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Mr Bates -v- The Post Office

Second part of this television drama of this terrible British scandal on now on ITV.Well worth seeing.

Philippa Bond ● 989d70 Comments

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-12920383/Mr-Bates-vs-Post-Office-viewers-left-raging-gobsmacked-twist-devastating-scandal-revealed.html

Philippa Bond ● 989d

Brilliant true drama series of this terrible scandal ruining so many innocent lives.You can scarcely believe watching it the arrogance of the P.O. executives in their believe in their fledgling computer system, and total disregard towards their employees.Toby Jones acting genius is the perfect fit for hero Mr Bates.

Denis I. Fox ● 989d

Really gripping but also infuriating as you want to throttle the people who did this.

Susan Kelly ● 989d

Superb (and true) drama. The terrible truth is that for some of the people involved, there has still been no satisfactory conclusion or compensation.

Colin Jordan ● 989d

Nobody playing Adam Crozier CEO of the Royal Mail,who had a significant role in the real life scandal at the time, might of been tricky to write the scene where he leaves the Royal Mail to become CEO of ITV.

Andrew McClure ● 989d

On the day the Liberal Democrats launch their latest campaign in Guildford I was interested to know who was Parliamentary Under-Secretary for State for Postal Affairs in 2010-2012, the height of the exposed P.O. scandal.Non other than the outwardly pious Sir Ed Davey who I remember back in the day, cared not a jot for the plight of those poor downtrodden sub postmasters.

Denis I. Fox ● 989d

Indeed. Also ignore The Guardian's claims to have been with this story 'from the beginning'. Rubbish. First sniff of this year earlier in Private Eye and they started to cover this scandal in detail in 2011

N V Brooks ● 988d

Agree - The Eye has been campaigning on the side of the sub-postmasters for years. This whole thing is a disgrace, persecuting people in the full knowledge that the computer system was a failure, and that there were a lot of complaints, yet telling each individual it was only them. Mr. Bates turned down an OBE last year, and good for him. That shower at the Post Office even tried to get judges to stand down from the case, will there be any accountability? I see today Paula Vennells was not able to be reached, she has a lot to answer for, she left the Post Office in 2019 with a CBE for 'services to the Post Office' and a £400,000 bonus just to add insult to injury. Whatever happened to British justice?

Vanessa Smith ● 988d

Kevinn Hollinrake, the Business Minister, has been campaigning for Vennels to be stripped of her CBE if she does not surrender it voluntarilly.  I would also like to see her stripped of her 'licence to officiate' within the Church of England (she was ordained in 2005). She has already been removed from any position of authority within the CofE  but I see no place for someone so "cruel and incompetent" (Lord Arbuthnot's words not mine). to continue in Holy Office

N V Brooks ● 988d

You would think there would be grounds for prosecution of those who knew about the fault and then allowed the situation to escalate.

Keith Iddon ● 988d

You would hope so. I admit to feeling somewhat safer now that Vennels has been removed from the board at Imperial Health.

N V Brooks ● 988d

There is a petition to have her award rescinded being circulated on FB.

Keith Iddon ● 988d

Fujitsu, the supplier of this flawed system need to be held to account also.Computer Weekly have been reporting on this since 2009 and as of 2022 the government are still paying Fujitsu for Horizon and other IT systems.https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366560655/Controversial-Fujitsu-contract-with-Post-Office-extended-again

Andrew Smith ● 988d

I think Horizon is still operating..too big to fail!Any other organisations that remind you of the Post Office?Install unworkable systems and refuse to admit theyaren’t working and shrug up the criticism?

Jackie Elton ● 988d

The telling someone that they are the only person with the problem is something that I hope everyone will take home them as something that needs sharing because it is unlikely to be true.

Philippa Bond ● 988d

'You would think there would be grounds for prosecution of those who knew about the fault and then allowed the situation to escalate.'I can't see why there shouldn't be grounds to prosecute not least for perverting the course of justice over persuading people to please guilty to things that the Post Office could not prove anyway. As Mr. Bates said on T.V. this morning they should also stop this cobblers about paying 'compensation' - it is money that the sub-postmasters are owed, that was taken away from them illegally, fingers should be pulled out speedily.

Vanessa Smith ● 988d

Corruption and liars everywhere you look !

Maggie Dodge ● 987d

'Any other organisations that remind you of the Post Office?Install unworkable systems and refuse to admit theyaren’t working and shrug up the criticism?'Yes, parts of Hounslow council - daft 'traffic schemes' - no consultation with the people most directly affected and a laughingly called 'complaints process' where the people you are complaining about judge the complaint! Talk about marking your own homework, farcical.

Vanessa Smith ● 987d

You missed those responsible drawing obscene amounts of allowances while remaining totally invisible to those that are meant to serve.Incredible parallels.

N V Brooks ● 987d

There is an active petition to have the gong for Vennels rescinded.I think the net should be more broadly cast..what about the return of the 400k handshake?

Keith Iddon ● 987d

Petition signed. We should be holding people from the bottom to the very top accountable.

Vanessa Smith ● 987d

Absolutely, I also, as I have said, want to see her stripped of all licences to officiate as a member of clergy.

N V Brooks ● 986d

Yes vanessa - I am amazed (unless I have missed it) that nothing has been mentioned on radio or  tv today -  why?  . I knew there were problems but the itv programme was really informative- All the disgusting behaviour by the people at the top at the post office - something needs to be looked at now and real compensation before more people die through old age and they will be forgotten . My goodness - I am so angry …

Helen Bamberger ● 986d

And a member of the clergy - wow .

Helen Bamberger ● 986d

Unfortunately there is a culture at the top of business and politics never to apologise, admit mistakes but shift the blame onto another. I was like that early in my working life only later to realise that it far better to acknowledge the problem and go the extra mile to put it right.This way you win back the client who goes on to tell many other potential clients how well they were treated.Treat them badly and they will tell the world.PS You also sleep better at night.

Adrian Irving ● 986d

Yes, she was ordained as a non-stipendary (unpaid) member of clergy in 2004, some eight years before she became CEO of the Post Office.

N V Brooks ● 986d

There's a petition on change.org related to this scandalhttps://chng.it/gC4H6vK96n

Andrew Jones ● 986d

Discussion today on R5 earlier about this and individual responsibility as well as corporate responsibility was call for.I couldn't agree more.It was also highlighted how the government have been supporting the line taken by RM all along.Why would so many people,who all went through and passed very rigourous background checks before being deemed to be suitable to run a post office,suddenly become thieves, and all at once?

Keith Iddon ● 986d

At last bbc news have discussed this

Helen Bamberger ● 986d

As per my previous post an intelligent government would see this issue as an opportunity to do the right thing and cough up the repayment and compensation they are indirectly for responsible. Pronto.God knows they could do with some positive press.Won't happen of course.

Adrian Irving ● 986d

Given the £billions in evaded and avoided tax that could and should be collected which would cover this many times over, FULL compensation for these poor people and those still dyingfromthe contaminated blood scandal should be a government priority.

N V Brooks ● 986d

https://www.computerweekly.com/feature/Post-Office-Horizon-scandal-explained-everything-you-need-to-know#:~:text=This%20saw%20the%20introduction%20of,traditional%20paper%2Dbased%20accounting%20practices.Feature in Computer Weekly dated 3 January 2024

Philippa Bond ● 986d

Yes, those R5 discussions and phone-ins are very interesting and informative.  I'd sort of followed the story some time ago when it was serialized but hearing from those who it had happen to them and seeing the TV programme really brought home the personal devastation, frustration and abandonment caused to so many hard working individuals.  This divide snd conquer method in order to achieve keeps returning in politics too.  Do look at the picture of Alan Bates Post Office.

Philippa Bond ● 986d

I've been following this for years and am very happy the sub-postmasters are getting huge public support. As some of you know, my mother runs Strand on the Green Post Office and I've worked there many times over the last few decades.Has Post Office (PO) HQ cleaned up its act? No. What has not gone widely reported in the media are the following that have occurred in the last year alone:- serious tax problems with the way PO was compensating the victims of the Horizon scandal- falsely asserting that its compensation settlement offers were confidential which handcuffed impacted sub-postmasters- failure to disclose a document to the public inquiry about PO's use of racial identification codes. In the words of the Chair "I am dissatisfied by the approach that has been taken by the Post Office; in my view, their approach demonstrates a lack of clear thinking about the disclosure obligations owed to the Inquiry with which the Post Office must comply and the means by which their obligations can be fulfilled"- awarding its executives bonuses for complying with the Inquiry into itself- misleading Parliament in its annual accounts, including falsely claiming the Chair of the Inquiry had approved PO's compliance with the statutory inquiry- very serious disclosure failings on the part of PO in complying with the Inquiry. In the words of Jason Beer KC, counsel to the Inquiry, in July 2023, it was "grossly unsatisfactory to be told at 10.32pm on the night before an important witness gives evidence that there are 4,767 documents that are at least potentially relevant to a witness who is being called 11 hours and 28 minutes later"- yet more serious disclosure failings in November 2023 where 363,000 documents were not disclosed to the Inquiry the previous year and these may not have been disclosed to sub-postmasters in litigation years ago

Milan Joshi ● 986d

Well done Milan - you say it all. It’s brilliant it’s all coming out now- A lot to be answered to.

Helen Bamberger ● 986d

I think the word 'compensation' is wrong, first the Post Office stole the money - as it wasn't owed by any of the Sub-postmasters in the first place. Many got into even more debt by having to re-mortgage, borrow, take out loans to try and make up the money demanded. So they should really get all of that back and then, and only then, should compensation come into it. That would be for the reputational, financial, mental damage caused and the ongoing trauma of having to keep fighting for what is rightfully theirs.

Vanessa Smith ● 986d

Yes yes - absolutely Vanessa

Helen Bamberger ● 986d

It will be very interesting to see what happens next … I really hope it’s not buried .

Helen Bamberger ● 986d

If the court of public opinion has anything to do with this - it won't get forgotten, that's a far more powerful court than any other.

Vanessa Smith ● 986d

Do listen to the Radio 4 Great Post Office Trial. Started in 2020 but they keep adding episodes. The last few, from November, were looking at  the files uncovered inside the Post Office when instead of getting to the bottom of the  Horizon Problem, they covered it up so they could continue  prosecutions for years. A particularly vile individual was Rob Wilson who headed the prosecutions and steadily resisted any independent review of  the systems.  People like him were in my view far worse than Venells who had little idea of what was going on.  Hers were more a failure to act, Wilson actively lead the prosecutions and worked to stop any fair minded reviews that might uncover the truth and weaken their position.

Jackie Elton ● 985d

I started off by listening to that but it has been going on a long time and our life got the way..  I obviously should go back.  You hear of more workplace cases of bullying hitting the news nowadays only you may not reslise it's happening to you especially when you are being told you are the only one with any problem.  Let's hope in future it rings more bells.  This has caused a lot of collateral damage:https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/22/post-office-it-scandal-victims-say-bosses-should-answer-for-their-role

Philippa Bond ● 985d

I'm confused.  Is this the same organisation that was floated 10 years ago?"Royal Mail’s 10 years since IPO: what has it delivered?Much has changed since Royal Mail floated on the stock market. Its name’s changed, the price of a first-class stamp has doubled, and the share price is down 20%."The proceeds of sale went to HMG, (us) ,and the liability for any shennanigans before flotation is also down to HMG (us).  But at least it looks like HMG got a good price for the sale.

James Roy ● 985d

I know someone personally who was nearlly caught up in this horror stry and it is a true story of torture, driving innocent people to prison so as to be able to tell the government all was well with Horizon.  My friend was on Hrizon training with some of the SUb posmasters who were caught up in it all. She was a Post office Manager and her husband was and IT guy at the time. When she noticed prior to training some things she did not get he went through it with her and said she was right Horizon was not fit for purpose.  She was pregnant at the time of her training s could not go on day they wanted due to a scan and they sent her to go with Subposties.She was very sarcastic all through training ponting out how awful Horizon was.  The trainer said they had found some system anomolies but they would be sorted before it was in place and running. She swapped numbers with some people on the course and a month or so later she got calls asking if she was having problems and she was and she had reported them to PO.She advised them to report the problems but then she found out people were being charged with theft and she was horrified.  She could not believe her concerns were being taken seriously and Subposties were being arrested and charged.  She was at one stage interviewed by the police as her name was on the training list.  The questions she was asked were she considered ridiculous and she told the police all the times she had complained etc.  The police did not believe her and accussed her of theft.  She got out her diary and gave the a list of dates and who she reported things to etc and they then asked her how she purchased her business which was when she told them she was not a Sub postmaster but a manger employed by the post office.  They appologised to her and sent her home said it was a mistake.  SHe was so scared by it and the fact she could have been charged she lef the job after maternity leave and no one thought anything about it.  After her 4 kids grew up she went back to the job and was not surprised to see the reporting system was as hopeless as 10 years earlier but that no one was being arreseted anymore.

Caroline Carney ● 985d

Interesting articlehttps://www.thecanary.co/uk/2024/01/06/mr-bates-vs-the-post-office/

Caroline Carney ● 985d

No, Post Offices are run by The Post Office. Royal Mailis the DELIVERY arm that was floated off.

N V Brooks ● 985d

Radio 5 Live!

Philippa Bond ● 984d

If you e watched the tv series or read about it? I don’t see anything new in this article. Am I missing something? This is sadly just an indication of the country we now live in. Absolutely no justice to be had

Maggie Dodge ● 984d

New people speaking up.  Interviews with those who were portrayed on the TV.  More questions being asked.  Those who won their case still not having been given compensation...

Philippa Bond ● 984d

We now learn Fujitsu may have (allegedly)  been awarded contracts since the post office one.

Nicholas Beard ● 983d

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-01-08/fujitsu-has-won-more-than-150-government-contracts-since-horizon-scandalHow many are new and how many are the maintenance of those already in place?Perhaps it is better the devil you know than the devil you don't?Although initially caused by a computer problem surely the most egregious problem with the Post Office's Horizon project is in the treatment of the subpostmasters and mistresses with the denial, cover-up and attempted isolation with the insistance that each of them when asking for help had a problem and nobody else?  After all who amongst all your friends is likely to understand a new bespoke system? More nowadays perhaps but 20 years ago?It would be interesting to hear more about the splitting of The Post Office from The Royal Mail and the involvement and the control and oversight of that right from the top down.  Did these subpostmasters and mistresses just become collateral damage to a grand project?

Philippa Bond ● 983d

And a big banana in Fujitsu has been making large donations to the Conservative Party.

Roger Talbot ● 983d

Vennells has handed back her CBE, time for Ed Davey to be a little more open with the truth.

N V Brooks ● 983d

Besides Ed Davey, another entitled Sir doesn't remain unscathed from this P.O. Horror showSir Keir was the DPP ( Director of Public Prosecutions) back in the day, and could have spotted the obvious red flag and taken action.He chose not to.I hope both these men think back on their non involvements and feel ashamed of themselves.

Denis I. Fox ● 983d

In fairness, I'm not sure much of the blame for this can be laid at Keir Starmer's door.

Davey Harris ● 981d

Where does the buck stop then?This article is hardly supportive of Labour's position,https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/post-office-scandal-keir-starmer-b2476524.html

N V Brooks ● 981d

Stephen Bradshaw - what a scumbag - and still employed by the post office apparently.

Andrew Jones ● 981d

He sounds an absolute delight!

N V Brooks ● 980d

The real scandal is that all the various Post Office Bradshaws were just doing exactly the job required of them and as instructed by the upper echelons of the legal department and higher management, as Bradshaw himself made clear and which I hope the inquiry will eventually confirm.  However blunt and direct Bradshaw might appear, it would be wrong if he were to be hung out to dry by those above him who were really responsible.

Peter Evans ● 980d

Looked to me that Stephen Bradshaw was trying to deflect blame onto everyone else and there was no contrition or acknowledgment that he was in any way responsible for the anguish and suffering experienced by his victims.I only hope that he has no wife or family as they don’t deserve the opprobrium that I hope is coming his way.

Andrew Jones ● 980d

I’d put money on it that they don’t.  They’llJust be thinking about covering their own backsides

Maggie Dodge ● 980d

With criticism starting of  his visit to Branson’s island, I fear this wonderful man may end up along side Cpt Tom Moore , not sure if that rank is cotrect. .

Maggie Dodge ● 980d

What a complete contrast the witness Chris Jackson is compared to Stephen Bradshaw.

Andrew Jones ● 980d

https://www.thelawyer.com/how-justice-done-in-post-office-scandal/

Andrew Jones ● 980d

Never missing a chance to blow my own trumpet(as no one else does) I am pleased to say I played a part in the production of the series.When I say small I should really say tiny. Employed as a supporting artist I'm the tall, devilishly handsome, intelligent looking person 😂 walking along the village path more or less at the beginning of the first episode.I have to say what a delightful village not far from Biggin Hill.

Adrian Irving ● 980d

An Oscar winning performance? And so modest too!Seriously though - please someone tell me, what sort of a moron signs a statement that they haven't written themselves? And who 'investigates' something that they haven't a clue about?

Vanessa Smith ● 980d

"what sort of a moron signs a statement that they haven't written themselves?"Everyday CEOs and CFOs of corporations of varying size are signing accounts and supporting statements, and in the vast majority of cases those signing are relying on their underlings who have prepared the accounts, and the auditors who have checked them.Eventually when the muck hits the fan, the buck stops at the top.

James Roy ● 980d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67941495

N V Brooks ● 979d

New systems put in place where nobody actually knew how they worked or what to expect.  What a shambles.Wasn't there an Amazon contract on offer as well.  I wonder how that would have worked.  Probably no better if the staff in charge of it don't know how it works either.I still can't believe that Helpline which told each and everyone that they were the only person with the problem.  If there is nothing that we learn (and I painfully went through that scenario years ago) it is NEVER to listen to that sort of bullying, lying and isolating rubbish.  There has to always be a better solution put in place. Where WAS ALL the management?  Didn't they meet each other or did they all just stay in their own offices enjoying their status without communicating.  I've seen that before.How much more is there to come?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67944525

Philippa Bond ● 979d

https://theconversation.com/post-office-scandal-what-the-lack-of-action-tells-you-about-britains-polarised-politics-220958

Philippa Bond ● 979d

Billions of contracts:https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2024/01/post-office-scandal-fujitsu-blame

Philippa Bond ● 979d