Forum Topic

Footbridge at Chiswick Station

Oh how I wish they were putting in lifts at the same time as these works! So needed! Aldo at Gunnersbury and Kew Bridge stations, and especially at Barnes Bridge!

Petey Rosebar ● 34d38 Comments

"There are people who require additional assistance. They should have it"When should they have it? Right now? Next year? Within how many years?  Do you expect this to be simultaneously implemented in ~2,500 rail stations, ~270 underground stations, ~100 London overground stations plus the other tram/metro systems in London, Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow, etc.It is easy to make sweeping statements but in the real world, there is finite money, resources and time so prioritisation is inevitable.

Michael Robinson ● 23d

The facts are indeed straightforward, Chiswick does seem to be a black hole in terms of accessibility. While you can describe the idea that this is down to political consideration speculative, your own view that station priority for upgrade is driven solely by usage stats doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Kew Bridge would be step free by now if this was the case based on the numbers you supplied earlier.On Turnham Green the off-peak schedule for the Piccadilly line starts to operate on the western stretch of the line at 8:30pm and continues to aim to deliver around 21 trains an hour until 11pm. (Overall network data suggests it is probably 18 or 19 in practice). That means that there are the same amount of trains going through Turnham Green for two hours before they start stopping and it is not accurate to say that the commencement of stopping at 10:30pm is because there are fewer trains on the line at that time. I was on a Piccadilly line train after 10:30pm earlier this week and timed it at just over 5 minutes from Hammersmith departure to Turnham Green departure. As I understand it there are two signalling blocks between Hammersmith and Turnham Green where trains can be held, so more than one train could depart from Hammersmith before the train in front had left Turnham Green. If the gap in the service is three minutes, then under normal circumstances there would be only one train needing to leave Hammersmith before the front train departed TG.Although we have to accept that a full service won't be possible until the signal upgrade takes place (which may never happen), there will be new rail stock arriving sometime in the next few years. This brings both extra capacity and improved braking and acceleration. These are only very marginal improvements compared to what signalling will deliver but that should allow marginal improvements to services to Turnham Green.I'm well aware that generations of politicians from all parties have tried and failed to make progress on this issue. As with step free access this may be, not that improvement of the service is an impossible dream, but rather because they lobby less hard for stations which are on the edge of their constituencies.

Mark Evans ● 23d

No Mark, I end up arguing against fantasies put forward by Francis and others.The facts are straightforward and easy to find out but that needs work, so some people obviously find it easier to invent things and justify them with a few anecdotes.Improved access at Turnham Green is dependent on the new Piccadilly line trains and upgrade of Piccadilly line signalling to permit all-day stopping.  Turnham Green can then be an interchange station and have a much stronger case for improvements. Improved access at Gunnersbury is part of the project to redevelop the buildings on top of the station.  That doesn't mean it is straighforward because the station is owned by Network Rail, operated by TfL and the building owned by a developer and all of them want to minimise how much they will spend.  Also, step-free access doesn't address the biggest issue with Gunnersbury which is the single stairs to the platform but whether plans will address this remains to be seen.Kew Bridge is on the list of stations published by the government a couple of weeks ago with funding provided to develop plans.None of the other stations in Chiswick have high enough passenger numbers to be prioritised above these.The reason why Piccadilly lines stop early in the morning and late in the evening is because there are fewer trains then.  Are you suggesting that TfL withdraw trains earlier and provide a reduced service just so trains can stop at Turnham Green? I'd suggest you do your own research into the number of politicians who have claimed they will do something about trains stopping at Turnham Green.  There have been a lot and  all have failed.  Politicians can't do anything about the reality of running a tube system and the negative consequences stopping at Turnham Green has on the rest of the line, until new trains and signalling will allow it.

Michael Robinson ● 24d

The engineering work required to add lifts to the pedestrian overbridge at Chiswick Station would be far less than that required at Turnham Green, where they would have to tunnel through the embankment to reach the island platforms.

Richard Greenhough ● 24d

Michael, it is notable that you so often end up arguing against public transport improvement in Chiswick. Two points on this issue. A abled bodied colleague lived in the Grove Park area pre-Covid and we worked together near Blackfriars. He didn't use the services from Chiswick station to get to work because he said that they were always full to bursting by the time they arrived.Post pandemic we have lower overall passenger numbers and much greater capacity with the introduction of the Arterio change. Usage patterns take time to change but gradually more people will tend to move to the Grove Park area now that South Western is providing a viable service to commute into town.Secondly, on the 'conspiracy theory' but forward by Francis as to the reasons why Chiswick is an inaccessible town. The facts speak for themselves but I would add that part of the reason is that so many of the local stations are liminal and sit on or close to borough boundaries - Chiswick Park, South  Acton, Turnham Green and Stamford Brook. I think this makes MPs and councillors a bit wary of campaigning too hard for upgrades, whether for improved accessibility or otherwise.On Turnham Green specifically I think there is an opportunity because there seems to have been a shift in attitude to TfL towards the station. They have recently been  keeping it open during District Line engineering works and earlier this week Piccadilly line trains have been stopped during one of the regular District Line signalling failures. It wasn't me that made the request on this occasion but I always make a request to station staff to ask for the Piccadilly line train to stop. In the past the answer has been 'no chance' or grudging compliance but most recently the response was 'what an excellent idea' and annoyance from the staff member when the request was declined.Straws in the wind maybe but I do think that a bit of political pressure could bring about baby step timetabling changes e.g. Piccadilly trains stopping from 9:30pm rather than 10:30pm in the evenings. A barrier to getting any change may be that representation of station users is by both Tory and Lib Dem councillors and two different Labour MPs and they would need to coordinate effectively to make any progress.

Mark Evans ● 24d

Somehow Michael misses the reality that people from all walks of life in every corner of the city require step-free access. Every. Single. Day.

David Lesniak ● 25d

Come off it Francis, your conspiracy theory for lack of step free access is the original straw man here.I am pointing out there is an explanation grounded in reality, not in your imagination.

Michael Robinson ● 25d

I was travelling back from Stratford,East London the other ďay on the Overground "Mildred Line"and when the train arrived at Gunnersbury Station ... I said to myself "sod that staircase" and carried on to Richmond, where there is a lift. I crossed the road and comfortably caught the 65 bus back to Kew Bridge... which was my intended destination.Gunnersbury Station is useless for many of us.

Jim Lawes ● 25d

Michael, once again you set up a straw man to knock him down.The issue here is not that Chiswick station doesn't have step free access but that the whole of Chiswick is without an accessible station. At the moment from Chiswick station if you wanted to get to Westminster without using steps, your choice would be to get the E3 to Acton Town or get the same bus to the High Road and catch a bus to Hammersmith. This would add about 40 minutes journey time each way if clear and up to an hour if there is traffic which there will be if you need to travel at rush hour. That additional journey time would be halved if either Turnham Green or Gunnersbury were step free.What this means is that public transport use is totally impractical for a significant proportion of the population of the area in which we live.

Francis Rowe ● 25d

Station usage is hard data.  Claiming a station with really quite low usage doesn't have step-free access because of your conspiracy theory sounds like a straw man to me.No, I can't suggest a route between Westminster and Grove Park that has step-free access.  There are over 55,000 different origin and destination combinations just for rail stations in London (not including tube, Overgound) and I really wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of those routes don't have step-free access.That's the reality of a transport network that dates back 150 years.  There simply isn't step-free access for all but a small proportion of journeys.That's why there needs to be prioritisation of where access is provided and that's why station usage is a key factor used to prioritise.Claiming that because there isn't step-free access between Grove Park and Westminster means there needs to be step-free access at Chiswick is most definitely a straw man.

Michael Robinson ● 29d

Brian, I'm not sure how one can miss the throngs in Chiswick during the boat race. But it seems you have. Once a year, ten times a year. Accommodating the entire general population on public transit is 24/7.This isn't a tit for tat discussion. I may not be familiar with the details of the laws here, but I'd imagine in 2025 step-free access for public transit is now required by law.Regardless, anyone doubling down attempting to defend the indefensible looks like a fool. There are people who require additional assistance. They should have it. They shouldn't have to map out their journey for the next nearest option which is often no where near where they want or need to go. This is their reality. It simply shouldn't be. If the country can sort out a breast enhancement through the NHS, how is it you all can't sort out step free access for those with physical and/or sensory challenges?

David Lesniak ● 29d

You have wheeled out the straw man again and completely missed the point. Nobody is claiming that Chiswick is a relatively busy station. Let's try this - tell me the route you would take to get to Westminster from Grove Park if you required step free access?

Francis Rowe ● 29d

Come off it Francis, I am the person using facts - the more usage a station has, the more people will benefit from improving access.  You have invented a conspiracy theory.  I'm not surprised - it is what you do - start with your own prejudices then work backwards to invent an argument to justify them.If you want some additional facts, across all rail stations in London, Chiswick is in the bottom 25% of stations for usage (22/23).  Whatever way you look at it, it won't be a high priority.

Michael Robinson ● 29d

Sorry Jim but it is. See picture below. The H28 will get you close to both Isleworth station and step free Osterley Station on London Underground within ten minutes.
I tried to check the journey time between Chiswick station and Acton Town station (the nearest step free station) yesterday and it directed me to get off the E3 (the only bus serving Chiswick station) and it advised getting off a Chiswick Town Hall and walking (for 24 minutes from there). This was for a total journey time of over 40 minutes. Michael is setting up a straw man argument here. Yes the area around Chiswick station is not going to see level of building that other areas will and yes the current usage is less than these other stations. However, if Brentford, Syon Lane, Isleworth and Osterley weren't step free, the users of those stations would have a nearby viable option. The latter three have all been made step free in the last five years. Disabled people living around Chiswick station have no viable option for accessible public transport for most destinations and the situation is little better for those living across the rest of Chiswick. The question remains, why has accessibility provision in this area been consistently provided in areas which already had options for disabled people and not where there were none.

Francis Rowe ● 29d

Syon Lane Station is not on a bus route Francis and it's a decent walk whichever way disabled people decide to approach it.It's lifts are well deserved

Jim Lawes ● 30d

I think most people will get off at Barnes Bridge for the boat race and this is only once a year.

Brian Green ● 30d

- there are no large new housing developmentsDunno, Mike, you've got the Hogarth one not to mention the Bollo Lane towers. Surely some of those folks are gonna wanna take the overground, no?- there are no significant attractions drawing people from outside the area (shops, cinemas, football stadiums..)Gee willikers. You seem to hate Chiswick and what's on offer. Let's have a think...boat race? Anything going on at Chiswick House? Markets? Future festivals?

David Lesniak ● 30d

Syon Lane in particular gets people commuting to Sky and other businesses along the Great West Road as well as locals commuting.  21/22 figures will have been affected by Covid.For 18/19, Chiswick was still the least used station in Hounslow, 26% less than Syon Lane and 18% less than Isleworth.The Tesco / Homebase development means over 2000 new homes in Isleworth.It looks like you have a classic case of Chiswick exceptionalism..  The facts are:- there are no large employers near Chiswick station- there are no large new housing developments- there are no significant attractions drawing people from outside the area (shops, cinemas, football stadiums..)- the local population in Chiswick is flat/declining in comparison to population growth elsewhere in the borough.  This is why the Chiswick wards were redrawn.But according to you, there are no other reasons.

Michael Robinson ● 30d

Simplistically relying on overall station usage to determine which stations get step free access is going to lead to some very flawed outcomes. While it is true that the more people using a station, the more disabled people are likely to be among them, and they would be keen to have their local station upgraded, you have conflated demand with need. Raw station numbers tell you the former but not the latter.You seem determined to make this about Kew Bridge vs Chiswick but the smoking gun on politics driving decisions on this matter is Isleworth and Syon Lane being given priority over both. According the data supplied earlier they have similar usage numbers to Chiswick. Research by Steer Davies Gleave and others suggests that accessibility improvements can lead to 15–25% increases in usage, and this has happened at Isleworth and Syon Lane. In 2021-22, Chiswick was a busier station than Syon Lane and within 150,000 annual visits of Isleworth but they have both since surged ahead.The two stations are within a mile of each other and Syon Lane is within a mile of fully accessible Brentford and both sit on bus routes which will bring people relatively quickly to a step free train or tube station. The need for full accessibility was clearly much less here than at these two stations.What other reason could there be for them being given priority than the effective lobbying by their local political representatives. Ruth Cadbury would have been aware of potential boundary changes and the local ward councillors had more pull being part of the ruling administration.Chiswick (the town not just the station) remains at least five years from getting an accessible station. While there may be fewer disabled people demanding this basic facility than elsewhere, their need is far greater because at the moment they have nothing.

Francis Rowe ● 31d

I can see that some stuff has been done, but I walk past most days, and no sign of any workers so far  ... maybe I've just missed them by chance?

Davey Harris ● 31d

Planning has become incredibly complex and bureaucratic and so things get lost in implementation.  I'm told that Planning should be simplified while Building Control needs to be enhanced and diligent.  Simplifying planning will save time and money for everybody and result in focus on the important planning issues. However stronger and enhanced Building Control is needed to protect the public.At present a Planning Application requires Reports on every single aspect of creating the building before even the principle of allowing it has been agreed.  This makes the process of applying for Planning Permission very expensive and lengthy.  At conclusion a Planning Permission if granted will often be subject to endless Conditions - many of which can be challenged adding to the cost and time.  And the number of them makes it difficult and costly for a Local Authority to check compliance.  The answer is to focus Planning on Planning Issues such as Use, Size, Shape etc.  Leave Compliance with Building Control aspects such as Energy, Sustainability, Construction Methodology etc to an Enhanced Building Control Regime.  This will save Developers and Local Authorities massive amounts of money and shorten the time to certainty of planning acceptability.It seems normal nowadays to spend several million pounds making a substantial Planning Application and to take two or three years to get to a decision point when the application may be arbitrarily refused.  Planning therefore becomes a Developers' lottery.

Philippa Bond ● 32d

Yes, it is easy to quantify the demand from disabled people - the overall station usage. Overall station usage is based upon things like local population, the destinations served by the transport and places close to the station that will attract trips - employment, shops, entertainment venues or other attractions.All of those things apply equally to disabled and non-disabled people so higher station demand means higher demand by disabled people too.That is why Kew Bridge as the most used station on the Hounslow loop line is prioritised higher than Chiswick, the least used station on the line.Gunnersbury has also been identified as needing improvements.Improvements at Turnham Green will be dependent upon Piccadilly line signalling upgrades to permit Picadilly lien stopping at the station.None of Chiswick Park, South Acton, Stamford Brook have sufficient usage to prioritise them higher.

Michael Robinson ● 32d

The needs of disabled people aren't a 'vague unspecified' concept and it is quite easy to quantify it when it comes to public transport. The bus network is designed to ensure that the walking distance to the nearest stop is always below a certain number. All that needs to be done is that this concept of ease of access be extended across all public transport type and that total journey times between the bus network and tube and rail be a deciding factor.It is not as if your method of simply prioritising the stations with the largest usage is actually the way accessibility has been introduced in this borough. Although Kew Bridge is on the list published by the government recently, that brought no more money for making it step free and, even if that is eventually forthcoming, you haven't provided a good explanation as to why it had to wait so long. Kew Bridge, Gunnersbury, Chiswick Park, South Acton, Turnham Green, Stamford Brook all remain inaccessible and it seems to me that the best explanation as to why there is this cluster of stations which many disabled people can't use in this area is that priority is based not on need, not on station usage but on the people in power prioritising their own areas.

Diane Brown ● 32d

I remember it was one of the benefits from the new stadium for all of us. Of course things sometimes change because of officer delegated powers after approval by committee. Quite a lot of those have happened with Ballymore.My particular peeve is that I demanded at committee that the the green wall I had asked for on the horrible self-storage building at Syon Lane/GWR would be provided. The developer said oh yes, we liked that idea and have incorporated it. I reluctantly voted to approve. There was never a green wall and I doubt there was ever any intention to build one.We live and try to learn.

Guy Lambert ● 33d

So looking at numbers of people using the station is "deeply flawed" and instead, some vague, unspecified method that doesn't appear to have any quantified measure should be used instead.The numbers of people using the station is an indication of overall demand and that will apply to people both with and without access issues.Utimately it, doesn't matter what you think as Kew Bridge station is on the list of stations for consideration to have improved access that the government published a few weeks ago. Chiswick isn't.https://www.gov.uk/government/news/green-light-for-over-50-road-and-rail-upgrades-supporting-over-39000-new-homes-and-42000-jobs

Michael Robinson ● 33d

Basing priority simply on station usage numbers is a deeply flawed way to go about this - if you want to cater to the needs of people with disabilities, you should allocate resources to where that need is greatest.The distance between Kew Bridge and Brentford is not that great and anyone with a disability living to the west of Kew Bridge station will already be using the latter.For others for whom Kew Bridge is their local station, they  take the 267 direct into Hammersmith.The way you need to look at this is to think of it from the point of view of a person with mobility issues, you then have to wipe off your map anything which isn't accessible and that leaves you with your transport network. On this basis, Chiswick (not just the area around Chiswick station) is very poorly served.

Diane Brown ● 33d

Guy, the tunnel to the eastbound platform at Kew Bridge is definitely in use during Brentford games as fans are pointed in different directions depending on which platform and even if you haven't been to the game, you need to use the tunnel for the eastbound platform  - they don't allow access over the footbridge at the front. I don't know what times the tunnel opens and closes and why it isn't available other than during games.

Michael Robinson ● 33d

A ridiculous lost opportunity at Kew bridge. There is a tnnel from the station to the eastbound platform (but I'm not sure it is use) I wanted step free access from Kew Bridge road but was told it was impossible until the development by the westbound palatform. I said, OK lets do it as part of the development. But it wasn't. And it seems access to the bin area provided for the rebuilt terrace between the station and the Express was botusable because the trucks couldn't get inuntil the development took place. The development has happened but rubbish is still dumped on the pavement because the bin store is either still inaccessible or has been demolished.

Guy Lambert ● 33d

It is logical that priority is heavily based upon actual usage and forecast future use of a station.This is factual information while Francis's opinions are usually pulled from somewhere in his posterior.What would be your justification for prioritising Chiswick ahead of Kew Bridge, despite the fact more than 400,000 people a year use Kew Bridge than use Chiswick and Kew Bridge usage will be increasing even further with the new developments being built at the moment.

Michael Robinson ● 33d

Is it really the case that the powers that be give less priority to stations that are 'just for local residents'?Even if we have to accept that business users are more important, Brentford, Syon Lane and Isleworth stations are all  relatively close to each other so if any of them hadn't been made accessible, the alternative for someone needing step free access would have required a relatively short bus trip.However if you are close to Chiswick station, it is very difficult to find alternative accessible routes. Some people get the E3 to Acton Town but, even when there is not heavy traffic, this can add a huge amount to journey times.There is a point in 'lumping' all stations together because that is how people use public transport particularly when their options are constrained by personal needs. There has been no strategic thinking to take into account of the needs of disabled people across Chiswick. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Francis is right to suggest that the roll out of accessibility is being driven by parochial political considerations.

Diane Brown ● 33d

Yes, it isn't a like for like comparison.  Chiswick is really just for local residents, there are no large businesses or new developments near the station and the population in the immediate area has been declining,While Isleworth, Syon Lane, Kew Bridge are used by people going to work at Sky, Chiswick Business Park etc. there are new developments close to the stations and the population is increasing.I'd suggest proximity to businesses, new developments and a growing population have a bigger impact upon usage than accessibility.Hardly a surprise if Chiswick is the bottom of the list in comparison to the others, is it?Kew Bridge now does have accessible access to the London-bound platform via the stadium development although not all the time.  So something that can be built upon rather than nothing.There is no pointing lumping underground and rail stations together as the funding is completely different.  Any plans for accessible access at Turnham Green will be dependent upon signalling upgrades to the Piccadilly line which could allow Piccadilly line stopping and a better case for accessible access. Turnham Green is middle ranking in terms of underground station usage (around 130-140th out of ~270 underground stations)

Michael Robinson ● 33d

A few points on these numbers:This isn't a like for like comparison as accessible stations will tend to have more usage that inaccessible ones.The busiest station is in a Chiswick ward and but other stations such as Syon Lane and Isleworth were given priority to be made step free.This is not the first feasibility study to be commissioned on Kew Bridge accessibility and the last one came to naught. There is no timetable for upgrade or indeed any guarantee that it will ever happen.The pattern of Chiswick being at the back of the queue for accessibility upgrades is duplicated on London Overground and London Underground.

Francis Rowe ● 33d

"So basically all the stations in wards which tend to vote Labour have step free access and all the stations in wards that tend to vote Conservative do not."Or perhaps Francis, the Office of Rail and Road 2024 annual station entry and exit data perhaps provides an alternative explanation - Chiswick has the lowest usage of stations on the  line to Hounslow,  by some margin.Barnes Bridge 797,568Brentford 983,680Chiswick 646,328Hounslow 823,164Isleworth 878,392Kew Bridge 1,057,046Syon Lane 806,180Kew Bridge is clearly the station with most need for improved access and in fact was on a recent list announced by the government although that just covers funding for plans, not the actual construction.

Michael Robinson ● 33d

I was referring to the stations under discussion rather than all the stations in the borough. However, even if some stations are not fully accessible in Hounslow town, there are other options which are whereas Chiswick has none.

Francis Rowe ● 33d

I think that Hounslow Station, like Chiswick, requires you to use a road bridge to reach the opposite platforms if you cannot manage the stairs on the station footbridge - not quite the same distance as Chiswick, though. So not "all" the stations in Labour wards have step-free access.

Richard Greenhough ● 33d

So basically all the stations in wards which tend to vote Labour have step free access and all the stations in wards that tend to vote Conservative do not.This politicisation of the process has created a situation where people with serious mobility issues have to go to Acton Town to find an accessible station.

Francis Rowe ● 33d

It's handy that there's a row of shops both sides of the footbridge ... saving the disabled from having to climb up and down this steps when needing local shopping.Going downline ... Kew Bridge has no lifts but Brentford > Isleworth and > Syon Lane do ...thank goodness

Jim Lawes ● 33d

What step-free access?  Good Grief.  It's only 2025!  There have been many Disability Discrimination Acts passed including in 1995.  It's interesting that some stations get them and with others the work which may be a once in a lifetime refurbishment is planned and done without enough of a chance to check whether there is any alternative which could be funded including crowd-funded and incorporated into the design to make the bridge accessible for all. There are also ways now of allowing cycles to be wheeled over these bridges.  There's a nice new cycle friendly bridge at the Battersea Power Station development leading down from the road to the riverside walkway but I don't believe they are even putting these in when they replace bridges.

Philippa Bond ● 34d