Forum Topic

Junior doctors

From what I can see, junior doctors are paid between £35,000.00 and £65,000.00, (I think they should be paid a lot more for what they do), but what I don't understand is why and how diversity managers are paid up to £150,00.00 - for doing what exactly?

Brian Coyle ● 497d45 Comments

One thing what will be going on is the hundreds/ thousands of flats going up in bollo lane and the industrial estate they will all want Drs. All tbe flats gone up in  Brentford looking like Manhatton they  want dr's its all unsustainable

Pete Smith ● 492d

Yeah my doctor’s waiting room is empty. 3 doctors in the practice. I never know how many doctors are on site. Still have to wait quite a while even with no one else waiting , no idea what’s going on

Maggie Dodge ● 492d

Yea it’s a variety of issues!

Maggie Dodge ● 492d

If you can't actually get in touch with your GP Surgery in order to make an apptmt...

Philippa Bond ● 492d

Just been googling about the NHS fascinating stuff  for example in the 50s most GPs worked from their home on their own and saw 80 patients a day. I have visited my Gp surgery a few times recently that was based in Fishers Lane. Whenever I went there ,with 3 dr surgery's in there, there was usually around 30 people minimum sitting waiting.Having been to their new place on Stamford Brook Ave still 3 surgerys the most I have seen sitting waiting is 5  ,something not right is going on

Pete Smith ● 492d

Poignant and valid point PS.It was Blair and Brown who, without making it a manifesto commitment, opened wide our doors to all and sundry, and that decision is the leading reason our infrastructure is now at saturation point. Worth saying that Sir Keir and his inner cabinet have no desire to curb the inflow once ther're in charge.

Denis I. Fox ● 492d

Re Maggie's Dr's comment  when Blair got in there were 9 million people less living in the u.k    9 million!  Think about that for a minute.

Pete Smith ● 493d

I commented on the length of the waiting list for my operation to my surgeon recently,  he calmly said you need to help get a different government.  Not a very sympathetic response to someone who professes to feel sorry for my situation and who tells me I am in the urgent category.

Maggie Dodge ● 493d

I understand the situation with your friend. Terrible, and they tell me this is progress. Texting is easy for everyone? Pardon me, I don't think so.

Nicholas Beard ● 493d

We've had a problem with a friend who can receive texts and now read them because the text has been enlarged on her phone for her but she cannot do whatever it is they want her to do to reply!  And nor could the GP's surgery - so we had to take her to the hospital to talk to them there.  Luckily it was local!Completely agree about mobile signals!  I suspect a lot of offers of appointments are at short notice but with the number of no-shows that are reported you would think they could deal with even more patients if the records were up to date.

Philippa Bond ● 493d

Just reading HS2 is costing 66billion,thought to myself imagine putting that into the nhs wouldn't it be great.However I just checked,that money would be gone, spent, blown in 4 months.

Pete Smith ● 493d

Those bodies who insist on making contact by texts refuse to acknowledge that mobile signals are not available in every part of the country. They ought to offer alternatives for those who do not have a mobile or who cannot always get texts.

Richard Greenhough ● 494d

Does everybody who changes their phone number tell everyone that they have a new number?  Does the GP tell the hospitals where someone has appointments when someone has died?  I suspect not.Hospitals seem to choose to contact patients with texts rather than letters.  Did anybody actually ask us how we wanted to be contacted?  Creating letters and sending them and paying postage no doubt is more expensive but it may be what some people need.  Letters often arrive after the appointment or too late for arrangements for transport to be made.  Sometimes it makes you wonder if this isn't another form of rationing.Younger people tend to have and to use mobile phones much more than older people. In the main younger people have younger fingers and younger eyes.  There are differences in the digital technology ability of us all  - and some make it worse for themselves when they won't engage with it at all when they could.  Just because you have a mobile doesn't mean that you can perform acrobatics on it!  It may have just been bought so that you can phone home or phone a taxi when you need help!

Philippa Bond ● 494d

Every time I get  a hospital appointment, frequently at the moment. I’m told there’s a cost of  £160 for every missed appointments. When I get to the clinic I’m often waiting for an hour to be seen. Who is not turning up? How many? How would the clinic  cope if they did all turn up. More false data I think

Maggie Dodge ● 494d

You may find this interesting - it is easy for some but less for others:https://www.england.nhs.uk/gp/investment/gp-contract/digital-requirements-guidance/Having an idea of what is happening might help patients.  Not being able to get appointments becaue of the way that access has changed can be a big problem for some patients.

Philippa Bond ● 495d

https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/how-the-nhs-limits-access-to-healthcareand more

Philippa Bond ● 495d

Peter, I have total empathy for you, and wish you well in the future.Without going into details I have had three appointments cancelled by the hospital in the past 18 months, and whilst not in pain I am still waiting.

Denis I. Fox ● 495d

https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/25305157/failing-hospital-las-vegas-junket-rap-nhs-bosses/  .....Animal farm comes to mind,

Pete Smith ● 496d

Pete, you are not alone, quality of life is precious, you have done what most people would do if they have savings. We will all have to pay more depending on our own ailments out of our pocket. Another idea is to create a health pot on top of our NI payments just like the government NEST pension pot, so employees & employers pay a percentage on your own health pit allowing you the option to use it when required to go private. This will reduce the pressure on the system, so reduce waiting lists and create space for those individuals not able to fund their own pot. This scheme would be much less than paying for private insurance. Either way the NHS can not go on as it is for all the reason everyone has stated. My advise have a savings pot for your own health so you can afford to go privately if the need arises.

Jayne Thorburn ● 496d

Re Dennis,in a way it is already privatised.For 4 months I have been in agony 1 hr sleep a night on average with this thing. NHS Referral for "urgent cases" is 18 weeks and that remember is just a consultation ,more waiting for tests then more waiting for an op. So I have basically done my savings on MRI ,ULTRASOUND finally a private operation just before Christmas. I look at my bank account and I just feel sick in another way Ive blown most of it and a bit concerned to be honest.  The NHS is shot to pieces and needs a total re think ,one thing fine people for not turning up for appts.

Pete Smith ● 496d

Jayne, some patients need help to sit up and it usually takes 2 nurses to do this, I could see it was a problem with patients having to wait a long time before they could help them.  The hands on part of the job needs extra staff.

Janice Evans ● 496d

Janice, poor communication and processes leads to frustrated demotivated staff, that’s the real issue. Imagine instead I of staff hanging around waiting to know what to do, where to go, they had iPads and at their fingertips with all the info what they need to do their job. Porters in the right place to ferry patients to scans, exrray departments etc, pharmacy delivery drugs timely on patient discharge not hours later, doctors on time to discharge patients. If you are in hospital on a Friday nothing will happen til Monday. This isn’t rocket science staff would be more productive, more motivated so we probably don’t need thousands more staff just more effective staff. Just saying

Jayne Thorburn ● 496d

An ageing population and an ever increasing population from overseas, a good deal of it avoidable it must be said, has added to the gradual disintegration of our infrastructure.All the collective thoughts and ideas from members of this forum, plus the perceived wisdom of the confident and bright Health-Minister-in-Waiting Wes Streeting will not prevent the escalation of the privatisation of our NHS.

Denis I. Fox ● 496d

One thing that's obvious having spent a lot of time at the Hospital during Nov, Dec '22 compared to many years ago although they were all very nice there was an underlying feeling or atmosphere that I cannot explain but felt it could possibly have been tension due to lack of staff.

Janice Evans ● 496d

So the message is clear no one is happy so time for patients to protest and the  NHS to reform after all it is supposed to be there for patients. By the way hundreds of millions is wasted or stolen by staff from the NHS so just think more accountability which is easy if we have the right technology to manage staff and processes, better patient care and communication, better productivity, those that can afford too pay something at the point of use, better procurement of all supplies including cleaning materials. Rather than staff stealing provide a discounted staff rate which can easily be subsided by supply chain. We just need to think more creatively and commercially.

Jayne Thorburn ● 496d

Sorry - here's the datahttps://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

Guy Lambert ● 496d

Just wrong. The NHS does not waste money, though I doubt they are not perfect in this matter than other large organisations (or individuals).After all they were forced by the government to waste loads on useless PPE etc.We spend 10.2% of our national income on  health care, at the low end of comparable countries (see attached). The country that is wasting shedloads of money is the USA where they spend 16.9% of their income on health for a very poor service.

Guy Lambert ● 496d

"We've put in more money than ever before."  Well I should b well hope so!  There are more of us than ever before and the  NHS has been allowed to crumble more than ever before.  If you don't maintain buildings to the extent that has been happening then they will need even greater refurbishment and that is if it isn't too late and rebuilding is needed.  An enormous amount of hospital equipment is actually bought through donations from the public.It is NOT just money that NHS staff need and are complaining about but if you don't have good working conditions as part of a team with an adequate number of supporting staff in that team then the enjoyment and satisfaction in that job will wane and eventually as working conditions sink even further and you fear for the wellbeing of those you are trying to treat - and your own wellbeing is at risk while the situation is being deliberately ignored - there will no longer be a good enough reason to stay and put up with it.Meanwhile certain MPs who don't need it - but who will cherry pick what they want from it when they can - will continue to smirk as they continue to destroy the NHS. Social care and medical care obviously needs to be linked. There should also be more taught in schools and preventative medicine so that A&E isn't full of the reckless and feckless who know nothing about the most simple of first aid or are drunk or under the influence of recreational drugs.  Private medicine should also be paying a fair price for any NHS use that is used or becomes necessary.Meanwhile it becomes harder to actually contact doctors' surgeries to see a doctor and that is if your surgery now actually has a doctor because many of them have now been bought up by companies and there aren't any doctors except for the occasional locum.  There certainly isn't the continuity of care necessary for best outcomes.Here's something from today's news where all three GPs in a surgery have been invited to take redundancy due to new ways of working:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-67912753

Philippa Bond ● 496d

Well if the doctors aren’t striking for more money, they aren’t getting the message across, comparing their salary with low paid workers and saying they can’t afford to eat.  If it is about a crumbling service their actions are making it crumble faster.  They will not change what’s necessary this way. We all know the NHS wastes money. So what is the way to change it? Mass protest by patients ? that won’t  affect operations etc would be preferable

Maggie Dodge ● 496d

Vanessa we the tax payer contribute something like 300 billion a year to the NHS. The issue isn’t under investment the issue is how it is spent, who gets what…..with a growing population the only way forward is reform and a hybrid model if we want first class service & care. With an aging population, advanced technology, medicines, diagnostic capability, the working population will not be able to cover the costs alone. There will be less people contributing so the burden falls on a the minority who are working. We need more accountability, less politics, better safe care. Hybrid model will deliver what we need. There isn’t another western country who has a state run care system alone, ask yourself why? It doesn’t work.

Jayne Thorburn ● 496d

"Plants, Germany and The Netherlands all run very successful hybrid models..."Not entirely sure what hybrid plants have got to do with this debate ?

Richard Greenhough ● 497d

Why can the government find all this money for daft schemes like Rwanda and MPs are getting a very nice £6000 pay rise yet come out with total cobblers saying we can't afford to pay people who really matter to us all? They always come up with the money for what suits them, and let's face it who is of more use to us? A doctor who could save your life or an overpaid MP who sits back and lets people be subjected to persecution over decades and does bugger all about it?

Vanessa Smith ● 497d

How much have you increased your fees over the past fifteen years, Mikhail ? Do you charge by the hour or by piece rates ?

Richard Greenhough ● 497d

I don't claim to be an expert but the Commonwealth Fund clearly is an expert in the field. You can thank those raving socialists Standard Oil for this outfit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_FundI love your resounding Oxymoron "Politics has no place in the NHS but in my view it has got too big that’s it’s unmanageable."What you say about (EG France) is cobblers. UK provision was ranked best in the world in 2008 and is now rated 4th compared to France which is rated 8th out of 11 countries.The US system, beloved by many Conservatives, is the worst of the countries assessed by a mile, despite their system costing about twice as much as a percentage of national income than the UK, who spend towards the bottom end of other developed economies.

Guy Lambert ● 497d

Plants, Germany and The Netherlands all run very successful hybrid models where those who cannot afford to pay a still afforded top quality care.  The health insurance model is like an extension of national insurance in that you don't actually get a choice whether or not to pay it if employed unless you specifically opt out however it is very much a common fund in that those who do pay support those who cannot afford to pay.

N V Brooks ● 497d

Guy that’s a load of rubbish the NHS has been crumbling for decades, with technology advancing, ageing population the NHS has NOT kept up with the times because NO political party has the courage to touch it. It needs radical reform and until that happens it will continue to crumble. People move  to Australia for many reasons perhaps weather & life style play a role. Surely the key is that the NHS should be there to provide safe, up to date diagnosis and treatments for patients in a timely manner. Throwing money at it will make zero difference to patients. It is inefficient, under productive with too many milking it including pharmaceuticals companies. In the end people will vote for their care and if it means using their pocket to get the kind of care one expects then that’s what will happen. Politics has no place in the NHS but in my view it has got too big that’s it’s unmanageable. Countries that operate a hybrid model state & private have far better outcomes than state run system example France.

Jayne Thorburn ● 497d

The government looks for opportunities to pour tax payers' money down the drain to keep everyone as poor as possible - a good example being the £400b/£500b wasted on the Covid scam. All unnecessary but makes people poorer, which people must stand up against..

Michael Brown ● 497d

All this is well and good, but are diversity managers really necessary, and why are they paid such eye watering amounts of money? What do they actually do to justify their obscene salaries?

Brian Coyle ● 497d

The junior doctors say their pay is 35% down in real terms over the past 15 years. Unless they were being overpaid 15 years ago, they have every reason to do whatever's necessary to get their pay back where it should be. This, of course, applies to most workers - so you either sit back and slowly become impoverished, or take action.

Michael Brown ● 497d

I read a couple of days ago that 8000 doctors have left the country, mainly for Australia and NZ (the numbers may be wrong but it's what I recall). I also read that more than 40% of doctors are planning to leave the NHS.The Conservative party have always disliked the NHS because it is a public service available to everybody free at the point of use. A hated example of a piece of socialism which for 75 years has worked very well despite previous efforts to hobble it. I believe the current nonsensical way they are dealing with doctors (it's not just 'juniors') is part of the plan. The long game is to say we can't afford it - let's go to an insurance-based private system like the appalling and extremely expensive US system.In 2008 we were assessed by the Commonwealth Fund as having overall the best Health system in the world. We have been plummeting down the ratings ever since the Conservatives got their hands on the controls and this is probably one of the main reasons why they are trying to delay the election as long as they can get away with (together with other plans to make life worse for poor people)

Guy Lambert ● 497d

The problem with the 'if you don't like the salary don't take the job' argument is that is exactly what is happening. A significant proportion of doctors we train in this country are moving overseas. Of my offspring's contemporaries it seems to be more than half with Australia being the favoured destination. They get much better pay, much better working conditions, less abusive patients. The issues are particularly acute for doctors working in London where extortionate rents and eye-watering car parking charges make disposable income close to zero.As for the nonsense point about their education being subsidised - that's the same for everyone in this country. In addition doctors will have built up student debt which will regularly top six figures and which has seen the interest rate charged rise further reducing take home.Junior doctors aren't striking primarily for more money. They are striking because the health system in this country is collapsing.

Francis Rowe ● 497d

I’m waiting for an operation. Should have been done a month ago. They now can’t give me a date because of the backlog. I’m sure there  are people worse off than me but it’s hard to support these doctors when you’re one of the people on the waiting list, that gets longer every time they strike.

Maggie Dodge ● 497d

No. That is the goal of neo-liberals who want to roll back all things state funded - and who want low tax and no state services.

Philippa Bond ● 497d

Don’t forget all the add ons, basic pay is not what they actually earn and let’s not forget the cost to the taxpayers of all their pensions which is huge. So junior doctors are not prepare to work hard to climb the ladder like everyone else, it’s pure greed, as junior doctors they have a lot more to learn, the cost of their training is hugely subsidised by the tax payer, then some leave to go into private work and make a fortune. They shouldn’t not be allowed to strike. Perhaps their goal is to kill the NHS to open up privatisation who knows…..

Jayne Thorburn ● 497d

Police are not allowed to strike. Why are doctors ? If you dont like the salary - dont take the job.

Anna Kirkpatrick ● 497d