Lesniak ● 1d

True, but the junction does look like a hot spot when you look at the map of all the roads in the vicinity.I still have this nagging feeling that this yellow box is more about money raising than road safety and reducing traffic congestion, and I'll probably keep having doubts unless some more information is forthcoming about what caused the incidents that were recorded, and some convincing arguments that a yellow box would have prevented these incidents from happening.The only other thing is the fact that these were "recorded" incidents. There were probably plenty of unrecorded incidents as well.In short, my mind is now more open to the idea that there might be good reasons for a yellow box, but I remain to be convinced and until I am convinced I'll probably maintain my cynicism that this is most likely to be driven by the council's belief that it's a revenue raising opportunity.

Andrew Jones ● 1d

"The problems with turning left from Barrowgate resulted in traffic backed up to Duke's Avenue. "That seems to indicate the extent of ratrunning traffic using Dukes Ave and Barrowgate to bypass lights at CHR and trying to jump the queue on SCR.The solution to this would be to discourage/prevent through traffic using this route rather than trying to make it easier.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

Avoiding the argument as to whether the boxes are necessary , which I doubt.I would like an explanation as to why there are two boxes with the opportunity of free passage through the middle. This is of no benefit to northbound traffic trying to turn east over a single larger box. It does mean that southbound traffic can form a second line without hindrance and effectively block access to Barrowgate Road. It makes no sense.Nor does the behaviour of the E3 bus yesterday that deliberately blocked the southbound box effectively blocking access to Barrowgate whilst the traffic was statioary.The problems with turning left from Barrowgate resulted in traffic backed up to Duke's Avenue. That motionless line effectively prevented eastbound traffic as the road has few places where two cars can pass.This must be reconsidered as a priority. I look for leadership from the local councillers

Peter Milligan ● 1d

>It is a relatively small number of vehicle lengths from the junction with the A4 and often many of them will be taken up by a bus. That one bus has 70 or more people on.Now put them in 60 cars...Then you can start to see and maybe even concede what the actual problem is here.

Paul James ● 1d

The route with the right turn from Barrowgate to SCR is a signposted route on the A4 for eastbound drivers going to Grove Park.  There isn't a right turn on the A4 so the signs direct drivers via Sutton Ln N, Barrowgate, SCR.No idea if this route will also be favoured by drivers not on the A4.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

Long delays and congestion yesterday evening. And how many PCNs were issued? Might become their latest high -earner camera!

Davy Jones ● 1d

Less than 1 per year - and 7 were minor incidents

Davy Jones ● 1d

Thanks Michael, I can now see the same number of reported incidents (9) as you can - not sure why I could only see 3 before.Given the revised information, I have to conclude (looking at the roads in the vicinity) that this is a hotspot for incidents.I have to hope that the "cure" won't cause more issues than the "disease".

Andrew Jones ● 1d

That you are such a courteous and considerate driver does you much credit but you need to consider how your elevated standards of behaviour will operate at this junction which you evidently aren't familiar with.It is a relatively small number of vehicle lengths from the junction with the A4 and often many of them will be taken up by a bus. The light phase that allows people to cross the A4 is very short at the best of times and falls to just a few seconds if TfL want to accelerate movement on the A4.This results in tailbacks right up Sutton Court Road and it can take over 15 minutes to reach where the yellow box junction is located. When there are queues along Sutton Court Road, many drivers seek to avoid them by going down Dukes Avenue and then joining at Barrowgate Road.If you were to reach the front of this queue and adopted your 'after you sir' approach some of the many drivers queueing behind you might take issue with your generosity particularly as you are enabling ratrunning.My concern is that the yellow junction box will change the direction that ratrunning occurs at this point to the western end of Barrowgate Road. I still haven't had a chance to go and have a look properly but it seems to me possible that drivers emerging from Barrowgate Road to turn right onto the A4 will believe that, unlike a Keep Clear box, the yellow junction box does allow them to move onto the southbound carriageway of Sutton Court Road and stop. It seems to me that they would be justified in doing this as they wouldn't know when they exited Barrowgate Road if oncoming vehicles on the other side of Barrowgate Road would prevent them exiting the yellow junction box when turning right onto the A4. The council may have a different view but I think they may struggle to fine drivers turning right out of Barrowgate Road. The fact that there are two junction boxes suggest the council accepts that drivers turning right can move forward as long as they don't block the northbound lane of Sutton Court Road. This means that priority at this junction has all but been handed to traffic emerging out of the western end of Barrowgate Road something that will be quickly picked up on initially by professional drivers and then baked into apps like Waze.

Francis Rowe ● 1d

If the powers that be are using incident data to predict where to place a Yellow Box then they could very easily have included the bus that ran off the road round about there and took out a few garden walls in Sutton Court Road. Of course no amount of Yellow Boxes could have prevented that but this is (perhaps) what we are up against when trying to deal with a local council trying to grab money.

Chris Blackwell ● 1d

Michael might do better to stand on Kew Bridge and explain to the many cyclists who use the cycling prohibited pavement exactly what a bike symbol in a red circle means. The arsehole weaving through the pedestrians I stopped on Saturday afternoon insisted it meant you could cycle there. He was foreign and clearly had no clue about the Highway Code, nor any interest in looking at it.

Simon Hayes ● 1d

I think you need to go back to school and work on both your maths and English comprehension.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

The council will have access to the full collision reports to understand how the collisions occurred.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

Thanks Michael I think you've nailed it - it is a revenue earner. As the data you provided shows us Michael Robinson, this isn't, or wasn't, a high risk area. Within 10m of the junction there were just 9 incidents over 10 years. Thankfully just 2 were serious and as the data shows, a yellow box would not have prevented them. Let's hope and see if this very busy junction continues in this manner.But well done Michael for showing us 'the way'!

Davy Jones ● 1d

So if you can’t trust the data, why are you bothering to post it on here? Seems a very lame attempt to justify your very weak argument in support of these new boxes.As I said, the council’s main priority is to plug a £5million funding gap by targeting motorists. New box junction on Kew Bridge Road at the junction of Green Dragon Lane appeared last week as well.Here’s something for you to read Michael.https://www.mylondon.news/news/transport/west-london-drivers-face-more-33304827.amp

Simon Hayes ● 1d

As I’ve mentioned, you can’t trust the location shown on the map is the exact location of the collision because of inherent inaccuracies recording the details. If they have recorded the location using an OS grid reference then it will be about +/- 10m.The detailed collision reports will have a fuller description of the movements of the vehicles (or other road users) prior to the collision.  So it will say if one vehicle rear-ended another, or a vehicle emerging from a side road collided with a vehicle on the main road, for example.

Michael Robinson ● 1d

It’s entirely designed to generate revenue. Hounslow council was shameless in announcing that it would be targeting ‘enforcement’ on drivers passing through the borough to generate at least £5millon to plug its funding gap. As someone I spoke to in Chiswick today said, they won’t be putting these in Hounslow itself.It’s not actually a box junction. It’s two small box junctions with a narrow gap between. Poorly designed and likely a lot of loopholes that the council won’t be able to close.Oh, and don’t bother paying any attention to Paul James. He’s a cycling nut job from Hanwell who drives when it suits him but constantly whines about ‘too many cars’. An expert on road traffic law he is not.

Simon Hayes ● 2d

That’s interesting - I thought I’d set everything to select all, will have another look tomorrow.

Andrew Jones ● 2d

Yes. None of these would have been helped by a yellow box, as you've shown. No serious vehicle on vehicle collisions at the junction.The bus crash happened 40 yards from the junction. The 2 serious incidents were with vehicles and pedestrian and a cyclist near to the junction. The most recent with a pedestrian took place in winter late afternoon in the rain with poor visibility. Possible speeding, hope the driver got done.All awful events, but as you've underlined, the yellow boxes would not have prevented them happening.

Davy Jones ● 2d

Not sure yellow box  junctions are installed for road safety. How does that work ? Will probably lead to more  accidents with drivers panicking if they think their going to be caught.

Gerry McCarthy ● 2d

It depends if you consider 9 casualties (7 slight, 2 serious) from 2017 to 2025 as being "remarkably safe". (this doesn't include the 8 people slightly injured in a crash involving a bus north of the junction).The detailed collision reports will have more information about the circumstances of each collision to determine why they happened.

Michael Robinson ● 2d

As Michael Robinson has demonstrated it was a remarkably safe junction - looking at the data there doesn't seem to be many accidents if at all that could have been prevented by the yellow boxes. Top citizen action from Michael. Well done!!!Now we can see it's just a money grubbing exercise.

Davy Jones ● 2d

When I looked at the map, between 01/01/2017 and 31/12/2025 I could see 9 casualties clustered at the junction (2 serious, 7 slight).  The larger circle to the north is the crash involving the bus with 8 casualties. I wouldn't trust the casualty locations to be accurate to a metre.  If the police recorded the location using old school OS grid references then the location will be +/- 10m.  The detailed casualty report will have a description of the vehicle movements and police assessment of the cause of the collision.  That information isn't available to the public but Hounslow will have access.

Michael Robinson ● 2d

Generally I found drivers courteous at this junction allowing people out when possible. I can’t imagine there was anyone complaining abut the status quo so why all of a sudden this change. I can imagine only see this leading to a lot of road rage and money for someone. This isn’t going to help flow of traffic so why ???

Gerry McCarthy ● 2d

Thanks Michael, didn't know it was so easy!So from beginning of 2017 to end of 2025, the only incidents reported to the police were:One collision on 29/06/19 between a car and bus/coach on Barrowgate Road, close to the junction with SCR. 1 slightly injured car occupant.One (slight) collision on 07/06/24 on Barrowgate Road between 2 cars. 1 slightly injured car occupant.And one collision 40 metres north of the junction on 09/08/24 between 2 cars and a bus/coach rersulting in 2 slightly injured pedestrians and 6 slightly injured bus/coach passengers.Methinks it's not exactly the junction most in need of a yellow box on the grounds of safety or even reduction in congestion.I don't pass that way very often, so I don't have an idea if there was ever much congestion caused by cars blocking the keep clear road markings - there never was on the 30-50 times a year I might end up going that way.

Andrew Jones ● 2d

Casualty stats are easy to access.  They are collected by the police (referred to as STATS19 data) and there are multiple websites that map the police data -see screenshot from TfL website but there are several others.

Michael Robinson ● 2d

oops, sorry, I see you referred to Heathfield Gdns while I was posting about the existing ratrun via Dukes Ave and Barrowgate Rd.

Michael Robinson ● 2d

"It looks like inadvertently a way has been created to jump the queue on SCR by going down Heathfield Gardens and then along Barrowgate Road."This has existed for a long time.  Hounslow did a traffic survey back in 2019 using ANPR cameras positioned at all the side roads in the area bounded by CHR, SCR, the A4 and the W side of Devonshire Rd so it was possible to track the movement of vehicles through the area.Over 90% of vehicles entering Dukes Ave from CHR were driving straight through the area to the A4 or Barrowgate/SCR.  I can't remember the split between the A4 and Barrowgate but will dig out the survey. This route means they avoid 2 sets of traffic lights at CHR/Heathfield Terrace and opposite Chiswick Town Hall.  Going via Barrowgate means they can try and jump a queue on SCR.Of course, this could be addressed by a low traffic neighbourhood treatment for the area.  If through traffic using Dukes Ave was reduced enough, it is possible that signals would no longer be needed at Dukes Ave although there would still be a requirement for pedestrian signals or a zebra to cross CHR.

Michael Robinson ● 2d

>it will be very difficult to get out of Barrowgate Road from that side without getting a fine.If I'm approaching a box junction like this (i.e. drivign  south down sutton court road) and somebody wants to turn right or left out in front of me to also head south it's likely I'll wait for them. I realise not everbody would do this.Then they would wait for space in front of me (over the box jucntion) to open up and turn into it.Give and take. Something that seems lost on many people today with their "must get in front" attitude.

Paul James ● 2d

Going on similar jucntions I bet you only had to stand here five minutes of a morning to see a driver use the pavement to get round somebody on the keep clear.

Paul James ● 2d

I can see your point but in this instance the vehicle turning right from Barrowgate Road will be required to clear the junction box on the northbound lane. I haven't had a look at the new configuration but there may not be enough space for most vehicles to stop between the two junction boxes therefore the driver has no choice but to continue moving forward. Many will assume this is a legal move (and I still am not wholly convinced it isn't in this circumstance). If the vehicle that has blocked its exit from the southbound junction box came from the other side of Barrowgate Road then that is oncoming traffic but what if two vehicles move ahead of you one from SCR and one from Barrowgate Road. Have you committed an illegal manoeuvre? As this is impossibly complicated, I assume that Hounslow won't fine drivers turning right out of Barrowgate Road towards the A4 if they stop in the junction box. If they do, then it will be very difficult to get out of Barrowgate Road from that side without getting a fine.

Francis Rowe ● 2d

Which direction?

Dominik Klimowski ● 2d

We'll see.As someone who doesn't immediately jump onto the "this is part of the ongoing war against motorists" bandwagon, just because there is some new restriction that slightly inconveniences drivers' rights to drive wherever, whenever and at whatever speed they want to, in this instance I really can't see this new yellow box as more than just a nice earner for Hounslow.Unless there are some statistics that back up the claim that this is some sort of accident hot spot.

Andrew Jones ● 2d

If the keep clear box has been working fine, as some people say, then what's the issue with having a box junction?For the record, I have travelled down this road for 40 years.

Dominik Klimowski ● 2d

> The interesting point made in the front page article is now drivers emerging from the west end of Barrowgate Road will now be able to enter the junction box on the southbound lane and block it off ahead of traffic going south and coming in from the other end of Barrowgate RoadDon't think so, you're only allowed to enter and stop a box junction when turning right if prevented by oncoming traffic, not if your right hand exit is blocked.

Paul James ● 2d

>It won't take long for Uber drivers to pick up on this trick and then SatNavs to start making it a recommended route.

Paul James ● 2d

Paul, we all know a camera is there but most drivers would not, so compliance with the yellow box would be high regardless. The Keep Clear area was usually well adhered to. The interesting point made in the front page article is now drivers emerging from the west end of Barrowgate Road will now be able to enter the junction box on the southbound lane and block it off ahead of traffic going south and coming in from the other end of Barrowgate Road. It looks like inadvertently a way has been created to jump the queue on SCR by going down Heathfield Gardens and then along Barrowgate Road. It won't take long for Uber drivers to pick up on this trick and then SatNavs to start making it a recommended route.

Francis Rowe ● 2d

Drove along to have a look. It's designed to maximise PCNs. It's going to be a real earner for whoever collects the fines - sounds like Hounslow looking at the article on the front page.

Davy Jones ● 2d

>Are cameras involved? Was money spent to install them? If so, it's about revenue. End of.There's no point in putting stuff like this in without enforcement though right, although I know the answer from many will be "it shouldn't be there in the first place to need enforcing".An alternative to fines would be to just put points on licenses I guess.

Paul James ● 2d

Dunno, Paul. Are cameras involved? Was money spent to install them? If so, it's about revenue. End of.

David Lesniak ● 2d

I 100% concur Andy - he's also on Instagram and has a site www.yellowboxes.co.cuk .. Well worth a visit as it highlights many cases whEre the boxes and signage is illegal/wrong and also where tickets have been rescinded- he highglights two local cases- one on shepherds bush green with the bus lane and one under the M4 underpass at hammersmith to  fulham palace road where the box is too big/ doesnt serve its purpose and can be challengedEven in this series of posts there so many incorrect hunches, theories and interpretations of their purpose including " they are there to keep traffic moving NOT raising fines " ( spot the council emplyee..)its well worth checking him out for education and hopefully cost-savingIncidentally isnt the M/A4 the Highways AGency /TFL and therefore nothing to do with Hounslow ? "The M4 road in Chiswick is managed by National Highways (formerly known as the Highways Agency), rather than the London Borough of Hounslow or their local contractor, Hounslow Highways.While Hounslow Highways manages most local roads within the borough, major strategic motorways and trunk roads are handled centrally by the national government. In London, responsibilities are divided as follows:National Highways: Operates, maintains, and manages the M4 and M25 motorways.Transport for London (TfL): Manages major arterial A-roads in the area, such as the A4, A406, and A316.

Tim Garfoot ● 2d

The notion that this is about safety and traffic flow rather than revenue collection is somewhat undermined by the changes coming as a complete surprise to the people most affected by it. Such an impactful change should have been put out to consultation and an FoI request might be useful to see the reports on the changes that would have been published in this process.The main problem that I think would have been identified if the council had done this is the Mexican Stand Off that will occur at every phase of the lights between traffic wishing to join the A4 from Barrowgate Road on both sides and traffic going south on Sutton Court Road. As this discussion shows, what is and isn't allowed in yellow junction boxes is complex but drivers are going to believe if they don't get ahead of someone aiming for the same exit point they will get a fine. Collisions seem to be inevitable.

Francis Rowe ● 2d

If the yellow box is where the keep clear markings were then this is going to cause issues for people seeking to turn left from the east end of Barrowgate on to southbound SCR - probably to get to the A4.Currently the risk of accidents for people turning left onto southbound SCR is minimal. The change will make that risk much higher because the car on Barrowgate cannot creep whilst traffic is stopped

Justin Stephenson ● 2d

Can’t say I’ve ever seen any real problems at this location. If the yellow box is where the keep clear road markings were, I imagine it will cause more problems for drivers trying to turn right out of Barrogate Road and head north if Sutton Court Road heading northbound towards the green is already clogged up.

Andrew Jones ● 3d

As Gerry point out, it's been working ok for decades. This is obvious fine and damn motorists. The Green Wokies at Work, again.

Davy Jones ● 3d

The purpose of yellow boxes is not too make money, it's to stop people blocking up junctions.

Paul James ● 3d

Have looked at videos on what's allowed and what's not. They all feature yellow boxes and traffic lights, don't think this is the case here as it's at the Barrowgate road crossroads. Seems oncoming traffic allowance would be for traffic coming the other way down Barrowgate Road east. Now very confused and think next time I do that route, driving up to the roundabout and doubling back will be quicker and safer. Locals could go via Staveley I think - increasing traffic past the schoolIt does seem an obvious money grab from TFL -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22hj-48g7M4

Davy Jones ● 3d

Just to add, if you look up posts by “yellow box guru” on Facebook, there are multiple examples of video evidence supplied by authorities seeking to impose a penalty, and the outcomes of appeals against the PCNs. In plenty of cases the appeals Are upheld by the adjudicator, while in some they are turned down and there is a verbal explanation of each case and why the appeal was upheld or rejected.

Andrew Jones ● 3d

Any tickets issued for yellow box offences have to have video supporting evidence that shows the entry of the vehicle into the yellow box, and evidence that the car actually stopped in the box and wasn't able to fully exit due to the presence of stationary vehicles.If there isn't video evidence showing the lead up to the alleged offence then you just need to tick the "offence didn't occur" box and the council will fold.

Andrew Jones ● 3d

That's my point I think. The council have probably set up the cameras to catch people stopping, but that's not the offence in law.This can be a problem becuase if you enter the box junction when your exit is clear then somebody jumps in front of you and blocks you meaning you have to stop, you didn't commit an offence, as you entered the box junction when your exit was clear.Important stuff.

Paul James ● 3d

Having been using this junction regularly for the last twenty years I found the keep clear sign worked well. Can’t help but feel this is going to generate a lot of income for the council as the previous posts show how complex these boxes are to navigate without getting caught!!!

Gerry McCarthy ● 3d

From the legislation you quoted:"a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles."So you are allowed enter a yellow box (with the intention of carrying straight on), even if there is a car in front of you that has not yet cleared the yellow box, at the point at which you enter the yellow box yourself. This is not an offence. The offence can only occur at the point at which your vehicle stops in the box. If the car ahead of you clears the yellow box and leaves enough road space behind it to allow you to exit completely, no offence has taken place, not even if you do stop your car in the box.A council may try it on e.g. if a vehicle that was to your right or left that wasn't blocking your intended exit subsequently prevents you from fully leaving the yellow box by moving into that road space, and you end up stopping in the box, the council might issue a ticket and you would have to appeal it.But your initial statement"The actual offence for yellow box junctions is entering it when your exit is not clear."is factually incorrect.

Andrew Jones ● 3d

Hmmmm. This might be what council issues fines on as it's easy to spot, but the law is broken if you enter the box junction if you're going to have to stop in it (excepting to turn right).Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see ‘Road markings‘). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.And the law, which is a bit more specific about what might stop you:https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/9/part/7/paragraph/11

Paul James ● 3d

"The actual offence for yellow box junctions is entering it when your exit is not clear."That's not correct Paul, as entering a box junction when your exit from it is blocked is not an offence per se.If you subsequently stop in the box then you may have committed an offence.Tens of thousands of cars enter yellow box junctions every single day before their exit from the box becomes clear, and none of these cars receive PCNs because TWO conditions have to be satisfied before the offence occurs.

Andrew Jones ● 3d

Yellow boxes at junctions like this are totally a side effect of too many cars and too much driving, which in turn causes even more driving as people not using cars to get about are sidelined, some of them taking to cars themselves.

Paul James ● 3d

Can't see how will it hold back straight on traffic - I'd have thought south bound would have the advantage. When a space arises, and as Paul says the exit is clear, won't it be a bit like musical chairs when the music stops - with both straight on and right turners aiming to fill that space as quickly as possible? One would probably be left 'without a chair' but facing a £160 PCN

Davy Jones ● 3d

It looks as if this box will hold back straight-on traffic on the 'main' A4-bound Sutton Court Road and allow turning side traffic from Barrowgate Road to increasingly 'barge in'.Maybe that's the Council's intention - or perhaps it's just a money-making scheme - as I think most drivers were probably happy with the existing give-and-take/free-for all.

Peter Evans ● 3d

The actual offence for yellow box junctions is entering it when your exit is not clear.Please don't take offence, but its quite shocking how many people don't understand them, because it can be very important for not getting a fine or contesting one if you feel it was unfair.

Paul James ● 3d

From TfL "you can stop in a yellow box junction when turning right if you are prevented from turning by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right."

Iris Hill ● 3d

I think the first deals the Liebour party did when they returned to Hounslow House. was to purchase hundreds of gallons of yellow paint & more cameras. Cameras and boxes appearing over night throughout the borough.

Elizabeth Whittington ● 3d

How will cars be able to turn right from Barrowgate in the rush hour? Cllr Croft could drive over from Feltham to give it a try one morning..

Davy Jones ● 4d