Forum Topic

Green obsessed GB

At last our green obsessed government has woken up to the fact that sticking to the net zero target of 2035 is unsustainable.To quote Suella Braverman verbatim this morning "We are not going to save the planet by bankrupting Britain".This afternoon the PM will allow the sale of gas boilers, petrol and diesel cars, much to the relief of consumers and oil rig workers alike. The net zero target will be pushed back to the year 2050.I have no doubt that this prime ministerial volte face on energy output has another, secondary reason behind it: it should persuade many more electors to help keep the Conservatives in power.

Denis I. Fox ● 1094d41 Comments

I read somewhere that even if the UK were to sink into the ocean tomorrow it would have very little effect on the state of the planet. I believe the UK is responsible for 1% or maybe 2% of global pollution. It's China, India and Russia that need to be cleaning their act's up not the UK.

Chris Blackwell ● 1094d

I think it's more about filling his family's coffers with our tax payers cash before they all foxtrot Oscar to the USA!Wonder why the Tories actively worked against green energy, oil and fossil industry receiving huge subsidies?

Basil Finnis ● 1094d

Again I find myself agreeing with Chris, that’s not to say we should be doing our bit but as I stated before this is a global issue so whatever we do if the likes of Russia, India, China, USA don’t do theirs it will negate anything Europe does. The planet will rejoice when we are wiped out and will recover quickly. Until we learn to stop fighting and all being globally pull in the same direction the planet will continue to suffer.  The likes of Russia, China, India and USA are not committed to net zero, it’s all talk.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1094d

Sunak thinks he has drawn a clever line between the Conservative and Labour. Actually he has drawn a line between the the barking far right of the Tory Party + the minority of foolish voters who align with their culture war (+all the Russian bots amplifying them on social media) and everybody else in the country.It is a massive gamble that probably gifts Labour even more of a landslide victory at the next election.The aspect that shows how deep into the barrel they are prepared to scrape is the instruction to ministers to find ways of discouraging car pooling. Foolish banality from a brainstorming session in No. 10 or Tufton Street. I'm surprised they haven't added promotion of plastic straws to the policy long list.

Paul Campbell ● 1094d

I don’t think it will make much difference some green leaning may change their vote but so will the red wall. Will 5 years make much difference to the planet probably not but it will make a massive difference to millions of families who can’t afford to change their car on a regular basis and can’t afford EV at todays prices. Forgot all the other issues with EV’s.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1094d

That's only one of the measures. The message is clear to the vast majority of voters. They cannot trust Rishi Sunak and the Libertarian far right of the Conservative Party with the environment and the future of their children and grandchildren. These voters are already fed up with the Conservatives and Rishi is pushing them and more off the cliff.You're right he has gambled winning more votes than he will lose by asking people to trade having a different car in seven years, keeping their crappy inefficient gas boilers firing on foreign gas to heat their leaky old homes against the future of Britain and its role as a leader in the global transition to a new economy.But there is little point trying to explain this to somebody who has satisfied themselves that there is no point in doing anything because humanity is doomed.

Paul Campbell ● 1094d

Paul I think you underestimate the millions in our country that will find going green out of their financial reach. By aligning with France, Germany, Spain etc hopefully going green will become more affordable. Tech plays a massive role and in a decades time there will be a massive improvement on all things green at least in Europe. Can’t vouch for Russia, China, India, US. Why make brits suffer when there is zero need to do so?????

Jayne Thorburn ● 1094d

"Why make Brits suffer".So-called business people are so myopic. Why do you think businesses are rushing to issue statements against Rishi's policy changes? Because it is bad for businesses, bad for the economy and bad for Britain to give up on leading on decarbonisation of the global economy. We will be done to instead of doing. Giving up on countless opportunities to create jobs, technical know-how and exports. to countries that also have no choice but to decarbonise their economies.  Your defence of these idiots just reinforces why they need to go and an election cannot come soon enough. Britain cannot resist the transition. But it could have led it.

Paul Campbell ● 1094d

Oh and there is nothing as despicable and patronising as a Conservative who thinks that people with lower incomes don't care about the environment. The job of government is to aid the transition. This version of the Conservatives wants to increase the burden of dependency on increasingly expensive fossil fuels on the population. I think poor people have been fooled enough by the Rees-Moggs and Thorburns of the world.

Paul Campbell ● 1094d

Had Chiswick W4 existed back then, I’m sure that a distant relative of Denis I. Fox would’ve ranted against the government forcing us to ditch wood for coal, or to ditch coal for gas.To paraphrase Henry Ford, “if I asked people what they wanted, they’d have said ‘faster horses’”.Pushing for renewables and electrification creates new jobs, frees us from fossil fuels, dependency on very bad countries, gives us an economic edge in know-how which can be exported and improves the planet. Unless you’re a luddite.

Francis Sheehan ● 1094d

Michael Good ● 1093d

Don't forget we're the 5th biggest total emitter of greenhouse gasses. All that CO2 from our Industrial Revolution onwards is still up there heating up the planet nicely. So we've not done our share yet of mitigation. 

John Hall ● 1093d

What we have done has been done under favourable political conditions with cross-party consensus on the categorical imperative of tackling climate change. A consensus that was the envy of countries like Australia with deeper vested interests in heavy polluting industries.Sunak has shattered that consensus at exactly the wrong time with the US Inflation Reduction Act and the EU's Green Deal Industrial Plan creating favourable conditions to attract capital, investment, talent.  It's rank crass stupidity borne out of desperation and over-excitement at Uxbridge.

Paul Campbell ● 1093d

Paul you are funny, I wasn’t making any political points merely pointing out that it makes sense to align ourselves with other countries it means car manufacturers will NOT get the premium prices which is good for consumer. 5 years will make no difference to investment and tech advances will make improvements to systems. We are way ahead of others on decarbonisation, covid was an event which has delayed things so sensible to adjust our timelines which will have no impact on net zero target. Clearly I am not emotional about the subject just pragmatic and following the facts. The facts speak for themselves and any government making unnecessary demands on people is clearly wrong.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1093d

The familiar discourse of delay and denialism with the false rhetoric that that actions on climate and better living standards are diametrically opposed when the opposite is true. All of your points are political. You can tell because you just copy what Braverman and Badencoh say to run a scrambled defence for their embattled leader.  I don't really understand how somebody can be so lacking in critical thinking skills to parrot those charlatans unless they do so deliberately and in bad faith.

Paul Campbell ● 1093d

Meanwhile in more good news Tower Hamlets ............

Mark Talbot ● 1093d

Do you spend a lot of time driving through Bethnal Green or are you thinking you could move there to be part of the Aspire revolution and escape Labour's dismantling of car supremacy? I'd have expected you to be more of a Kensington and Chelsea man.

Paul Campbell ● 1093d

It's a valid point that, for people to accept 'green' technological change, it really needs to be cheaper than the polluting alternative.  Solar, wind and nuclear are all substantially cheaper ways of generating electricity, but at the moment this isn't passed onto the consumer because of the arcane 'market' which I gather sets a price based on the cost of gas.  Until this changes and electricity costs come down dramatically, you can't expect people to replace their gas boilers for something that costs five times as much.And ideally, we should be able to look forward to 'green' technologies employing more people, but the conversion of Port Talbot steel works from coal to electricity, with the loss of thousands of jobs, doesn't seem to be a good start.

Peter Evans ● 1093d

Well yes of course a sensible government with a coherent environmental plan and real commitment would ensure consumers realise the cost advantages of the contribution of growing cheaper renewables to the energy mix AND would, like the US and EU, have a strategy for capturing investment in decarbonising the economy instead of being leveraged by foreign companies to make ad hoc last-minute $500m investments from the Treasury to maintain a UK steel industry. These are not reasons to give up. They are examples of how inept the government is.

Paul Campbell ● 1093d

I have been in Tower Hamlets twice recently. Once by train the other by car (5.30am Sunday call time)Vibrant, a little scary, full of life, choked with traffic and a very clear contrast to wealthy Chiswick.

Adrian Irving ● 1093d

Yes thank you I do, but looks like a bit less time soon. What will be will be.

Mark Talbot ● 1093d

A very reasoned justification has been published by the Mayor of Tower Hamlets including details of the retention of a number of bus gates and protected walking routes.https://twitter.com/LutfurRahmanTH/status/1704567519325962480?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

N V Brooks ● 1093d

Indeed but far too reasoned and common sense for some I expect.

Mark Talbot ● 1093d

Glad you like it. Now you just need to form a party that consists exclusively of middle-aged Bangladeshi male taxi drivers, defeat Labour and replicate the Aspire dream for Chiswick. Good luck!

Paul Campbell ● 1093d

Why bring race into this? Unreal.

Mark Talbot ● 1092d

Well it's pretty noteworthy that a Council in London consists entirely of middle-aged Bangladeshi men isn't it? I'm not aware of any other Councils in London that are so homogenous and lacking in diversity. Are you? Or maybe you just weren't aware in your eagerness to celebrate being able to drive through residential streets in Bethnal Green.

Paul Campbell ● 1092d

Yes I was. Keep digging.

Mark Talbot ● 1092d

Do you only like a lack of diversity when it results in pro-car policies or are you less discerning than that?

Paul Campbell ● 1092d

Democracy. Why bring race into it? Unreal.

Mark Talbot ● 1092d

I can feel your awkward squirming against all your instincts to support the absurd TH situation because one of its bizarre outcomes fits your prejudices and spotlights how regressive they are.

Paul Campbell ● 1092d

How many members of Hounslow Council are also members of Hounslow Cycling/LCC . You can be a lover of cycling for the sport without being green .

Maggie Dodge ● 1092d

Campbell’s alcohol consumption this evening had got the better of him it seems.

Simon Hayes ● 1092d

I can feel your awkward squirming having brought race into this thread. Unreal. And on a forum you can’t delete unlike X.

Mark Talbot ● 1091d

Back to Sunak's decisions.The U turn on green/net zero policies is mostly a bad idea.  The reality is that before 2030 EVs will be cheaper than equivalent ICE vehicles - the prices are already falling.As for phasing out gas boilers, this has been badly mishandled for the last decade.  It goes back to Cameron deleting the building regulations that required all new homes to be Code 6 (net zero) by 2016.  We should have had far more heat pumps installed and far more insulation in homes installed instead we got govt. funded schemes (for both heat pumps and insulation) for some people (mostly tenants in the private rented sector on benefits) which, as always happens, got ripped off by the construction industry cowboys.

Justin Stephenson ● 1090d

In that case why are you concerned about the change to 2035 bringing the UK in line with the EU? Do you not think a carrot is better than a stick?As for heat pumps I spent ages researching their effectiveness when refurbishing our house last year and installing UFH throughout the ground floor. The reality was absolutely no company was prepared to warrantee that their system would heat a circa 1910 built house even just at the ground floor with UFH throughout yet alone converting a radiator system. As you say the industry is akin to the wild west with false promise after false promise made but the moment you say ok then lets go for it and if it doesn't get up to temperature in depths of the winter they run a mile.

Mark Talbot ● 1089d

Mark: talk to Heat Geeks.  Pretty sure that most houses built in 1910-1930 should be able to be heated entirely satisfactorily via a heat pump (assuming some insulation) but as with UFH you probably need to run it longer at lower temperatures to get the room temperature up.As for EVs and cut off date for selling new ICE vehicles - I personally would have kept the 2030 date if only because I am pretty sure the date will be irrelevant, by 2030 the advantages of EVs in terms of initial cost, running costs and availability will mean new ICE vehicle sales will be close to zero by 2030 in any case.

Justin Stephenson ● 1089d

Even with limited knowledge it was obvious heat pumps are still not an option for the majority of houses. Certainly not at the prices originally quoted

Maggie Dodge ● 1089d

Justin: I had various various companies do their calculations with UFH across the ground floor claiming they could get it to 21 degrees and when I challenged them to guarantee that with a change to gas boiler or refund of the system wouldn’t do as they claimed none would. A little known issue with these systems is also HW supply both in terms of temperature and pressure & flow rate so when you get a so called engineer not understanding the difference between water pressure and flow rate personally I run a mile all the way back to a trusty Worcester Bosch gas boiler. I was so prepared to make the switch last year as it would have been easy to do at that stage but not one heat pump company could convince me I wouldn’t regret it come the winter.If your so sure the date will be irrelevant then there’s nothing to be concerned about surely, the market will make its own mind up?

Mark Talbot ● 1089d

In the coastal village I grew up in there is no gas but plenty of cold, wet and windy weather not just in winter!I know of 3 families in that village who had heat pumps installed - a probably early 1960s bungalow, an early 1950s terraced house and I would guess a 1920s terraced house.  I think they all got govt. grants and all 3 love it.  Keeps the home nice and cozy and running costs are less than half of the old heating.  I do agree with the pricing but once you factor in the lower running and maintenance costs the heat pump will end up being a cheaper option over the medium term.Longer term we absolutely have to require that all new builds include heat pumps, solar panels and a battery.

Justin Stephenson ● 1087d

https://www.huckmag.com/article/rishi-sunaks-climate-speech-debunked

Philippa Bond ● 1086d

The PM got wiff of America's greatest president being re-elected Trump 2024

Carl Johns ● 1083d