Forum Topic

The District Line closure and gridlock

I totally agree about the Piccadilly Line stopping at Turnham Green when there's no service on the District Line... and permanently for that matter. It's a shame that the link to Samira Sylvester's petition in your story doesn't work, as I for one would happily sign it.As well as causing gridlock in the area (I avoided using the rail replacement bus for that very reason, as it was crawling down Chiswick High Road), and people having to allow more time for usually simple journeys (it took me 2 hours 5 minutes, door to door, to get to the South Bank yesterday), it's also creating more revenue for TFL. I took the 94 to Oxford Street, intending to take the 139 to Waterloo, within the hour on the same £1.75 fare, but the 139 (when it eventually came) was terminating at Piccadilly Circus, so I ended up paying for a tube journey as well, to avoid being late. Not good!Having lived in the area long enough to remember when the Piccadilly Line stopped at Turnham Green all day on Sundays, as well as early and late, it really is time that TFL bit the bullet and made it a permanent stop. Turnham Green should be the next Baron's Court, I say, and would be just as busy, if not busier. Exasperated of Chiswick

Richard Evans ● 1055d41 Comments

I had the misery of needing to go into town twice on Thursday and it added an extra 3 hours to my journey. Having caught a 267 to Hammersmith (no sign of a rail replacement bus), I then got down on the platform to find that the Piccadilly Line had a signal failure and I had to get another bus and go via Shepherd's Bush.I was working in Chelmsford on Saturday. I allowed an hour to get to Ealing Broadway to pick up Crossrail only to find that the 65 detoured from Ealing Road back to Chiswick and then got stuck in traffic taking a very roundabout route back to EalingHaving got to Liverpool Street in just enough time for my connection, I then discovered that the train had been cancelled. I was able to find an alternative and made my next connection by minutes - a coach which had been hired as there were no train services running from Sheffield eastwards. It was one of the most stressful journeys I have ever made. Why were there no rail replacement buses for Ealing Broadway?I might add that my journey home quite late at night was much easier because by then the Piccadilly Line was scheduled to stop.I too remember when we had a full day Sunday service and nothing has changed since then that I know of. Piccadilly line trains use the local lines and District line trains are less frequent (21 per hour vs 24 in the peak). Why couldn't Rayners Lane trains skip Barons Court and stop at Turnham Green instead, thereby leaving a fast service to Heathrow.

Charlotte Kasner ● 1055d

"A petition on the matter has been set up by Samira Sylvester, a Chiswick resident of over six years, requesting that, as a matter of policy, TfL stops Piccadilly line trains at Turnham Green when there is no service on the District Line."She says there is no technical or engineering reason why this shouldn’t happen..."This has been covered dozens of times, and long before Samira the train timetabling expert arrived on the scene a mere six years ago.In brief, the Piccadilly line can't stop outside of the current early/late times because of 1) the fleet (already well past its sell-by date) size, and 2) its signalling capacity.The fleet issue will be dealt with in 2025 (train testing now underway in Germany). The signals... much more complicated given London Underground is one of the only world metros that relies so heavily on its farebox income (you'll need to speak to Boris about that one).For those who think this is about TfL being spiteful or belligerent, have a quick Google for the facts. They're more robust than Samira's "no technical or engineering reason" explanation.

Mike Smith ● 1055d

You can stop the picadilly line at TG.One crossover exists coming out of the tunnel from earls court and vice versa.That cossover is located entering hammersmith station and exiting the other direction.You simply put the picadilly line trains you want to stop at TG be that just uxbridge bound onto the disctrict line entering hammersmith and it stops on the district line platform at TGT. Plenty of time and breaks for it to leave and cross back over before acton.The current 73 stock picadilly line trains can use the district line without issues. Google it and your find videos showing the picadilly line trains using the district line

Julian Pavey ● 1055d

Here is one

Julian Pavey ● 1055d

I would also point out the minimal publicity of the 4 day tube closure. Whilst I sign up to the TFL weekly update and was able to make alternative plans, it was clear from walking past the station at Turnham Green that many using the station had no idea in advance that the District Line wasn’t running. There was a board tucked away inside the station with a poster, barely visible. There should have been more prominent notices warning of the forthcoming disruption at all the stations affected.

Alison Gascoigne ● 1055d

Crossovers between Picc/District were removed (as part of PLU) earlier this year.

Mike Smith ● 1055d

if it means what I think it means, how was this supposed to be an upgrade??

Rae Lewis ● 1055d

Well thats strangeIve just checked a video from august and the crossover from Picc/District entering hammersmith is still in place. ?

Julian Pavey ● 1055d

Why do the powers that be, those who could possibly ease the chaos, just stand back and watch ? Or have I missed something ?

Maggie Dodge ● 1055d

I reported the petition link in the article that didn't work and it has now been fixed. For ease, here it is: https://www.change.org/p/extend-piccadilly-line-services-to-turnham-green-station-during-district-line-disruptions

Joanna Biddolph ● 1054d

The argument that the Piccadilly line can't stop at Turnham Green for technical reasons during District Line disruption is undermined by the fact that it regularly has done in the past for scheduled engineering works.This could even be done on an ad hoc basis - pre-Covid I was on the platform when the District line was up the spout and another passenger went to staff in the ticket hall and asked them to put in a request for Piccadilly line trains to stop due to overcrowding on the platform which is what duly happened. She said she did this every time there was a significant problem.The more likely reason for TfL's refusal to introduce a Piccadilly stop over the previous four days is financial. Not staffing the station will save money, not much it is true but, when you are as strapped for cash as TfL is, every little helps.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1054d

This is correct although whether the Piccadilly line did actual stop during engineering works in the past seemed a bit haphazard. It possible has something to do with a request being made by the local authority something which Chris Calvi-Freeman always used to do when he worked at Hounslow Council.I went into the centre of London yesterday (City Mapper recommended E3 to Acton Town to avoid the traffic chaos going west) and it was quite a smooth journey. What I noticed at Acton Town was that they seemed to be turning around a lot of trains there rather than serving the western extremities of the Piccadilly line. This presumably was to keep the central section running smoothly. Doing this should have allowed a service at Turnham Green as well. The train we boarded waited a good couple of minutes at Acton Town and it was annoying to trundle through Chiswick half an hour after we set off.

Mark Evans ● 1054d

"The argument that the Piccadilly line can't stop at Turnham Green for technical reasons during District Line disruption is undermined by the fact that it regularly has done in the past for scheduled engineering works."This is too simplistic and sweeping a statement - all engineering works aren't the same.  Can you provide a link to previous engineering works when Piccadilly line trains have stopped at Turnham Green?  This strikes me as one of those statements that people quote without actually checking what happened in reality.I think you've answered your own question by referring to the closure lasting four days.  You can see what is called the 'working timetable' for the Piccadilly line at the link below and they simply aren't going to produce a new working timetable for just 4 days.https://content.tfl.gov.uk/wtt-61-piccadilly-22-may-2023.pdf

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

Simplest all round if they work out how to stop at TG on a regular basis and build it in to the timetable

Maggie Dodge ● 1054d

Michael, I can assure you that in the past the Piccadilly has stopped both on a scheduled and ad hoc basis at Turnham Green when the District line has not been operational. Most long term users of the station will be able to confirm this for you. Here is a link to one such instance I found with a quick search on Google:https://www.hammersmithtoday.co.uk/#!pages/shared:common:contube161001As for not changing the timetable for a four day closure, from what Mark says they clearly did by turning trains around at Acton Town to ensure a sufficient volume of trains in the central section of the line.What appears to have happened in recent years is that TfL has moved to a preference for replacement buses rather than stopping at Turnham Green. If they had done this during the recent disruption the replacement buses could have terminated at Turnham Green rather than disappearing down the black hole of traffic between here and Hammersmith.Unless something has changed in the configuration over the last few years, it seems more likely that this is a decision based on cost with replacement buses being relatively cheap whereas opening stations is more expensive.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1054d

It's hilarious to read the suggestion keeping a handful of stations unstaffed (they weren't, by the way, but don't let facts spoil your theory) would come in cheaper than running replacement buses for the four days.

Mike Smith ● 1054d

"Simplest all round if they work out how to stop at TG on a regular basis and build it in to the timetable".They have. New signalling for the new trains. But the Government don't want to pay. Current signalling and fleet size means it cannot happen otherwise (short of early doors and late night).

Mike Smith ● 1054d

Jeremy is correct. There was often a Piccadilly line service during engineering works, in fact I seem to recall this precise issue being raised many years ago and Chris Calvi-Freeman getting on the case and after that it seem to happen as a matter of course.

Mark Evans ● 1054d

So your example is from 2016 for a Saturday and Sunday.  Introduction of the night tube has changed timetables since then. There are different timetables for Mon-Thu, Fri, Sat and Sun.  Have you any evidence that engineering works resulted in stopping at Turnham Green on weekdays?Have you checked to see if turning around at Acton Town is part of the timetable?Running replacement buses will definitely be easier than coming up with completely different timetables for just a few days given the timetables affect everything from taking trains in and out of where they are stored to staff rosters.Isn't TG station already staffed so how can that be relevant?

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

Are you seriously telling us closed stations were kept fully staffed during the closures? Turnham Green reopened for the Piccadilly line Night Service but surely no platform staff were on duty at other times when there were no trains? Perhaps some people were working in the control room by the entrance but that isn't really the same.The facts as I see them are that TfL used to provide a Piccadilly service at Turnham Green during engineering works but no longer does so. Despite your earlier claims there is no engineering reason for this change so it seems to me that the huge additional problems being caused for passengers by no longer doing this must be down to financial reasons.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1054d

Chris Calvi Freeman hasn't been head of transport at Hounslow for, what, 10 years?  That is hardly evidence something done then can be done now, plus an assumption that all "engineering works" are the same, which they clearly aren't.

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

Platform staff? Jeez Jeremy, do you ever actually take the tube? When do you see platform staff under normal operation?

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

"platform staff".I'll bow out here. You've clearly lost touch with reality and have no idea what happens at your local Tube station, less so about the wider network.

Mike Smith ● 1054d

Apologies if I have used the wrong terminology - I mean the nice people standing by the barrier who help you out if you have a problem. At busier times there are generally two or three.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1054d

You would think TFL are running ATC for Hartsfield rather than a line from cockfosters to Heathrow. Clearly you cant just stop trains anywhere and at anytime but in this instance given where the engineering works are its pretty easy to put a TGT stop in between acton and hammersmith. You dont need to change Frequency becasue the one behind will be doing the same. Stopping,but adding say an extra min to the travel time one end to the other And you dont need to be a rocket science engineer to put that in place. Where is elon musk when you need him.

Julian Pavey ● 1054d

It may even be more than that and you are right all engineering works are not precisely the same. These most recent ones saw significant parts of west London brought to a total standstill and rendering the replacement bus service ineffective. The Manor Circus works near Richmond were also a factor. Therefore if there was ever a circumstance in which consideration should have been given to giving people in the area more public transport options this was it. Withdrawing all train provision within a 2km radius of a densely populated area of London clearly didn't work well.Changes clearly were made to the timetable as I witnessed at Acton Town so TfL did clearly have some appreciation of the challenges. Maybe silos were in effect and they were unaware of the Acton Lane closure or, as it wasn't originally planned to be a total closure but even so a holistic approach is needed to avoid a recurrence. If a stop gap Turnham Green service isn't an option that has to be accepted but you seem reluctant even to accept it happened in the past let alone that it might be possible in the future.

Mark Evans ● 1054d

Well Julian, I don't know about rocket science, but a simple bit of maths shows that if you increase the time taken to get between point A and point B, the frequency in terms of trains per hour will reduce even if the same spacing is maintained between trains.So taking a theoretical example, if it takes 10 mins to get from point A and point B and trains leave point A every 10 mins, then point B has a service of 6 trains per hour.  If you increase the time taken between point A and point B to 15 mins, then point B has a service of 5 trains per hour even maintaining 10 mins between each train departing point A.Piccadilly line trains stop at TG during in the early morning and late evening when there are fewer trains running on the line.  Introducing additional delay during the day would mean fewer trains per hour.  I think if you asked Piccadilly line passengers if they preferred fewer and more crowded trains or some people in Chiswick don't need to change at Hammersmith for the Piccadilly, the answer would be clear.

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

"Well Julian, I don't know about rocket science, but a simple bit of maths shows that if you increase the time taken to get between point A and point B, the frequency in terms of trains per hour will reduce even if the same spacing is maintained between trains."Then reduce it.

Julian Pavey ● 1054d

Reducing the gap between trains means upgrading the signalling system.Which needs both new signalling AND new trains to support the new signalling.Which is one of the benefits of the new Piccadilly line trains (along with improved acceleration and deceleration which will reduce times between stations), but they haven't been introduced yet.

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

"I think if you asked Piccadilly line passengers if they preferred fewer and more crowded trains or some people in Chiswick don't need to change at Hammersmith for the Piccadilly, the answer would be clear."Every stop a train makes has an impact on potential frequency so the question so this isn't, in isolation, a valid argument against a Piccadilly line service at Turnham Green. Also I suspect the answer you would get if you polled Piccadilly line passengers who didn't regularly use Turnham Green as a stop might be less clear cut than you think. Some would appreciate a direct link to Chiswick for occasional visits and some would find the opportunity to change to other branches of the District line for instance if they were heading to Richmond or Kew an advantage.From what I have been told by people who appear to know what they are talking about on this issue, the actual timetable has been a fiction for sometime and there is enough slack that it would be possible to introduce a Turnham Green stop without any noticeable impact on frequencies.However, what the lack of a stop does do is create the capacity to deliver an increased number of trains into the central section of the line quickly if overcrowding issues are occurring at stations such as Leicester Square and Piccadilly. According to an LUL staff member who seemed to have a detailed knowledge of the matter there is effectively always a number of trains in reserve in the western section that can be speeded up on the long section from Acton to Hammersmith if needed to fill gaps developing in the service. This facility would have become redundant if the new signalling was introduced but this seems unlikely to happen.From what others have said, during these engineering works, capacity was increased on the central section presumably due to anticipated levels of overcrowding and increase dwell times as passengers were required to change trains more often. There is an argument that stopping at Turnham Green would have helped with this issue rather than made it worse. This definitely happened regularly in the past and I very much doubt that there is a 'type' of engineering works that renders it more or less viable.

Paul Corcoran ● 1054d

Oh, I think with 200M people using the Piccadilly line each year (pre-pandemic), the numbers wanting to visit Chiswick will be a tiny proportion compared to those who would value frequent and fast service.Turnham Green is only a mid-ranking station in terms of overall passenger numbers and Gunnersbury has more at the peak.  If you look at the pattern of entries and exits at Turnham Green at weekends, the flow is away from Chiswick earlier in the day with people coming back home later.  That isn't the same compared to other stations such as Kew Gardens where there is a net flow of people visiting the area during the day.The question of all day Piccadilly line stopping at TG comes around regular as clockwork and there has been a succession of politicians foolishly claiming they will do something about it and nothing has happened because they can't overcome the reality of signalling, timetabling and rolling stock limitations.Nothing will be happening until after the introduction of the new Piccadilly line trains because in addition to the new signalling, they can accelerate and decelerate faster than the current 40 year old stock so it would be easier to address an additional stop.

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

So there you go everyone,its official. You just cant stop a train at a station. END OF

Julian Pavey ● 1054d

Oh, I'm sure it has happened in the past but it seems to have been the exception rather than the rule and has it ever happened on a weekday? The assumption that engineering works = Piccadilly trains can stop based upon zero knowledge of what the engineering works actually consist of is clearly highly dubious.You seem to be assuming that the tube works were scheduled after the Acton Lane works were known about but tube closures are usually scheduled at least 6 months in advance so it could have been the other way around (fyi there will be no service between TG and Richmond on Sunday 14 April 2024)

Michael Robinson ● 1054d

Posted by a bus driver on Fb“Having just spent a day driving rail replacement buses from Acton town to Hammersmith, how on earth do any of the local bus drivers cope with the nightmare that is Chiswick high Road? It took me over an hour to get out of Bollo Lane, onto the A406, then along the High Road to Turnham Green!! Because of the narrowing of CHR a lot of the cars now seem to use Bollo Lane. So nealry 90 minutes to do what should hve been a 30 minute journey. 2 round trips was enough for me, if I'm offered more work there I think I'll politely decline. It was too stressful.The politicians have cocked-up big time on this, no wonder London is short of bus drivers.”

Maggie Dodge ● 1054d

Bless him…..the mess in chiswick is shocking I am told they are going to start in south parade closing one lane for 5 weeks to resurface and do the pavements utterly mad. Time we organised our own protests I have never known chiswick so bad for traffic and on the whole it’s a residential area being used as a major artery crazy. TFL and councils should be utterly ashamed of themselves, no forward planning, zero understanding of the area just gridlock. One would think they would rephrase the lights on TGT about 3 cars get through each time and if the bus is stopped maybe none.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1054d

The crossover from the District to the Piccadilly was removed.That's not the problem though.  The problem is the length of the signalling blocks.Signalling systems basically work on something similar to the stopping distances that you learn when you take a driving test.The signalling blocks on the Picadilly line through Turnham Green are designed for trains doing 45mph, and are quite long as a result.  If you slow a train down to stop at Turnham Green, it might be doing 15 or 20 mph on the blocks either side of the station.  It will take too long to clear the signalling block, and leave the signal red for the train behind.  That will then have to stop for the red signal, but then that holds the signal behind that at red for longer, and so on.  You would end up with a big tailback of trains.The line is operating on the limit of the signalling capacity already.  20 odd years ago, they increased train the train frequency from 24 trains per hour to 27 trains per hour.  They ended up with tailbacks of trains like that as soon as there was a minor incident, and switched back to 24 trains per hour.

Al Webber ● 1053d

Michael, you are essentially recycling your argument that Piccadilly trains shouldn't stop at Turnham Green because only a minority of people using them want to get off at that stop. By that logic they shouldn't stop at Leicester Square either.The real reason is the one outlined before about needing capacity on hand to deliver when needed into the central section. It was explained to me in more detail but this was several years ago so I can't give the full technicalities, most of which are beyond me but it has to do with signal blocks particularly on the eastbound section of the line between Acton and Hammersmith. It is a shame that TfL doesn't but a fully explainer into the public domain on this and that would stop politicians of all stripes raising false hope of a full service.However, what these technical issues do not necessarily do is prevent an expansion of the Piccadilly line service to Turnham Green either on a regular basis i.e. by expanding the hours of operation or on a temporary basis i.e. to deal with platform overcrowding or during engineering works.A permanent increase in hours of operation is unlikely at the moment given TfL's financial position but the hugely negative impact of the recent engineering works closures has demonstrated clearly that a rethink of alternative provision is necessary.There is another District Line closure on 11 November and, according to the TfL web site there will not be a full bus replacement service.  Circle and Hammersmith & City lines are down to plus QPR have a home fixture at 3pm. It might not be quite as bad as it was last week but it will get pretty messy and providing a Piccadilly line service would deliver some mitigation. 

Paul Corcoran ● 1053d

This happened a long way back in 1990. I was working in central London and got the train from Chiswick each day. One day I got to Chiswick and there were no trains so I walked to Turnham Green  only to find out that there were long delays on the District Line due to a fault found on the trains and loads of them were out of service but after a few minutes waiting a Piccadilly Line train stopped to let passengers on and off. So if it can be done back then why cant they do it now?

Brian Green ● 1053d

There are less commuters due to hybrid working so reducing the numbers of trains and stopping at TGT wouldn’t make a whole lot of difference but would improve services on the network. TFL are stuck in the past, have zero vision and no interest in making improvements.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1053d

Paul, you may have missed it but Al Webber gives a more detailed explanation of the signal block issue you raised. This appears to be key.What happened last weekend is that trains were being fed out of the Acton Town depot to ensure that there was sufficient capacity was available on the central section. Jayne is right that there are fewer commuters than there used to be but there are still plenty of tourists and visitors to central London and there are capacity issues with some of the busier Piccadilly line stations and not stopping at TG can help with this problem.However, during these works, it seemed to me that the most serious overcrowding was occurring at Earls Court and South Kensington which had suddenly been required to handle much higher numbers of people switching between lines. Stopping the Piccadilly at Turnham Green would have mitigated this issue.It would be interesting to know from someone who has inside knowledge on this matter but it seems to me if you have a stack of trains ready to go from Acton depot you have less to worry about with regards to gaps developing in the service which would have made a TG stop perfectly feasible.

Mark Evans ● 1053d

What seems to be happening increasingly is westbound trains are being terminated earlier at Acton Town where there is the facility to turn them around.Previously one of the most important functions of the Piccadilly line was as the primary public transport option to Heathrow but now there is both the Heathrow Express and the Elizabeth line. TfL actually can increase revenue by discouraging people from using the Piccadilly line which is what they appear to be doing.Turning around trains at Acton Town both clears the way for westbound trains behind and creates more capacity on eastbound services. This might not be sufficient to deliver a 24/7 Turnham Green service but should allow for a temporary service during engineering works. All that needs to happen is that more trains than normal are turned around at Acton Town. The down side is that some people going west have to transfer to another train, the upside is you avoid the kind of chaos we saw last month.

Francis Rowe ● 1049d