Forum Topic

Early prison release

Hold up,they released some that should have not been released. Good luck finding them. But dont worry everyone,starmer was Director of Public Prosecutions so i can safely say before he does that they will soon be back behind bars

Julian Pavey ● 24d52 Comments

And that’s exactly why Labour cannot be trusted with the country’s finances. They steal from the poor to pacify the rich and pump billions in to prop up the failures of the rich. Next - cue Thames Water and see how this government will allow Thames to increase bills radically.

Steve Taylor ● 19d

Yep, yep, yep. That’s exactly why I called Robert a liar. But back to the issue of Labour bailing out RBS with our money and not prosecuting the bank directors. Strange that the Federal Reserve didn’t bail out Lehman Brothers. “Ah, folk tell me, but if we’d not bailed out the banks, things would have been even worse!” Says who? Some economists. Not orthodox economic theory — as so often, it’s economists not economics saying these things.So lots of economists, particularly of banks with a vested stake in what policy is adopted, told us that if we didn’t go with their preferred policy there would be immediate economic disaster. Does something about that sound familiar?Is there any situation we might point to where we didn’t go with what the conflict-of-interest doomsaying bank economists told us we had to do, so we can get a view on whether they might be right in such cases? Ah yes: we voted to leave the EU.One key implication of the performance of the economy since the Brexit vote seems to me to be that folk should abandon whatever residual credibility they were giving to the claims of bank-employed economists about how terrible it would have been if the banks hadn’t been bailed out in 2008 and 2009.Bailing out the banks has not been justified by subsequent events which showed that markets were significantly under-valuing them at the time. And subsequent events do not suggest we should have placed great faith in the claims of bank economists about how bad the economic effects of not bailing out those banks would have been.Here’s the key lesson: next time (and there will be a next time), listen to the lessons of economics, not the doom-saying of conflicted economists.”

Steve Taylor ● 20d

From Prospect magazine, April 2022:"The difference between a lie and an untruth is simple. A lie is not just an untrue statement but one that is made knowing it is untrue, with the intention of deceiving others, often by covering up wrongdoings."We should hesitate to call someone a liar because we are not privy to other people’s motives or states of mind. That a statement is untrue can usually be established beyond reasonable doubt; that the person who said it knew it was untrue is harder to establish."Read it, before you make wild allegations.

Robert Fish ● 20d

I call out all politicians who have accepted any gifts and services that are obviously excessive and would bar any gift from being worth more than £500,which would have to be declared and ok'd first before acceptance.

Keith Iddon ● 20d

Yes, Robert Fish is wrong as usual. He is too blinded by party loyalty to think logically or to analyse data and facts. Plus he lies to others so undoubtedly lies to himself to satisfy his political obsessions / fantasies. Shame, poor old bloke.

Steve Taylor ● 20d

Posted in connection with Robert Fish's submission.

David Burke ● 20d

Greenspan was already a retired hasbeen and we all know about the controversy of ‘The Greenspan put’ “the claim that the government was justified in taking over RBS because of some market failure, and that its doing so would enhance economic efficiency, can be seen with the benefit of hindsight to be as bogus as it obviously was at the time.Another set of recent events that shines a light upon the bank bailouts has rather slipped under the radar. One of the other big claims about the bank bailouts was that they were necessary in order to avoid economic disaster. The chutzpah of the self-interest of that claim somehow passed most comment by at the time.From the mid-1970s to 1990s economists told us that when shipbuilders, car companies, steel works, coal mines and the like shut down, that was necessary for economic efficiency, even when it resulted in systemic damage to whole regions, with other connected firms and industries shutting down across large parts of the North-East, South Wales, Scotland and the Midlands and unemployment elevated for decades.In those cases, that was the market, and in the long-term the economy and society as a whole would benefit. Quite so – they were right then.But in 2008, it wasn’t folk with regional accents in dirty overalls and young people’s future employment hopes that would be affected, far away from the Metropolis. Instead, London bankers in suits and rich elderly depositors in failed banks were the ones who might lose money. Suddenly, the economists who — by a total coincidence — worked for the banks concerned, miraculously discovered that systemic risk was impossible for society to tolerate and allowing market forces to work would be an economic and social catastrophe.Well, as we know, this nakedly self-interested tale carried the day. Did bailing out the banks avoid a huge recession? No. In the UK we had the worst recession since the 1920s. In Spain and Greece unemployment went above 25 per cent and the West has seen its first sovereign default in generations. The bank bailouts failed that economic test.”

Steve Taylor ● 20d

Yes, it takes some believing doesn't it bearing in mind Alan Greenspan the chairman of the US Federal Reserve stated that Gordon Brown had "saved the World's finances"

David Burke ● 20d

Robert hasn’t mentioned it because he can’t. He has no idea what allowances were made but he thinks it’s pertinent to assert that allowances were made. It’s called deflection. He also can’t stomach the fact / comprehend the fact / understand the fact that the Tories had to spend billions to deal with Pandemic and the Energy crisis. They didn’t really have to pump billions into Ukraine but Boris was the first leader in the world to offer and give support and I don’t think any decent person  would criticise him for that. The RBS bailout to the extent of the billions of taxpayer money doled out, was a Labour Party choice and wasn’t thought through by Alistair Darling who, second  to Kwarteng, has been the worst chancellor in living memory. The taxpayer didn’t need to bail out RBS despite what Robert may think. It was another Labour blunder and the fools didn’t even hold anyone accountable. Everyone should involved got off scot-free due to Labour’s incompetence, complacency and cavalier attitude with our money. In the USA the villains would have been incarcerated and, suffice to say, the world didn’t collapse because Lehman wasn’t bailed out. Labour failed us miserably.

Steve Taylor ● 20d

Of course robert,of course Silly me

Julian Pavey ● 21d

No, I didn't purposely avoid mentioning it. I simply couldn't believe that any sensible person would contest the wisdom of the bank bail out.

Robert Fish ● 21d

“ After allowance is made for the financial crisis and the pandemic/Ukraine war,”Roberts makes no mention of the amount of the allowance and he also purposely and dishonestly avoids the fact that the Conservatives inherited the fallout from Labour buying into RBS which cost taxpayers £billions. Only the Conservatives managed to reduce the taxpayers shareholding of the Bank with due diligence and effective financial management of the Bank.

Steve Taylor ● 21d

Did you check the date of the FullFact comment, Julian? It's far from a complete answer, as their analysis ends three years before COVID. You're comparing a period during which the Labour administration incurred significant expenditure mitigating the financial crisis with a period of Conservative government which had no similar crisis. Apples and pears!

Robert Fish ● 21d

Robert, also Covid and the War costs continue with support for the war and vaccines etc., so we must always take that into account.

Janice Evans ● 21d

Thank you Julian.

Janice Evans ● 21d

Here is your answers https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

Julian Pavey ● 21d

Janice, I agree with you. But Steve thinks the accumulation of debt dealing with the financial crisis was inexcusable irresponsibility. His partisanship won't allow him to make allowances for Labour.Of course the expenditure bailing out the banks was considerably less than was necessitated by COVID and the war, but outside these two crisis periods public debt scarcely grew under Labour.  Under the Tories it increased considerably year on year.

Robert Fish ● 21d

That is a rough figure, I took the lowest so was probable much more.

Janice Evans ● 21d

Only Covid and the war cost about 80 billion more than bailing out the banks.

Janice Evans ● 21d

There is no difference Robert they were all unavoidable debts.

Janice Evans ● 21d

But you're comparing a fiscal deficit with unfunded spending. That's not a black hole, created with intention to deceive about the government's finances.Yes, your post was dishonest. You claimed that Labour was responsible for the financial crisis, and that they are criticising the Tories for being unable to fully clean up the mess they left. There is nothing in the history of public debt in the last 27 years which supports your contention - quite the reverse! After allowance is made for the financial crisis and the pandemic/Ukraine war, it can be clearly seen that public debt scarcely grew under Labour, but before the pandemic and the war it grew steadily under the Tories, despite their swingeing cuts in public services.

Robert Fish ● 21d

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/21/gordon-brown-saved-banks

Philippa Bond ● 21d

That was the WORLD banking crisis!  It didn't start here and the Govt  had to prop up the banks.

Philippa Bond ● 21d

Robert has totally misunderstood my post. Nothing dishonest about it at all. I was referring to the £158billion BLACK HOLE which the Conservatives inherited from labour in 2010. These are facts.

Steve Taylor ● 22d

Juliun, you’re such a laugh.

Stewart Jones ● 22d

The question isn't how many Magistrate's courts there were,but how many ankle tags there were.

Keith Iddon ● 22d

Oh boyWell i got to the first line anyway"Total public sector net debt in 2010 was £1350bn" Answer,NO....public sector net debt in 2010 was 70.3% of GDP Do the maths and dont bother reading any more of roberts post,it will save you a weekend😁

Julian Pavey ● 22d

Steve, you are either sadly mistaken or deliberately dishonest in your presentation of data. Where do you get your data for public debt? Total public sector net debt in 2010 was £1350bn, up from £768bn before the financial crisis. The financial crisis was not created by the Labour government, as you so dishonestly allege. It started as a result of the junk loans problem in the US, and was triggered by the collapse of Lehman Brothers. The sudden rise in UK indebtedness, which for most of the Labour government's time in office was well under control, was a direct result of the operation to bail out UK banks, as you ought, but appear not, to know. Under the Conservatives net debt rose inexorably, up to £1887.9bn in 2017, and in 2021 there was a big leap to £2044.1bn, with further leaps in 2022, 2023 and this year - largely attributable to Covid and the war in Ukraine. Basically Labour was keeping net debt well under control before the financial crisis, in marked contrast to the Conservatives, who had already allowed net debt to burgeon in the 10 years of their administration before the pandemic. If you look at net public debt as a percentage of GDP the Conservative record looks even worse (especially since reducing public debt as a percentage of GDP was the avowed (but clearly dishonest) aim of austerity. In 1997 net public debt was 37.4% of GDP. Labour kept it below this level for all the period through to 2007. It was only in 2008 that it rose to 47.9%, then to 61% in 2009 and 70.3% in 2010. However, when the financial crisis was by now well overcome, it continued to rise steeply under the Conservative government, to 98.7%, before the effects of the pandemic were felt. Clearly the pandemic and the war contributed to the enormous increase in public debt from 2020 on, but it is impossible to ignore the Conservatives' inability to contain it in the preceding 10 years. The idea that the Tories had to "clean up the mess" made by Labour is a travesty of the truth.No more of your dishonest claims, please! If you want to question the data, it's all available from the ONS. See: https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf

Robert Fish ● 22d

When Labour was thrown out in 2010 they left a financial black hole of £158 billion which the Tories spent 15 years wrestling with, trying to bring government spending under control. This £22billion black hole which Labour are using as an excuse to hike up your taxes and cut pensioners payments is the remnants of a financial crisis that they themselves created. They are criticising the Tories for being unable to fully clean up the mess that they themselves made in the first place. It’s hypocrisy of the highest order and they’re fooling nobody!

Steve Taylor ● 22d

And if Hospitals ar sold off then I think profits should be used here as we paid for them.

Janice Evans ● 22d

The Courts were underused, Keir has. Spoken of selling off underusedhospitals which I actually agree with if he don't undersell.  Robert is Wales in any better state than here, I know it's early days but wish they would stopblaming others.  They are making these decisions not the Tories.

Janice Evans ● 22d

If you think you can pin closures on the Labour adminstration in Wales, you are barking up the wrong tree. The justice system in Wales is not devolved.

Robert Fish ● 22d

Courts have closed in England and Wales who is in charge in Wales.

Janice Evans ● 22d

No 'wriggling' here, had the Tories not completely let the justice system collapse we wouldn't now be in this position. Think how many Magistrate's courts have disappeared and the effects that is having at the start of the system. What bright suggestions did anyone else come up with? Desperate times call for desperate measures, would you have rather those racist thugs and morons were left to wreak even more damage? As Nadim Zahawi said on QT - politicians are human beings and sometimes get it wrong, only with the Tories they always got it wrong and with more dire consequences for us.

Vanessa Smith ● 22d

Robert, how many times did Cameron say that, we get this day after day excuses for everything they do. It's doing them no favours either.

Janice Evans ● 22d

And it looks like there may be more austerity on the way.I am not sure if it's important who is in power,we always seem to end up skint after they are booted out and with public services still teetering on the brink.It's just how we end up in the same place that is different.

Keith Iddon ● 22d

Janice, Labour is only doing what Cameron's government did. They banged on about the public debt bequeathed by the previous Labour government, purely as a pretext for George Osborne's austerity policy.  And that was responsible for the fine mess we're in. Please don't make excuses on the basis of Covid and the Ukraine war, etc. Those factors only exaggerated the contraction of the economy caused by austerity.

Robert Fish ● 22d

No, it's a ridiculous way of carrying on keep blaming others I expected better.

Janice Evans ● 22d

I wonder why you are wriggling about trying to make excuses for rank incompetence Vanessa.They have made a poor and ill advised  decision and now people like you are justifying their stupidity.I am not denying that the Tories made a mess,but this just compounds it.They should have checked,their primary job is to keep ALL citizens as safe as possible.

Keith Iddon ● 22d

The fact is that it was Chris Grayling who privatised the Probation Service - and wasn't that a roaring success? NOT! This current situation is exactly what a fully staffed professional service is crying out for. It is taking a long time to put things back together again and it is only the Tories to blame.

Vanessa Smith ● 22d

I don't think keep blaming another government for all the decisions they make it going to excuse them in any way.  There was never any funds left whenever Conservatives took over from Labour but I don't remember themblaming Labour for every single decision they made.

Janice Evans ● 22d

I am not a believer in privatising public services either,Vanessa.But you can't put the blame on the contractor here in my opinion.Government has decided to release 1700 odd prisoners all of a sudden,and bearing in mind the numbers of prisoners who were already scheduled to be released,I am not surprised that there were not enough tags in stock.No one had checked first,schoolboy error.

Keith Iddon ● 23d

There may well have been elements of incompetence in the management of the prisoner release scheme but the dreadful state of our understaffed and overcrowded prisons which necessitated the release is entirely the legacy of the last government.  That is the more significant area of incompetence and we shouldn’t forget that.

Alastair Banton ● 23d

It would not take a lot of initiative to first find out how many ankle tags were available.I don't call using common sense 'micromanaging'.

Keith Iddon ● 23d

I disagree - I can't think of many (any?) outsourcing plan that's been successful. It always seems to cost more money and profit of course is the first consideration- not providing a service. (See water/utility/train companies etc.) As for our once excellent Probation Service - totally ballsed-up by the moron Grayling. Employees mostly always paid at the lowest level possible and treated badly. Anyway, it's early days for this government, unless Ministers are expected to micromanage everything, which is just plain barmy.

Vanessa Smith ● 23d

What a bunch of miserable moaning Minnie's on this thread. All delighting in any error of the new government and clearly desperate for it to fail. You may have a long wait.

Robert Fish ● 23d

I don't see that it's important that their supply was outsourced.The number of tags in stock should have been checked first and the appropriate number of prisoners released until more tags were available.It's not rocket science.

Keith Iddon ● 23d

It doesn’t matter if a separate company was involved. Yvette Cooper has to take full responsibility - but she won’t -  she’ll adopt the same sickening blame game policy she’s used for the last 14 years when she was in opposition.

Steve Taylor ● 23d

It is alleged a separate company was involved with tags.

Nicholas Beard ● 23d

I fear incompetence is going to be the theme of this government given how they have started

Jayne Thorburn ● 24d

Just like when some prisoners were released with out ankle tags.One might hope that Cooper would have checked that there were enough to go around before the knee jerk reaction to having no room at the inn for rioters,most of whom have probably never broken the law before.

Keith Iddon ● 24d

Unbelievable level of incompetence.

Keith Iddon ● 24d