Forum Topic

Watermans Shock Closure

This is obviously a huge disappointment as well as a shock but the full implications remain far from clear.It could be argued that the council, by failing to give interim funding for the centre ahead of its redevelopment have critically weakened their hand. The company behind the Albany Riverside scheme which is to be built on the site could now argue that, as the centre was unviable, they shouldn't be held to an obligation to replace it. Although we don't know the full details, they are clearly being awkward about the building of the replacement centre. What is needed now is detailed reassurance from the council that a new Watermans will be built and a firm timetable for its opening. Without that, the cynics who claim it will never happen may well be vindicated.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 341d57 Comments

Looking at the figures provided by John Todd in his report the basic operations of the centre could be covered by grants and even much reduced ticket sales. However, staff costs probably meant that it was running an unsustainable deficit. The basic economics of the sitaution won't change with a relaunch so it might need to be a volunteer led entreprise like ActOne in Acton.

Mark Evans ● 307d

Think you might be right about squatters - occupation is already being openly discussedhttps://communist.red/brentford-arts-centre-gets-the-axe-defend-culture-from-capitalist-cuts/

Francis Rowe ● 311d

Hopefull HAT evicted Guru within the terms of their lease otherwise this could get quite messy.As the council is the freeholder why not just let them stay rent free in return for them covering utility and security costs? You'll have squatters within weeks if the building is left completely empty.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 314d

We are working with community organisations in an attempt to get the Watermans building reopened as a 'meantime' facility for various community users. I did chat to the man who runs the Guru as have some of my community friends. The notice was extremely short and my understanding was that Guru had a lease from the Hounslow Arts Trust (the charity which ran the Watermans) but were told from last Friday they were only allowed to enter to retrieve their possessions.This is all very unsatisfactory and the council Leader is engaged in attempts to improve the outcome

Guy Lambert ● 314d

I'm a fan of Guy's weekly updates but that is partly because he does engage in a bit of political backbiting.

Francis Rowe ● 314d

substantial part of the adjoining building to the Arts Centre (the ex- Max Factor offices)is now devoted to a  substantial prayer hall ... attended by seemingly well dressed and peaceful people.In time the building is in line for demolition too ...for a stack of flats.Keep Brentford Green they say!Forum Home

Jim Lawes ● 315d

Although permission has been given for the demolition of Watermans that was four years ago and it may be in danger of timing out. The developer, LGL, has been pleading financial hardship to improve the terms of the development of the former police station site where the new Watermans is supposed to be.So best case they start work on other site immediately. I think that has to be complete before they can demolish the existing building so there would probably two more years before it is knocked down.The more likely scenario is that nothing happens at the other site and the existing building lies vacant for years. Various groups are talking about making use of the site with  the one involving Brentford Voice probably the most credible but it is likely to be a fiendishly complex arrangement to put together at short notice.I don't know the details about Guru but I'd agree, if a new organisation was to take over the venue, it might have been helpful to have them on board still.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 315d

And the marina plan?

Philippa Bond ● 315d

Guy  Well I enjoy your blog - when I get the chance to read it!  It is good to read what is going on written in a light hearted way without all the political backbiting that features most in some Councillors' blogs.

Philippa Bond ● 315d

Guy I enjoy your blog.  It is good to read what is going on written in a light hearted way without all the political backbiting that features most in some Councillors' blogs.

Philippa Bond ● 315d

It's going to be demolished and turned into flats, isn't it? The staff at the Guru, whom we have known for many years, told us they were all unemployed as of Thursday.

Susan Kelly ● 315d

Were the people at the Guru restaurant given a choice? Strictly speaking the centre isn't closing but the existing tenant has decided to leave. There is no reason that someone couldn't take over the site on the same basis that the Hounslow Arts Trust had it so why wasn't Guru offered the option to stay and run a restaurant there in the meantime? It would save in security costs.

Anita Blake ● 315d

Had dinner at the Guru this evening as a fond farewell. The place was heaving so I guess lots of people had the same idea.

Susan Kelly ● 320d

Sorry you don't like my weekly update that has been published 425 times and tells my residents what's going on. I have many readers and I get a lot of compliments as well as a few complaints- to which I say reading them is not compulsory.As a veteran Conservative activist reading the thoughts of a Labour councillor is probably welcome.At least you do not spread made up stories about the council being eager to quickly demolish the Watermans which are put about by (at least) one of your less disciplined Conservative chums from Chiswick.

Guy Lambert ● 320d

Still wrong. You could perhaps say that when the estate was developed more could have been done to protect right of way but all those around at the time have long gone. Everyone assumed right of way was established but even had the council anticipated the threat the best course of action was to let open access continue as long as possible without bringing things to a head on the basis that the more established access was, the more likely right of way was to be accepted. However, the court ruled it was private land and, unless you were aware of some legal basis for stopping this that didn't occur to the council's lawyers and all the people who were opposed to this, that result was inevitable.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 320d

True, in that the gates would not have been erected had officers/councillors been on top of their job. Nothing to do with politics. Just a simple question of competence.

N V Brooks ● 320d

Once again not true. Until the estate management company put up gates, I and many others routinely walked by the river at this location. This isn't about party affiliation, it is about being accurate with facts.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 320d

Not at all, by their own admission the right was not enforced and allowed to lapse. I do wish the indefensible was not so routinely defended by the blinkered. It itany wonder that rosette-bearing donkeys are routinely elected?

N V Brooks ● 320d

Definitely always inexplicable that the current Watermans building blocked off the wonderful view of the river for the public from inside and out was built so as to be so inaccessible both inside and out as well as the lack of accessibility riverside alongside both the Max Factor and Watermans buildings.  This has then continued with the dispute over the Brentford Docks development access or lack of it.

Philippa Bond ● 320d

This is a complete misrepresentation. The council did try to enforce right of way but the estate is on private land and a legal challenge was successful. The opening up of the Thames Path is a cross borough planning guideline which has been in place for a long time.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 320d

Or indeed a council lesson hard learned by not enforcing the right of way at Brentford Dock which is closed a large stretch of the riverside walk to non-residents. Once bitten, twice shy Hounslow?

N V Brooks ● 320d

This relentless attitude of 'everything the council does has malign intent' can get a bit tiresome. A condition of planning permission in all these new developments is that the Thames Path is opened up for direct access to the river.This should mean eventually that it will be possible to walk by the Thames from Chiswick to the current Watermans site just as people can do currently for most of the way to the Riverside Studios in Hammersmith. Go to that location and see how vibrant it is with people visiting the centre no just to see films and plays but also for the bar and cafe. Replicating this in Brentford would be transformative.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 320d

For over 100 years the residents of Brentford and their visitors were denied access to views of the River Thames.The riverbank was hogged by wharfs, a Council Depot, boat maintenance yards, private moorings, the hugh Brentford Docks and on the west side by the Duke of Northumberland'svast private lands.When the Gas Works was finally demolished ... the locals were still denied river views by the tall notorious surrounding wall.Since then dubious folk in the Property Market have had a heydayTodays 9 Brentford Labour Councillors shortchange the locals still. No engaging enough with locals ... and writing blogs full of waffle.

Jim Lawes ● 321d

Wait until you see how much of the river view is blocked off by the new expensive apartments that will be built on the Watermans/Max Factor site. Council really don't care as long as there are simply more 'units' paying Council Tax.

N V Brooks ● 321d

Couldn't agree more. It was always inexplicable how the design of the Watermans centre effectively blocked off the river. Perhaps it may mean a smaller site but the current project looks to be dead in the water and a new scheme with a waterside arts centre under very expensive flats might actually get built quicker even starting from scratch.

Anita Blake ● 321d

Rather than holding the to the promise of delivering social housing along with a scheme to reprovide the Arts Centre wouldn't it be better for the opposition to be more flexible. For instance, if the current planning permission lapsed but a new scheme for the riverside site was put forward with the Watermans remaining in its current location but no affordable housing provided as the arts centre would offset this obligation, wouldn't this be worth considering?Obviously you could raise the Riverside Studios as an objection to this structure but the arts centre there was saddled with huge debt which the new Watermans wouldn't have been.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 322d

The Petition has been signed electronically by nearly 300 people to date - others have signed the papers petition.It reads We the undersigned petition the council to Stop the closure of the Watermans and support its continuing operations at 40 High Street, Brentford with some of the developer contributions gained from previous development in our town.We note the current financial difficulties of the Watermans Art Centre and note that the Council has previously pledged to keep the Watermans operating in Brentford and to commit all the proceeds of any sale of its current site to securing a new home for the Watermans and additional social housing in Brentford - and we hold them to that promise. Ongoing operations could be readily financed from s106 and CIL gained from previous developments in Brentford.This petition runs from 27/03/2024 to 03/05/2024.https://democraticservices.hounslow.gov.uk/mgEPetitionListDisplay.aspx

Sam Hearn ● 323d

The is from facebook.Ruth Cadbury MP and all the Labour councillors failed to attend the “ Save Our Watermans” meeting at St Paul’s Church Hall, Church Road, Brentford on Saturday 6th April 2024. The meeting was well chaired by Ruby Almeida, a local resident, and the other main speakers were Adam Shailes, President of the Brentford Chamber of Commerce, former Labour councillor Richard Eason and local entrepreneur Scott Illman.Laura Blumenthal, the Conservative parliamentary candidate for Brentford & Isleworth, Freya Summersgill, the Green Party candidate for Brentford & Isleworth, Theo Dennison, the Independent candidate  and Mike Denniss, the Conservative candidate for the West Brentford by-election and Councillor John Todd all spoke.Chiswick councillors Joanna Biddolph and Gabriella Giles were there as was Honorary Alderman Barbara Reid.

Elizabeth Whittington ● 323d

The is from facebook.Ruth Cadbury MP and all the Labour councillors failed to attend the “ Save Our Watermans” meeting at St Paul’s Church Hall, Church Road, Brentford on Saturday 6th April 2024. The meeting was well chaired by Ruby Almeida, a local resident, and the other main speakers were Adam Shailes, President of the Brentford Chamber of Commerce, former Labour councillor Richard Eason and local entrepreneur Scott Illman.Laura Blumenthal, the Conservative parliamentary candidate for Brentford & Isleworth, Freya Summersgill, the Green Party candidate for Brentford & Isleworth, Theo Dennison, the Independent candidate  and Mike Denniss, the Conservative candidate for the West Brentford by-election and Councillor John Todd all spoke.Chiswick councillors Joanna Biddolph and Gabriella Giles were there as was Honorary Alderman Barbara Reid.

Elizabeth Whittington ● 323d

Please support and sign the PetitionJohn

John Todd ● 323d

Not everyone who uses Watermans lives in Chiswick. It is actually in Brentford and the 30,000 of us who live here don't want to walk to ActOne or the overpriced Chiswick Cinema. Nor would a 'meanwhile' venue at the Tabard be much use.

Sue Lewis ● 323d

Cllr John Todd was going to raise the issue at the Borough Council meeting earlier this week but I don't think anything new emerged as a result of his questions. He called the decision draconian and criticised the lack of public meeting beforehand and the failure to consider any alternative uses for the site. As I understand it the Hounslow Arts Trust was given use of the site rent free. We should be entitled to an explanation as to why it has been ruled out that a similar deal with another arts organisation has been ruled out.On the other hand, there are a few conspiracy theories doing the rounds that the council has hurried along the closure of  centre to profit from selling the land. As the site was effectively sold some time ago as part of the Albany Riverside deal, this seems to me unlikely. The only financial incentive I can see for the council is the accelerated delivery of housing (none of which is going to be social housing) and Community Infrastructure Levy payments from the developer (some of which would be delivered in kind with the building of the new Arts Centre.)

Jeremy Parkinson ● 334d

It's very sad but perhaps not surprising. With ActOne and Chiswick Cinema there are options that you can walk to which wasn't the case in the past. I think they had already lost quite a few regulars when they started charging in the car park - the audience tended to be on the more mature side and it was the complexity and faff of working out how much to pay that put some people off rather than the extra cost. The bus theoretically makes it accessible but if it is cold and wet people tend not to bother.What I don't really understand is why the 250 seater theatre never seemed to put anything on that was particularly interest. Maybe there was stuff and it passed me by but I do try to keep an eye out for what is going on. The Tabard manages to have a varied programme with lots of good stuff in a venue less than half the size. Is there any chance it could become a 'meanwhile' venue for somebody who could put on live events (plays, comedy etc)?

Anita Blake ● 336d

Love it.

N V Brooks ● 339d

As Blair is supposed to have said, his government was tough on poetry, and tough on the causes of poetry.

Richard Greenhough ● 339d

Waterman's were there rent free I understand. Any business with that advantage who cannot make a go of it probably doesn't have a future anyway.

N V Brooks ● 339d

And they haven't been since the swingeing cuts under The Blair government starting in 2003.

N V Brooks ● 339d

From what Susan said about the programmes being issued weekly instead of monthly, and so discouraging regular bookers, one wonders if there was an agenda behind the scenes in favour of closure ?

Richard Greenhough ● 339d

Just had a reimbursement from WatermansThe lady I spoke to said it was simply a case of it no longer being financially viable. Truly sad news.

Madeleine Hazard ● 339d

The Arts are definitely not a Govt priority.

Philippa Bond ● 339d

Some of us long in the tooth may remember what happened with the Richmond ice rink, hopefully this will be different but the cynics are conditioned by experience and culture is low on the list of prioritises

Dorota Chrisp ● 339d

Why are Watermans still selling tickets and memberships when they’re closing down ? And will I get reimbursed for the 6 tickets I bought for April 27th screening of Swan Lake ? I only get the answerphone when I call ….. guess I’ll have to pay them a visit - anyone else have a similar problem ?

Madeleine Hazard ● 339d

Given the parlous state of finances  of many developers has the council ever considered making Topland an offer for the police station site to provide social housing in Brentford and providing its own arts centre?

N V Brooks ● 339d

The two sides ie sites relevant here are led by the same developer. They own both sites. Others are involved as is usual in development. Also developers frequently get a proposal to a certain stage and sell it on. I think that's likely the case here but it is limited by the planning permission so would have to be traded as a single item

Guy Lambert ● 340d

It's true that attendance never recovered from the pandemic. Previously, Waterman's had monthly schedules, so my cinema group could make plans for what we wanted to watch in plenty of time, agreeing several meetings each month along with use of the restaurant. Suddenly, programmes were released only a week at a time so the whole thing fell apart and we stopped going. Not helped, either, by the opening of Act One, Ealing Project and, now, Ealing Picturehouse.

Susan Kelly ● 340d

Correct. Topland (before my time) bought the police station from the police. They also bought the lease of half of the Waterman's building previously occupied by max factor. It has a long lease but the council is the freeholder of the whole building. Waterman's have occupied their half rent free, I believe, but asked to stand on their own feet supported by the arts council.I was a trustee for a time but no longer -not my ward now.Attendance never really recovered after pandemic.The deal for the police station, which I believe survives, had been greatly delayed by lockdown, planning being called in by the secretary of state, and wrangling with the landlord.Now there's massive inflation in constructing costs and, especially, interest rates at a time when the housing market is weak.Still hopeful that the police station will happen but more wrangling. Flats etc in the cop station have never been available to the council because always owned by police or topland

Guy Lambert ● 340d

If the two parts of the development are being done by two different companies, how could a workable and binding deal ever have been arrived at whereby Watermans would move seamlessly from one location to the other?  It was never going to happen.  It more and more seems to have been a ruse to get agreement for Waterman's to move out of its great riverside location to somewhere far worse.  What were people thinking?!

Peter Evans ● 340d

The Brentford Project is the Ballymore scheme on the south side of Brentford High Street. This is a different company - I think it is still Topland and London Green - which is not related in anyway to Ballymore.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 340d

If the police station site is not part of the project,why was it 'allocated'for a new 'world class arts centre'?

Keith Iddon ● 340d

One of the staff at Waterman's told me a while back that there was a big problem with asbestos at the police station. If that's the case then I imagine it'd slow things up no end, not to mention additional costs.

Susan Kelly ● 340d

Albany Riverside/Brentford Police Station are not part of the Brentford Project. It may be appropriate to allocate blame at some point but it could well be that rising interest and construction costs made the initial project unviable and there would have been very little anyone could have done about that.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 340d

It was part of the conditions imposed on the 'Brentford Project' development,that Waterman's was to be relocated somewhere in the parish.The many years defunct cop shop stands was identified as the site for the 'world class art centre'we were to have,as part of the conditions.New flats and retail units have shot up apace,and many more of the same are in the pipeline.Alas,not a sod turned nor a shovel leant on yet at the new location,in fact the police station stands 'M rotting away,yet to be demolished.I'm not surprised because I'm not that easily fooled,but very dsappointed that this was allowed to happen if it was a condition of the massive development.About par for the course really,when you see who is making the decisions.

Keith Iddon ● 340d

Such a shame, and while they are fannying about there are the flats and bedsits in the police station section house laying empty.

N V Brooks ● 340d

As I understand it the two sites were given permission for redevelopment on a linked basis i.e. no swanky riverside flats until the new arts centre was opened.The developer appears to have been playing silly buggers with the police station development and quibbling over the affordability portion - although with rising construction costs, they may have a case. If I recall correctly, this part of the project needs to break ground next month to stop the planning application lapsing.Although the letter from the Watermans offers reassurance that the new centre will eventually open, it may be that the developer may now feel it can proceed with the Albany Riverside scheme on the Watermans site without building the new centre. This is bound to be by far the most profitable part of the development.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 340d

Of course, they will cash in on the old Waterman's/ Max Factor site while the old police station Section House (which could readilly be converted to flats) remains empty.

N V Brooks ● 340d

Councils have become dependent on stealth taxation ie the type that comes from developers of private housing.

Philippa Bond ● 340d

I thought that the old Brentford police station site had been earmarked for a new arts centre with flats above. Is this a case of another developer pulling out or having financial problems?

N V Brooks ● 340d