Forum Topic

Fingers Crossed for London Irish

I was very alarmed to read the article on this site about the plight of London Irish. I hadn't realised things had got to this state.I'm not a season ticket holder but have on several occasions since they came to Brentford gone along to games and always really enjoyed it. Great atmosphere and they play attractive attacking rugby.If Newcastle are also struggling you do fear for the future of the club game as a whole in this country.I hope Brentford can be persuaded to be supportive. The damage to the pitch may be a challenge, and it could be that Irish are unwilling to pay the full cost. However, when the deal was signed originally, I was told that Brentford got much the better side of the deal for the bar takings on match day which are much higher than those for football matches even though attendances overall are lower.The danger for the Bees is that the rugby club will get a new backer who will want them to move to a new ground with a better deal on bar takings. The Plough Lane stadium in Wimbledon only needs to increase capacity by a few hundred to meet rugby Premiership standards and there already is a deal between London Broncos and AFC Wimbledon but Irish would be a much more attractive partner.

Francis Rowe ● 1269d93 Comments

Re the BFC/LIRFC deal, had BFC known they were going to get promoted to the Prem, they wouldn't have bothered with the groundshare, since the rent (rumoured to be £500k p.a.?) is but a fraction of the club's current revenue.But hindsight is 20/20, the club was happy to do the deal at the time (as were LIRC), so unless LIRFC want/need to pull out, then BFC should - and will - honour it.As for LIRFC moving to share with AFC Wimbledon, you can surely never have been there. For although the stadium itself is fine, forget SW19-type notions of tennis, strawberries and cream and wombling along the green and pleasant Common etc: the whole area around Plough Lane itself is horrible. While access, whether by public transport or by car, is far worse than the GTech stadium, too. Plus Brentford is much closer to LIRFC's traditional base in Sunbury, while those fans whom they picked up in/around the Thames Valley during their time at Reading are much more likely to come into town to see them at Brentford than schlep all the way further to Wimbledon.More generally, with the exceptions of France and Ireland, professional rugby union in Europe is pretty much a financial basket case, with no sign of that changing any time soon. In fact I suspect that many leading English clubs will have to go part-time if they are to survive.Or finally admit defeat, abolish all this grunting forwards nonsense, jettison two players per team and go full-on Rugby League lol.

Richard Cathcart ● 1269d

The symbiosis between Brentford football club and London Irish is going swimmingly up to now.Lockdowns hit all professional Rugby Union clubs very badly, and LI, in their quest to compete with the best, appear to have overspent and are now in danger of administration.Unfortunately, unlike professional football, there is not a queue of oligarchs or Saudi Arabian multi millionaires waiting to take over their affairs.After what happened to Wasps (twice European champions) and Worcester Warriors this season, both ceremoniously despatched to the lower divisions for financial failings, the immediate future for the Irish does not look good.A far cry from 1998 when three London rugby clubs fell into administration; Richmond and London Scottish were sacrificed to the bottom divisions while LI were let off the hook and remained in the top flight.

Denis I. Fox ● 1269d

Richard, I have been to Plough Lane on many occasions over the years and the area is unattractive I would agree. Much worse than the surroundings of the GTech? - arguably not.The assumption you appear to be making though is that perfect is available somewhere. If Brentford want out of the deal, then a new ground needs to be found somewhere in the south east. Perhaps you could give a list of the other options aside from the Cherry Red Records Stadium that believe would be better? I tried and could only come up with this one as a viable option.There is some reason to be optimistic though. Looking at the detail of the article on London Irish's current position it is clear just how important commercial revenue is to Brentford. If you have ever been in The Dugout after a London Irish game you would see clearly how rugby supporters have contributed to The Bees being able to hang on to Ivan Toney. This cash flow is probably many times the rent the club plays and that would have been a factor behind agreeing to the deal. It becomes less significant overall with the club in the Premier League but is still considerable.For Irish I believe it would be far more important to get a better share of F&B than have an ideal location. Plough Lane is quite easy to reach by train or car from the Sunbury area and I am sceptical that there is a hardcore of Irish fans from Buckinghamshre that would outweigh the extra numbers that would come from the diaspora in South London.

Francis Rowe ● 1268d

I looked at Leicester Tigers financial statements (they own their ground so not directly comparable)They got £5.8M from ticket sales, £4.1M from RFU/PRL and £8.9M from commercial income.Of the commercial, £3M was from sponsorship, £2.3M from match day hospitality boxes and executive boxes, £1.7M from retail (online and club shop), some revenue from hotel at stadium and £0.4M from “barrelage and match day parking”.I hadn’t heard the term barrelage before. Is this beer sales?Leicester made a loss of £2M for the year.These figures would suggest that food and beverage for the general punter aren’t significant sources of income.

Michael Robinson ● 1268d

As I say, one trip to The Dugout would demonstrate to you that a huge amount of cash is being taken. This is only happen around 12 times a year but there must be a £100,000 at least coming in each session. That's just one bar and doesn't include the takings during the matches.Not been to Welford Road for a long time but I do remember a large bar at the North stand which was very busy although not as hectic as at the GTech.If you are right that I am over-estimating the value of this to Brentford, it makes the continued presence of Irish at the GTech look very tenuous. I doubt for example they are making a full contribution to pitch repair costs given their current financial woes.

Francis Rowe ● 1268d

FR: "I have been to Plough Lane on many occasions over the years and the area is unattractive I would agree. Much worse than the surroundings of the GTech? - arguably not."RC: "Arguably not"? The 25 minute walk along Durnsford Road from Wimbledon Park Tube (nearest to PL) is truly horrible, far worse than any comparable 25 minute walk in any direction from the GTech. And once you get there, the area immediately around the AFCW stadium is thoroughly depressing (imo), with the comparison summed up by the difference between the nearby Wandle and Thames rivers!FR: "The assumption you appear to be making though is that perfect is available somewhere"RC: Not my assumption at all. In most respects bar one, the Gtech is a great venue for LIRFC, with the "one" being affordability. I've said why I think Plough Lame would be (much) worse, primarily location and accessibility. And while QPR would better meet that last test, being in West London, and QPR need the rent, the stadium itself is increasingly decrepit.Beyond that, I can't think of anywhere else even remotely suitable.FR: "Looking at the detail of the article on London Irish's current position it is clear just how important commercial revenue is to Brentford."RC: Sorry, but that's plain wrong. For 2020/21, BFC's revenue was £140.9m, giving a profit of £27.7m after tax. LIRFC's (runoured) £500k rent p.a. possibly doesn't even cover the extra pitch maintenance, seeing as the club now employs 10 full-time groundstaff for the GTech and Training ground alone.As for your estimated £100k food and drink per game over 12 games, we don't know that this all goes to BFC. And even if it does, every £6 pint of beer will cost the vendor the most of that to put in a glass before a thirsty punter, leaving only a fraction in profit.FR: "This cash flow is probably many times the rent the club plays and that would have been a factor behind agreeing to the deal."RC: That was then, when BFC's own revenue (before transfer trading) was £15m p.a. In the here and now of the PL, BFC's revenue is nearly 10 times that. I'm sure they will honour LIRFC's lease, but if LIRFC wanted out early, I've no doubt BFC would be happy with that.And as for your assessment that South London has a significant diaspora of LIRFC fans, maybe so, but I cannot see how that would make up for 100 years in West London and another 20 years West of London. In my experience football fans, of whatever code, are creatures of habit and tradition - see eg Wasps and their demise following the move to Coventry, or (ahem) MK Dons and their current struggles near the foot of League One.Oh, and I've just remembered, AFC Wimbledon are already renting their stadium out to London Broncos since last season!

Richard Cathcart ● 1268d

I haven’t been following this closely but hasn’t Ealing Trailfinders promotion to the premiership been knocked back because their ground doesn’t meet requirements?Won’t they have been on the lookout for suitable alternative venues?I think it has been mooted Ealing could join the URC instead of Premiership but I think it is unlikely the RFU would sanction that.

Michael Robinson ● 1268d

Afaik a lot of people behind Trailfinders believe that the current Premiership clubs want to maintain their present privileged position and so deny promotion to Trailfinders - effectively a closed shop.In which case the ground capacity issue is a convenient excuse.And such opposition is likely to be reinforced further, should they agree to the suggestion to reduce the Prem from its present 11 clubs to 10 clubs, for which the easiest mechanism would be one relegated, none promoted.

Richard Cathcart ● 1268d

The Premiership is in such a state at the moment if Chiswick RFC U14s applied to join they would probably pause and think about letting them in. Fewer teams means fewer games means less revenue which is desperately needed so some way has to be found to get the number of fixtures up. The notion that a cartel is excluding teams makes no sense.Not sure why the RFU made the ruling they did on Ealing and I'd assume the threat to turn Welsh is a bluff but it seems like a huge error to not have accepted a financially sound, if stadium challenged team into the league. In theory Ealing could gain their place in the Premiership by moving to the GTech but I doubt the RFU would approve an arrangement which involved the eviction of an existing team.On Loftus Road, I thought I read that the pitch size was now deemed too small for Premiership Rugby. If it isn't that could be an option again although it is surprising Ealing haven't opted for this if you believe QPR are desperate enough to provide a good deal.As for London Broncos you would have known about their residency at Plough Lane if you had read my initial post. I'm working on the assumption that Irish could offer a better deal but it is entirely probable that is wrong. I had understood that QPR had ruled ou

Francis Rowe ● 1268d

FR: "Fewer teams means fewer games means less revenue which is desperately needed so some way has to be found to get the number of fixtures up. The notion that a cartel is excluding teams makes no sense."RC: From the Times, October 22nd 2022:"Proposals to reduce the Gallagher Premiership to ten teams and introduce a Premiership Two division will be examined as part of an urgent review of the structure of the English club game."https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crisis-hit-gallagher-premiership-could-be-reduced-to-ten-teams-amid-urgent-review-ljg6j0j33Or from The Independent (same month):"Exeter boss Rob Baxter has indicated that a Gallagher Premiership of 10 clubs could be the way forward for English domestic rugby’s flagship competition."https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rob-baxter-gallagher-premiership-english-worcester-warriors-worcester-b2201062.htmlFrom 'Rugby Pass' (October):"RFU backs reduction of Premiership to 10 teams"https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-backs-reduction-of-premiership-to-10-teams/Whatever their reasons, there are plenty who would like to see the Prem reduced which, if adopted, would be an additional hurdle to Trailfinders' hopes.Re Loftus Road, even if pitch dimensions permitted, why would Trailfinders be interested in paying rent to someone else, when they already have a ground of their own, which should meet, or be made to meet, reasonable Prem requirements? (Stress the "reasonable")And as for Plough Lane, we must assume that Broncos have a lease. Meaning someone would have to compensate them should they be turfed out to accomodate LIRFC.

Richard Cathcart ● 1268d

Not looking good for London Irish. Reports that they have until Tuesday to provide proof of finance but the supposed American investors haven’t come through.  If no money then they won’t be in next season’s premiership and no guarantees they can even play in lower leagues.

Michael Robinson ● 1210d

Come this coming Tuesday, London Irish will meet their fate- Expulsion from the national leagues.I cannot foresee the consortium from America bailing this famous old rugby club out of trouble, and they will follow London Welsh, Worcester and Wasps before them down to the very bottom league.The reality is rugby, for all its attributes cannot attract the millions who follow football worldwide, and the resultant money the game attracts through the turnstiles, TV and sponsorship.The Irish would (past tense used in the vain hope a magic money tree arrives before deadline on Tuesday) play as amateurs until progression to national league standard.And the would get there, and delight their crazy fans on the way.

Denis I. Fox ● 1210d

Look no further than years of destructive lockdowns and other unnecessary Covid mandates, which I don't recall you ever complaining about or even questioning on here, Mr Rowe. Why might this be?

Michael Brown ● 1210d

"Look no further than years of destructive lockdowns and other unnecessary Covid mandates, which I don't recall you ever complaining about or even questioning on here, Mr Rowe. Why might this be?"Because the overwhelming view among the medical and scientific community across the globe was that they were necessary and, despite the measures taken, huge numbers of people died from the disease.The loss of London Irish would be a disaster for the English came but in the short term, it might provide the opportunity for a quick fix for the RFU if Brentford could be persuaded to let Ealing take over the ground share.

Francis Rowe ● 1210d

Mr Brown should stick to posting about things on which he has some knowledge The financial model of rugby in the UK has been broken for over 20 years of course. Richmond and London Scottish both went into administration within two years of the premiership forming and that was at The turn of The century. London Welsh went into administration fourteen years ago when their annual losses were exceeded by the salary paid to a single player. The professional model has not served the game at all well and the RFU has sat back while clubs crumbled. The salary cap was too little, too late.

N V Brooks ● 1210d

Anyone with a brain knew at the time how destructive the Covid measures would be to every aspect of society, and this has proved to be the case; and there is no evidence that shows there was any benefit from the measures, plus excess deaths are just as high now as ever. The vax-damaged appears to account for many, and the cover-up continues. As if the government would spend £400b on a mild virus that mainly affects the elderly. Social destruction was always the plan and, from their perspective, they did a good job.

Michael Brown ● 1210d

Meanwhile, back on rugby. The financial problems faced by the professional game in the UK were evident for almost two decades before the pandemic.

N V Brooks ● 1210d

That may be true but the collapse of two, possibly three long-established clubs over the last year is clearly due to the impact of Covid.All professional sport, not just rugby, is plagued with financial uncertainty and it is easy to blame owners and administrators but that doesn't recognise that the recent challenges were significant and couldn't have been predicted.English club rugby is in a tail spin and something needs to be done. I am against salary caps to protect the interest of owners - they may be justified to ensure a more competitive league but players should generally be paid what they are worth. It is a short uncertain career with little guarantee of success for most.If I was the RFU I'd be inclined to make up the numbers for the league by inviting Ealing and Jersey in and then going forward making admission to the Premiership by invitation only with no automatic relegation. That would at least give some more certainty for next year's revenues and give more financial predictability going forward.This might only be a short term fix and ultimately the future of English club rugby could be with the URC.

Francis Rowe ● 1210d

Sports enthusiasts could talk all day and night about the financial difficulties cricket counties and rugby franchises face.This would bore most readers silly but one certainty is the conversations would be a lot more interesting than the constant talk about the non-entity that is Phillip Schofield.

Denis I. Fox ● 1210d

Wasps and Worcester were already 8n deep financial trouble with eight figure indebtedness well before COVID-19. Sure, it didn't help but these were not viable businesses anyway. Saracens will be next with debts approaching £40million or more

N V Brooks ● 1210d

People have different interests and just because I don't particularly care either way about Philip Schofield doesn't mean what happens is irrelevant to some.The fate of London Irish on the other hand has local importance. I don't have an attachment to the club but had come to enjoy wandering down to the GTech to catch the occasional game. They will be sorely missed by me if they go.

Francis Rowe ● 1210d

Saracens were deducted 20 odd points for over spending several seasons ago and consequently relegated.One thing puzzles me- Manchester City have countless charges on them for breaking the expenditure cap yet get away with this "cheating" season after season.Little wonder they walk away with the league title season after season.

Denis I. Fox ● 1210d

Just the odd 100+ alleged breaches of Financial Fair Play rules over NINE years !

N V Brooks ● 1210d

Investigate Chelsea next please and Nottingham Forest

Peter King ● 1209d

All Chelsea supporters would like to know what's going on at the Bridge, Peter.

Roger Talbot ● 1209d

One of the very few football clubs where you could have a full drains up and which does not have hundreds of millions of pounds of leveraged debt is Brentford.Gone are the days of indebtedness. It has been a remarkable turnaround.

N V Brooks ● 1209d

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65751962The future of London Irish hangs in the balance with Tuesday the deadline for the completion of their takeover.The club have been in protracted talks with an American consortium, with the Rugby Football Union demanding the deal is done by 30 May.If it is not, they risk being suspended from next season's Premiership.If no deal is done, and the current ownership refuse to fund the club going forward, Irish will be the third club this season to suffer financial ruin.While sources close to the deal insist talks are ongoing, another high-ranking club official has indicated there is little chance a deal can get completed at such short notice.This would mean current owner Mick Crossan would need to step in to stop the club going to the wall, as was the case with Wasps and Worcester earlier in the season.Crossan, who took over the club in 2013, met last month's payroll just as players were preparing to hand in breach of contract notices, which would have allowed them to leave the club in the event their wages went unpaid.Sources have indicated there is a possibility the deadline could be extended if certain conditions are met. However the RFU is still awaiting proof of funds from the United States.On 15 May, the RFU said the timescale had been set to "avoid a scenario where the club enters insolvency mid-season, with the corresponding and substantial impact that has on players, staff and fans, as well as on the remainder of the league".The governing body for rugby in England added: "This deadline was set to give enough time for the buyers to provide the information needed and for the transaction to complete."

Michael Robinson ● 1208d

So it looks like we will find out tomorrow. I have no inside knowledge here but it does look like to me that a game of chicken is being played here with the American investors looking to squeeze everything the can out of the deal. It has to be assumed that a good proportion of the debt is held by Mick Crossan himself and any takeover would have to consider what value to the pound he and other creditors get. Although this would be more than would be received if the club went into liquidation, Crossan may have been naive in indicating he was only prepared to fund the club on a month by month basis. He seems to have two choices now - tell the RFU that he will support the club financially through to the next season or walk away and hope the Americans aren't bluffing. Either way he stands to lose a substantial amount of money.

Francis Rowe ● 1208d

FR: "... it does look like to me that a game of chicken is being played here with the American investors looking to squeeze everything the can out of the deal"RC: Possibly. Alternatively, these Americans don't have/can't come up with the money - "All hat and no cattle", as they say over there.FR: "[Crossan] seems to have two choices now - tell the RFU that he will support the club financially through to the next season or walk away and hope the Americans aren't bluffing."RC: It may be that the former isn't really a choice i.e. he simply doesn't have the money to fund LIRFC for next season, never mind indefinitely?And as for the latter, since pro-rugby in this country is a financial basket case, with no sign of that changing any time soon, you really have to wonder what the Americans imagine is in it for them. With no obvious affinity to LIRFC specifically, or rugby generally, I fear they're either naive fools or chancers. Or both.We'll know more tomorrow, I expect.

Richard Cathcart ● 1208d

It seems unlikely that Crossan wouldn't have done due diligence on the American consortium. The problem isn't the day to day operations of English rugby clubs, it is the debt that they built up during Covid. Irish as an operating business, with European rugby ahead next season and crowds growing, would probably be cash positive. The Americans may be seeking to get there by taking much of the debt out of the occasion but that will mean £30million would have to be written off.

Francis Rowe ● 1208d

I haven't heard "All hat and no cattle" or "not a butt left to brand" since I worked in San Antonio. I do hope that there is a solution to London Irish else they will go the same way as London Welsh

N V Brooks ● 1208d

Apologies, I said 'occasion' rather than 'equation' above.

Francis Rowe ● 1208d

The consortium is apparently made up of a group of former NFL and NBA players and they apparently mainly are looking at the acquisition to gain access for the Sunbury on Thames grounds to form a base for an NFL franchise based in London. I don't think there is any question that they don't have the funds to acquire the club but Mick Crossan seems to have been maneuvered into a position where they could get what they want without putting a penny into London Irish.What seems of primary importance now is who exactly owns the training grounds. If it is still within the amateur club that shouldn't be a problem but if the professional club own it then this could be terminal not just for the premiership rugby side but the whole structure of London Irish which is far larger than the elite level team. If the club is liquidated and the training ground is one of the assets to be sold, it could possibly be taken over by someone who wants it to be used for purposes other than rugby. I think I am right in saying that if it became the base for an NFL squad, no planning permission would be needed.Wasps FC - the original club is still going strong in Acton because they retained ownership of their training ground but if London Irish lose their ground they will probably cease to exist.

Mark Evans ● 1208d

"Wasps FC - the original club is still going strong in Acton.."So what is/was the link between them and the Wasps who moved to Coventry ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1208d

The professional side trained at Acton all the way through their time at Loftus Road and High Wycombe and there were close ties with the amateur side of the club including the women's team and the youth set up. However, London Wasps was a separate legal entity to Wasps FC and paid a facilities fee for the use of the training ground and gym. This continued for a year or so after the club moved to the Ricoh but ended once most of the players relocated to the Midlands.I think Chris Wright the music exec and former QPR owner owns some of the land at the north east of the Twyford Avenue site and has tried and failed to get permission to build on it but the bulk of it belongs to Wasps FC.

Mark Evans ● 1208d

FR: "It seems unlikely that Crossan wouldn't have done due diligence on the American consortium."RC: True enough, but Due Diligance is not always a perfect process. And besides, Crossan may not have had any other choice (offers), meaning he may have had to just cross his fingers and hope for the best.FR: "The problem isn't the day to day operations of English rugby clubs, it is the debt that they built up during Covid."RC: How did eg French and Irish rugby union manage to cope with Covid, or rugby league? I mean, it's not as if HMG neglected to support English rugby union during the Pandemic; on the contrary, iirc the game did a lot better out of government largesse than a lot of other sports:https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-announces-major-package-of-financial-support-for-premiership-rugby-clubsIt seems to me that it wasn't Covid which caused professional rugby's fundamental lack of financial viability, rather as the straw which broke the camel's back, it merely exposed it.Indeed I'd say that pro-rugby in England is at the stage English professional football was by the end of the 1980's/early 1990's i.e. dying on its arse.But just as Football came up with a complete reset in the form of the Premier League, Rugby needs to do the same - maybe go down the full Franchise route, covering the whole of England/Scotland/Ireland/Wales perhaps?Either way, it really cannot go on dying "The Death of a Thousand Strikes against the Head" (as an old rugby mate would have put it).

Richard Cathcart ● 1208d

Wasps FC in Acton (behind Twyford CE High Scchool) was the original club formed in 1867, Their first XV split from them in 1996 when professional rugby was launched to become Wasps RFC of London, High Wycombe and latterly Coventry.Ironically, if they continue to exist at all, RFC will be palying in a regional league four tiers below the amateur Wasps FC!

N V Brooks ● 1208d

A dozen or so years ago London Scottish, followed by London Irish both fell victims to a charlatan group of investors from- guess where- America.London Irish should have been wary of promises of bail outs from a country where rugby, far from being a much loved sport as it is in New Zealand, and certainly not a potential money spinner as in football.Where is the Irish equivalent of Nigel Wray when you need him?

Denis I. Fox ● 1208d

Correction:  followed by London Welsh.

Denis I. Fox ● 1208d

Thank you for that. The idea that this consortium really only want LIRFC to get their hands on Sunbury for an NFL training ground is both interesting and worrying.I wonder is Shad Khan lurking in the background somewhere? As the billionaire owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars and Fulham Football Club, also All Elite Wrestling, he's long been thought to be sniffing around a London home for the Jaguars, since (I think) they are not a very profitable franchise out in Florida. It is certainly known that he tried to buy Wembley from the FA a while back, with many people imagining that a new home for The London Jaguars was behind his bid. And both Wembley and the new Tottenham Hotspur Stadium have proven very successful venues for NFL games since then.

Richard Cathcart ● 1208d

Two dreadful errors killed the WelshPaying underperforming professionals 'silly money' salaries. One player's salary equated to their total losses one season.Moving from Old Deer Park to the Kassem Stadium Oxford in the belief that moving to a bigger stadium would mean bigger crowds and more income. Simply looking at the countless football clubs to make that mistake should have rung alarm bells.

N V Brooks ● 1208d

The Mail's rugby correspondent is reporting that the RFU have granted another week for the American consortium to come up with some cash or Crossan to prove he can provide the necessary backing.Very interesting and credible posts from Richard and Mark on the NFL connection and the possible involvement of Shad Khan. The stakes are clearly very high at this stage.On the difference of the impact of Covid on French and Irish rugby (I can't comment on rugby leagues as I know nothing about it) many French teams enjoy substantial municipal support because the teams are seen as sources of regional pride. In Ireland you have larger crowds, guaranteed Heinekin Cup rugby and lower operating costs.It seems to be emerging that the notion that English rugby is financially unviable may have been overstated. Wasps had the rug pulled from under them by their main investor who wanted to get control of the Ricoh Stadium and a similar scenario seems to be developing here in which the admittedly weakened financial state of a club is being exploited by those seeking to gain control of valuable assets on the cheap.Not sure what the attraction could possibly be for the Irish and Scottish clubs in teaming up with the English as the URC is currently a much more exciting proposition than the Premiership. Maybe the Welsh might consider it as they are struggling in the URC and might fancy their chances more against the English teams that remain.

Francis Rowe ● 1208d

Wasn't the London Welsh move to Oxford forced by Premiership Rugby requirements for a stadium of a certain size and Old Deer Park didn't meet the requirements?  OK, it didn't have to be Oxford but ODP wasn't going to be allowed.I seem to remember at the time speaking to some London Welsh fans who thought the team should decline promotion as they thought the demands of Premiership rugby and the need to move grounds would threaten the club's existence, and so it proved to be,

Michael Robinson ● 1208d

"The Mail's rugby correspondent is reporting that the RFU have granted another week for the American consortium to come up with some cash or Crossan to prove he can provide the necessary backing."The BBC has it now, too, adding:"But it is understood another week will be allowed, as long as the current ownership can prove that the players' salaries are paid on Wednesday."https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65751962Meanwhile, regarding my suggestion about a new 4 nation "franchise" league, it may be total pie in the sky.However, Welsh rugby is in an even worse state than England's, while I don't think Scotalnd's is much better (if at all). And while Irish rugby has managed very well, it was lucky for them that they had a pre-existing 4-team Provincial set-up upon which to graft a professional set-up. That said, these four teams do take up a considerable slice of the IRFU's budget, which itself is actually very dependent on the international team.Meanwhile, the domestic club game beneath the 4 teams has withered badly throughout the island, partly because there isn't enough money to go around, partly because the step up from regular club rugby to the f-t professional Provincial sides is far too great.As for the URC, I'm really not sure how well this is going, but the fact they had to invite South African clubs to join cannot be a good sign.Whereas by combining all four home nations teams there should be enough teams (just) to form two divisions of 10, even 12 divisions, which would then provide enough decent teams for reasonable competition, while also allowing for Promotion & Relegation between the two divisions.This way, there shouldn't need to be any third tier beneath these (hence the "Franchise" element), unless or until other clubs had progressed sufficiently, both on and off the field, to expand the concept.On the other hand, I could be talking (rugby) balls lol.

Richard Cathcart ● 1208d

It was indeed, but there were far closer alternatives and I remember a groundshare at The Stoop neing spoken of while planning was sorted. Welsh though were already in dire straits financially woth losses racking up. Attendances averaged around 3000 IIRC whereas, again IIRC, three times that was needed to break even.

N V Brooks ● 1208d

The standard of play in club rugby was always going to decline once the provincial system was in place. Speaking to rugby people both north and south over the last decade they have highlighted the pre-eminence of schools as the main challenge to the club set up rather than the provinces. The elite rugby schools in Ireland offer training and facilities that no club can match. Blackrock always provided Leinster with most of their players but in Ulster and Munster the club system fed the youth talent that won Heineken cups. That has changed in the last 15 years with a larger proportion of the current provincial sides coming through schools rather than clubs. This has been a problem for English rugby for longer and has narrowed participation in the game. The Irish already have a very thin player base so maybe this indicates their current dominance will be short-lived.

Francis Rowe ● 1208d

Getting off topic... but while it seems obvious that Ireland would use the provinces as the professional teams, there was a lobby advocating that clubs such as Garryowen and Shannon could be professional.  This is covered in a book 'From There To Here' by Brendan Fanning that tells the story of the shambolic transition from amateur to professional rugby in Ireland.

Michael Robinson ● 1208d

The Irish player base has always been very small but participation can only be boosted by having successful club sides and a world number one ranked international team. I don't think we will see a decline anytime soon as the general standard of fitness and athleticism of Irish youngsters seems to be higher possibly because so many also play Gaelic sports. I've seen a number of youth teams play over here and the difference is very evident. If you look at the stats for Munster's stunning win in Cape Town on Saturday they claimed nearly every kick restart and won most aerial battles which has always been a feature of Irish sides with many of their players having been brought up on Gaelic football.Incidentally, I don't think many people would agree that the participation of the South African sides is a sign of weakness for that competition. The Premiership final was great entertainment but the quality of the teams in the URC final was a step above. This has broader implications for the English games because fewer South Africans will be tempted over here if their domestic game is strong particularly with the huge surplus of English players at the moment. Sale for instance wouldn't have been close to Sarries without their heavy Saffa contingent.What the RFU should be doing about this longer term is hard to say but in the short term they need to do all they can to save London Irish. A sale and leaseback of the Hazlewood facility might be the answer with an option for Irish to buy it back when they are financially stable. The RFU have the funds but the question is do they have the will to do what is necessary?

Mark Evans ● 1208d

Word is the players have been given their notice today.

Simon Hayes ● 1208d

This is probably a misleading and unhelpful rumour. You can't give notice so an employee you haven't been paying. The squad has been given clearance to talk to other clubs but won't be able to leave until their contracts have been breached by non-payment. If they haven't been paid for May they'll be allowed to leave at some point in the near future but if they have been paid they can't just walk away. If more time is being asked to complete the sale of the club then it is reasonable to assume that there is still a chance that it will go through.

Mark Evans ● 1208d

Salaries due tomorrow, so I guess we will see then.If the club is in severe financial difficulty and the owner won’t fund it any longer then it isn’t an very bright outlook. There are plenty of football clubs who have been in this scenario and not all of them have been rescued, and that’s in a sport with much broader public appeal and TV revenue.It’s not great for the players and other staff at the club, but the problems at Irish have been evident for a while now. Everyone can keep their fingers crossed for a positive outcome but if collapse can strike a club with the history and support of Wasps then nothing is guaranteed.

Simon Hayes ● 1208d

In what way were the problems of London Irish evident? They certainly were a surprise to me. Although Crossan indicated his willingness to sell back in September, a well constructed squad was performing well in front of good crowds.The problems appear to have arisen due to the protracted nature of the takeover negotiations which nobody was anticipating. All rugby clubs depend on benefactors to keep them going and Irish's position was not particularly desperate by the standards of the league. From what others have said on this thread it would appear that the situation is a lot more complex than it seems at first sight.The latest (according to Radio 4 this morning) is that the RFU's extension beyond today is conditional on staff being paid but that Crossan has offered to cover half the cost with the balance being paid on the completion of the takeover. Ball back in the RFU's court.

Francis Rowe ● 1207d

If full wages aren't being paid, isn't that still a breach for players/staff who aren't getting their contracted salary?Surely that means they would be entitled to look elsewhere if the club is telling them you'll only get the money owed to you at some undetermined date in the future.The RFU/Premiership may not be inclined to negotiate given the clock is ticking to finalise the competitions for next season and London Irish look far too risky to include.

Michael Robinson ● 1207d

I think the situation is that it isn't an immediate breach of contract if salaries are paid late or only in part so the players are still bound to their contracts for now.You are probably right about the RFU although this seems like short termism. It would be far more damaging to the game if London Irish go under particularly if this is an asset stripping exercise and the amateur club is lost as well compared to a bit of reorganisation being required for fixtures.The season starts with the pointless Premiership/Championship competition which a side could drop out of with no great consequence. That gives time to reshuffle the league fixtures.

Francis Rowe ● 1207d

Hmmm... I can't see how not paying someone their contracted salary on the date specified in the contract isn't ultimately a breach of contract unless the contract itself allows flexibility.There isn't a great deal of flexibility shuffling fixtures for clubs in ground shares as the football fixtures take precedence plus there are also the European competitions to be scheduled and for these clubs will be arranging transport/chartering flights.  Even for selling season tickets, fans may reasonably expect a reduced price if there are fewer home fixtures because of fewer teams in the league and clubs won't want to scramble trying to deal with this if a team collapses half way through the season.

Michael Robinson ● 1207d

If the club isn’t financially viable as a professional outfit then it’s not going to survive in the current economic climate. The fact that the present owner is reluctant to pay the wages, the secrecy surrounding the proposed purchasers and the general air of uncertainty doesn’t breed confidence.The club’s problems have been obvious for anyone who reads the rugby press. Even this website has reported on issues around it.What’s the average home attendance? Clearly not enough to make using the GTech worth it. Apart from a core fan base it struggles to attract casual supporters. Compare that with Brentford where every match is sold out in the Premier League. It’s been rugby’s perennial problem since the game went professional.The RFU might be quite happy to see the Premiership cut to 10. International fixtures dominate the season and clubs that are deprived of star players for lengthy periods might benefit from a rescheduling of match blocks.

Simon Hayes ● 1207d

FR: "In what way were the problems of London Irish evident?"RC: I think you kinda answered your own question when you went on to add: "All rugby clubs depend on benefactors to keep them going"I think we must assume that Mr.Crossan is now either unable, or unwilling, to go on  funding this (otherwise) loss-making entity.And while that may not have been immediately evident in their case, too many rugby clubs have been sailing too close to the wind, with some of them sinking to the bottom, to imagine that it could never happen LIRFC. (If nothing else, their inability regularly to fill a modestly-sized stadium near their traditional heartland, even with plentiful cheap or concessionary tickets etc, should have rung alarm bells, especially when you consider the size of Premiership rugby squads, and their need to pay rent to Brentford FC.)Meanwhile, even if they should survive this current crisis, and the prospective new owners are not just in it to asset-strip etc, how might LIRFC survive better in a 10 club division, with correspondingly fewer fixtures and the likelihood of no relegation meaning there will be even more somewhat meaningless, mid-low table games?Ultimately the question needs to be asked of the game's authorities of just how many more clubs need to go on struggling through (at best), or go bust (at worst), before it is realised that tweaks here and there are only delaying the inevitable, and that a complete reset is necessary?

Richard Cathcart ● 1207d

The contract law aspect of this was outlined in an article last month when the April payments were late. An employer being late with payment doesn't amount to a breach sufficiently serious to walk away from a contract - otherwise players would have taken other offers last month.Irish haven't sold season tickets for next season and I don't think other clubs make allowances for missed fixtures due to other teams going out of business.

Francis Rowe ● 1207d

I think there is a misunderstanding here of the economics of rugby in this country. Very few clubs operate on a cash flow positive basis and the situation is worse for those that don't own their own grounds.The sides are nearly all supported by benefactors who put money in with little expectation of a return and without whom the club's wouldn't survive.Mick Crossan fulfilled that role for many years for Irish and brought it through a successful transition away from Reading and back to London. Success wasn't defined by profitability but by the improved base the club had. Like all clubs Covid meant that a significant amount of debt had to be taken on. I don't know how much of Irish's debt is to Crossan but I'm guessing it is significant.He clearly no longer has the will or the means to support the club but even the financially stronger clubs such as Saracens and Leicester would be in difficulties if their sugar daddies walked away.Fiscal puritanism in this instance is just nonsense as the sport is always likely to be run in this way. Even with the money being pumped into clubs, English rugby is struggling to match the clout of French and Irish sides.It is also laughable to deem football as an example of good practice. While Brentford may be better run than most, the owner makes far more from property rather than football, a benefit that only really is available to teams based in the inflated housing market of west London. Elsewhere in the game examples of financial insanity abound.There is a danger in presenting this as some sort of moral deficiency which the club and the sport has brought on itself. The more I learn about this, the more it seems apparent that international investment funds are exploiting the situation with zero concern for what happens to rugby in this country. It is very wrong for people who claim to be rugby fans to be adopting an 'I told you so' attitude when they don't really have a proper grasp of what is occurring.

Francis Rowe ● 1207d

(From the Guardian)"London Irish have been told by the Rugby Football Union to pay their players and staff in full by the end of Wednesday [31st May]. If they fail to do so they will face suspension from the Premiership.Irish were clinging to the hope of a week’s extension to Tuesday’s deadline for either the proposed takeover to be completed or the owner Mick Crossan to guarantee funds for next season, but it remains to be seen if the RFU will grant the Exiles another seven days.The extension was dependent on Irish meeting May’s pay-roll in full as well as receiving key documentation from the proposed buyers. Crossan said he would meet the pay-roll wage bill of about £500,000, but it emerged on Tuesday night that the players and staff had then been implored to accept 50% with the rest to follow in due course.In what has been described to the Guardian as an ultimatum, it is believed players were encouraged to make a decision themselves rather than consult their representatives.https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/may/31/london-irish-ordered-pay-wages-in-full-by-end-of-day-or-face-suspension?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1685526827

Richard Cathcart ● 1207d

Amazing how aggressive you are becoming about all this. Clearly you are too close to the club to take an objective view.You say: ‘Itis also laughable to deem football as an example of good practice. While Brentford may be better run than most, the owner makes far more from property rather than football, a benefit that only really is available to teams based in the inflated housing market of west London. Elsewhere in the game examples of financial insanity abound.’The response to that is you are talking patent nonsense. The Premier League is the richest in the world, largely due to television revenue. Those richest clubs get wealthier still when the start playing regularly in Europe, through the UEFA co-efficient. To claim wealth is based on property is spurious.Yes, there are clubs that have been financial basket cases, Leeds United being the prime example, but rules are in place to try to ensure that doesn’t happen again, as Wolves have discovered recently. The Premier League hasn’t seen any clubs fold mid-season during its 30 year history. We’ve lost two Premiership rugby clubs already this season and a third on the brink.You say: ‘There is a danger in presenting this as some sort of moral deficiency which the club and the sport has brought on itself. The more I learn about this, the more it seems apparent that international investment funds are exploiting the situation with zero concern for what happens to rugby in this country. It is very wrong for people who claim to be rugby fans to be adopting an 'I told you so' attitude when they don't really have a proper grasp of what is occurring.’There’s no ‘told you so’. It’s actually a case of financial prudence and cutting one’s cloth accordingly. There’s a reason why Ealing Trailfinders haven’t been changing at the bit to be promoted. They wouldn’t survive.What’s funny is that you seem to think I’ve some sort of grudge against rugby. I don’t. I used to play it and occasionally go to games, but the Premiership isn’t particularly attractive to those who don’t know the sport or simply can’t grasp it. It’s hard to grow a base when even thisevwho understand the rules aren’t particularly excited by it.Finally, I have a very well placed rugby contact who has warned about this happening for months. It’s regrettable, and particularly unfortunate for those directly impacted, but it’s not surprising.

Simon Hayes ● 1207d

Professional club rugby needs a major overhaul. Clubs depend on wealthy owners being prepared to fund millions of pounds in losses every season. If an owner loses interest/runs out of money there is no back up plan. Clubs lose their star players to international games for 50% of the season, hardly a good model for getting bums on seats. The increase in salary cap, pushed through by the wealthier owners, is like turkeys voting for Christmas. The majority of fans in this country support the international team. How many at Twickenham watching England v France watch a club match the following weekend.  The TV deal is circa £4-4.5m per Club per year. A squad costs circa £7m at a minimum. On top of that are ground costs, backroom staff etc. With  promotion due to be taken away the Championship will wither. Championship clubs get less than £100k in central revenue. I have no idea what the answer is. Perhaps  the French model should be looked at as a starting point. Promotion is key to spectator interest, the second tier is televised and the second tier have an equal say on how the club game should be run. French clubs admittedly are helped by a far more significant TV deal and significantly lower ground costs. It should also be recognised that rugby is a minority sport in the UK. TheFrench have taken huge steps in making their game more diverse.

Robert Dawbarn ● 1207d

Was this 'well-placed rugby contact' the one who told you that the London Irish players had been given notice? Presumably he or she also informed you that Ealing Trailfinders weren't keen to be promoted despite getting lawyers on the RFU and threatening to turn Welsh to get into the URC?I had to laugh at you holding up the Premier League as the example for rugby to follow. Most of the clubs in that league benefit from exactly the same financial structure that London Irish and other rugby clubs have in which investment comes from an outside funding source (usually an oil-rich government) and not from internally generated resources. Of the top eight only Man Utd don't have this structure and that is because the owners inherited a debt free balance sheet and leveraged the club.When was the last time a club won the Premier League without a big money investor behind them?

Mark Evans ● 1207d

Is it not possible, given that costs are always likely to exceed revenues, that the system we have is the best we are going to get? The shortfall can only be made up by rich men with little common sense and a love for the sport and a particular club. Where else is the money going to come from? What needs reform maybe not the overall system but introducing a soft landing for club when it fails them.A very good point about the failure to make the sport diverse. I know some of the clubs in this part of the country do try very hard to reach out both at youth and minis level but get little support from the RFU. Some clubs on the other hand relish their exclusivity and are not interested in anyone who has not had existing coaching which will mean they will have had to have gone to a particular type of school.

Francis Rowe ● 1207d

FR: "Is it not possible, given that costs are always likely to exceed revenues, that the system we have is the best we are going to get? The shortfall can only be made up by rich men with little common sense and a love for the sport and a particular club. Where else is the money going to come from?"RC: That is hardly a "system", more a long drawn-out Last Will & Testament.For it is clear that well-meaning benefactors are becoming ever scarcer, as it becomes increasingly obvious to them that they will never get their money back; rather it's just a question of how much they sink into the game before they run out of money and/or motivation.As for your final question, the answer has to be "nowhere", meaning that the real question should be: "Where is the money going?".To which the answer must be out of the game (in player's wages primarily), at a rate which far exceeds the rate at which it is flowing in at the other end.To which conundrum the RFU's answer, when they cannot increase the game's revenues, and no-one will reduce the clubs' expenditure, seems to be to permit a reduction in the number of clubs which share existing revenues.Which in the short term may serve as a "holding strategy", but in the long term does nothing for the inherent financial problems which bedevil the game.(As for your observations on Diversity etc, I'm sure these are all entirely valid and welcome etc, but they still aren't relevant to f-t professional club rugby's problem at hand. Which is how to get more revenue into the game, whether from TV, sponsorship, attendances or some other source, to meet the outgoings which they seem unable or unwilling to reduce.)

Richard Cathcart ● 1207d

As mentioned, the big money is in the international game and in Ireland, the IRFU treat the provinces as 'loss leaders' to ensure supply of players for the national team which makes the big money.The IRFU want the provinces to ideally make money rather than subsidise them but they won't walk away from them like a sugar daddy investor might (they tried it with Connacht in the early 00s and it didn't end well for the IRFU..)So when Munster were behind paying off their new stadium, the IRFU stepped in financially with terms more advantageous than any bank would have offered.So in their annual report profit and loss statement, the IRFU have 'professional game costs' but they don't publish how these are allocated across the different professional teams.Theoretically one option could be for the RFU to take over some clubs on the similar principle as in Ireland that they need to invest and have some ownership of the tier below the international game and but I doubt this will happen.

Michael Robinson ● 1207d

Richard, which of the Premiership clubs is currently operating profitably and not dependent on a benefactor who is providing extra capital?You may not like the system but this is how it is and the best solution is surely to manage it more smoothly.

Francis Rowe ● 1207d

You make a lot of valid points.But as regards the French model, I think that much of their advantage is as follows. In terms of governance, France is rather more decentralised than England, with local/regional Mayors and Councils having greater powers and autonomy than their English counterparts. And many French Mayors see having a professional sports club in their city or town as being a source of civic pride which is to be encouraged (via municipal stadia, planning permission, financing etc), to put the place on the map.Moreover, it costs much less to support a professional rugby club than a football club hoping to compete at a European level. While French rugby clubs are also much less likely to be in competition with a nearby football club, since there are only 40 French f-t professional football clubs in a country of 68 million people. (By contrast England, with a population of 56 million, supports over 100 f-t professional football clubs.)And that's before you count other competing team field sports like cricket and hockey vying for peoples attention in England (unlike in France), plus of course Rugby League, which in England may be regionalised "Oop North", and mostly semi-pro, but it is still much more prominent than its French counterpart.All of which means English rugby clubs invariably find it so much harder to find a place in their respective sporting public's awareness than French clubs do.

Richard Cathcart ● 1207d

FR: "Which of the Premiership clubs is currently operating profitably and not dependent on a benefactor who is providing extra capital?"RC: Hardly any, I assume.But it is not a question of "liking" (or disliking) this system, not is there any desire from me to do down professional rugby. It's just that I cannot see any way of managing it, smoothly or otherwise, unless you count "managed decline" as a strategy.For from my somewhat detached viewpoint, it simply doesn't appear possible to make the present financial model work for any more than a bare handful of clubs.Which in turn is insufficient to support a full-time English professional league like the Premiership.Imo something drastic has to change, otherwise as each year comes and goes, the question will not be: "Which teams are going to challenge to win the league this season?", but rather "Which teams are still going to exist next season?"

Richard Cathcart ● 1207d

D’oh.I didn’t say the Premier League was the model to follow. I said it survives because there’s more money sloshing round in it. Yes, there are plenty of billionaires involved but they a) like the kudos the competition brings and b) hope to cash in eventually. It’s what Mike Ashley did in his mismanagement of Newcastle for all those years. You seem ignorant of the financial fair play rules that apply in football, which Wolves are currently struggling with. Regardless of a rich benefactor they are in trouble. It’s why Leicester went down this season and others in previous years. Brentford are okay because they have a sensible financial structure in place.The rules are being tightened again this summer, hence Chelsea spending millions on new players last season on seven year contracts to get round the new rules.Rugby union is a minority sport in England, like it or not. Unlike football the professional clubs can’t attract legions of overseas fans to buy merchandise or subscribe to club tv channels. London Irish can’t even rely on the Irish diaspora in the capital to keep afloat.And if you want to mock my contacts go ahead, but senior people in rugby administration probably know a bit more than you do. Trailfinders aren’t particularly keen to leave their base here, despite what you say. Perhaps they’ve seen what happens to clubs that do so.I’m guessing from your surname that you might be a Welshman.

Simon Hayes ● 1207d

Shame, going the same way as football.Rich foreign owners who eventually treat 'their'club as a plaything,like Abramovich did.

Keith Iddon ● 1207d

Chelsea was a useful tool for Abramovich, particularly in parking chunks of his dubiously obtained fortune in London.The real interest in the Premier League is coming from the USA now. These investors know there’s big money to be made if they get it right, although if they try to Americanise the English game they will get a bit of a shock with the response.The Rugby World Cup is scheduled to take place in the USA in 2031. I winder if it will make any impression on the wider population there.

Simon Hayes ● 1207d

So Irish get an extension until 4pm on June 6, despite paying only 50% of salaries. Luck clearly on their side for another week

Simon Hayes ● 1207d

Seems somehow appropriate given that if suspended or expelled there is unlikely to be a way back

N V Brooks ● 1207d

Reflecting on this the problem seems to be that the current structure consistently creates a cliff edge scenario because of the chronic negative cash flow of all clubs.When the beneficiaries that cover these shortfalls no longer wish to do so the next step is automatically a collapse.This serves nobody's interest as generally main creditors of these clubs put money in for the love of the game not for a financial return. That means conventional administration makes their investment doubly worthless.The RFU is not short of a few bob and therefore could easily step in a lender of last resort and alternative administrator for clubs. They could then meet with creditors and come up with agreements that are in the interests primarily of rugby. While this was happening they could cover payroll and oversee and orderly reduction in the squad size and transfer out of the most expensive players.There are plenty of players currently looking for work so it wouldn't be hard to assemble a team that may not be competing for honours but would be able to give other Premiership sides a decent game.Having stabilised the situation, prospective suitors would no longer be able to hold the club for ransom and the RFU could look to get some or all of the money it has had to disperse back as part of the takeover.

Francis Rowe ● 1206d

I think another factor in France is there are some regions/cities (like the south west) where rugby is unquestionably the number 1 sport but very few equivalents in England.I think the rugby teams in Exeter and Gloucester will bring in more people than the local football team but for places like Leicester, Manchester (Sale), Newcastle, it isn't even close...

Michael Robinson ● 1206d

It would be far closer in Leicester if Welford Road was bigger.Average attendance at Leicester City. c.32,000Average attendance at Leicester RFC c.22000 (highest in the Premiership)Even with this attandance Tigers have debts of over £30m (a pittance by comparison to many football clubs).

N V Brooks ● 1206d

I think the Rec in Bath is often packed out for rugby matches. But then, that city does not have a league football team.

Richard Greenhough ● 1206d

Packed out but Bath have debts totalling £37.8 million.

N V Brooks ● 1206d

Leicester Tigers also dependent on some wealthy individuals with the announcement below about £13million being put in by 2 people.https://www.leicestertigers.com/news/club-announcement-230215As you say, Tigers have the biggest support in Premiership rugby and they own their ground, so if they need wealthy individuals to survive, the prospects of a self-sustaining professional club looks unlikely.

Michael Robinson ● 1206d

Apart fro football, (some) tennis and golf professional sport is in a parlous state financially.

N V Brooks ● 1206d

The average debt for Premiership clubs is £4million. I suspect the RFU isn’t keen to guarantee that amount, particularly if clubs are acquired by asset strippers like those at Worcester. As others have said, there’s a dwindling band of benefactors willing to subsidise clubs at this level.There’s an old saying: ‘how do you make a small fortune? Start with a big one and buy a football club’. Seems to be applicable to rugby too.Rugby union’s problem in this country- and this was said elsewhere - is it’s a minority sport competing with football. Rugby league accepted Murdoch money and restructured itself, including switching to its season to reduce the clash with soccer, and is thriving. They also have significantly lower salary caps than union, so maybe the answer is to pay the players less. They may not like it but it’s better than no club and no job and the cycle of financial collapse.

Simon Hayes ● 1206d

Nobody is talking about the RFU guaranteeing loans. Wasn't it evident from what I said that I meant that creditors who had provided capital out of a love of the game would be persuaded to take a haircut or convert to equity?The point is that asset strippers whether it be for Sixways, the Ricoh Area or Hazelwood are given their opportunity because the administrators have a fiduciary responsibility to maximise what they can pay back creditors and none at all to rugby. I think salary caps aren't a great idea in so far as they are introduced to protect owners - maybe to ensure a competitive league but the clubs with the most resources will always get round them (you know who they are).Pay is going to fall anyway because of the glut of players because of the drop in the number of clubs but a lower salary cap will mean that the best English players will go overseas and the best overseas players will stay there. This will reduce the quality of the English national team and the competitiveness of the Premiership putting the game into a cycle of decline which may reduced revenues more than has been save by skimping on wages.

Francis Rowe ● 1206d

"..the Ricoh Area.."I assume that you mean the Coventry Building Society Arena ? IMHO Wasps should never have been allowed to take advantage of the poor ownership of Coventry City FC to sneak in and buy the ground in the first place. Coventry's own rugby club has an illustrious history from the days before professionalism cast its shadow over the union game.

Richard Greenhough ● 1206d

Wasps paid fair value for the Ricoh. CCFC owners moved out to try to force an administration and thereafter to pick it up for pennies in the pound.Back on track, HMRC have issued a winding up petition on LI, game over methinks. It’s pretty clear to me that the “purchasers” want to buy the LI brand without the debt. They won’t get the training ground on the cheap as Sport England presumably took a charge to secure the COVID funding. Horrible times for LI, their players and supporters.

Robert Dawbarn ● 1205d

Sad for the fans but horrible for employees and their dependents This has been coming for some time and HMRC don’t issue winding up orders on a whim.

Simon Hayes ● 1205d

The RFU have suspended them and they cannot play in any league next seasonhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65819546

N V Brooks ● 1201d

Now the stay of Execution has mercifully ended for the Irish the RFU should act quicly to ensure the Premiership remains a viable competition next season.Why not invite Ealing Trailfinders to the top table, a friendly club led by a fantastic chairman who, season after season top the Championship (close 2nd this year) only for their dreams of promotion to be constantly rebuked.It the RFU need to make up the missing three teams from this season, bring in Jersey Reds and Coventry, both well run clubs who have had outstanding seasons.

Denis I. Fox ● 1200d

Nice idea but all three clubs have grounds that don’t meet Premiership minis criteria. Jersey have no plans for a new ground (current capacity is about 4,000) and they don’t want to leave the island.Coventry and Ealing would have to relocate to bigger stadiums and the local alternatives for both clubs would likely be financially prohibitive.It’s not just about capacity but also things like media facilities.

Simon Hayes ● 1200d

I think there was talk of building a new stadium in Coventry to be shared between the city's football and rugby clubs, but presumably with the demise of Wasps and the return of the Sky Blues to the CBS Arena that is no longer a runner.

Richard Greenhough ● 1200d

Francis Rowe, a person who never said a word against the years of unnecessary society destroying lockdowns, continues to complain about one effect that affects his personal enjoyment..

Michael Brown ● 1200d

Cause & effect, Mikhail ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1200d

Of course, Irish and French rugby manage to get by financially these days. Must be because they never had any Covid or lockdown etc.Oh wait...

Richard Cathcart ● 1200d