Forum Topic

Fire Regulations compliant front doors (internal) for flats.

Does anyone have any recommendations for who to use to replace our individual flat front doors please? Can this be done by a competent carpenter to comply with the latest fire regs or does it need to be done by a specialist company? I’ve researched on line, spoken to London Fire Service and called a couple of estate offices. However it’s the responsibility of the leaseholder to ensure compliance and I’ve yet to find out the best reliable and cost effective way to ensure the end result is compliant. It appears to be a very expensive job so I’d much appreciate some advice and tips please. If anyone wishes to send me a pm please send it to joygriffiths@hotmail.co.uk. Thank you and Happy Christmas to all.

Joy Griffiths ● 514d14 Comments

that developers and whoever constructs a block aren't accountable for problems in the construction is odd and unfair.I heard someone interviewed who had bought a new flat that was then assessed as having no value, due to poor construction. A rare and extreme example of less extremem issues that seem to be more common. He commented that if he bought a kettle or any consumer item that proved to be not fit for purpose, he would have legal recourse against the shop that sold it. There seems to be no such recourse against anyone if the new flat you buy turns out to be not fit for purpose.

Kathleen Healy ● 510d

Wood material balconies are indeed a problem and no longer encouraged.  I'd watch out for any Bellway developments around here, as they had a balcony fire in a new block of theirs in Barking a few years ago, where the wooden balconies were found to be inadequate, despite Bellway's belief that they were OK.A wider problem is that Leaseholders often have to foot the bill for putting these things right, when you'd expect the original developer to take responsibility for something they've only recently built.  If a construction fault is found in a car, the manufacturer has to recall them and fix them at no cost.

Peter Evans ● 510d

Agree Peter. Much as we moan about the approach of the MAs where I live (in Brentford) and the service charges, quite a substantial bit of our service charge this year was employing specialists to closely check each flat door, including measuring gaps, checking closers etc etc. All the flats have the same door, installed 20-25 years ago by the original shoddy builder. Apart from the door inspection they dealt with the automatic-closing corridor doors and replaced or refurbished them. They also checked out the risers for gas and electric. These were supposed to have floors closing out each riser but the contractors didn't bother with this and the freeholder and building inspectors (private company) didn't notice this rather fundamental flaw. I think all this is now done but I understand they also have to do something with the balconies which have wooden flooring which is now apparently deemed as a risk.

Guy Lambert ● 511d

I'd still be concerned that your Building Management don't appear to understand the legal requirement placed upon them by the new regulations to do regular door inspections. This also suggests they might be unacceptably casual in other areas.  It might be time to go for Right to Manage and appoint your own people!

Peter Evans ● 511d

Dear All, firstly thank you for your collective input, simply brilliant! Secondly I wish you all a great Christmas and New Year. Down to business. I’m in East Sheen in a small 10 unit block. Our MA has passed this fire door scenario onto us leaseholders. I, one of 10 leaseholders, is orchestrating the initial inspection and overview which has clarified that all our 1973-ish doors are ‘notional’ doors but need replacing due not being suitable for updating. I’m aware that companies are set up to deal with the latest regs… even though there are less expensive alternatives that fulfil the compliance requirement. I no really appreciate all of your input. If anyone knows of a good carpenter who can do the fitting and provide tge certification I’d be delighted to hear about them. Happy Christmas and thank you 😊

Joy Griffiths ● 512d

It depends what needs doing, as many original doors are substantial enough to be made compliant without replacing them, by adding suitable seals and closers.  A formal door inspection should determine what needs doing.Certainly after Grenfell, there's the deafening sound of stable doors being closed, with potentially over-elaborate legislation and guidelines rushed out to compensate for years of increasingly loose regulation.  For example, the new cladding regulations had a huge impact, particularly when applied to many unintended buildings. Hitherto, nobody bothered much about flat doors, but now they're a big deal.  Of course there's money to be made out of all this, but then much of the work probably needed doing years ago.

Peter Evans ● 513d

If your flats are agrranged in small blocks and you know your neighbours, it may be possible to liase, agree on a new door and fittings and arrange a carpenter qualified to issue certificates. For larger blocks or where flats are mostly let, so hard to coordinate, it probably needs to be done by the managing agent. That is likely to be more expensive though.This is a bit of a gravy train situation.

Kathleen Healy ● 513d

Here’s some more detailed legal guidance on the position with flat doors: https://www.kdllaw.com/legal-updates/whose-door-is-it-anywayThis confirms that, whether they like it or not, your landlord/freeholder/building management is ultimately responsible for fire safety in your block, which, under the most recent legislation, includes the condition of the flat doors.  Just telling/leaving leaseholders to get on with it isn’t sufficient, and is unlikely to give consistent level of compliance throughout the block. This article also suggests that organising a ‘package deal’ across the block is the most effective way of handling this. If your building management is being so hands off about this, I’d ask to see the latest Fire Risk Assessment for your block, as it’s quite likely that more needs doing to fix communal doors, emergency lighting, signage and possibly alarms.

Peter Evans ● 513d

If someone has city and guilds qualifications in carpentry they can do a half day, fairly cheap course to qualify to install and ceritfy FD60 doors.It isn't rocket science. Door has to be solid and a cerytain thickness, there has to be smoke proofing between the door and frame and the frame must be sound. The door has to have a compliant automtic closer and compliant hinges and fit well in the frame. An FD60 oak door blank cost about £300. Door closers and hinges £50 cpoliant letter box £50 plus a days labour.

Kathleen Healy ● 513d

Hi Joy if I'm guessing correctly, you're referring to our managing agents Haus, who really aren't fit for purpose. I have a flat in the block and have engaged a company to fit a compliant fire door and surround. Shall I send you details?

Jim Brown ● 513d

Again, thank you Peter. Luckily I have a little property management experience but it is limited. I have taken on the initial investigation so initiate this process. Interestingly 2 of our units have been sold without the doors complying to the regs which really surprises me. I look forward to hearing from you either by email ie joygriffiths@hotmail.co.uk or  07984 802205.. many thanks Joy

Joy Griffiths ● 513d

Not at all helpful building management. Even if leaseholders are responsible for their own doors, it needs some organising to get them all checked and fixed if necessary. Expecting each leaseholder to sort this out for themselves is totally unrealistic and impractical, for if all the doors aren’t done properly it could result in an unsafe building, which your building management remains responsible for. In any event, under new regulations they’re required to inspect flat doors periodically and report on them, even if you have to pay to fix them. I’ll send you more information directly.

Peter Evans ● 513d

Thank you Peter. Our managing agents have not given us any information as we are responsible for our own front doors. They have simply told us that we need to ensure they are fire reg compliant and visually identical. Are you able to tell me who you used for your doors and roughly the cost involved please? I am currently trying to ascertain whether we need a specialist fire door company or whether we need to very good joiner who is able to install the doors to fire reg standard then we have them all certificated as compliant. I am currently obtaining quotes from both kinds of contractors but would be very happy to have more detail from you please. Thank you

Joy Griffiths ● 514d

If you’re in a block of flats, the Building Management might suggest suitable contractors, as the work will need to be certificated as meeting the requirements of whatever Fire Risk Assessment you’ve had. Whoever did the FRA might suggest a suitable contractor. In a block I’m involved with, the Building Management came up with a package deal which leaseholders signed up to and paid their share of, which also meant all the new doors matched and were compliant.

Peter Evans ● 514d