Forum Topic

£5,000,000 per annum more in traffic fines

It is hard to blame Hounslow Council for doing this given their shaky finances and I'm sure other councils will be even more avaricious.It does need to be remembered that this way of raising money acts very much like a regressive tax. Of course some will argue if you don't want to pay the fine, don't do the crime but the reality is that even the most cautious driver will get pinged ever now again if they are doing a lot of mileage and are on unfamiliar roads. It would be interesting to know exactly what proportion of these fines go to delivery drivers, trades people and taxi drivers but I wouldn't be shocked if it was over half. These are not wealthy people and fines will take a large chunk out of their disposable income.To raise £5million will require at least 50,000 extra fines. I was concerned to read that tech will play a significant part in boosting this number. Does anyone have knowledge of what form we can expect this new exaction to take?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 5d39 Comments

They could use some of that money to encourage Zipcar or other car clubs to stay instead of charging them such high rates.  Wandsworth is doing that.  Many people find that they only need to use a car occasionally.

Philippa Bond ● 8h

“ David, my response to tailgating is to slow down not speed up. Experience has taught that going faster because someone is too close behind you doesn't work because they speed up too.”Totally agree. When someone tailgates me I always slow down considerably.

Steve Taylor ● 10h

Councils can’t issue tickets for speeding offences can they?Willing to stand corrected if I’m wrong.

Andrew Jones ● 12h

David, my response to tailgating is to slow down not speed up. Experience has taught that going faster because someone is too close behind you doesn't work because they speed up too.On speed limit enforcement, most UK police forces follow the ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) guidance, which recommends: Speed limit + 10% + 2mph to allow for margin of error and other technical issues. However, this is guidance rather than legislation so there is nothing to stop them tightening that up. I would anticipate that as TfL and other local authorities get more involved in speed enforcement they will give the minimum leeway they can get away with. Possibly this will be justified by more sophisticated tech which it will be claimed is more accurate. As far as I aware speed camera enforcement doesn't make up a significant part of the £5mn Hounslow are planning to raise.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 15h

Slowing the speed also helps protect and extend the life of the many more people using it.  The speed is a maximum speed limit and that maximum also depends on the weather conditions when you are using it too!

Philippa Bond ● 16h

>Has it been lowered too make cash?IIRC it was lowered so it didn't fall down due to all the fast heavy motor traffic damaging it... Echos of Hammersmith Bridge, Albert Bridge, Hammersmith Flyover, and if the big fast heavy motor vehicles keep it up without let up, soon to be Kew Bridge, Chiswick Bridge, Hogarth flyover etc...There seems to be a theme here..."The speed limit was reduced in July 2020 from 40mph to 30mph along the entire stretch of the Westway between the A40 Northern roundabout to the west and Marylebone flyover to the east.Slowing the speed helps protect and extend the life of the ageing expansion joints in the road until they can be replaced. This makes it less likely we'll have to close parts of the Westway for unplanned works."https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/a40-westway

Paul James ● 17h

30 mph on a 3 lane carriageway with a hard shoulder is a very low speed limit.I'm sure it used to be 60 mph. Has it been lowered too make cash?

Brian Green ● 17h

>Does no one understand how averages work?Ah, if was an average speed camera that picked you up at an average of 31mph between two points you must have been going MUCH faster than the limit at some point if you were hanging around the limit for much of it.What was the max your speedo read along the route, it wasn't 31 for sure.

Paul James ● 19h

>I'd be really surprised if I received a PCN for doing an indicated 31 mph in my car on the Westway,Yup. If you are doing an indicated 31 you will actually be going at 27-30 (maybe 31 but unlikely) and if you got a ticekt you'd appeal it.Unless the speedo was under-reading, in which case you're not only breaking the speed limit but your speedo is illegally set up.Getting picked up for speeding at 31mph the speedo would have been indicating 33 to 36 at the time.I've driven lots of different cars (I'm a car club member), I've never had one that didn't underread the speed by at least 2mph at 30mph.

Paul James ● 19h

Does no one understand how averages work?You could be going 28mph but if you then go, say, 35 the average would be calculated based upon the distance of the zone. So, again, no room for any evasive maneuver. I now set the limiter to 30 and cross my fingers I don't get blocked in or tailgated. With others also set to 30, we are like robots devoid of thinking or paying attention. When headed east, often I'm trapped in the left lane aiming for the exit that I don't want. Can't change lanes, can't fall back. People should be able to navigate more freely for any number of reasons without a penalty. I don't think needing to accelerate for a few hundred meters to put yourself in a better position should be penalized. I find it particularly odd given when there is a speed camera sign on the M4 you often see people going 70/80 apart from when the speed zone appears and suddenly they go 60mph. No law broken. Surely the logic would be the same.I was traveling west. The zone begins just after the Edgeware Road overpass and ends just before the roundabout by Westfield as you exit the Westway. When headed east, I'm never sure where it begins but it ends by Edgeware..

David Lesniak ● 19h

The Highway Code gets taken into account when there is an accident.  The consequence of not taking it into account when driving or cycling when there are pedestrians crossing or about to cross the road is very likely to create such an accident.  Hopefully most pedestrians being the most vulnerable will be more conscious of the risks and take care - but some are less capable of doing so - and/or jumping out of the way than others, and others have not been taught the Green Cross Code or whatever the latest version is by their parents.Anyway the consequences can be disastrous for ALL involved.

Philippa Bond ● 20h

I keep to 30 but if the ones ahead are travelling faster you do have to keep up then I will go to the 2 over.

Janice Evans ● 20h

As Janice says, the speed indicated on Satnavs has always been slower than the speedometer readings on all my cars so I presume the Satnav speed is accurate as it’s a real speed.

Steve Taylor ● 20h

Some Counties use 10% plus 3% and some use 10% plus 2%. I always drive at 10% plus 2%,  if traffic permits, and I have never had a speeding fine.

Steve Taylor ● 20h

Satnav speed using GPS can be more precise, if you use Satnav, I don't and yes my speedo reads 2 above the actual speed.

Janice Evans ● 20h

Thanks Steve, I found the hierachy of road users you mentioned:https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/introduction#ruleh2and in there it says:Rule H2 - Rule for drivers, motorcyclists, horse drawn vehicles, horse riders and cyclistsAt a junction you should give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road into which or from which you are turning.You MUST give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing, and to pedestrians and cyclists on a parallel crossing (see Rule 195).I also found plenty of information on the internet which included the phrase "drivers turning left or right must give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross the road".However, I couldn't locate this exact wording  "drivers turning left or right MUST give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross the road they are turning into" anywhere in the actual Highway Code itself.It makes me wonder what the actual offence ( if any) is actually being commited if someone is waiting to cross a sideroad and a car turning into that road doesn't give them priority?

Andrew Jones ● 1d

“Pedestrians and the new Highway Code Changes | Enable LawThe Highway Code gives pedestrians priority at junctions: drivers turning left or right must give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross the road they are turning into, and must not turn if it causes a pedestrian or cyclist going straight to stop or swerve. This is part of a 2022 update that introduced a hierarchy of road users, placing pedestrians at the top, meaning drivers should slow down and yield to them when sharing space, especially at crossings or junctions.”

Steve Taylor ● 1d

Car speedometers aren't permitted by law to underead the speed the car is going at. They are permitted to over read.What Paul was alluding to was that if David was genuinely driving at an average of 31 mph, then the average indicated speed on the speedo was likely to be higher than 31 mph.I'd be really surprised if I received a PCN for doing an indicated 31 mph in my car on the Westway, but I'm prepared to take up the challenge David - which direction on the Westway were you driving, and between what two average speed cameras were you clocked at an average speed of 31 mph? I accept that if I don't get a ticket, it doesn't prove anything - I don't know how accurate my speedo is and I suspect David doesn't know how accurate his, but if I do get a ticket, I'll say so on this forum.The vagueness is probably deliberate - if everyone knew that  you were guaranteed not to get a speeding ticket if you were doing under "the speed limit + 10%", a lot more drivers would drive over the speed limit.

Andrew Jones ● 1d

What exactly is the new Right of Way "rule"?Could someone direct me towards the exact text please?Thanks.

Andrew Jones ● 1d

Thought there used to be discrepancy of 10%

Janice Evans ● 1d

Nope, Paul.It is a myth that there is wiggle room when it comes to speeding tickets. I learned that in my speed awareness class. All part of the new profit machine.I'm so please Sarah is so moral and self righteous. The world needs more people disconnected from reality. But that's just my opinion.

David Lesniak ● 1d

>I've gotten a ticket for going 31mph in a 30mph31mph actual recorded speed was an indicated 34 to 36 I imagine.It's a limit, not a guideline.

Paul James ● 2d

“Stop swinging around corners they can't possibly see around and not giving way or even considering being able to give way to pedestrians who have RIGHT OF WAY at junctions - then roll on the fines.”But the ‘new’ fines to be implemented will not be levied against drivers ignoring the new stupid Right of Way rule for pedestrians at junctions. They won’t be installing cameras at every junction.

Steve Taylor ● 2d

Well done Sarah. You are an example to us all. A place awaits you in heaven for living such a blemish free life.

Simon Hayes ● 2d

I don't think I have missed that point actually. My original post was that it was not a tax. It is a penalty for breaking the law and is entirely avoidable by not breaking the law. I didn't mention safety at all in the original post although it is a beneficial side effect.If the government wants to raise revenues by employing more tax inspectors at HMRC at prosecute more tax evasion or environmental health want to raise revenues by prosecuting the water companies more or fly tippers, then that is not a tax (even in HMRC's case) but a penalty for breaking the law. It is possible that cameras can be bought or tax inspectors employed and no wrongdoing found so no revenues are raised. But in both cases, it seems unlikely. HMRC inspectors consistently bring in more fines than their salaries and my observations suggest lots of drivers break the law.It's actually quite an interesting investment proposition - allow people to invest in traffic cameras or tax inspectors in return for a proportion of their earnings. I suspect the investors would also know exactly where to focus them.Yes, a lovely person with a heart rending backstory (a fireman delivering a fridge to a war veteran or whatever you want to come up with) might get a fine for accidentally driving through a sign that says no entry because they didn't understand the sign. But they will then have learned about the sign and shouldn't do it again. An annoying £70 or £150 but it's a one off fine, not a prison sentence. If they are doing it repeatedly, then either they are incapable of remembering the sign and/or have eye problems that means they shouldn't drive OR they are chancing their arm that they won't often get caught.And if I was being chased by a maniacal cement mixer driver and saved my life by going 1mph above the speed limit, I'd think it was 100 quid well spent. If it happened repeatedly, then I would probably wonder why I was being targeted and go to the police although I am open to the possibility there is this plague of cement mixer drivers out there that I have not met while driving yet.I'm not quite sure why logical inference got you to the belief that I think all cars are evil. The only fact I provided was that I've had a driving license for nearly three decades and never got a fine. Perhaps I could have added "and also owned and regularly driven a car" for clarity. Apologies if the lack of that additional detail was very confusing for you.

Sarah Smith ● 2d

Mike Smith.Mansplaining 101.

David Lesniak ● 2d

Since there are so many drivers who are still driving far too fast on our 20 mph roads and still need to learn the NEW Highway Code and stop swinging around corners they can't possibly see around and not giving way or even considering being able to give way to pedestrians who have RIGHT OF WAY at junctions - then roll on the fines.The 20mph needs to be extended to cyclists who also need to know the Rules of the Road - the NEW Highway Code is for them too.  There is no reason why cycles can't have speedometers.  Cyclists have to learn how to SLOW DOWN in areas with pedestrians especially when those are marked that Pedestrians have Priority.  They need to respect red lights and learn what the No Cycling sign looks like. I hope that driving tests will be tightened up as well so that there are fewer people just buying them instead of taking them.

Philippa Bond ● 3d

I'm potty bound Davy, you tell me.

Mark Frost ● 3d

"You appear to have hit an exposed ...Looks like Mark has got over -excited on his potty, again. How will they raise this extra £5 mill?

Davy Jones ● 3d

You appear to have hit an exposed nerve with the Chiswick massive Sarah, keep up the good work.

Mark Frost ● 3d

Sarah, you seem to have missed the point of what Cllr Grewal actually said when unveiling this policy. Hounslow council expect to raise £5million through increased enforcement. It’s nothing to do with improving driving standards or making roads safer, it’s to raise revenue to plug a funding gap. It’s the same principle as whacking unwitting residents with thousand quid fines for misplacing a piece of cardboard.What Grewal or his equally stupid colleagues don’t comprehend is that there’s no guarantee they will get this income, so the outlay on cameras might prove a waste of money. The logical conclusion to enforcing this will be zero fines because everyone is driving perfectly.It’s also worth noting that fine income for traffic offences is ring fenced for transport spending, so can’t be used to cover funding gaps in, say, social care.I get the impression that you might belong to the all cars are evil brigade. Ponder that next time you want to use an Uber to get home after a night out.

Simon Hayes ● 3d

Jeremy, I am well aware of the pressure delivery drivers face from their employers.But nurses or medical professionals or the police are also under great pressure in their jobs and I don't think we would be comfortable with the idea that they should regularly break the law at work as a result of that pressure and face no consequences.Passing and enforcing employment rights laws would more beneficial to society than permitting dangerous driving to blight the roads just because we feel a bit sorry for the driver.

Sarah Smith ● 3d

I'm not sure logic gets you that conclusion. At least not the sort of logical inference that Aristotle or Boole would recognise.If the 50,000 additional fines that apparently need to be levied will be coming largely from families being menaced by a concrete mixed just feet (yes, feet) from their rear bumper for several miles but who can escape this threat to their lives simply by increasing their speed by 1mph, then I would say the police really must do something about this plague of aggressive concrete mixer drivers.

Sarah Smith ● 3d

“ particularly with a man whom we learnt yesterday gave his wife an STD after sleeping with a Russian prostitute.”Did we really learn that yesterday? Have you been presented with absolute, undisputed evidence of that or is it just more catastrophisation by the gutter press?

Steve Taylor ● 3d

I've read and re-read Sarah's post, yet I see no suggestion she inferred it's OK for anyone to be 'threatened by a concrete mixer mere feet (yes, feet) away from your rear bumper for several miles'. This might help you (courtesy of National Highways):What to do if you’re being tailgatedBeing tailgated by another vehicle can make you feel intimidated, scared and bullied. While it may not be intentional by the driver behind, it can feel aggressive and personal.But reacting negatively to tailgaters can create further problems, so it’s important to stay calm and remain in control of your vehicle.Just drive normally: Don’t let the tailgater's poor behaviour negatively influence your own driving. Simply continue to drive safely and cautiously, aware but not affected by their presence.Allow them to overtake: Keep a steady speed so they may overtake.Clearly signal: Ensure the tailgater has a clear idea of your intentions by signalling early.Keep left: Keep in the left-hand lane unless overtaking. Some tailgaters argue that ‘middle-lane hoggers’ cause tailgating. Don’t give tailgaters an excuse.Don’t speed up: Generally, this will encourage the tailgater to speed up behind you. Continue to travel at a safe speed. Do not allow the pressure from the tailgater to influence you to drive unsafely.Don’t slow down: Intentionally slowing down to irritate the close follower or tapping the brake lights can trigger road rage and cause more dangerous scenarios to arise.Don’t stare in the rear-view mirror: It can be tempting to stare at the driver behind but this can cause you to lose focus on what’s in front of you.

Mike Smith ● 3d

By your logic, Sarah, you're saying it's okay for a family of four to be threatened by a concrete mixer mere feet (yes, feet) away from your rear bumper for several miles?As opposed to, say, doing what's needed to get out of harm's way even though that might mean tipping the scale of average speed against you. One mph over the limit is breaking the law? And it can never be getting to a safer place?

David Lesniak ● 3d

I've never been fined either Sarah but I don't do alot of driving. However, I'm pretty sure if I was out on the roads every day in areas that I was unfamiliar with I would have been inadvertently caught out many times. You say that people should read the signs but these can often be complex and confusing and it is more important that drivers keep their eyes on the road.You are not wrong that delivery drivers are often the worst on the road but if you were to have a chat with one you would learn that many have very onerous targets which mean they have to make a certain amount of deliveries in a day. The blame for this should not be with the driver but higher up the food chain particularly with a man whom we learnt yesterday gave his wife an STD after sleeping with a Russian prostitute.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 3d

Am I the only person never to have got a fine or penalty then?27 years of having a driving licence.Just read the signs. It's not hard. Even easier now with automatic speed alerts on cars/sat navs.People chance their arms on road closures that there aren't cameras. They aren't confused. If they are that confused or their eyesight means they can't read signs, their driving licence should be removed.It's not a tax. It's a punishment for breaking the law.If my job depended on having a licence, I would been even more careful but as anyone vaguely observant knows, delivery drivers remain some of the worst drivers on the road so clearly they aren't that bothered by the risk.

Sarah Smith ● 3d

Jeremy, to your point about delivery drivers and frequency, these people run the added risk of losing the license after too many infractions. For what? Going 1mph over the limit???  That's absurd. I travel the Westway every week. With the variable speed limit in place (now being investigated, I know) I've gotten a ticket for going 31mph in a 30mph that used to be a 50mph. Frequently I am being tailgated and trapped on all sides by people using cruise control or whatever its called here. So I have no ability to get myself to a safer position without risking a fine. I don't think that's the intent of the law.

David Lesniak ● 4d