Forum Topic

Cars & Cyclists

Can someone explain to me the logic behind car owners paying road tax and far more significant tax for the creation of costly cycle lanes. Cyclists don't pay anything for the access and use of a cycle lane and yet they want the same rights and opinions as tax paying car owners.This idea that we will get rid of fuel and cars is frankly poppycock, we could talk more realistically about different renewable fuel and more efficient cars that work towards zero carbon that's more likely.Which leads onto... why is Chiswick High Road so congested with these cycle lanes that don't actually work to benefit anyone, compared to the amount of money spent?

John Bird ● 458d101 Comments

“Not sure how an adult can supervise a child cycling on the pavement whilst paying attention to their own safety riding on the main carriageway. Seems almost as daft a proposal as CS9”It’s totally ridiculous to allow children to cycle on pavements when they are a menace to pedestrians!!  There are plenty of unused cycle tracks for children to cycle on. Why doesn’t anyone use them? 

Steve Taylor ● 405d

No! The fact that you believe VED funds road access and maintenance means you should better inform yourself of the taxation system in Britain and what it funds

Simeon Gill ● 405d

Not sure how an adult can supervise a child cycling on the pavement whilst paying attention to their own safety riding on the main carriageway. Seems almost as daft a proposal as CS9

Simeon Gill ● 405d

Instead of ‘work’ read parks 🤷‍♀️

Maggie Dodge ● 405d

I have no objection to children cycling, all of my grandchildren do so. All are under 10 and do so on the pavement with whichever parent is supervising doing so on the road. It is good exercise for all of them. Trying to get my head around young children cycling "outside of work".

N V Brooks ● 405d

As we are told constantly, we don’t have a god given right to drive. Guess what there’s no desperate need for very young children to cycle,  outside of work or. garden. When they are secondary school age then may the time to think about it

Maggie Dodge ● 405d

There is no criminal liability for children under the age of 10, and it is tacitly accepted by everyone that the pavement is where younger children will ride.

N V Brooks ● 405d

You're right, there was no real reason to mention you Maggie.The fact that we usually don't agree doesn't bother me, it's just something that I'm aware of, and I'm sure you are also aware of it.You seem remarkably sensitive about the feelings of drivers though. Perhaps if I'd said that "It just takes one motorist who has a lapse of attention, or is driving badly, for a tragedy to come about."Would you consider that to be less disgusting?

Andrew Jones ● 406d

I think a lapse of attention would in fact be the drivers fault as part of a failure to drive with care and attention, especially at a junction that is currently under a for easy traffic control, so no excuse at all.. As for a fault of causing a tragedy, presumably a death of the child in question, a driver under the circumstance highlighted, with a lapse of attentin killing someone on a restricted controlled junction should reasonably expect jail time from public prosecution and died into penury by civil prosecution. Not sure "ooh sorry officer I had a moment" would cut it as a defence

Simeon Gill ● 406d

Hmmm..and I wonder why we have all these crappy cycles networks sprouting up, given that the entitled father is liable to prosecution if he were to accompany his kid on the pavement, about which the impatient and unforgiving motorists revealing themselves and their proclivities (let's hope they do not end up in a rta with a cyclist as all the evidence of intent has been written here to be seen by the steps crime squad who investigate these incidents) on this forum would be equally engaged

Simeon Gill ● 406d

Because it is a well known fact that electric cars being the kerb weight of just below a 10 foot Luton van do not consume any energy at all, cause any road wear, and do not create any more health harming particulate s than a standard pre Euro 6 diesel car

Simeon Gill ● 406d

....and I pay more tax than most, which by your arguement should grant me more exclusive rights than anyone in the 40 % tax band and below clogging up the roads and impeding my journey. And whilst we are at it why should I fund the NHS for any of these people too., duh

Simeon Gill ● 406d

Just so you don't think that it never happens:https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/police-respond-backlash-after-cyclists-28456852?int_source=nba

Philippa Bond ● 406d

Firstly , I don’t know why you bother to mention me ,just state your point of view. Obviously the fact that we don’t agree bothers you, but personally I don’t think it’s of interest to any one but you. Secondly if the dad and child are at fault then to say a driver’s lapse of attention could be the cause of a tragedy is pretty disgusting. Let’s put the blame where it belongs. If the cyclist is at fault, how does the blame end up on the driver . Why are they supposed to compensate for the cyclists stupidity, or otherwise get the blame for the “tragedy”. .Not fair and not true.

Maggie Dodge ● 406d

9 times out of 10 I find myself in disagreement with Maggie’s POV, and I can’t see that changing anytime soon, neither of us are likely to convert the other.Strikes me that the roundabout on Acton Lane near Sainsbury’s is entirely the wrong place for the older person, probably the dad, to be getting someone who is so young to be cycling along.It’s highly irresponsible if the facts are as Pete said (and there’s nothing really to suggest they aren’t). And whether the child was 4, 5 or 6 that doesn’t change things in my book.The last post I of Maggie’s is one I agree with - and if they were going from one side if Acton Lane to the other, getting off and doing this as pedestrians would have been the responsible thing to do. It just takes one motorist who has a lapse of attention, or is driving badly to cause a tragedy.

Andrew Jones ● 406d

So roughly how old do you think a child that looks about 4 is likely to be Philippa 5 perhaps.  The point is really that he needed his dad’s assistance and should not therefore have been on the road. I’m sure you agree

Maggie Dodge ● 407d

Ah, my bad for having thought you actually wanted to have a thoughtful discussion.

Francis Sheehan ● 408d

......my bad it was a dwarf

Pete Smith ● 408d

My phone ran out of juice - cycling and swimming are life skills.BTW There's no actual evidence that the child seen was four years' old.  That is just an inflammatory statement.Cycle lanes and pavements rarely lead you door to door without you  needing to cross any road.

Philippa Bond ● 408d

Cycling proficiency was not offered until at least the first year of Junior School (age7+) this would not have helped culpable father and his 4 year old.If the child had not been taught basic roadcraft then it should not be on the road but on the pavement with the parent riding on the road beside them, as happens virtually everwhere else.Cycling is not a life, utter nonsense, like motoring it is primarilly a form of transport.

N V Brooks ● 408d

You’ve surpassed yourself Phillipa. You’re officially unhinged

Maggie Dodge ● 408d

Phllipa, On the radio right now is David Bowies space oddity,a great hour on David Bowie.May I respectfully ask you to come back to earth?

Pete Smith ● 408d

Apologies for mis-spelling your name, Philippa.

Colin Jordan ● 408d

Phillipa, many cyclists do stop at red lights, but most of the ones I see going through red lights are not 'jumping lights to be ahead of the inconsiderate drivers', they are simply sailing through red lights as though they didn't exist, often with no drivers anywhere near them. This reductive portrayal of motorists as crazed potential killers and cyclists as saintly victims is not helpful.

Colin Jordan ● 408d

There IS training for cyclists and children used to learn this when they were at school.  Unfortunately there was a period over which it was dropped and we have been paying the price for that as they have taken to jumping lights to be ahead of the inconsiderate drivers many of whom never learnt to cycle and don't give them the as the more vulnerable road user the necessary space when overtaking.Cycling like swimming and good manners is a life

Philippa Bond ● 408d

Easy ,hand myself in for child cruelty. 4 year 4 year old in the middle of London traffic.  Beyond my thought process.The guy probably puts his seat right back on a plane

Pete Smith ● 408d

The man and the child in your story, Pete, were riding their bikes where they were meant to, i.e. the street.Had they been on the pavement I'm sure you'd have been outraged at seeing them doing so. Danger to pedestrians, running amok, yadda yadda yadda.So, what would you'd like them to do?And maybe the guy was saying 'mind my child' because, as is the norm in that roundabout (or the one by Chiswick park station, or for that matter most junctions in Chiswick) a good half of drivers isn't indicating or giving the right of way to what they consider as 'lesser beings', i.e. pedestrians or cyclists.

Francis Sheehan ● 408d

Yes the choice should be removed. In the same way motorists access to roads is blocked. I’d like choices

Maggie Dodge ● 409d

Some cyclists choose to be amongst traffic when they could use a cycle lane.

Janice Evans ● 409d

Really! Cyclists are vulnerable ,  yes, that’s why they need to be responsible on the roads.Wear high viz, don’t do stupid things like jump lights. Motorists are trained, pass tests. We don’t need lectures on taking responsibility for others, it’s a given but it doesn’t mean that cyclists can delegate their safety toothers. As for no age limit. There’s an age when you have your wits about you and it’s definitely not the same age as when you can ride a bike. Thats coordination and balance. At 5 say,  it’s a great skill, but they need to be on pavements!

Maggie Dodge ● 409d

But we all know the last highway code was hijacked by the Cycling Groups,lobbyists,nutters.To me it's all about responsibility.That man had a bad case of MCF my child first and Chiswick is full of them.Anyway life is all about opinions so we agree to differ,no problem 

Pete Smith ● 409d

https://www.rospa.com/media/documents/road-safety/family-cycle-ride-guide.pdfhttps://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-highway-code-8-changes-you-need-to-know-from-29-january-2022#:~:text=People%20cycling%20have%20priority%20when,signs%20or%20markings%20indicate%20otherwise.

Philippa Bond ● 409d

Then the law and the idiot father is an ass....A kid that looks 4 year old in the middle of Acton Lane Chiswick end wobbling about surrounded by cars and you think that is acceptable.

Pete Smith ● 409d

There is no minimum age for cyclists.  Since cyclists are one of the more vulnerable categories of road users more vulberable that motorists it is up to motorists to take more care and give them the space and time and give them the right of way that the Highway Code dictates.Have you read the Highway Code recently and noted the more recent changes?  If not you'd better catch up with the changes before your lack of knowledge causes you and a lot of other people a very big problem.

Philippa Bond ● 409d

I meant that the boy was on his own cycle not on the back of the clown

Pete Smith ● 409d

Having a vent on the thread.Sainsburys mini roundabout today traffic everywhere ,some clown individual having his child not more than 4 years old on his bike in the middle of that lot,clown shouting at cars "mind my boy"  as he tries to turn his wheels on the roundabout. Do they think its a village In Hampshire. I would like to state I was not born despising most cyclists

Pete Smith ● 409d

Murrumbidgee?  https://cleancitiescampaign.org/

Philippa Bond ● 412d

Soon the bus stops will be literally floating with all the rains, on another note has anyone commented about the river Maude cycle lanes. Seeing as it will flood regularly is this a wise use of taxpayers money?

John Bird ● 413d

Floating Bus Stops leaked data shows 60% OF CYCLISTS REFUSE TO GIVE WAY and his own bike tsar admits they “FEEL DANGEROUS”

Maggie Dodge ● 414d

Copied from XHave I missed the NFBUK campaign to remodel the floating bus stops at Victoria Station? - the ones where you have to cross a live taxi rank & 4 lanes of bus traffic located in the middle of a massive traffic gyratory but careful there are a couple of Lime bikes parked by Pret

Maggie Dodge ● 415d

It gave me so  much pleasure Andrew

Maggie Dodge ● 417d

How rude Maggie.

Andrew Jones ● 418d

Do button it Philippa

Maggie Dodge ● 418d

Maggie you complained that you wanted it to go back to just the way it was - only change has always happened - that flyover wasn't always there and there are one way and no entry streets that obviously weren't always like that.

Philippa Bond ● 419d

You manage to make it sounds as if driving where you want to is a sun. Wanting to drive on roads going where you need to go is not abnormal. Changes for the sake of it or to make lives difficult is abnormal. There’s no rhyme or reason that justifies it

Maggie Dodge ● 419d

I thought the issue was that you can't just drive wherever you want just exactly as you used to.  That is what has been complained about.  Changes are always happening and it is more difficult for some to adapt than others.  I know people who have been fined because they used to live in the wider area and travel around the area a lot and after they moved away tried to come back using the old routes that they used to use.

Philippa Bond ● 419d

Im afraid that avoids answering the issue at all.

Mark Talbot ● 420d

Some traffic restrictions don't make it a private estate.  Learning the Highway Code and reading road signs helps to avoid problems.  Satnav directions directing all traffic off main roads and into residential streets has increased the speed as well as the amount of traffic all over the country.

Philippa Bond ● 420d

Philippa, the fact remains you were insinuating it was old news being posted when nothing could be further from the truth. It’s current, and it’s very much news as no one is currently able to refute the compelling data being presented on traffic counts on peripheral roads to LTNs in that area. Reason being no one can as the videos and screen shots of FOI data is there in full colour. It’s the very same issue residents on the A316 now have following the creation of Grove Park Private Estate.

Mark Talbot ● 421d

“Waterloo Bridge has cycle lanes on both sides. Cyclists would still rather use the pavement & scythe through people waiting for a bus. “Floating “ bus stops? You cannot be serious.”

Maggie Dodge ● 421d

Not a clue

Maggie Dodge ● 422d

Not at all Maggie.  Once you've started searching for anything and everything that will suit your little cause you will be sent anything.  I'm not spending all my time checking to see how many times they have have been posted and reposted etc etc. It turns into Chinese Whispers.

Philippa Bond ● 422d

Philippa puts her size 6 in her mouth again

Maggie Dodge ● 423d

10:28 on 28.12.23, the day of said posts, is not really old social media posts?

Mark Talbot ● 423d

Carl - what exactly is your definition of a 'tree-hugging wokie?If this is the Oxford Dictionary definition of 'woke':"adjective. /wəʊk/ /wəʊk/ (informal, often disapproving) ​aware of social and political issues, especially racism This word is often used in a disapproving way by people who think that some other people are too easily upset about these issues, or talk too much about them in a way that does not change anything."Then what exactly is the definition of the opposite of 'woke'?

Philippa Bond ● 423d

Perhaps you should take a break from trawling all the old social media posts that the algorhythms send your way?

Philippa Bond ● 423d

Happy Christmas Maggie?  Hope you enjoy the results of the Great Christmas Tree Massacre that you'll see the evidenceof growing in the parks very soon.  Some people just can't see the wood for the trees.

Philippa Bond ● 423d

Compelling videos also attached to the post that no one like Paul Campbell has been able to go on and disprove. Such a shame the poster hasn’t the time to do similar in the W4 area.

Mark Talbot ● 425d

From a North London site:The data being collected is all gamed……. I’ve proven this ….. they showed ZERO CARS ON MY ROAD for 32 minutes while road was full of cars ….. @JourneysPlaces lied to us stating there is a reduction….. they continue to harm our children while making millions in revenue for the council ….. they are missing thousands of cars calling it evaporated traffic… it’s all lies … @RachelAldred then states LTNs work …..

Maggie Dodge ● 425d

The tree huggers who cut down trees to make way for cycle lanes. Happy Christmas

Maggie Dodge ● 429d

“ Road tax, where on earth have you been?”Everyone knows what road tax is; even pedants like you.

Steve Taylor ● 429d

“ Not those with electric vehicles. Fact!!”Yes you are correct but thankfully that’s changing and EV owners will soon have to pay Road tax. The exchequer needs it.

Steve Taylor ● 429d

“cyclist earning £150k salary” enough said.

Mark Talbot ● 429d

I believe it's pressure from the tree hugging wokies who seem to just ask and they get, like spoilt children who stomp until they get the prize.

Carl Johns ● 429d

https://fullfact.org/online/electric-hybrid-did-not-start-luton-airport-car-park-fire/

Philippa Bond ● 432d

C"yclists don't pay anything for the access and use of a cycle lane and yet they want the same rights and opinions as tax paying car owners."John's argument appears to be that people who pay more tax should be granted greater "rights and opinions" than those who pay less tax. So I guess he is arguing that a cyclist earning £150k salary should have more privileges than a pensioner driving an ICE vehicle? Controversial with far-reaching consequences for how we order society  .....

Paul Campbell ● 433d

Road tax, where on earth have you been?

Mark Frost ● 433d

Not those with electric vehicles. Fact!!

Andrew Jones ● 433d

The Luton fire was caused by hybrid battery.

Steve Taylor ● 433d

“ Cyclists pay taxes as everyone else who’s employed,”Indeed, but motorists pay additional tax in the form of the so called ‘road tax’No myth - just fact!!

Steve Taylor ● 433d

Hi Maggie, I think there are two ways the new road layout and bike lane is not as  safe as it could be. The first is the number of people on bikes who fail to stop at lights and zebra crossings. As someone who regularly uses the bike lane, I notice too many people doing this. The second issue is, I believe, far more prevalent and is when cars fly out of side streets into the bike lane. We know this has led to serious accidents and, from my recollection, deaths. From my experience, the number of bikes making Chiswick High Road unsafe for pedestrians is minuscule compared to the number of cars making it unsafe for people on bikes.

Edward Kent ● 435d

Dirty tricks across London to bring in anti car measures. “Yet another complaint against Greenwich Council has been submitted to the ICO, this time after claiming officers had corresponded with emergency services about proposed #LTNs, when all the evidence suggests they didn't. “

Maggie Dodge ● 456d

Isn’t it more a case of cyclists own cars. Which is absolutely fine until cyclists tell those of us who don’t cycle, can’t cycle or don’t want to cycle for a variety of reasons, that me must not drive. They seem to think they know our driving habits too when of course they can’t possibly. All very tiresome

Maggie Dodge ● 456d

Thanks for that important update

David Harmes ● 456d

Car owners own bikes and use themWhat's the problem Your just being very silly and generally shit stirring.

Dick Greenleigh ● 456d

No worries. I saw a Tesla fire nearr Wandsworth Bridge Road. It was intense and the LFB were having trouble controlling it.

N V Brooks ● 456d

The Fire Services have said that there is an awful lot of flammable plastic in cars nowadays.  They also said that there was no sprinkler system at that car park and there had been a similar and previous car park fire like that where the car park had to be demolished as a result of the fire.

Philippa Bond ● 456d

Diesel fuel does not normally burn in the way that petrol does, so I wonder what the issue was with the vehicle at Luton Airport that created such an inferno ?

Richard Greenhough ● 456d

I think I have it wrong on the initial vehicle looks like it was just a diesel,my apologies

David Harmes ● 456d

VERY few Diesel Hybrids on UK roads  and the batteries on those that are sold are so small that it wouldn't have gone up like tthat Diesel did.

N V Brooks ● 456d

Also have my doubts, it's impossible to put out fire caused by batteries youhave to leave it to burn itself out, maybe they don't want to worry us too much.

Janice Evans ● 456d

Yes, they're obviously too scared of the power of the cycle lobby to speak the truth!

Robert Fish ● 456d

I know that thanks though ,wish I could edit here I would re word it putting it less strongly.Sorry I am not 100 convinced it was not a diesel hybrid.  The way the car is burning up with no smoke like a lithium battery would which I have seen a video of for example.

David Harmes ● 456d

Could be true but the photographs looked very dramatic! I recall the emergency services were adamant that LTNs didn’t hold them up, despite numerous videos proving otherwise. I think sadly they say what they are told to say.

Maggie Dodge ● 456d

Sorry, buut Bedfordshire Fire Service are sure it was a Diesel that went up.

N V Brooks ● 456d

The claim that the Luton fire was started by a hybrid car is false. In response to rumours about the cause of the fire, Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service confirmed that it started in a diesel car. The evidence available to date suggests that electric cars are much less likely to catch fire than those with ic engines.

Robert Fish ● 456d

Don't forget why the Luton airport car park inferno was so bad. Started by a hybrid cars Electric battery and then all the other Electric batteries exploding  ausing carnage.

David Harmes ● 456d

Electric vehicles have also been shown to pump 25% more shredded particulates into the atmosphere due to tyre wear due to being much heavier because of the batteries - not only adding to atmospheric particulate pollution but also increasing wear and tear on the highway surfaces.

David Kerr ● 456d

Too right. A BMW iX pulled up next to my (not small) Ford on the GWR. Absolutely huge but, being electric, it pays no CC.They will be paying full CC from 25 December 2025 though.They will also pay VED (again quite rightly) from 1 April 2025 £10 for the first year and then £180 per year.

N V Brooks ● 456d

Hopefully congestion charge too!

Mark Talbot ● 456d

I believe they will have to pay in 2025

Philippa Bond ● 456d

Road tax is a bargain for what you get, the ability to burn all over the UK for work and leisure. Compared to car insurance costs it is negligible. But no good reason why electric cars shouldn’t pay same as highest bracket ICE, even more given the additional damage they cause.

Mark Talbot ● 456d

You might want to ask why electric car owners don't pay any road tax / VED.

Al Webber ● 457d

Perhaps the myth that the C9 is a success, and worth the expense, who ever paid for it should be put to bed. I don’t think Chiswick is a great place now for anyone. Cyclists won’t admit it’s a mess and less safe of course.  But being disliked by the majority is the price they are paying. It’s also likely to be the reason cycling numbers aren’t going up as hoped. Who wants to admit they’re the cause of what we now live with or that they are in the same club as PaulCampbell 🤷‍♀️

Maggie Dodge ● 457d

VED takes up some 7bn per year, whereas the budget of the highways agency alone is £4bn.Cyclists pay taxes as everyone else who’s employed, I think it’s high time that this myth that only motorists are being fleeced is put in the dustbin of lies together with Boris’s red Brexit bus, among others.

Francis Sheehan ● 457d

Chiswick High Road is now a very much more dangerous road and difficult to cross for pedestrians.  It is confusing and divided into so many different bits and will surely result in higher pedestrian casualties.

Rae Lewis ● 457d

Pedestrians also pay for the roads!  This is a reallocation of road space as pedestrians are run off pavements by cycles, motorbikes, cars, vans and lorries ie all other transport - much of which is also illegally parked.

Philippa Bond ● 457d

Really there should be some financial incentive for the cyclist paid for through a 'Tractor tax'. That will cut the gridlock.

Mark Frost ● 458d

It seems strange why the govenment is still allowing people with electric vehicles to not pay the so called road tax, with more people changing to electric cars the revenue collected will be less and less.

Nick Pallister ● 458d

It has been a long time since Vehicle Excise Duty was ring-fenced as road tax. The cost of cycle lanes is met from general taxation, which is paid by motorists and cyclists alike.

Richard Greenhough ● 458d

Discuss?

Keith Iddon ● 458d