Forum Topic

Could the Hounslow Loop be given to TfL?

Reading about the planned nationalisation of South Western Railway it occurred to me that this might be a good opportunity to bring the suburban part of that network under the control of TfL making it part of London Overground.This could lead to a significant reduction in ticket prices and a more joined up service.I'm sure rail nerds out there will provide good reasons why this isn't that easy to do but there would be significant benefits for Chiswick and Brentford.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 208d23 Comments

I started this thread under the impression that the SWR fares were higher but doubted myself when Richard posted that they were the same. The evidence you provide is conclusive. Presumably there would also be a saving on annual and monthly travel cards if they opted to standardise fares.The issue then might be overcrowding but hopefully TfL would be better positioned to increase capacity on the service as it did with the Overground.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 206d

Surely there is no doubt that I am right, Jeremy ;)You can look it up for yourself on the TfL fare finder.https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finderUsing Richmond as an example as it has both underground and SWR.Underground to Waterloo: £4.40 peak, £3.20 off-peak.SWR to Waterloo: £5.10 peak, £3.80 off-peak.Of course, it isn't really a like-for-like as SWR from Richmond to Waterloo only takes about 20 mins and is direct while the underground takes about 50 mins and a change of lines.

Michael Robinson ● 206d

Perhaps we could call a halt to the juvenile name calling and resolve the question as to whether Michael or Richard is right about the fare differential between TfL and SWR?

Jeremy Parkinson ● 206d

"I see nothing except blinkered prejudice."As text book an example of projection as you could ask for.

Mark Evans ● 206d

I ask again Boggy, what singled you out as the best candidate to represent the LCC in Hounslow?I see nothing except blinkered prejudice.

N V Brooks ● 206d

You see, Rancid, you think everyone owning a car uses it all the time. Pretty dim supposition from you yet again.Those drivers you moan about there probably cycle in their spare time. I even know a couple who live in Chiswick. They might even be acquaintances of yours. You have no idea what most people do or why they do it, just shovel out your prejudices as fact. Pretty rancid.

Simon Hayes ● 206d

Thoughts and prayers to the drivers of £50k+ w@nkpanzers who simply can't afford a tube fare.

Michael Robinson ● 206d

Improving public transport and making it affordable for all is a no-brained in London. Even the no brain cycle lobbyists should understand that.

Simon Hayes ● 206d

Following your logic, it would be OK if (test) train operators (of which there's a handful) were paid less than airline pilots and doctors? Personally, I think it would be better to look at the latter's renumeration. It's a very lazy argument and is often dragged out, ordinarily with a clickbait headline.

Mike Smith ● 206d

The prices don't appear to be the same, however. https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finderSW Railway: single from Kew Bridge (zone 3) to Waterloo (zone 1) - peak £6.30, off-peak £5.30Underground: single from Gunnersbury (zone 3) to Waterloo (zone 1) - peak £3.70, off-peak £3.00.

Michael Robinson ● 207d

In that the Hounslow Loop is within the London zoning area, then all travel costs should be exactly the same from zone to zone as they are on the Underground, or for that matter on the Overground, using an Oystercard. It is only once you go past Feltham that you leave the zoning area, and that is well after the end of the Hounslow Loop.There are some anomalies - when Southern were on strike and I had to go to Victoria via Vauxhall and the Victoria Line rather than my usual route from Clapham Junction, I was surprised to find that I was charged more to reach Victoria underground station by that route than to Victoria mainline by my normal route - but mostly the zonal fares should be consistent, so anyone hoping that nationalising SWR would bring down fares on the Hounslow Loop is likely to be disappointed.

Richard Greenhough ● 207d

There are a lot of unsupported claims being made her about TfL staff being overpaid but I've yet to see any convincing evidence that this is the case. There will always be examples of individuals in large corporations who have a salary which is way beyond their competence but that is the nature of the beast and is a feature of the private sector too.The number of people on six figure salaries at TfL is often wheeled out but, once again, I've never seen any convincing data that this isn't largely down to the need to employ skilled personnel (engineers, accountants, software engineers) and the necessity of paying them the market rate in London.This is all, in any case, a distraction to the original point as all that really matters in terms of organisational suitability is the comparison with South Western Railway which are the two options to run the Hounslow Loop.It is good to hear from Mike Smith that this might be practical and anything that brings down travel costs has to be welcomed. It may be that to get this to work the government has to convince international markets that increased borrowing by TfL and GB Railways is not an addition to the national debt allowing an accelerated programme of investment in the network.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 207d

The £24m might be ‘small change’ but it’s indicative of the skewed priorities and wastefulness of those running TfL. It was the same under previous Mayors, with vanity schemes like the tram and the garden bridge.You see, Mike Smith, when we live in a society where the government tell us there’s not much money for things every penny counts. Use it wisely.

Simon Hayes ● 207d

Yes they are. Integrated, that's a joke right? Take a look at comparable salaries in other UTAs

N V Brooks ● 207d

TfL staff are grossly overpaid and have over generous pension scheme. They aren’t underfunded, they are mismanaged. And yes, many train drivers are obscenely overpaid to the extreme. How can they justify paying some train drivers more than airline pilots and doctors?

Steve Taylor ● 207d

You're one for a race to the bottom, right? Tell me, what would you pay people to run one of the world's biggest integrated transport system? It's a lazy view, and you'll be saying train drivers are overpaid next.

Mike Smith ● 207d

1317 staff on £100,000+What do they all do for that money?

N V Brooks ● 207d

£24 million? That's small change. Take a look at other capital cities' fare-box ratio then come back and say TfL are not underfunded. Fancy that...

Mike Smith ● 207d

Underfunded? Sadiq khan found £24 million from somewhere to put in a cut price fares initiative on Fridays for a few months earlier this year. It was a massive flop but was a useful electioneering stunt. The ‘trial’ finished very quietly a couple of weeks after Khan was re-elected.Most public services will say they are underfunded. TfL seems to have plenty of Lilly to spank on cycling projects in the capital, yet pleads poverty elsewhere. Just fancy that!

Simon Hayes ● 207d

I think Sadiq has wanted this (and potentially other railways) under his remit for some time. The infrastructure barriers should be easily overcome and it would run akin to the (excellent) Overground. Like it or not, the Elizabeth line is incredibly popular but is a victim of its own success. You can barely get a Rizla paper between riders during the peak, and you wonder how these people got around before. When it's good it's great... TfL isn't all bad - it's just massively underfunded (by Govt.).

Mike Smith ● 207d

Agreed. The transformation from a Cinderella service into a line that is so good people don't want others to find out about it has been really impressive. I'm not a regular user of SWR services but it did seem to me that when there was a strike on it was the first to be cut even though it is obviously very heavily used. Network Rail already works closely with TfL across its network including at stations like Gunnersbury where facilities are shared so I don't see that as any real barrier. 

Andrew OSullivan ● 208d

The improvements on the North London Line when TfL took over from Silverlink were very significant. I think people using the Waterloo service would benefit if it became part of London Overground not just in terms of cheaper fares.

Anita Blake ● 208d

Given their inability to manage a new build line like the Elizabeth I hope that TfL are let nowehere near it. The would have to work closely with NR. GBR or whatever the rail infrastucture company will be called and that replationship is incredibly soured at the moment.

N V Brooks ● 208d