Forum Topic

Streetfood Market has reapplied - representations due by 2nd July

Back in February/March there was an application for a over 60 stall Streetfood market which was turned down.  The application has reappeared with little fanfare and seems to have been overlooked by most. https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20071/licensing/1503/pending_street_trading_applicationsThe application seems to have changed little and the main objections previously were:- the competition provided to local restaurants for whom Sunday is one of their most important business days - they pay rates and employ people.  The market licence holder only has to pay £34 per Sunday to hold the market and rent out pitches- concerns about litter in surrounding streets and the Common - litter is already bad and there is no extra provision for litter clearance being proposed.  There is a difference between litter generated by hot streetfood - eaten on the stop and selling flowers, vintage clothing and wrapped cheese. - Chiswick has plentiful food outlets - is providing cheap competition going to help or hinder the provision of good sustainable food standards in Chiswick? How will it impact the local restaurants? Representations for or against should be sent to licensing@hounslow.gov.uk by 2nd July. Representations need to include their names and addresses. https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20071/licensing/1216/street_trading/4

Susan Engel ● 1184d96 Comments

Interesting.  Much though I like street food markets I’m a NIMBY about this one.  I think local restaurants are under enormous pressure at the moment and they need all the trade they can get in order to just survive.  A street food market on CHR could be the straw that breaks a few more backs.  I’m an Acton resident so don’t qualify to comment on the application link I guess, but this is my view anyway.

Alastair Banton ● 1184d

you can definitely respond. You don’t have to be a Hounslow resident. For example non resident would be stallholders can make representations in support.There is nothing in the guidance to say you can’t,  perhaps if you were living in Turkey that might make your view less significant.  But Acton is fine!

Susan Engel ● 1184d

Street food market, great but not here. I'm also in the mind that it could be bad for some that are struggling and pay more than a daily rate for a pitch.. Thanks but NO thanks Try the B&Q car park as a last-ditch attempt

Julian Pavey ● 1184d

Oh right, thanks Susan.  I’ll go ahead and comment.

Alastair Banton ● 1184d

Done!

Alastair Banton ● 1183d

Hammersmith have street food market on the piazza  by the Lyric.I passed through a couple of days ago when it was in full swing.Air full of fugg, cooking smells and crowded with eating and queuing people.I am glad I don't live nearby.

Adrian Irving ● 1183d

We need to support Chiswicks bricks and mortar restaurants, cafes and eateries, especially the independents who pay high rents and business rates.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1183d

I am also all for local businesses, thinking it through it may bring people to the area on one day who decide to come back to enjoy the local bars and restaurants so it actually might be good for bricks & mortar trade. Just a different way of thinking about it……

Jayne Thorburn ● 1183d

I am utterly shocked - I agree with Jayne.Weren't we all taught this in GCSE Human Geography? Build clusters of related offerings and you create a destination that attracts the audience who want that thing so you grow the pie and everybody gets a share of something bigger. This is simple economics and it always surprises me when local Conservative Councillors and voters apply socialist protectionist ideology instead. Cognitive dissonance. Let's just say it's pretty obvious that the Flower Market hasn't harmed the local sellers of flowers and plants ....

Paul Campbell ● 1183d

So after the Flower Market started up we saw Little Dobbies come to Chiswick and then Urban Tropicana on TGT. What were they thinking?Oddly, one of the local cafes submitted an objection to the previous application claiming their covers were down on market days. But they’d simply miscalculated and covers were lowest on non-market Sundays. In fact their Sunday covers followed the footfall on the High Road from the TfL cameras. I wonder if they will put in the same objection again or check their maths.

Tom Pike ● 1183d

Err - short memories.  The well known florist on the High Road just up from the market closed down.

Claire Moran ● 1183d

It moved didn't it?

Andrew Jones ● 1183d

Yes, Pot Pourri moved to Kew. The owner themselves said Brexit had hurt their business and Kew offered a cheaper rent. Footfall is up 36% on market Sundays, which must be positive overall for retail in Chiswick.

Tom Pike ● 1183d

Ardent Brexiteers blaming markets that attract thousands of people to Chiswick for independent businesses struggling! No shame.

Paul Campbell ● 1183d

I like Markets, it's strange how Brexit has no effect on Markets though 😏

Janice Evans ● 1183d

It did on the Single Market. Lol

Stewart Jones ● 1183d

Don’t forget that anybody can write in support of the application too. I know people only tend to write in to complain but people who enjoy the markets and would welcome the variety and diversity that this one would bring to Chiswick should write in support so that the licensing panel is aware.

Paul Campbell ● 1183d

Perhaps Paul you should chat to some of the business owners in the area before getting behind this proposal. I only know the opinions of a small proportion but those are adamant that a food market would have a very negative impact on their takings. Weekends are when they generally are able to trade profitably an so a dip in trade on just one Sunday can make a big difference to the bottom line in these really difficult times.With all due respect to your Human Geography GCSE, most of us are going to assume that people who work in the hospitality industry, have managed to thrive in an incredibly challenging environment and whose livelihood depends on knowing their business, will have a better grasp of how the food market would affect trade than you.I fully accept that increased footfall from the other markets could potentially boost trades and many restaurant and cafe owners don't dispute that. However, even you must recognise that it is very silly to suggest that people coming to a food market are then going to spend money at local cafes and restaurants.

Francis Rowe ● 1182d

I’ve discovered in the last five years that many of our local traders needsaving from themselves. Like the ones who didn’t support the markets going down Devonshire Road and then begged for them to be put back there when they stopped. Duh! When you make a place a destination people come back. At other times! And they linger on the day moving between market and permanent businesses. Naturally some will use cafes and hopefully many will go to the boutiques and other non-hospitality businesses too. I wholeheartedly support another day of thousands of diverse people being attracted to Chiswick to discover its charms and its local independent businesses and I am enthusiastically encouraging everybody I know who feels the same to write in and say so too.

Paul Campbell ● 1182d

Janice maybe you have missed the many reports that Brexit has impacted UK inflation and interest rates up to two percent consequently hitting hard people's spending power.Strangely this could be good of less expensive food outlets people choosing to buy cheaper street food than pricer sit in dinners.

Adrian Irving ● 1182d

“I fully accept that increased footfall from the other markets could potentially boost trades and many restaurant and cafe owners don't dispute that.”Francis, the numbers I’ve seen from a couple of businesses are quite clear: the market boosts turnover and covers significantly. What is odd is that one of those businesses believed the opposite, but had miscalculated, overlooking that there were five weeks in some months. So while some businesses might mistakenly see a threat from the current markets, if their views prevailed it would undoubtedly be to the detriment of the High Road as a whole, another case of the tragedy of the commons.

Tom Pike ● 1182d

"the market boosts turnover and covers significantly" They are a big boost to the local economy. Im not sure about a Street food market over a food or farmers market if you get my drift. But having a think over it i think it should be given a short license and then see what comes from it.

Julian Pavey ● 1182d

Tom, this literally is not rocket science and you might have to accept that people, who lack your formidable intellect, have a better grasp of what is going on because their livelihood depends on it. A bit of fuzziness on the exactitude of their statistical analysis doesn't rule out the validity of a trader's overall view.As I say, I have only spoken to a small number of restaurant cafe owners who I happen to know or have started chatting to after a meal or a coffee. The consensus is that trade is up on the flower market day but less so on other Sundays. The belief appears to be that some trade is lost due to the lack of parking but this is mitigated by the extra parking available on Sundays. Cafes seem to be less dependent on customers who drive and seem to be getting bigger increase in sales on market days.I'm a bit sceptical about the more ambitious claims for footfall because I think a large amount of people wandering through the markets are those that were coming to the high road anyway and have cross over out of interest. This doesn't really matter to businesses on the southside who will benefit either way and have really seen footfall decline due to the Cycleway which has tended to make people remain on the northside.The notion that hospitality businesses need to accept the damage a street food market would do to their business is a dangerous one in my view. The High Road seems to become increasingly dominated by chains who get a significant amount of turnover from internet enabled delivery services and businesses like Chipotle and Five Guys have further contributed to the hollowing out of the southside. Ngon was an excellent little business with a loyal following and it couldn't hack it. The independents have now been largely ghettoised into Devonshire Road and that does appear to be doing relatively well but the impression I get is that this is a very fragile recovery and badly judged policies could end it.

Francis Rowe ● 1182d

Not sure about cheese market but the whole area is packed and you cant move on antiques market sunday and every eatery is packed out.

Julian Pavey ● 1182d

“This doesn't really matter to businesses on the southside who will benefit either way and have really seen footfall decline due to the Cycleway which has tended to make people remain on the northside.“Of all the silly claims made about the cycle lane this is my favourite. Not just because it is patently untrue and easily proven so with just a casual few minutes observation of the crossings on the High Road but more importantly because it ignores all the people living south of the cycle lane who, according to the same argument, must surely be trapped on that side and forced to frequent the businesses there! Only the most solipsistic of minds could imagine something this ludicrous. The fact that you have to cite Ngon as proof of your absurd theory is equally delicious. It moved to bigger and better premises because it was successful. I almost pity the anti-safer streets campaigners who have to lie because the arguments they have been repeating for years now have proven to be entirely wrong in reality. I suspect the restaurant owners you are chatting to are humouring you. How else should they respond to your bizarre worldview?

Paul Campbell ● 1182d

"A bit of fuzziness on the exactitude of their statistical analysis doesn't rule out the validity of a trader's overall view."Francis, in this case their view, that covers were down on market days, was demonstrably invalid - there's no fuzziness there! "businesses on the southside ... have really seen footfall decline due to the Cycleway"In your case, you obviously feel untrammelled by any data when you make a completely unevidenced assertion which is in fact quite wrong. We have footfall data from counts made before C9 and then continuous monitoring of the southside from the TfL cameras after. Footfall has increased.It is notable that the largest increase in cycling numbers with C9 is during the day - it has doubled then. In contrast car counts are down 40%. What the evidence actually shows is that footfall on the High Road has increased as traffic along it has fallen.

Tom Pike ● 1182d

Indeed, Francis is reliably wrong on these matters.

Tom Pike ● 1182d

Adrian, they are very different, people who want to dine at a restaurant or visit a cafe will still do that.

Janice Evans ● 1182d

It seems strange that a spin off, of an American company located in the UK, set up a street food market in Chiswick High Road some years ago. It didn't take long before it failed, Reasons unknown.Then they tried a second time, and when failing again, allegedly there seemed to be a few underhanded tactics to pull in customers from other areas to visit the Market.OK the market wasn't on the scale of the proposed market in 2023 but unless the residents of around Chiswick high Road have changed enormously, their wasn't to much enthusiasm for a food market in Chiswick High Road at that time.

Bernard Allen ● 1182d

Bernard, I didn't know that previous market had failed or why - would be interested to know more. Any information out there?  But it does stand to reason when there are some wonderful restaurants around, why one would want to hang around eating fast food instead. Hot food can smell, there is nowhere to sit, and the litter management provision in the application is lamentably poor. The other markets did not attract as much opposition because they present little direct competition to shops- this is rather different. Like Tom Pike and most posters on this thread, I don't run a local restaurant, but I tend to have more respect those who do and what they are saying, how it affects their takings and margins, ability to employ people, the high rates they have to pay and their struggle to keep afloat in challenging times and the prospect of a fall in trade on the most important revenue earning day of the week

Susan Engel ● 1181d

Tom, of course car counts are down because of the gating effecting of two bus gates, closure of Fishers Lane, changes to light phasing and numerous choke points that mean most motorists avoid the area and mapping apps do the same.More generally on this thread, rather than people who have never run a food business, whether they are cyclists or not, aruge the toss, I do feel strongly that local businesses should have a key input. They pay high rates and rents and often many are not that busy. It would seem good to attract visitors, but we already have several great events that do this. Of course, people are entirely entitled to comment whether in support or not. Lets avoid another tiresome angry debate that always bizarrely seems to divide along the same lines.

Bill George ● 1181d

"Do people really want a "fast" sorry - ''street" food market?"Yes. Lots of people do. And they have been contacting me to tell me they support it. The supporters include local business owners.

Paul Campbell ● 1181d

"bizarrely seems to divide along the same lines."Nothing remotely bizarre about it. Quite the contrary. I can easily predict exactly what our most persistent anti-safer streets campaigners will think about most unrelated topics.

Paul Campbell ● 1181d

Equally Paul that applies to you, as someone who seems to have very strong opinions about a whole range of topics, and seem to like to dismiss the view of local business, largely it seems because some didnt like CS9. A local business forum with community input would be good, I remember LBH once hired someone to do just that who disappeared without trace.

Bill George ● 1181d

I thought local business were consulted before allowing th Markets to trade.

Janice Evans ● 1181d

No it's got nothing to do with C9. Except that anybody still banging on against C9 is highly likely a deeply committed reactionary conservative or somebody harbouring deep-seated grievances who will oppose any and every change, especially if proposed or supported by a Labour Council. Including markets, tree planting, no mow May, hire bikes, proposals to have a BID etc. They out themselves on every issue.

Paul Campbell ● 1181d

Susan, a lot of businesses started out working on stalls in street markets,many of the stall holders will be set up in other areas but it isalso a good opportunity for anyone wanting to start up a business.  I'm notsaying it's wrong to oppose it because that usually sorts out any issues before it goes ahead.

Janice Evans ● 1181d

I wish them well and hope the license is granted

Jayne Thorburn ● 1181d

Where's your evidence ?Lots of people contacting you, really Mr Campbell are you resorting to anecdotal evidence something you've previously poo-pooed in the past !We do not need yet more food retailers who will visit once a month for a meagre cost of £34.00 and make a tidy profit at the expense of our 'brick and mortar' eateries who pay massive Rents and Business Rates. SUPPORT OUR EXISTING RESTAURANTS - write and object to this particular market, or do you want lots of empty premises similar to when we had the Covid crisis. The UK economy is far from strong with the freehold housing market teetering on the edge of an abyss, we need to support our diverse range of our existing eateries not encourage more

Loraine Pemberton ● 1180d

Loraine writes “ SUPPORT OUR EXISTING RESTAURANTS”Interesting that you should be asking people to support multinational corporations rather than independent small businesses.If you want to support Chipotle Mexican Grill Inc, you can buy shares in them (NYSE: CMG)Five Guys revenue is over $1Billion a year.Nando’s is owned by a S African billionaire.Somehow I think if people give them a miss and go to a stall at the street food market instead, these companies will survive.

Michael Robinson ● 1180d

It's hardly a far-fetched idea that lots of people would like to see some variety and innovation come to the Chiswick food scene. It's not exactly exciting.

Paul Campbell ● 1180d

Will it be successful?I'm not sure. Most street food operations are an adjunct to events, markets or other attractions which this one won't have unlike Camden or the South Bank or our own Bedford Park Festival.What special attractions has CHR got? I notice one of two street food sellers have appeared alongside the flower and antique markets and I can see how that pays off but 64 of them as a stand alone attraction seems a risky venture to me.Anyway what do I know. 

Adrian Irving ● 1180d

So Hounslow Council wants to discourage commuters who may contribute to the local area, but wants to encourage a large fleet of what will be predominantly small diesel vans to drive to the area who will not be contributing to the local economy. I am sure I read the market will be paying less than £50 to the council for use of the car park, that probably explains why the council do not send anyone to clear up the mess after the current markets. Unlike the local shops the market isn’t going to offer any employment to anyone locally, as a few have mentioned it may cause local job losses. The food waste created by the market is going to be horrendous, commercial catering always creates more waste than domestic catering, partly caused by not wanting to run out. If you are cooking a roast dinner for six people, you may add one potato just in case you need it. If you are cooking for six hundred people that is a hundred extra potatoes. What if it rains and the numbers are lower than they expected, unlike a shop they are unlikely to be able to sell the food again. They maybe able to salvage some for use elsewhere, but they are unlikely to donate the left overs because of the fear of litigation, so most of the prepped food will end up in the bin. Then there is also the refrigeration and cooking of the food. Given the time and space limitations of a stall it is unlikely to be freshly cooked food more likely ¾ precooked and then reheated. (The way Gordon Ramsey complained about, then used in his own restaurants because that is the only financially viable way to do it.) If the food is cooked or just reheated it is likely to be done with gas, a fossil fuel we are supposed to be trying to use less of. To allow the market would send a very mixed message about the councils stated environmental aims. Discourage car use to the area, so they can promote vans traveling to the area. Create less waste, while allowing an event that will add to the food waste. Reduce the amount of fossil fuels we use, then allowing an event that will use refrigeration and burn fossil fuel on the High road.

Colin Potter ● 1178d

The market is on a Sunday when there's not many commuters.

Ed Saper ● 1178d

The statement that "hot food can smell" bemuses me.  Smell is one of the most inviting things about food - especially when it is cooking.  You can gravitate towards it. It would be very disappointing if was as smell-free as so much of the food in a shop.

Philippa Bond ● 1178d

Not many "commuters" but Chiswick is choked up with traffic on a Sunday.  Gone are the days when Sunday was quiet day - people go places on Sundays: there is shopping, visiting attractions, parks, visiting family and friends, sports activities. This idea that Chiswick High Road is dead - so it needs revitalising is way off the mark.  Colin Potter - you make some very good points.

Susan Engel ● 1177d

I would  like to mention there are already a number of fruit & veg stalls on the high road, there is also a relatively new falafel stall near the Catholic Church, I’m unaware of any impact or complaining from the either the large supermarkets nor the two fruit and veg shops on TG.  Fast food in my mind means food with a huge list of ingredients most of which I’d prefer not to eat and mostly can’t even pronounce.  I hardly think small independent stalls selling freshly cooked food is fast food – rather more gourmet food.Surely the way forward to stop all this arguing & wild speculation would be to allow the market a trial period - as one poster has already suggested.

Liz de Keyser ● 1177d

Liz, your solution sounds rather like the old medieval way determining whether or not a woman was a Witch. Placed on a ducking stool she was lowered into a pond if she drowned she was innocent but if she survived she was usually burnt at the stake. Sorry to say I live approximately  200 yards from the pop up middle eastern vendor you mention and the food odours are not pleasant, therefor a market of 60+ vendors would be horrid. Yes I do support our existing eateries, why should it be an uneven playing field if these vendors were paying a similar rent to our bricks and mortar eateries, then I'd not have any problem.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1177d

LorraineAgree 100% with your comments, and most especially your last sentence

Mitra Alam ● 1176d

LP : What I was trying to say, we should be willing to try new things and see if we like it or not.  The existing stalls along the High Road also don’t pay the same rent as the shops.  Therefore, that's why I’m suggesting to give the proposed market a trial period.  It is not a daily market but once a month for 5 hrs.

Liz de Keyser ● 1176d

Tom, just to clarify footfall on the southside has always been lower and this is reflected in rents. All the main supermarkets are on the northside and so this is where people will head to and spend most of their time.C9 has reinforced this difference. You are falling into the trap of relying on one piece of data to reach an unsound conclusion. It may will be the case that there has been no serious collision reported yet involving a pedestrian and a cyclist. Even if you don't believe that there will have been a number of less serious but not trivial collisions since the cycleway has been introduced, one thing that is undeniable is that it is a lot more stressful to cross Chiswick High Road and fewer people will be inclined to do so. As an abled bodied former member of the Tufty Club who is more often than not sober still find getting across much more challenging than I used to. I've witnessed dozens of close shaves and myself have been narrowly missed while on a zebra crossing by someone on a large machine which was quite legitimately able to use the cycleway but would have seriously injured me if it had made contact.At the same time the Cycleway has made it much more difficult to access the car park at Old Market Place. Rather than a very obvious entrance at the centre there is only a much more obscure access point which generally only people with local knowledge will be aware of.You combine these factors and therefore the southside, which already had a significant disadvantage has been further hampered. Talk to businesses based in the area about what is happening. Covid and economic difficulties can make it difficult to see the underlying trend clearly but it is very evident.Businesses like Ngon and Pot Pourri didn't move because of a single factor but due to the overarching reason that the location was becoming less attractive. The remaining businesses are finding it really tough and the only ones that are thriving are delivery enabled ones which have more moped riders than customers eating in. Another huge setback for the area is the design of the old people's home which has passed on the opportunity to reintroduce retail on the ground floor level.As for the existing markets impact on this trend, it has to be said that it has been broadly good. Whether the people attending these markets are from outside the area or local people who for once are crossing the road doesn't really matter, for three days a month the southside is busy.Some businesses, generally in hospitality, will benefit from this but others believe that the extra footfall does not compensate them for the loss of business from customers who would have used the car park. Overall the impact is positive but that doesn't mean there aren't winners and losers.As for the Street Food market, the balance is quite different because the hospitality businesses won't benefit (based on what they are telling me). As far as I can see only Borough Kitchen has come out in support of the idea.Something needs to be done to revitalise the southside of the High Road and markets can play a part in that but on their own they are insufficient. One change that might work is making the section of the Cycleway between TGT and Dukes Avenue a shared space with pedestrian priority reducing stress levels for people crossing the road and discouraging high speed travel through the area.

Francis Rowe ● 1173d

"One change that might work is making the section of the Cycleway between TGT and Dukes Avenue a shared space with pedestrian priority reducing stress levels for people crossing the road and discouraging high speed travel through the area."Why stop at doing this for the cycle lane? Why not the whole carriageway? That would address the actual danger to pedestrians rather than the concocted fantasy one.

Paul Campbell ● 1173d

"Tom, just to clarify footfall on the southside has always been lower and this is reflected in rents. All the main supermarkets are on the northside and so this is where people will head to and spend most of their time. C9 has reinforced this difference. You are falling into the trap of relying on one piece of data to reach an unsound conclusion."You mean the data that shows that footfall has increased since C9 opened? I think rather you've already fallen into your own Heffalump trap of dismissing any information that contradicts your prejudices!"The remaining businesses are finding it really tough and the only ones that are thriving are delivery enabled ones which have more moped riders than customers eating in."It's rather odd that the number of unoccupied premises has dropped since C9 opened, and the newcomers are not just restaurants, either. It might be nothing to do with C9, of course, but you are very ready to blame it without offering any concrete evidence. Maybe you could clarify the "very evident" signs that you think others are overlooking?

Tom Pike ● 1173d

Hi Tom, out of interest what data is this for footfall and can you share it. What specific period does it relate to and do we have full comparable pre-COVID data. Always helpful to see if its available. Regarding lettings, do you know what the rents are for new tenants and how they compare? Always good to get causality clear in these things. As you note it CS9 may not be a factor, but it would be interesting to hear from local business otherwise are all just guessing, but suspect some may not want to to comment

Bill George ● 1173d

The original footfall data was published by TfL in the response to the first C9 consultation in 2019.  We’ve subsequently had pedestrian counts released by TfL that cover much of 2021 and 2022.There have been, maybe surprisingly to some, no huge changes in average footfall. It fell back by 9% between 2019 and 2021, but then increased by 12% in 2022, so was slightly up on preCOVID levels. That’s for the average peak hour of footfall to directly compare with the original data. There’s not been much change in the Tuesday and Saturday counts between 2019 and 2022 (less than 5% difference), though Sunday is up by more than 20%. Sunday footfall is also noticeably up on market days and is catching up on Saturday which still has the peak footfall. It would therefore appear that footfall has bounced back to preCOVID levels with an extra boost from the markets. I’ve no data on the actual rents, but Jeremy Day, who runs commercial lettings for Whitman’s and therefore should have an informed opinion, commented earlier this year: “there is strong demand for any shop available to let, and there are a wide-range of interesting occupiers who are seeking to open in Chiswick.”

Tom Pike ● 1173d

THanks Tom, so the fact that we are slightly up on pre COVID may well be explained by increased WFH. Seems that the Sunday markets do drive footfall, which one would expect given the good attendance. So overall very hard to see any particular impact from CS9 one way or another. I note the comment on demand for shops to let but price likely to be key, everything I read on commercial retail suggests rents are down a fair bit.

Bill George ● 1172d

Ultimately making a road more difficult to cross will mean fewer people will cross it. Shoppers tend to gravitate to the north side of the road because that is where the main supermarkets are and these days very few of us can afford to shop at Planet Organic.The people doing business there (based on a number of conversations held over the last year) do not believe that there has been a compensating rise in customers arriving via the cycleway. Even on the most optimistic estimates of the increase in cyclists, once you have allowed for modal shift (i.e. people who would have come to the High Road anyway but have walked or driven) there isn't likely to have been a bike powered shopping boom.The markets have been a positive for many businesses and have boosted footfall on the south side. How much of that is new people coming to the area and how much is people who were there anyway crossing the road is hard to tell but there is no doubt that trade is up for some (if not the majority) of businesses on market days. However, some are reporting trade being down as many of their customers came by car. This appears to be particularly pronounced for hardware businesses.I don't want to overstate the role of C9 in the decline of the southside of the road. It already had inherent disadvantages such as no supermarkets, a north facing aspect which meant it is always in shade and narrow footways. However, the deterioration of the area does seem to be accelerating. It is a disaster that the new old people's home does not have retail at the ground floor and there will be a prolonged period in which much of the area becomes a building site. Once complete the hospitality businesses in the area, particularly the Fire Station will face a challenge to their existing licensing terms from any new residents that have retained their hearing.That there aren't lots of vacant units along this stretch can be explained by landlords finally realising they need to be more flexible on rents and new businesses being give attractive first year terms to set up. However, we are slowly heading to the area being dominated not by shops but second rank estate agents and enablement centres for delivery businesses.Markets can help arrest this decline to a certain extent but not a food market because that has a negative impact on the struggling hospitality businesses in the area - before anyone dismisses what I say, speak to the owners of local cafes and restaurants to hear their point of view.

Francis Rowe ● 1171d

“Ultimately making a road more difficult to cross will mean fewer people will cross it.”That’s undeniable, but with the cycleway has come significantly less traffic, and that will make it easier to cross. The one place where we can directly measure a difference from C9 is at the bus stops. We have several of them now on bus islands along C9 down King St and the High Road while a few are unchanged.  TfL have released boarding numbers for them in 2018 and 2022 and there’s no significant difference for the change in boarders at stops on or off islands. It’s been well documented that shopkeepers overestimate the proportion of customers arriving by car. In fact the OMP car park was and is seldom full.

Tom Pike ● 1171d

Tom, there may have been fewer vehicle movements since the changes on Chiswick High Road but clearly there is not less traffic as congestion seems to be much more prevalent than it used to be which is bound to happen if you reduce the capacity of a road.I haven't used the central car park in Chiswick since my children were small which is now decades ago and it always used to be touch and go if you would get a space. My observation is that it is now rarely full as you say but, as previously mentioned, that probably has more to do with it now having a single access point which someone unfamiliar with the area will be unlikely to find. This is a view which seems to be a consensus among local business owners.Once again, it must be stressed that people whose livelihoods depend on understanding the needs of their customers will have a better feel for the impact of reduced parking space on their takings than you do. 'Research' that has pointed to revenue from customers who drive being over stated seems largely to have been commissioned by councils seeking to build on car parks or put fees up. In practice, some businesses will not be affected by parking availability while for others it will have a direct and noticeable impact on their bottom line.

Francis Rowe ● 1171d

TP writes "It’s been well documented that shopkeepers overestimate the proportion of customers arriving by car. In fact the OMP car park was and is seldom full."Again TP awes us with yet another helping of his anecdotal arguments regarding cars, parking and shopping, whilst blithely ignoring the fact it's highly likely that a  empty car park signifies that people have gone elsewhere to shop. Carry on Tommy old bean...

Loraine Pemberton ● 1171d

I live just off CHR  so am up and down often.I will now pay more attention to the number of cyclists groaning under the weight of shopping hanging from handlebars, bulging from saddle bags and spilling over from baskets.I have to say I haven't noticed many before but obviously it must just be me wandering around obviously.Isn't it?

Adrian Irving ● 1170d

You seem to be believing your prejudices rather than the evidence yet again Francis.Multiple different research (no quote marks) in multiple countries across N America and Europe has shown retailers consistently overestimate the proportion of their customers coming by car.  Your explanation appears to be some  conspiracy on the part of councils all over the world.  A simpler explanation is that unless retailers have done their own systematic survey of their customers (as the research does), they simply aren't very good at guessing.This is just one example, there are lots more.https://phys.org/news/2021-07-shoppers-mobility-habits-retailers-overestimate.html"This misperception could be due to a human tendency to assume that others behavior in a similar manner. The survey revealed that traders who drive to their business estimated much higher customer car use (29%) than traders that use other modes of transport (between 10% and 19%)."

Michael Robinson ● 1170d

The DfT figures show the delay from Goldhawk Road to Heathfield Terrace actually fell in 2021, when C9 was opened compared to the previous year. Last year the delay matched 2019. The peak bus times, as I’ve shown earlier, haven’t seen a deterioration either.Your reliance on second-hand information doesn’t trump independent surveys. That’s why companies like Springboard exist.

Tom Pike ● 1170d

We have unfortunately seen what trials mean in Hounslow - avoid proper public consultations and make situations permanent by the back door.

Mandy Waters ● 1170d

A survey done in Berlin may be useful in a local context but you can't use it as a basis for a claim that all traders across the world including those in Chiswick consistently overestimate the importance of customers who come by car. Like most of the other surveys that have come to this conclusion, it has to be questioned whether the result was predetermined. One of the authors works for Active Travel Melbourne and his job is literally to promote active travel. The available research seems largely to have been commissioned when a council wants to develop a car park site or put up charges. I'd therefore be disinclined to prejudge what the impact on reducing car parking space is likely to be and give more credence to what local business people say.You have quoted bus data before but sadly it remains inaccessible to the layman so it is hard to verify your claims. What we do know is that there have been factors at play in traffic patterns locally far more impactful than C9 so trying to make a case about its effect in isolation is difficult.What I can say for sure that observing static traffic in the centre of Chiswick was a relative rare event prior to 2020 and usually indicated a specific problem such as an accident on the A4. Now it endemic. While your figures on bus travel times require further explanation they don't negate what is a very evident observable increase of congestion on the High Road.

Francis Rowe ● 1170d

We also see manipulation of views by social media with misrepresentation of facts.

Philippa Bond ● 1170d

Francis, Hounslow also did a survey on Chiswick High Rd in 2016.  Retailers estimated 20% of customers came by car.  The actual figure was 8%. The percentages may vary from location to location but the key point is the same irrespective of location.  Retailers consistently overestimate the proportion of their customers coming by car. You seem to be doubling down presenting anecdotes as fact 'observing static traffic in the centre of Chiswick was a relative rare event prior to 2020 ' Can you present some actual data rather than anecdotes? What do your 'observations' say the average time taken to travel the length of Chiswick High Rd during the morning peak was in 2015 and what is it now?

Michael Robinson ● 1170d

“You have quoted bus data before but sadly it remains inaccessible to the layman so it is hard to verify your claims.”That is an odd claim as the data was specifically requested by a member of the public who wanted to prove a point. Just as you confidently assert that delays have increased, the FOI request asked:“Do you have data to show the route is now much slower compared to say last November? It takes ages now and is so congested especially at peak times 4-6pm.”The timings provided show clearly that the premise of the request was incorrect. You can confirm that for yourself if you are really interested, but maybe you prefer to pontificate without being too constrained by the data.https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2644-2122

Tom Pike ● 1170d

Tom, I have looked at the data that is available including many of the links that you have provided.What it does not do is provide convincing evidence to contradict the evidence of my observations over the last few years namely that static traffic on Chiswick High Road is a much more common phenomenon than it was pre-Covid.It would be interesting to hear from others whether they concur or not particularly people who are on the High Road every day which I am not.

Francis Rowe ● 1165d

Can you post the evidence of your observations both pre- and post Covid Francis?I'd expect to see:- time and date of each observation- measure you are observing.  I'm assuming this will be the time taken by vehicles between 2 locations on Chiswick High Rd.  What is your estimate of the time taken for eastbound and westbound journeys between Chiswick roundabout and Goldhawk Rd?If you can't provide this, then all you have is an anecdote.

Michael Robinson ● 1164d

I'm on the High Road almost every day, and I can't concur. As a pedestrian I dislike the cycleway, but I don't believe that there's much more static traffic than there was before Covid. I think a lot of motorists have significantly reduced car use for local journeys. I certainly have.But don't ask my opinion about the road manners of some of the additional cyclists who've been attracted by the cycleway, and particularly the scooter and moped riders who, when the traffic is static, zoom along well in excess of 20mph, completely on the wrong side of the road.

Robert Fish ● 1164d

Think it very much depends where you are on the High Road. I walk down from Acton Lane fairly regularly and queues back up to the roundabout by Chiswick Park station are a near constant as are queues trailing back as far as I can see from the junction with the High Road back towards Chiswick Roundabout.It looks like they might be deliberately limiting the amount of traffic that gets into the centre of Chiswick which may explain why, if you walk in that part you perceive there to be less traffic.Although you may have reduced use of your vehicle, I was under the impression that the number of journeys being made is back up to that seen before the pandemic. People may be avoiding CHR because of the congestion but that seems to have created extra pressure on the back streets around Acton Green which have more traffic on them than I have ever seen before.

Anita Blake ● 1164d

Interesting to hear both these replies.I am talking about the centre of Chiswick when I say I'm observing more static traffic and I rarely get up to the western end. Robert may be on the High Road at different times of day to me - I would tend to be there more at the weekend and in the evenings. What I would add is that although it seems to me that gridlock has become more common there are also occasions in which all traffic seems to have completely disappeared even though it is a time when you would expect it to be busy. I can only guess this has something to do with the way Chiswick High Road fits into the broader traffic management objectives of TfL.

Francis Rowe ● 1164d

I'm assuming there is no chance of you actually providing any evidence rather than anecdotes, Francis.This is a good illustration of why data is important because anecdotes such as yours are so unreliable, influenced by prejudice and the human tendency to only remember some exceptions rather than all the other times when there was nothing remarkable happening, particularly your claims about conditions 4 or more years ago.

Michael Robinson ● 1164d

Unfortunately Michael major changes were made to our local road infrastructure without any attempt being made to collect data which would properly track their impact.This makes it impossible to reach conclusions either way on whether or not the changes made have had a positive impact and resulted in both sides claiming the numbers that we have support their view.That leaves no choice really but to fall back on observation. I accept that this has weaknesses and lacks the rigor needed to reach precise conclusion but I can say with some confidence that my experience has been that the High Road over the last two years has had an notably higher instance of traffic being static in the central part of Chiswick than it did pre the pandemic. The rise has been so pronounced that I can rule out it being based on misremembering or any preconceptions. I am confident that my observation is accurate because pre-Covid if traffic was stuck then there would always be a reason e.g. Hammersmith Flyover closed, accident on the A4 or rugby at Twickenham. Now static vehicles on the High Road seems to be endemic and no particular cause is evident. It is perfectly possible to someone to reach different conclusions if they visit at different times of the day of the week - both can be right. I acknowledge the High Road isn't constantly gridlocked and can at times appear surprisingly empty when you would expect it to be busy.I'm not trying to make a specifically anti-C9 argument here - I fully accept that the evidence required to show that it has caused this congestion is simply not strong enough to go to the massive expense of ripping it up. The reason I raised this in the first place was to urge more support for shops based south of the High Road because it had become difficult to cross - I only mentioned the congestion as an aside.

Francis Rowe ● 1164d

It is much easier to do a recce on a bike than in a car.  Then you can decide whether you want to go to the bother of bringing a car in to collect a large purchase or a huge number of small purchases whether you will arrange for it to be delivered to you.

Philippa Bond ● 1163d

I've also observed that the centre of Chiswick can alternate between being completely snarled to being surprisingly free of traffic.What seems likely is that traffic management is becoming more sophisticated. There are a number of pinch points in the central section of Chiswick High Road. With the Queen having famously become stuck on here and emergency services vehicles also having problems, the strategy now appears to be to keep this clear.On most days traffic queues are observable back from the lights east bound at Acton Lane and west bound at Chiswick Lane so they appear to be throttling traffic into the central section.  This makes the centre of Chiswick appear to be relatively traffic free.However, if the queues reach a certain point either back to Chiswick Roundabout or back to Hammersmith Broadway, it looks like they are able to change the phases. This then releases the queueing traffic into the main shopping area and this could be what Francis and others are observing. It isn't that there are more vehicles but that the management leads to bunching.So, contradictory as it may seem, we have fewer vehicles on the High Road because they are being discouraged from going this way due to the throttling at both ends, generally freer flowing traffic in the central section but an increase in the number of occasions it is gridlocked.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1163d

"major changes were made to our local road infrastructure without any attempt being made to collect data which would properly track their impact."That's not correct though Francis.There are annual DfT traffic surveys on CHR, annual TfL traffic surveys on CHR, there are cameras at Turnham Green Terrace and Goldhawk Rd recording vehicle numbers 24x7, each bus has a GPS tracker so there are bus timings, there are commercial data services using vehicle GPS available from companies like INRIX for a price and many councils subscribe to these.

Michael Robinson ● 1163d

Francis, as Michael said there is data published on traffic flows, traffic delays, bus running times and pollution, both before and after C9. None of that data supports your claims. What they do show is that traffic has reduced significantly on the High Road, pollution is down and there has been no increase in bus running times at the evening peak, as the FOI was attempting to prove. Delays on the High Road fir traffic in general have not increased either. Those who are not willing to take the effort to look at the numbers, or are unable to analyse the data or suspect that the data does not support their prejudice will tend to dismiss all this evidence and resort to anecdote.

Tom Pike ● 1163d

The available data may not my confirm observations but it doesn't contradict it either.Mark carefully what I am actually saying. I have observed far more instances of static traffic in the centre of Chiswick than there was pre-Covid. I'm not saying that it is always blocked up, just some of the time, and usually only in one direction. This isn't necessarily negated by simple vehicle counting. Nobody is disputing that there are fewer vehicles on the High Road.Jeremy's explanation fits the available evidence very well. There is clearly some sort of change in the way that traffic flows are being managed on Chiswick High Road which has caused more static queues in the centre. However, it is also often clearer than it used to be, possibly due to the corralling of traffic at each end, so if there has indeed been no increase in average journey times, this does negate my observations.Also a fall in pollution does mean my observations are invalid either. Pollution readings have been falling across London and were always likely to drop sharply in Chiswick due to a cleaner bus fleet and fewer buses serving the High Road. Add to that the extra distance now between the measuring station and the traffic lane and you can't rule out a rise in static traffic on the High Road combined with a fall in pollution. Slower traffic also means that hybrid buses don't use their diesel engines so, ironically, congestion might even be serving to reduce pollution readings.Unfortunately no measurements are being taken for comparison at the two ends of the central section of the High Road and the Chiswick Lane and Acton Lane junction. I do have my own very crude measure of pollution on the High Road - how much discomfort I experience with my contact lenses. This has seen no noticeable difference on the main drag over the last few years but a distinct deterioration near the junction with Acton Lane. This may be partly due to the traffic queues but I suspect it is more down to the large construction sites nearby. A proper implementation of these changes would have seen pollution monitoring near the Acton Lane and Chiswick Lane junctions before and after so that the impact could have been more accurately assessed.

Francis Rowe ● 1160d

Sorry Francis but your observations are simply anecdotes and can’t be treated seriously. 
If you had systematically taken measurements at the same time and location over a period of time and could produce the data then that would be worthy of consideration but you didn’t so it is nothing more than opinion. Given the council will have actual data from multiple sources it is safe to say no weight will be given to opinions if contradicted by actual evidence. There is also no need to have pollution monitors everywhere as pollution can be accurately modelled using the available data from monitors, traffic data and known profiles of how pollution behaves. The London Air Quality Network doesn’t need to have pollution monitors covering every square metre of London to produce maps like this of NO2 levels. You are also perfectly illustrating the point that it doesn’t matter how much data is available, opponents of restrictions to motor traffic will always say there needs to be more.

Michael Robinson ● 1159d

There is data to test Francis’s latest anecdote-based hypothesis. As mentioned earlier, the 267 average running times have not suffered during the evening peak.  TfL also give the standard deviation, so according to Francis this should have increased significantly, reflecting the much larger variability in travel time. In fact comparing the first two weeks in 2020 with the same period in 2022 it has hardly shifted, increasing by less than 20 seconds.

Tom Pike ● 1159d

Tom, I'd argue that consistent and regular observations over a prolonged period goes beyond anecdote and does have some evidential value.To persuade me that what I have seen is incorrect you are supply data which is both opaque and frankly beyond my capabilities to properly interpret but I do know that in the past you have made assertions based on data which, when I looked in more detail, appeared to be advocacy for a preconceived point of view rather than a rigorous analysis of what the numbers were actually showing. Therefore, for the time being, I am inclined to remain convinced that my own observations are correct. More so since the beginning of this discussion since Jeremy's explanation have made the apparent contradictions in what I have observed make sense.What is really needed is somebody with the necessary skillset but without preconceived opinions to take a proper look at the available data and tell us what is actually happening.

Francis Rowe ● 1159d

Francis,  your observations aren't 'consistent and regular'. If they were, you would have done them at the same location at the same time over a period of time and you would have actually recorded the results of whatever observation you were taking.  You didn't.  You are giving us nothing more than anecdotes.Of course you will continue to believe your anecdotes.  I wouldn't expect anything else from you given your previous pronouncements on the cycleway.

Michael Robinson ● 1159d

Francis, can you given example of where you have looked at the data in detail and shown that my conclusions were incorrect? Otherwise, it's just another one of  your anecdotes, and with a similar level of reliability. Just up the thread I gave you the details of the FOI on the 267 running times. You appear not even to have made the effort to look at the data, let alone tried to interpret it. That FOI gives the average running time for each period of every day between February 2020 and February 2022. That is the data required to make a rigorous analysis, not your occasional observations of traffic on the High Road.

Tom Pike ● 1159d

Here you go Francis, perhaps do this and tell us what you think afterwards: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/short-courses/search-courses/statistics-and-research-methods-introduction-evening-course

John Hall ● 1159d

Francis, looking again at the data and comparing with your observations, which you said were mostly made in the evenings and weekends, those are actually the times when the westbound 267 has been running more quickly than in February 2020. The requestor of the FOI made similar assumptions based on their own observations, claiming that the cycleway was increasing delays specifically for the westbound service at the evening peak. In fact as the data shows the service at this time has been running marginally quicker. Of course the signalling has been changed in response to C9. After all, there is a new signal-controlled bus gate at the junction with Acton Lane which was installed precisely to give buses improved priority. This means that buses have been given a clearer run down the High Road and I think everyone agrees we are seeing less traffic partly as a result. Similarly the signalling has been extensively modified at Hammersmith gyratory, and there the timings are dynamically modified to prevent traffic locking up as well. TfL are quite open that their aim is to prioritise sustainable modes of transport, and that means in comparison deprioritising private motor vehicles while also not locking up traffic flow with the resultant delay to the bus service. The observations, that bus times have not deteriorated, and that traffic on the High Road is lower, is right in line with TfL's aims. That is exactly "what is actually happening".

Tom Pike ● 1159d

It has to be said that none of the inveterate opponents of Cycleway 9 have been able to construct a convincing argument based on bus data that there have been significant delays. Therefore I am not totally discounting what you are saying.However, you have on this forum for example claimed that the closure of Hammersmith Bridge had majority support of amongst residents and had reduced congestion and pollution. I believe that, no matter what the truth of the matter, if anyone suggests that there has been any negative impact on the area from C9, you will marshal your impressive statistical skills to construct an argument to counter their assertion. Therefore, I continue to believe the evidence of my own eyes.

Francis Rowe ● 1159d

Francis, indeed westbound evening delays to buses on the High Road are most strongly determined by the level of traffic on the A4 and the resulting displacement to the High Road. That has not changed with C9. It is clear that in the immediate aftermath of the closure there were significant issues with congestion before adjustments to travel took place. I certainly didn’t claim that the bridge closure had majority support of residents, but rather that sentiment later shifted.  There is also no doubt that traffic and pollution levels have reduced after the closure, and that delays have returned close to preclosure levels. You haven’t ever provided “detailed analysis” otherwise.As for issues with C9, there was an uptick in collisions on the Chiswick Lane to Goldhawk Road section before the upgrade, and similarly at Rivercourt and Weltje Road.  It’s important to recognise where implementation needs to be improved, not ignore where there have been negative impacts; I had in fact, even before C9 was installed, specifically pointed out that junction treatments of side roads was critical to the safety of a bidirectional cycle lane.  There is also very solid evidence that C9 has been associated with a significant  increase of cycling on the High Road, and that the predictions that it would lead to soaring pedestrian injuries have completely failed to materialise.None of these should be controversial points, and they require neither sophisticated statistical analysis or blind faith to accept. Your insistence in preferring your own irregular observations over carefully gathered data suggests you are somewhat reluctant to give up your preconceptions regarding C9, despite the weight of the evidence.

Tom Pike ● 1159d

I can't seem to find the application - I wonder if it has been withdrawn or worked its way through the system.I attended the first ever meeting about the Flower Market pre-Covid and I was really impressed with what they were aiming to do and am ever more impressed with what they have done, all, it seems, with volunteers and as a non-profit which just feels like such a virtuous cycle - especially with the work of Abundance London (I think) who added to the flowerbeds in the area! I remember thinking at the time that if we were to have a market every Sunday then Chiswick would become more and more of a destination place (Londoners waking up in the morning, wondering what to do with their day, and visiting Chiswick because there will be market of some sort going).Can someone tell me if the Flower Market runs the other 2 market days - the vintage and the cheese?  I don't know much about the application for the street-food market and my initial question would be who pays for the clean up? Is it a part of the Flower Market not-for-profit model?Would just be interested to know a bit more.

Sarah Watts ● 1158d

Hi SarahI don't respond publicly on the forum any more as it inevitably leads to abuse about unrelated matters from the usual suspects. However, I am happy to respond to your query, and nothing in my response is private or secret. I believe the application for the Street Food Market is still live, but the deadline for responding has passed (2 July), so presumably they are preparing for a licensing panel to meet and decide on it. I understand they had quite a few objections and also supportive emails. All the markets must have agreements re refuse collection, it is part of their licence agreement. The Flower Market (of which I am a director, as well as the director of Abundance) is a community project, not-for-profit, we all work pro bono. Our flower traders are contractually obliged to leave their pitches clean and to take any of their own rubbish home with them. We often clear up Old Market Place on our arrival early Sunday morning, after a lively Saturday night, and we leave the area clean. We have had no complaints in our nearly 3 years. Profits go into the community - eg. paying for flower beds, planting on Turnham Green, commissioning plans to improve Old Market Place and running the current Co-Design initiative with Create Space (to which I hope you have responded, via chiswickflowermarket.com).We do not run the other markets. The Cheese Market has a similar CIC structure to us, local people, mostly pro bono (I think they pay a manager on the day), their profits go into  hunger alleviation and related stuff (eg. new cheesemaker education).The vintage & antiques market is a commercial operation, a woman based in St Albans runs it. They are less compliant than cheese and flowers, and there have been some comments that they spill out from their designated areas (and sometimes leave their signage on our flower beds - grrr).The Street Food founder lives in Bedford Park, so he is local, which is good. It is a commercial venture, so that is different from us, but all the markets need to be successful, it just depends what they do with their profits. I understand that he will provide two of those big commercial chest dustbins for rubbish, and have a couple of staff to clear up after the markets. I assume his traders also have to leave their pitches clean. I assume all that would be a condition of his licence.All licences are for six months, so in theory could be stopped if there were serious infringements.

Karen Liebreich ● 1157d

So... it seems I do reply publicly. Ah well...

Karen Liebreich ● 1157d

The impressive thing about the Flower Market is the amount of volunteer support and this seems to ensure little trace of it having taken place is evident the following day.Can't see that being the case for a Street Food market which is going to generate more litter and the event won't have the human resources of the other market. Would the licence require the site to be left as it was found or would the licensee simply have to show that they have made provision by providing bins?

Mark Evans ● 1157d

I greatly appreciate the full response Karen (I also don't comment on forums) but it's good to understand what's going on with the market(s)).I think the flower market is a a force for good and yes, I responded to the current plans when requested in an email.Thank you so much.

Sarah Watts ● 1157d

I too don't comment on forums but I was wondering about the security of tenure for existing markets which I think most people agree are invaluable.If the commercial streetfood market turned out to be hugely profitable and decided it wanted to expand to weekly events, how would the council decide between competing licence applications for the same site?

Francis Rowe ● 1157d

Francis, if a market wanted additional days then the obvious thing would be to apply for Saturdays.I've glanced at the licensing policy on Hounslow website and there is a renewal process for an existing license holder so assuming they requested a renewal, Hounslow would have to explicitly reject this with valid cause (and there may be an appeal) before they could consider a new license application.

Michael Robinson ● 1157d