Forum Topic

Old Market Place car parking

Cllr.  Biddolph’s anecdotal car park survey - What a load of old twaddle

Sonia Beddington ● 366d76 Comments

I walked through the 'Old Market Place' car park yesterday evening at about 8pm and there was just one spare space.It is possible to quibble with Councillor Biddolph's survey on how much people parking here are going to spend on the High Road but her contention that this car park gets full in the evenings can't be contradicted. She is right that, by not taking this into account, the earlier survey is flawed.

Francis Rowe ● 353d

>for the benefit of the vast majority of Chiswickians.Now we’re talking twaddle. What interests me is why this strange alliance combined to get a company that seems to solely specialise in getting parking spaces removed for property developers, on the case.Why did LBH put their / our money in the hat?

Russell Pearson ● 353d

"money being spent to renovate a dilapidated car park with a crumbling wall and some spaces unsuable because they are in such a poor state of disrepair".There are no unusable spaces or seriously crumbling walls. Minor maintenance is all that is necessary. Fact.

Adrian Irving ● 353d

Guy - perhaps you could make enquiries regarding the status of Sainsburys car park, as discussed above ?

Richard Greenhough ● 353d

"...some spaces unsuable..."More Humpty-speak ?

Richard Greenhough ● 353d

I remember the days when Chiswick people complained that a Hounslow Labour Council harvested cash from the wealthy east of the Borough to spend in the West. Now people are objecting to money being spent to renovate a dilapidated car park with a crumbling wall and some spaces unsuable because they are in such a poor state of disrepair.They're just miserable contrarians. And the fact is that the use of the car park is changing with the markets. For the better and for the benefit of the vast majority of Chiswickians. Improving it and adapting it to other uses is required and is also a sound investment.

Paul Campbell ● 354d

"I am in Chiswick most days" Guy, don't you mean after seven in the evening?

Adrian Irving ● 354d

Guy, if you are in Chiswick most days why did you feel the need to drive here because you "wanted to see how parking was going" other than to make some lame political motivated counter point to Biddolph's findings?The sooner councils are non political and councillors are voted in on merit rather than political affiliations the better.PS third time of asking what's the budget for this little jolly?

Adrian Irving ● 354d

Lol.I am in Chiswick most days and have been since the mid 80s. I like Chiswick, and I still haven't seen any evidence whatsoever of the parking problems Jo Biddolph and you seem to agree about. No, I didn't attempt a survey. You need professional reviewers to do that properly.

Guy Lambert ● 354d

I was unfamiliar with Hinge and Bracket (though I only have a fleeting recollection of Hyacinth Bucket, so my comment was based on what I read about the character on google)

Andrew Jones ● 354d

You are getting mixed up between Hyacinth Bucket (pronounced "Bouquet") and Hinge & Bracket.

Richard Greenhough ● 354d

Mark, I never said 'horrible', I said 'disobliging'. There seems to be a lull in the more toxic comments against Cllr Biddolph possibly because some of the worst offenders are away skiing so you may be unaware of the context. I don't have a problem with you being rude about any elected official who you believe isn't acting in our best interest but you need to tell us why that is your view.

Francis Rowe ● 354d

Whatever you think of Councillor Biddolph's findings, twaddle,quaint or interesting, surely it is only fair to acknowledge that this is a person that is willing to  spend a lot of time and energy on examining this local issue and for that she deserves credit.Compare and contrast that with the Councillor from Brentford who thought driving to the location, having a pub lunch, doing a little shopping was a good way to judge the issue.Why is that one councillor takes all the flack whilst the other escapes comment?

Adrian Irving ● 354d

The Hyacinth Bracket analogy wasn't exactly complimentary now was it?

Andrew Jones ● 354d

Please do point me to the horrible comments I have made on this thread.

Mark Frost ● 354d

Is it though Mark? You may be unaware of how toxic some of the comments against her have been on social media. This does seem to be a pattern and it is female councillors who often seem to get the worst of it as Cllr Katherine Dunne gets it from a different set of individuals.Your two comments on this thread have been personally disobliging about an individual who is sincerely trying to act in a way in which she feels is the best for our community. If you think she is wrong perhaps it would be better to explain why.

Francis Rowe ● 354d

No, and in fact I quite enjoyed the rather quaint nature of her survey. Hence my jovial remark that while she has her hand in.....Really just a bit of fun Francis.

Mark Frost ● 355d

Mark, please don't say you are signed up to the small but active group of men who seem obsessed with every utterance of Cllr Biddolph. While I might have issues with some of the claims she makes, I do think she has raised an important point here about parking capacity in the centre of town in the evenings. I asked at the beginning of this thread for people who were personally denigrating her to explain why they objected so much to the substance of what she was saying, which you may have missed but it's not too late.

Francis Rowe ● 355d

The area that Sainsbury's car park occupies doesn't appear to now be considered as Metropolitan Open Land if the following document (from 2013) is anything to go by.https://democraticservices.hounslow.gov.uk/documents/s87038/REG%20107%20Appendix%201%20Part%20D%20Green%20Belt%20and%20MOL%20background%20paper%20June%202013%2011022014%20Cabinet.pdf

Andrew Jones ● 355d

Are you suggesting the bat signal go up for Clr Biddolph who, let's face it, is on somewhat of a roll as far as W4 parking is concerned.

Mark Frost ● 355d

Another good question. My guess would be Metropolitan Open Land remains so even if permission is given to the owner or a third party to use it. The council would have to decide if building on it represents 'substantial harm' and, given their desire to meet house building targets, they will probably decide it doesn't or at least the benefit of the new housing outweighs the harm of the loss of open space. I'd anticipate that loss of parking space in central Chiswick wouldn't be considered a substantial harm by the council planners.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 355d

This sounds like it is something that should be investigated by the councillors for the area that includes the Sainsburys car park. Has anyone thought of contacting them and asking them to do so ?

Richard Greenhough ● 355d

Another point - The car park is understood to have been built on what was originally Metropolitan Open Land. Which suggests that the land is no longer Metropolitan Open Land?If it's not, who owns it now? Sainsbury's I'd presume.Something for the lawyers to argue about I'm sure.

Andrew Jones ● 355d

That's a very astute point. The summary of the covenant says that parking charges must be the same but we don't know the exact wording. It would be interesting to see what happened if someone challenged a fine on this basis - I suspect that Europarks would refund if they got the feeling that the complainant had done their research properly and could mount an effective challenge if it ever got to court. Really it is the council that should be defending residents against unfair fines but I can't see them taking action over this.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 355d

Interesting.On first reading that might suggest that any fines issued by Euro Car Parks (or whoever it is who Sainsbury's have putsourced the parking control to) for parking in the car park after 22.10 might not be enforceable.

Andrew Jones ● 355d

The following is from an article on this site:"The car park is understood to have been built on what was originally Metropolitan Open Land. It is subject to a restrictive covenant signed on 12 March 1986 which states that it can only be used for car parking purposes and no structures can be erected on it. This also requires Sainsbury’s to maintain the car park in good order and not charge more for parking than rates prevailing in nearby council owned car parking. Hounslow Council is responsible for enforcing the provisions of the covenant."My understanding is, probably based on what I have read here, that Sainsbury's lawyers don't think this covenant is a bar to them building on the car park. With the council favourable to the idea of development they aren't going to hold them to it.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 355d

When the car park still had paper tickets the barriers would allow you to exit within 30 minutes of entering without needing to pay for parking or getting your ticket validated at Sainsbury's (if you'd made the minimum spend).Not sure what the agreement re car parking was with the council - maybe something is written down somewhere? If any agreement is difficult to get hold of, an FOI request would probably come up Trumps.

Andrew Jones ● 355d

You certainly used to be able to drop off/pick up at/to the local school by using the Sainsbury's car park as well as using the recycling services that were there without using Sainsbury's and I understood that this was an arrangement/ condition made by the Council as part of the planning approval.  Will this still continue when it is redeveloped?

Philippa Bond ● 355d

I don't remember the Highway Code mentioning donkeys but it definitely does mention horses.

Philippa Bond ● 356d

Nearly forgot. The budget is how much Guy or are we not privy to that information?

Adrian Irving ● 356d

You may well ask if I don't need parking why comment.The answer is simple, I want my High Road to thrive.I want it to be able  to attract families to shop and dine so reasonable parking facilities is a part of the answer.I have to wonder however if Hounslow and others can see the bigger picture.

Adrian Irving ● 356d

Guy the point is there seem to be an undercurrent of thinking that reducing the car park spaces in this area will have little or no impact.This is  true some of the time but there are also times when there is just not enough capacity causing drivers to potter around and around looking for a place to park. Not good, I am sure you agree.I don't do the weekly shop, my wife does. Usually mid week and often I am told their park is busy busy whilst the store itself is quiet.That should tell us something about demand. When Sainsbury's car park is inevitable shrunk what then?BTW I have lived in Chiswick at least twice as long as you but never used the High St Car Park. Walk, bus or cycle is my way of getting about locally.

Adrian Irving ● 356d

As I have observed before, I lived in Chiswick for over 25 years before moving to Brentford about a dozen years ago. Parking in Chiswick has never been a problem and I confess when I lived in Chiswick I always drove. Sainsbury's on Saturday morning you often ended up touring round trying to get a place. On occasion I couldn't get a space on CHR itself and I had to go to Dolman Road and on a couple of occasions to Arnott Close.I use buses sometimes and I agree the service is excellent. I nearly always cycle but use the car from time to time for a variety of reasons. I have covered nearly 1000 miles by car in the last year.

Guy Lambert ● 356d

My recollection is that there is a large sign at the car park entrance by Acton Lane saying it is available for two hours 'for customers of Sainsbury's' and the details of how the restrictions operate are on smaller yellow signs dotted around the car park. Don't know what indications there are at the Belmont Road entrance.It seems to me highly likely that people arriving towards the end of opening hours at Sainsbury's may assume that because they have shopped there and due to many other cars remaining parked that it is okay to stay a bit as long as they leave within two hours of arriving. They will get a fine and short shrift from Sainsbury's if they plead mitigation.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 356d

To be honest, the signage saying parking is limited to 2 hours is very obvious.If the signage mentioning that you can't park when Sainsbury's is shut isn't as obvious, I would have plenty of sympathy with errant car drivers.

Andrew Jones ● 359d

I must add I am surprised that a man of your beliefs, drove when there is an excellent bus service from Brentford to Chiswick.Naughty naughty.

Adrian Irving ● 359d

Nothing to do with luck Guy.All you are confirming, shock horror, car parks are not full all of the time. I was there at 11am when busy people are out and about getting the weekend shopping done and then going home for lunch.While I have your attention perhaps you would like to disclose the budget for this project that the hard pressed rate payers will no doubt be asked to stomp up for.Don't be coy.

Adrian Irving ● 359d

I must be very lucky. I drove to Chiswick today because a)somebody has nicked the saddle off my bike and b)I wanted to see how parking was going. I arrived about 1, parked in the Old Market Place where there were at least half a dozen spaces free but I was able to choose one of my preferred places where the spaces are on an angle outside Foster Books. Did some shopping, had lunch in the George and departed, noting that there were still plenty of empty places.

Guy Lambert ● 359d

.....and another thing, why when our police station was shut were the two "police marked cars only" parking spaces retained?This needs to be addressed. A five minute job with a screwdriver.

Adrian Irving ● 359d

The world is just too confusing for drivers.

Paul Campbell ● 359d

It might be confusing for people to see cars parked in the Sainsburys car park 'out of hours', for it might encourage them to drive in and join them, not realising they might have paid for a long term permit.

Peter Evans ● 359d

Walked past earlier. Not a space. Nearly got hit by a ladder from one of the market stall people putting up bunting for tomorrow. No Elf & Safety there as they set up - wonder if they’re even insured.

Russell Pearson ● 359d

Thought it was a CAR PARK?

Sonia Beddington ● 359d

You'll need to ensure the donkey's Horse Passport is carried at all times.

Andrew Jones ● 360d

Read Chiswick High ROAD.

Adrian Irving ● 360d

You left out buying your own donkey

Julian Pavey ● 360d

Having just walked past the car park I can tell you there wasn't a free space in sight. In fact five cars passed through in the few minutes I passed by.Same story on my return with four cars having to drive straight through.As to the claim it floods, today, after prolonged heavy rain, all I could see was a few decent sized puddles no larger than any other place along the High Road and cycle lane.

Adrian Irving ● 360d

Back to the High St Car Park.The questions in my mind are, does it need remodelling anyway? I can't see too much wrong with it as is.How much is budget and who pays?How long will the work take? Important, as there will be a loss of spaces whilst the work is being done.Lastly, will the new scheme be a big improvement on the existing? From what I've seen I can't say it will.

Adrian Irving ● 360d

You can still share lifts and get cabs if you don't want to/can't walk, cycle or take public transport.  That it what many do and have always done especially when they are no longer fit enough to drive - even if that is a prospect you may not want to face!

Philippa Bond ● 360d

Anita's right about being able to pay to park in Sainsbury's car park - it's £120 for a monthly permit, and slightly over £15 for anything up to 24 hours.

Andrew Jones ● 360d

I think you just have to lump it Philippa just like the residents living in the new housing will. It's not like a pub or a restaurant where a licence can be removed if noise is generated. However, if you buy a flat next to a supermarket, you have to expect deliveries will be made when you are trying to sleep.On the car park there are cars parked there during the night but I think Sainsbury's sells passes to do this. It probably also leads others to believe it is okay to park resulting in extra fine revenue for them.As I understand it, the outline of the plan for the site is for housing blocks with a car park much reduced in size. This car park used to be regularly full to bursting at the weekend but since the pandemic and the Fishers Lane closure it is much less busy. However it is generally at least half full during shopping hours so if they half the number of spaces it is going to become very difficult to park.

Anita Blake ● 360d

So the facility can't be kept in perpetuity when building is allowed on Metropolitan Open Land?  Many supermarkets are rebuilding with housing above.  Is there parking with these developments?  Supermarkets obviously need good dpace for deliveries which are often very early in the mornings (and noisy) - how does this work?

Philippa Bond ● 362d

Thanks for that info Francis, I had a feeling that there were some new restrictions on staying there after shopping hours, but I wasn't certain. Thanks for confirming.I hope the restrictions are well signposted so people avoid getting tickets.

Andrew Jones ● 362d

Just one other point that someone was kind enough to contact me about. The new parking regime at Sainsbury's means you automatically get a fine if you are in the car park outside the stores trading hours. That means you have to be out by 10.10pm in the evening or 5.10pm on Sunday. There is no good reason why they couldn't extend that to 1am plus allowing longer parking for when the car park is otherwise underused. The bad reason they won't do this is they don't want the car park to be indispensible for local people because they intend to announce plans to build on it quite soon.

Francis Rowe ● 363d

Thanks for clarifying Francis.

Andrew Jones ● 363d

To be clear I did mean an extension of the minimum parking time in the evening in the Sainsbury's car park. That would just require a tweak to the software operating the ANPR cameras and Sainsbury's might feel it improved night time security.The recycling banks have gone but it remains the case that two hours parking is allowed in Sainsbury's car park whether or not you shop there.Parking charges in the evening are definitely not the answer. The whole point is to make the place attractive to visit and it would just displace more parking to residential streets which would be both annoying for people who live in the area and create safety issues for people returning home late. Also bear in mind that council support of the markets would be reduced if their was a revenue loss from the need to close the car park when charges apply.

Francis Rowe ● 363d

The Sainsbury's car park has always been useful for shopping elsewhere in addition to shopping in Sainsbury's.  I've always understood that this was a condition of the Sainsbury's planning application.  It was also possible to do a drop off and pick up and visit the recycling banks without charge or visiting Sainsbury's.  I'm surprised that Birchgrove has not kept space for a visiting ambulance where they had parking behind the building.

Philippa Bond ● 363d

I agree, restricting parking time in the evening is not necessary. Anecdotally, I often drive to the High Road after seven and never have a problem parking near to the High Road.It is also worth noting that Old Market Place does not have street lighting and is quite dark at night, especially near the Old Police Station. It is also a car crime hotspot.

Sonia Beddington ● 363d

Hi Felicity, possibly you're right, it hadn't occurred to me that Francis might have been talking about the Sainsbury's car park.I get what you are saying about an evening out lasting longer than 2 hours, but unless you have some way of ensuring there will be spaces available for those who feel vulnerable or unsafe parking elsewhere, I think the likelihood is that most who feel that way about their safety probably wouldn't find a space in the central car park anyway. There will be more demand for the limited spaces in due course when the development opens and people come to visit residents.A limit of two hours would at least improve the chances of being able to find a place in the evening in the central car park, as spaces wouldn't be blocked up with cars parked there for the night.The other way of making it more likely that people can find a space to park, would be to start charging for parking after 7pm, but that smacks a bit of using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Andrew Jones ● 363d

I think Francis was talking about the Sainsbury's car park not the central one. It would be a bad move to limit parking time in the latter to two hours as an evening out generally last longer than that and it is the safest place for women to park when it is dark.

Felicity Caborn ● 363d

Limiting the maximum parking time after 7pm does seem like a way to manage the demand for the car park. But if you are going to do it, I reckon 4 hours would prove to be too long, perhaps 2 hours would be more realistic in acheiving a good turnover and reasonable availability of spaces? The next question is who should pay for the ANPR to enforce the restriction. Birchgrove? Hounslow?

Andrew Jones ● 363d

Peter - that is a good point. The car park does provide overflow car parking in the evening for Linden Gardens residents and their visitors and will be used extensively by visitors to the Birchgrove development so once the centre opens pressure on existing parking provision will be greater.On Andrew's point, I can't be sure how significant a factor the changes at the Sainsbury's car park is and the testimony of one local pub manager doesn't clinch the issue. It was always ambiguous whether or not there was any enforcement of the car park in the evening and the barriers were always up and I do know of people who recommended visitors to park there overnight if they were leaving earlier the following day.Either way a significant boost to the nighttime economy could be provided by extending the maximum parking time to four hours after 7pm. This wouldn't deal with concerns that people might have about personal safety when parking but would instantaneously create more space in the centre of town.

Francis Rowe ● 363d

It seems perverse to remove parking spaces from  the 'Market' area at the same time as the Police Station development is increasing its profits by not providing parking spaces for its staff or residents.

Peter Evans ● 363d

Re something that Francis wrote:One factor not mentioned is that, according to one pub manager in Chiswick, many people coming here in the evening used to park in Sainsbury's car park but, since ANPR enforcement was introduced, there has been much pressure on available spaces.If what that pub manager said is true, then part of the reason for the central car park being full at weekends is displaced cars that used to park in the Sainsbury's car park.Do others here think this might be true ... it just seems a bit unlikely to me, for a variety of reasons.

Andrew Jones ● 363d

Other Francis, whether you agree with the survey or not she raises an important point about car park use in the evening, one which you can verify for yourself if you are sceptical by wandering down to the area in the evening.I don't think the use of the (Old Market Place) car park for markets is the issue here. I'm sure the food market is lovely and there is ample parking available on Sundays elsewhere during the day. The previous survey missed the very important, possible key point about the possible impact on the nighttime economy and contributed to the momentum the proposals for the car park are gaining. The benefits of the plan shouldn't be dismissed but the costs and ways to mitigate them need also to be part of the discussion which I don't think they were until Cllr Biddolph did this work.

Francis Rowe ● 363d

That car park in the spring summer is packed from about 5p onwards with cars coming in and going out with no parking spaces available including weekends.I know because i spend a lot of time sitting outside the George when the weathers nice and the days are longer.

Julian Pavey ● 363d

It is not "Old Market Place" car parking, that is a name that has no official standing.But if you are going to call the Councilor's survey old twaddle please explain why exactly it is not useful evidence.  It is clearly limited in scope but equally I do question what use a professional survey is when they exclude any period after 7 pm - the car parking is in use then.  It is almost as though the professional survey was trying to skew the results.To be clear, I am not too worried about car parking for myself, I live close enough that I would never use the car to get there because it is barely 10 mins walk.  But I do understand why local businesses would be concerned to ensure that there is sufficient local parking to meet the demand that the local businesses generate

Justin Stephenson ● 363d

Agree

John Southey ● 363d

"(Francis Rowe, that is)."You got me worried for a second, Clare! :D

Francis Sheehan ● 363d

Agree, Francis.

Claire Moran ● 364d

(Francis Rowe, that is).

Claire Moran ● 364d

Reading Cllr Biddolph's 'survey', the distinct impression I had was of clutching at straws. It was as if she said we need as many parking spots as possible so punters on a weekend can drink-drive.On another note, we visited the food market early on Sunday and it was really nice. Loved the types of food on offer, the Himalayan dumplings and the Colombian arepas were really nice. Big plus for me. And restaurants looked rather full, so not exactly a minus.

Francis Sheehan ● 364d

It would be interesting to hear people expand on these negative comments. Anyone walking through Chiswick in the evening, particularly on Friday and Saturday, can see that the car par is full as Cllr Biddolph claims. Wouldn't reducing capacity mean that visitors would be required to find space on adjacent streets which won't please residents and require female visitors to park away from a well lit central car park in an isolated area?One factor not mentioned is that, according to one pub manager in Chiswick, many people coming here in the evening used to park in Sainsbury's car park but, since ANPR enforcement was introduced, there has been much pressure on available spaces.

Francis Rowe ● 364d

Another case of Hounslow spending our money "landscaping the garden when water is pouring through the roof".What the cost of this low priority landscaping scheme will be I can only guess at but I can confidently predict it will be large to ridiculous.

Adrian Irving ● 366d

It does have Hyacinth Bucket feel about it.

Mark Frost ● 366d

STOP THE BOATS! STOP THE MARKETS! STOP THE WORLD THE NIMBIES WANT TO GET OFF!

John Hall ● 366d