Forum Topic

A backward step on EVs

London Councils are claiming that their new guidance on EV charging is a huge step forward i.e. that cross pavement charging should be done in recessed gullies. The reality is that they have removed the ambiguity over whether or not covered leads are allowed. Some councils had already specifically banned them and some had just turned a blind eye but this will now be more difficult.I don't have an EV and am not planning to buy one but I do believe that everything should be done to make them as affordable as possible. This policy seems to be framed on the assumption that EV owners will remain confined to those able and willing to spend large sums on buying a car. Therefore, they seem to believe shelling out £3,000 for a recessed gully is a relatively small amount.London Councils seem to have over egged the risk of cables across pavements which are placed responsibly with suitable covers to avoid trip hazards and are clearly visible. If people are actively prevented from using them they will end up dependent on unreliable lamppost chargers or other third party providers making EV ownership even more expensive and inconvenient particularly in an area like Chiswick which  has a large number of terraced houses with no front drive.

Mark Evans ● 23d43 Comments

why or why do you drive a big fat petrol car?'Perhaps you really enjoy pollution by how much you want to keep fossil fuels going.'

Chris Smith ● 8d

As with most things you write about, you are clearly in the minority. EVs are now out selling petrol cars in London.Not only that but Hybrids are not far behind.Petrol car sales are dropping by over 1,000 sales yoy.Diesel is dropping by almost 50% yoy.More people are choosing Electric or Hybrid than have done before and that number is increasing. Diesel will be first to go, petrol will hang around but become tertiary to EVs and Hybrid. Perhaps you really enjoy pollution by how much you want to keep fossil fuels going.

Dave Mannisa ● 8d

LTNs and displaced traffic are major contributors to pollution in London because we have so many cars and vans in London. Of 2.83 million cars and vans only 167,000 are EVs or hybrid. With current diabolical charging opportunities the EV numbers  won’t  increase substantially. If we had a competent mayor he would recognise his failures and if he was a responsible human being he would cancel all LTNs because petrol and diesel will continue to rule supreme for at least the next decade or even two decades.

Steve Taylor ● 8d

Bet Dave has a big fat petrol car.This new charging thing puts me off getting even a plug-in electric hybrid. Very backward move

Chris Smith ● 8d

Firstly, it doesn't matter when we are going to run out of fossil fuels - they are a huge contributor to global warming so they need to be phased out and replaced by an alternative as soon as possible. The UK still needs to continue to update its infrastructure to accommodate. Fewer fossil fuelled vehicles will result in less pollution, regardless of displaced traffic and LTNs. Secondly, continuing to drill will only destroy more natural habitats and put even more animals and sea life at risk. 

Dave Mannisa ● 9d

And the most polluted schools in London are the most polluted because of LTNs    displacing more traffic  onto arterial roads. Remove LTNs. EVs are fine for Countries which are properly run and have good infrastructure, charging points etc. The UK isn’t one of them and London is a disaster area due to badly run Councils.  The UK isn’t one of the countries seriously trying to deal with climate change so we have to rely on other well run countries to save the planet.  BTW we aren’t going to run out of fossil fuels for hundreds of years. We simply have to continue to drill.

Steve Taylor ● 9d

I don't suppose he's heard of Vanuatu either, can put his finger on the map to show where it is or knows what their recent landmark victory at the ICJ has been.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jul/25/pacific-students-who-won-climate-case-icj-international-court-of-justice-hague#:~:text=A%20global%20campaign%20that%20started,word%20the%20judge%20was%20saying.

Philippa Bond ● 9d

More great logic from the man who can't spell.Keep using fuels that will run out, and which scientists believe not only destroy natural habitats of numerous species, but also play a major role in creating regular temperatures of 40 degrees plus in the south of England by 2050.Great work, Steve. The future is safe in your hands.

Dave Mannisa ● 9d

You get fined for parking in the wrong place whatever you drive and you also get fined for having a vehicle that creates more pollution to add to that that we already have in London.https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/news/most-polluted-schools-in-london

Philippa Bond ● 9d

“one time in order to keep them in the circular economy and not just being dumped these had to be changed at a garage - not sure what is happening now”So much hassle. Why bother especially when London Councils are so disorganised and make charging a major headache and you risk being fined!

Steve Taylor ● 10d

There is also a growing second hand market and you can buy an EV for around £1,000.  You would have to assess any problems as with any second hand car and with EVs I have always understood that the battery can be the most expensive item to check.  At one time in order to keep them in the circular economy and not just being dumped these had to be changed at a garage - not sure what is happening now.https://www.whatcar.com/news/zoopla-to-show-electric-car-charging-information-for-every-home/n27987 There are plenty of articles:https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/advice/charging-electric-vehicles/https://www.whatcar.com/best/top-10-used-electric-cars/n23476

Philippa Bond ● 10d

Chargers at petrol stations aren't really a full solution. It can take an hour to charge up to 80% I don't know if the new cheaper cars will be capable of faster charging but I suspect they won't. Fast charging is also much more expensive and can be three times what home charging is. The bottom line here is that if you don't do everything you can to facilitate home charging in areas like Chiswick were few people have front drives you will see low take up of EVs and an increase in paving over at the front of houses.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 11d

If there is only one charging station nearby then local users will have trouble unless they know each other and can face communicating.  Remember they used to hide behind their newspapers on the trains/tubes and now try and hide behind their mobile phones.  There are now more and more petrol stations which have charging facilities - at last!

Philippa Bond ● 12d

The availability of fuel for ICE users is going to decline. Petrol stations are closing all the time and that trend is likely to continue. However, we are a long way from being in a position where the old technology doesn't provided much more convenience in terms of refuelling. Very recently retail prices of electric cars have fallen below ICE cars in China and, while protected markets in Europe will stop this happening here for some time, it will occur some time in the next decade. At this point, refuelling convenience will be the main barrier to people making the switch in west London.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 12d

I remember 2021 and queueing for 30-45 minutes to get petrol as I was nearly out, and I also remember Streatham High Road being almost blocked because of the long queue to the petrol station that went so far back it blocked all the traffic that just wanted to head towards Croydon and had no interest in getting petrol.But, I suppose that was no more of a major problem than having to spend an extra 30 minutes getting somewhere because Hammersmith Bridge is shut to vehicles. You are right though, it isn't as frequent as I suggested, though I was surprised that the previous nationwide problems were as far back as 2000.There was some localised disruption to fuel supplies in 2012, and it could have been worse.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17545258

Andrew Jones ● 16d

“ except when the public panic buy and the fuel stations run out of fuel - which happens every few years.”Rubbish. It last happened in 2021, which didn’t cause any major problems, and before that it was  2000,1 years earlier!  Other than that, using petrol or diesel is a seamless and stress free experience. Charging EVs seems to cause much confusion and anxiety / stress from what I gather.

Steve Taylor ● 16d

In LBHF there are several operators of lamp post-chargers.The one I use (Ubitricity/Shell) doesn't have dedicated bays - you park your car within cable's reach of the lamp-post, and the same parking restrictions apply as they would to any other vehicle parked there.There are some other operators that have marked out bays, and notices adjacent to the bays that say you have to be charging to park there.I can see that there could be confusion as to whether you need to pay for parking if you stop there and charge. If there's no mention of still having to pay to park ( or have a valid CPZ permit for the zone you're in) I wouldn't be sure of whether I need to pay to park or not.Personally, I wouldn't use a charger that has notices adjacent saying you need to be actively charging either - firstly I have a hybrid and the battery is pretty small compared to an electric car, so it doesn't take that long to charge, and secondly, I wouldn't trust the charger to not stop charging of it's own accord.Petrol and Diesel cars are more convenient to fill up quickly, except when the public panic buy and the fuel stations run out of fuel - which happens every few years.It is still a confusing situation out there, so I'm not surprised plenty of people are wary about the logistics of keeping an electric vehicle charged.

Andrew Jones ● 16d

it all sounds confusing and stressful.

Janice Evans ● 16d

Philippa, you talk about people 'hogging'  charging spaces but fully charging an EV can take over 8 hours and isn't entirely predictable. Jackie presumably put her car on charge with a view to returning the next morning. It may well have completed charging several hours before she returned.What isn't clear at this point is if Hounslow Council are fining EV owners parking in their own CPZ who overstay in a charging bay. If that is the case, the 'hogging' that you identify is being tackled but it does mean that EV users will have to regularly monitor their parked vehicle to ensure that it isn't fully charged.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 16d

I agree. Seems like more trouble than they’re worth. Such a hassle to ‘refuel’.

Steve Taylor ● 16d

So you also have to be careful where you charge your car, goodness why would anyone want an EVs

Janice Evans ● 16d

Jackie  I agree with you about the lack of clarity and consistency on charging policies - which was why I asked the question.We should be being encouraged to move from petrol and diesel to electric cars but we do need enough chargers to do that.  However we also don't want anyone 'hogging' an electric charger when there are others needing a charge and no or not enough chargers in their street OR using that space just because there is not enough parking in that street.  There are plenty of streets with more car owners than parking spaces and it is made clear there is no guarantee when you buy a CPZ permit that you will find a parking space.  It is about somehow finding the best solutions.

Philippa Bond ● 17d

Just to repeat the circumstances.I was charging the car - actually properly charging the car at a charging point in a specific EV demarcated space. It was a dark Saturday evening and I thought I had the right to be there.  But it turned out - that as my car wasn't registered in that particular CPZ - (my CPZ - MC) doesn't have any lamp post chargers at all (go figure), my car wasn't allowed to be parked at that particular time.  If I had been in the next street, I would have been just fine. At that time very few cars were parked. So yes, I got it wrong, but many other Boroughs (H&F for one) are more flexible with their charging policies.  It just shows to me some rather muddled thinking with so many aspects of Hounslow's CPZ policy. And it just means I rarely charge at Hounslow lamp posts now - I just prefer private forecourts with clearer policies and faster charging.

Jackie Elton ● 17d

Yes, that’s very true.

Steve Taylor ● 17d

But more expensive per mile, especially if you are home charging, and have a high mileage.What's best for you Steve doesn't mean it's best for everyone else.

Andrew Jones ● 17d

Easier to park wherever you want to and fill up with petrol or diesel at a filling station of your choice.  No hassle, no angst. Simple.

Steve Taylor ● 17d

Those using EVs for driving jobs have to charge them overnight so outside their home would have to be clear by early evening.

Janice Evans ● 17d

Well that's not true Steve.  It is just that it is most definitely easiest and cheapest when you have a drive you can park on where you can charge your car - especially if you regularly commute by car.You then need to have other places where you can charge when you are out and about and what is most important about this is that they are not out of order.  There was a time when a lot of these were out of order and I would be interested to know that this is no longer the case.  These are more expensive than home charging with a big difference in VAT rate.It is important for those that have or are thinking of having these cars to be able to charge them when they are out at work as well as at or near home on their return. EVs are increasing in number and there is now also a growing second hand market. I have heard of carers who travel from home to home looking after their elderly and sick recipients of this service that it can be difficult to find a charging station in some localities.  These are not well paid people with expensive cars so having easy access to charging is even more important for them.It shows how important it is to have more on street chargers and why this new sort of charger is of interest - if you can  afford it - but is this actually the best solution for a community?  Or will we find that there are streets where EV owners with a gutter charger start putting cones out on the street to stop others from parking near it in case they need it to use it?  Tell me it won't be! 

Philippa Bond ● 17d

What is very clear from these posts is the lack of clarity on where or when to charge EVs without incurring extra costs. It seems that owning an EV is simply not worth all the angst and hassle.

Steve Taylor ● 17d

I've re-read Jackie's post - it's not clear what the ticket was for e.g. was it for being in a CPZ without paid for parking in the hours of operation, or was it for being attached to a on street charger but not actually charging your vehicle, or perhaps something else.

Andrew Jones ● 17d

Phillipa, Jackie explained the circumstances of her fine, you should reread her post.The shared system that you are advocating clearly isn't working well. Some EV owners don't have access to on street charging in their own CPZs. Those that do have to monitor charge progress to avoid a risk of being fined for overstaying which discourages use. Walk through any CPZ at the moment and you will notice the charging bays unused.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 17d

Were you fined because you were in the wrong CPZ?  Or just overstaying - when another busy EV user might be looking for a charge?Pavement parking space has to be shared and my concern is that these may create a less of a shared pavement space.  I remember hearing how it could be difficult to park in a hospital unless you had an EV and got that single space as parking otherwise was so restricted.There have been so many complaints about public chargers that don't work - is this better?  This is why (and the cost) that people choose to run cables they shouldn't over the pavement. With no parking permits visible now you can't even be sure if an unrecognised car parked in your road is locally connected. i can see how this will empower those who haven't a nearby public charger -why aren't there more - is it just funding - but is this the best option for the community?

Philippa Bond ● 18d

I did unfortunately get fined for charging my EV from a lamp post - on a dark night after 5.30 pm on a side road during the Christmas break.  I was rushing so didn't check as carefully as I should have done. Very few cars parked. I just paid up but it shows the muddled thinking. My Chiswick CPZ happens currently to have minimal charging facilities (no lamp posts at all) so I didn't have many options - I have to charge in other CPZs or use commercial options. The rules are just so confusing and contradictory. As an EV car owner you have to be on constant alert.

Jackie Elton ● 18d

A couple of points to add.Firstly Philippa suggested that there should be fines for EV's charging at lampposts if they remain beyond charging. This is already how the systems operates in Hounslow but I don't know if it is being actively enforced.Secondly, I think the lack of a guaranteed parking space is overstated as a problem. EV owners on my street will ask (politely) for their neighbours to move if they need to get a charge and everyone is happy to oblige if there is a nearby alternative space. EV's don't need to be charged every day so an owner can grab the space outside their house when it becomes available and top up then.As has already been mentioned in this thread, most EV owners currently are not that cost conscious so charging rates are not that material to them but if ownership is going to become more widespread you will have more people for whom it really matters how much they pay to charge particularly if they need to use their vehicle as part of their job.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 18d

Where it is a shared by all EV street charger those in the street can contact each other by whatsapp in order to share.  This problem only occurs when there are no driveways.  If you have PVs on your roof then you can charge your car using those.

Philippa Bond ● 20d

Yet another country wide shambles. Lets all switch to electric cars. Oh dear not enough electricity to charge them and no chargers to charge them.Please don't mention the water companies, sorry pollution companies.

Chris Dakers ● 21d

Wasn't it mooted recently about some sort of induction charging, built into the road so the car charged whilst being driven.

Mark Frost ● 21d

Philippa makes a really good point ... it's all well and good having a gully that you can lay your charging cable in, to avoid creating a trip hazard, but unless you know you will be able to park your vehicle close to the gully every time you want to charge it, it's pretty pointless forking out £3000 for something you have no guarantees you can make use of.

Andrew Jones ● 21d

Many homes and offices need better and greater electrical supplies already right now but the National Grid isn't up to it and the waits can be long.  There are a lot of different entities involved in the process and that isn't counting all the different companies that you have a choice of signing up to to provide the electricity.Will this mean we will each be buying our own piece of pavement because I can see even further pavement and parking wars ensuing?  Surely a shared system is better which everyone has a chance of using?  There must be a way of making sure the companies who own these charging systems are made to ensure they are in working condition and that there isn't such a difference in VAT.  Perhaps there should be fines for greatly overstaying your charging time - or a ban from using them.It would be interesting to see the swinging arm setups as I've seen cables strung through trees before.

Philippa Bond ● 21d

You can also get purpose built swinging arms that dangle your charging cable out over the pavement to reach your car.  No trip hazard, but they also need permission from the council.Meanwhile, charging remains a problem for blocks of flat, unless festoons of extension cables are allowed to dangle out of the windows or over the balconies! And in a block of garages there might be a 40w light socket but not enough power to safely support a 3kW car being plugged in.

Peter Evans ● 22d

Whatever happened to the jetpack.

Mark Frost ● 23d

The £3,000 charge is probably realistic as much of the cost will be made up of getting the necessary permissions. If the gullies do start to be installed in large numbers then labour costs will also rise. There probably are other costs to take into account such as maintenance, guarantees and potential liability.

Mark Evans ● 23d

As a hybrid car owner, I feel the muddle over the switch to non petrol/diesel cars is doomed to failure. We can't seem to get anything right in this country any more. If you charge at home then the VAT rate is 5% but use a roadside charger and it shoots up to 20% plus the provider takes a profit too. To me a charge of £3,000 means that someone else is taking a big profit for a relatively small amount of work. Any other hybrid/ev owners agree?

Peter King ● 23d