Forum Topic

Bourne Place Cyclists beware!

Bourne Place is no longer 2-way.  Including to the mom who ushered her two cycling toddlers and followed on her own cycle this morning, into the path of my oncoming car.

Marie Power ● 1328d69 Comments

I thought it was always one way.  Maybe it was temporarily two way because of the cycle/road works.

Peter Evans ● 1328d

always one way (WEST TO EAST)

Julian Pavey ● 1328d

It was 2 way a few days ago ( I know because I drove 'the  wrong way' at the time) due to the roadworks that blocked off an exit to CHR. I thought it was back to normal though.

Andrew Jones ● 1328d

It should be two way for cycling permanently. Same for Devonshire Road.

Paul Campbell ● 1328d

"It should be two way for cycling permanently. Same for Devonshire Road."That would be one way to reduce the number of cyclists in Chiswick, although it might add further strain to the NHS.

Richard Greenhough ● 1328d

Impractical and dangerous to allow cyclists to travel against the traffic flow in such a narrow stretch of road, without a segregated lane.  But they've got one of those just a few yards away!Just because some unobservant/uncaring/guerilla cyclists occasionally come the wrong way down Devonshire Road doesn't make it right or safe. Knowing it's a one way road means it's safe for pedestrians to cross without looking the 'wrong' way because nothing will be coming from that direction, because to do so they must have passed through a No Entry sign, which they can't have done because it's illegal.  I don't like this insidious belief by some cyclists that, for them, the rules of the road are in some way optional.

Peter Evans ● 1328d

You wouldn't last long in the City if you think that contraflow cycle lanes are dangerous for pedestrians to cross roads. They are on just about every one way street and there are a great deal more pedestrians on those streets than there are on Devonshire Rd. In my observations there are many cyclists using Dev Rd the wrong way, especially on weekends during the day and that shows its desirability as a route to the High Road and the shops from the south.As for Bourne Place - v handy for skipping the lights at Dukes Av when heading south, not high volume for cars and their drivers should be driving slowly and carefully on that short stretch anyway. I know it's anathema to many forum regulars to read about making things easier and better for cyclists but so be it ....

Paul Campbell ● 1328d

It's just as well I was driving slowly and carefully this morning otherwise I could have taken out a mother and her two children.  I like the idea that we can all break the law when it makes life easier and better for us as individuals.  The temporary 2-way running in Bourne Place certainly made my life easier. But it's back to one-way now. So it's illegal to go the wrong way down this one-way street, even for cyclists.  And it's dangerous for us all when they do.

Marie Power ● 1327d

Similar issue with Prebend Gardens, have seen near misses with cyclists heading the wrong way up the one way section of the street rather surprising pedestrians crossing the road and vehicles heading south.

Michael Good ● 1327d

It had to happen one day but I agree with Paul, on the Bourne Place question at least. For a cyclist intending to head down Dukes Avenue the wait at the lights is interminable for those that don't ignore it. Under its present configuration two way for cyclists on Devonshire Road would be wrong and dangerous and just because lots of them are ignoring the rules doesn't make a difference. You don't have to sit outside one of the local cafes for long to see pedestrians nearly being knocked down by a cyclist going the wrong way.One solution might be to remove all access restrictions but cobble the section down to Glebe Street or Ingress Street. Two way cycling then might operate safely with pedestrian priority.

Francis Rowe ● 1327d

"So it's illegal to go the wrong way down this one-way street, even for cyclists."Yes that's why it should be made legal and clearly marked as such so that all drivers know to behave as well as you Marie.I'll campaign for it (and Dev Rd) and those who don't like it can campaign against it ....

Paul Campbell ● 1327d

Pedestrian priority when there are cyclists about? Ha ha ha! It’s not even April1 for a couple of months.If poor, beleaguered cyclists have to wait a few moments at traffic lights, so what? Pedestrians have to wait at crossings. Perhaps Campbell ought to understand that the world doesn’t revolve around him and his cycling obsession, although if he’s as reckless in his bike as he is with his opinions it won’t be OMG before he’s flattened by a lorry or bus.

Simon Hayes ● 1327d

Pedestrian priority works well where it is clearly signed for instance on the Thames River path. I walk and cycle there and incidents are very rare because, despite what you may think, people are generally very considerate.Cobbling the road would also send a visual signal to both drivers and cyclists to expect people to walk across it in front of them and therefore to reduce their speed significantly. This kind of arrangement works well all over the world.  It would also retain vehicular access for Glebe Estate residents and reduce pressure on the increasingly fraught junction at Dukes Avenue.

Francis Rowe ● 1327d

" two way for cyclists on Devonshire Road would be wrong and dangerous"Based upon what Francis?  I can list many streets with the same if not less road space that are two way for bikes and pedestrianised streets that permit cycling.The City of London and Lambeth have recently done systematic reviews of all one way streets in their boroughs with the view of making them two way for cycling.  This has been done using established objective criteria rather than knee jerk opposition and pearl-clutching which is the usual reaction on this web forum.

Michael Robinson ● 1327d

To all those advocating 2 way for bicycles on 1 way roads a genuine question - what about motorbikes as well?

Mark Talbot ● 1327d

Pedestrians should always look both ways before they cross - many roads are 2-way for bicycles and motor vehicles reverse often without either looking or seeing.

Philippa Bond ● 1327d

Michael, as I said, sit at one of the cafes like Tamp or Urban Pantry and observe for a while. You'll see the risks created by cyclists going the wrong way as pedestrians can't hear them and don't expect them.I'm not saying that two way operation for cyclists couldn't work here but there need to be more visual signals for everyone. If you pave the road in a way that makes it look like it is for walking rather than riding or driving then people will take possession of it and cyclists and drivers will be reminded of the way priority is supposed to work.

Francis Rowe ● 1327d

Meanwhile, if I see an illegal cyclist going the wrong way down Devonshire Road, I might find myself irresistibly drawn to blocking their way while I explain the present legal position and suggest, for their own safety, that they either retrace their route and go the correct way or dismount. Once upon a time a friendly policeman might have done that!

Peter Evans ● 1327d

Better not visit the City then Francis - you'll have conniptions!Compared to Devonshire Rd, a street like St Mary Axe is narrower, has far more pedestrian footfall, more motor traffic, a cycling on the footpath section with only painted bikes as an indicator, contra-flow for cycling and somehow, the world doesn't come to an end.I checked collision data for Devonshire Rd and going back 10 years, there isn't a single recorded casualty of any type along the street itself.  This is with the no entry restriction for cycling being widely ignored. That would suggest that the risks you refer to are considerably overstated.

Michael Robinson ● 1327d

I'm familiar with St Mary Axe and the contraflow works there because there is only parking an loading on one side. A marked contraflow cycle lane next to parked vehicles is a recipe for disaster.You will predictably say that the solution would be to remove parking on one side of Devonshire Road but, let's be practical here, the council isn't going to consider that.There is no inconsistency between there being no reported casualties on Devonshire Road and my observation that minor collisions are endemic. Although cyclists riding the wrong way are commonplace, they don't tend to do this at great speed and so any impacts are likely to be low. It is inconceivable to me that over the last ten years that some people haven't been hurt and the lack of reports is explicable by the injuries not being major or it not being worthwhile to report the incident because the cyclist had departed. People don't have to be physically injured for this to be a problem. Cyclists coming at people from the wrong direction can make this a stressful place to visit for the elderly, people with restricted vision or children.There are two solutions. Consistent enforcement of the rules which seems to me unlikely to happen or a reconfiguration of the road to recognise the way people use it including allowing two way cycling. Making it pedestrian priority with strong visible clues this has happened would benefit all users of the road and businesses in the area.

Francis Rowe ● 1327d

Can't say I've ever noticed cyclists going the wrong way on Dev Road being a particularly big issue but has it increased as a problem more recently?If I am approaching Chiswick from south of the A4 I used to use either Duke Road or Dukes Avenue as the mood took me but recently Dukes Avenue has been the better option because Duke Road is more congested and sometimes blocked at the top.If you are going north from the Glebe Estate area then Dukes Avenue isn't really an option so maybe more cyclists are using Devonshire Road as an alternative even though they are not suppose to.

Mark Evans ● 1327d

Why does there need to be a marked contraflow cycle lane?  Simply put an 'Except cyclists' sign under the No Entry and make it a 2 way street (ban left turns, except cycles from Prince of Wales Terrace and Glebe St as well)Cycling close to parked cars should be avoided, irrespective of the street.

Michael Robinson ● 1327d

'Why does there need to be a marked contraflow cycle lane?'The answer is probably that it is required by law in such circumstances although, as you point out, cyclists would be well advised to stay in the middle of the road.The existance of a marked contraflow lane would give an indication for pedestrians to expect bikes from both directions. The solution proposed by Francis would work better but that too may fall foul of regulations.If there is a problem being caused by Duke Road becoming unviable for cyclists then the issue needs to be addressed. For me, a legal cycle route up Duke Road turning off at Glebe Street before you hit the snafu at the High Road junction and then up Devonshire Road and across the High Road at Elliot Road would be a real boon. It would be interesting to hear how cyclists based in the Glebe Estate area are adapting their routes.

Mark Evans ● 1327d

From my observations, there's increased illegal northbound use of Devonshire Road by delivery bikes, many electrified, and L plated mopeds, the riders of which have scant knowledge of or respect for road signs. They're also heavier, faster, and less manoeuvrable than traditional cycles and so their illegal actions pose a greater danger. In addition there are e-scooters, most of which are illegal wherever they go. Meanwhile, there's an existing safe and legitimate north bound route which gives cycles protected access to CHR and across to TGT by way the new traffic light system specially installed for them.

Peter Evans ● 1327d

"Meanwhile, there's an existing safe and legitimate north bound route which gives cycles protected access to CHR"This is great to hear Peter. Where is it?

Paul Campbell ● 1327d

I was wondering that. A bottleneck of traffic often forms at the kink on Duke Road just before you get to Bourne Place making it effectively inaccessible on a bike. If you start from the Glebe Estate area the only legitimate alternative is Annandale Road which is far from ideal and often also blocked with queueing traffic. I'm not condoning the misuse of Devonshire Road particularly by powered vehicles but it is quite clear why this is happening.

Mark Evans ● 1327d

I'd suggest via Ingress and Annandale, though I appreciate the traffic lights could generate uncontrollable frustration among some cyclists, who might feel it's 'safer' to spot a gap in the main flow and plough onwards at will, ignoring any pedestrians, who should, of course, be on the alert for such illegal behaviour.

Peter Evans ● 1327d

It isn't really so much the traffic lights that are the issue at Annandale. It just takes one van or huge SUV in the narrow section of the road to make it impassable and, given the very short phase, you could be stuck there for sometime. It is also quite a detour for anyone intending to head west.

Mark Evans ● 1326d

It is also not protected as Peter had suggested. There is a reason it is not a route favoured by cyclists while Devonshire Road is. Cyclists prefer to travel against flow on Dev Rd because it feels safer than travelling with flow on Annandale.  I am pleased that this dialogue has established consensus that there is a need for an authorised and safe south to north route to CHR.

Paul Campbell ● 1326d

'Feeling safer' is not an excuse for ignoring the rules on Devonshire Road. Annandale is perfectly safe anyway - it is a short straight road - the problem is if it is blocked and it is likely to be when Duke Road is also obstructed.

Mark Evans ● 1326d

Neither you nor I are the arbiters of what different people find safer. We've established before that you do not consider the needs of the variety of different ages, abilities and types of bike that are out there on the roads. Diversity will grow with the cycle lane and more LTNs.People are voting with their pedals on which route they find safer and they will continue to do so whether you, Peter or anybody else likes it or not. Contravention of the rules will not be enforced on Devonshire Road. It isn't for motor vehicles driving through during restrictions either. Wanting to take the shortest route in a car or not observing the signs are also not excuses for ignoring the rules on Dev Rd. That's why I think two way cycling needs to be formalised and made into an official contraflow.

Paul Campbell ● 1326d

Not sure that Duke Rd is not a good option most of the time, it's our route of choice with the kids on bikes linking Chiswick House/Grove Park with CS9, seems to be a lot better since the restrictions at the N end stopped it being such a rat run. Cars drive pretty respectfully on there when they do come through.

John Hall ● 1326d

That's probably about right. It is usually fine for about 95% of the day just getting blocked at rush hour and Saturday afternoons. The problem may be that cyclists, having experienced problems there, may divert to Devonshire Road, because they can't be sure it will be clear as they travel north.

Mark Evans ● 1326d

Cyclists coming from south of the A4 near Hogarth roundabout (Chiswick Mall, Corney Reach etc.) are not going to use Duke Road to get to The Old Marketplace, TGT etc. They're going to use Devonshire Road.

Paul Campbell ● 1326d

It's subjective of course but I don't use that route because the underpass is more difficult to negotiate at Hogarth Roundabout and Dev Road is very narrow in the middle section with traffic going in both directions. I'd tend to take the A4 up to the Dukes Avenue underpass and straight up there with the option of using Bourne Place to turn onto Duke Road.Even if Dev Road was made two way at the northern end for cyclists, I'd probably still take this route in summer cutting through Chiswick House Gardens. I don't use Dev Road now southbound even though that would be legal and, as the crow flies, it is probably the shortest route.

Mark Evans ● 1326d

I wasn't referring to you Mark, although your personal route choices are of course and as ever interesting, but the many people who are actively choosing Devonshire Rd as their northbound route of choice. Some of these are in the know that the historical LTN filter at Bennett Street and then onto Devonshire St and Dale St is a very nice quiet route up to Dev Rd and beyond. LTNs and cycle lanes working together for accessible safe cycling in Chiswick.

Paul Campbell ● 1326d

"..but the many people who are actively choosing Devonshire Rd as their northbound route of choice.." are breaking the law! And that's OK then?! So just give me that handbag, I like the look of it! Or that bicycle, I like the look of that even more! And what's wrong with climbing through that window to take that money? And what if I did punch someone in the face, they were standing in my way!

Peter Evans ● 1325d

I'm not telling them to do it Peter so there is little point in shooting the messenger. Just as I expect you are not telling people to drive their cars through during restricted times. I also don't expect that at least most of the people driving through are committing more serious crimes such as burglary or assault. That seems like a strange extrapolation to me.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

People who don't think one law applies to them may feel the same way about other laws.

Richard Greenhough ● 1325d

They may but I very much doubt that many of the drivers breaking the law routinely around Chiswick every day are burglars or violent criminals. It would be quite a crime epidemic if they were. Same goes for people cycling northbound on Dev Rd. It is very in tune with the spirit of this forum to imagine the opposite though.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

True, but I doubt it's the majority - whether it's cyclists driving the wrong way along a one way street, or drivers exceeding speed limits.

Andrew Jones ● 1325d

I think there might be some association between intentional minor law breaking and more serious crimes, as police often find that a speeding car driver or one that dodges through a red light is up to no good in other ways, or carrying something they shouldn't. I guess it's an attitude of mind, and there's no reason why it shouldn't be the same with cyclists.  So be careful what you have in your saddle bag when you nip the wrong way down Devonshire Road!

Peter Evans ● 1325d

Don’t forget that the true cycling nutjobs on here think the police should be devoting their time and resources to catching bicycle thieves because that crime, apparently, funds international criminal organisations!

Simon Hayes ● 1325d

Speaking as someone who does regularly cycle south on Dukes Avenue (at least when it is a little warmer), I would never cycle the wrong way along Bourne Place, it is obviously safer to use the dedicated cycle way on CHR and turn left onto Dukes Ave.In principle there is no reason why the car parking spaces on Bourne Place could not be removed to allow a contra cycle way but why should LBH spend the money to do so when there is a dedicated safe route a matter of 5-10 yards further north.No doubt you also applaud the cyclists who ignore the no entry signs and cycle the wrong way down the one way street that is Town Hall Ave.

Justin Stephenson ● 1325d

"In principle there is no reason why the car parking spaces on Bourne Place could not be removed to allow a contra cycle way" I am glad you agree. "No doubt you also applaud the cyclists who ignore the no entry signs and cycle the wrong way down the one way street that is Town Hall Ave"Another great example of where there should be a contraflow cycle lane. Thank you.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

Peter 86% of drivers speed in 20mph zones. How many of them do you suspect of being involved in more serious crimes?

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

What a muppet.

Simon Hayes ● 1325d

Paul, thanks for the route tip. It's an interesting one and I can see how if you were with a very unconfident cyclist how they might feel safer using this way. Statistically there is a vanishingly small chance of being involved in a collision on a straight road like Dukes Avenue or Devonshire Road even if there is more traffic. Your route introduces lots of junctions including some nasty looking blind turnings. The overwhelming proportion of collisions involving cyclists occur at junctions so you should be looking to reduce them on the routes you choose.

Mark Evans ● 1325d

"nasty looking blind turnings"lol. I'm starting to doubt that you do cycle. You've certainly not cycled with small children on Dukes Avenue.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

Why do you doubt it? It's been a while but I used to cycle down Dukes Avenue with my children on a regular basis with absolutely no problem. I can see the argument for initially, when they are gaining confidence taking them on roads where there will be less traffic but all the available evidence suggests that cycling along a straight road presents a vanishingly small risk whereas this rises significantly if you are at a junction. As you will know from cycling around Chiswick, even on the quietest of roads, the chances of a badly parked delivery van on a corner obscuring sightlines are high.

Mark Evans ● 1325d

Mark, there is a difference between actual risk and perception of risk.Yes, the statistics show collisions are more likely at junctions but a car close-passing or revving or beeping their horn on a straight road is more likely to put someone off cycling or to choose another route than collision statistics.

Michael Robinson ● 1325d

Don't dispute that at all which is why I think it is fine to use these quieter back roads to build confidence which is exactly what I did with my kids. However, the ultimate aim must be, if cycling regularly to do it in the safest way possible which in this case is cycling straight along a straight road. We did it for years without any significant problem along Dukes Avenue and I still use that route myself regularly. It's a brilliant way to get the Chiswick House Gardens and the river.

Mark Evans ● 1325d

It's kind of Vincent Stops thinking: no need for protected cycle lanes on main roads because there few collisions. Children should cycle on the A4 because there are no collisions between motor vehicles and bikes there. Except even Vincent Stops thinks LTNs are good and understands that cycling in and around the resulting quiet roads is good and safe and better than cycling on high traffic roads like Dukes Avenue.Anyway, as always there is no need to take my word for any of this. The cyclists on Devonshire Rd are voting for their chosen route with their pedals.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

"The cyclists on Devonshire Rd are voting for their chosen route with their pedals."I wonder if the local police are following this thread ? If so, then they may feel it worthwhile to set up a trap on Devonshire Road.

Richard Greenhough ● 1325d

"If so, then they may feel it worthwhile"I doubt it. Occasionally police do run operations for a couple of hours to fine cyclists for running red lights but that is usually just performative to get a few local gammons and a Councillor off their backs for a while. They go back to illegally parking and idling their engines to get coffees or Maccie Ds pretty quickly afterwards.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

I often see Cllr Todd cycling through the No Entry and 'wrong way' along Devonshire Rd so it would be kind of amusing if he got nicked for doing so given he used to be a copper himself.

Michael Robinson ● 1325d

The issue with Dukes Avenue is that is a a rat-run between CHR and the A4.  A 2019 traffic survey showed 90% of vehicles entering Dukes Ave from CHR were driving straight through so any cyclists in their way may not be treated very well.

Michael Robinson ● 1325d

Another great example of where there should be a contraflow cycle lane. Thank youDon't think so unless you like the idea at been flattened by an E3.

Brian Green ● 1325d

Blimey you don't have much respect for professional drivers. All over the City and Westminster drivers of various vehicles manage not to flatten cyclists in contraflow cycle lanes so the E3 bus drivers should be able to keep out of them too.

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

With the kids, I would have mainly been travelling along it at the weekend so, although there was some traffic, it was not unduly busy.When I drive on it during the week, the experience of drivers is no worse or better than any other road in that they are generally quite considerate. On the rare occasion some impatient idiot honks at me I take that as the universal signal to slow down a bit.I'm surprised about the figure of 90% driving straight through. In my experience the southern end is relatively quiet and most cars on the road don't exit or enter via the A4. There is undoubtedly an element of driving through to Wavendon and Barrowgate to queue jump on Sutton Court Road.

Mark Evans ● 1325d

I wouldn't cycle on it if it was a contraflow its too narrow unless they get rid of the parking spaces.

Brian Green ● 1325d

"unless they get rid of the parking spaces."Ta da!

Paul Campbell ● 1325d

The survey was done in 2019 using cameras on all roads bounding CHR, Sutton Court Rd, A4 and west side of Devonshire Rd so registrations could be tracked if they were driving through, or journeys started or finished in the area.Between 7am to 7pm, 1067 vehicles entering from CHR at Dukes Ave left the area at the A4 compared to 461 leaving at Barrowgate and 94 leaving at Wavendon and 26 leaving at Alwyn.The figure of 90% is for all vehicles driving through, not just Dukes Ave to the A4.As the cameras recorded timestamps, 25% of vehicles going between CHR and the A4 took less than 47 seconds to travel the length of Dukes Ave and 75% took less than 63 seconds; those times represent approximate average speeds of 25mph and 19mph.

Michael Robinson ● 1325d

So you want all parking in one way streets removed so you can cycle in a contraflow lane. Can't see that happening.I've seen these contraflow lanes in Southall without the parking removed and it doesn't give much room I avoid them when I'm on my bike.

Brian Green ● 1324d

Get a grip people, there's a war raging on our doorstep and a cost-of-living crisis.

Julian Pavey ● 1324d

I'm not that fussed. Plenty of other more important priorities for reprioritisation of road space. Just never say never ...

Paul Campbell ● 1324d

"..they get rid of the parking spaces"Are these residents' bays or for more general parking ? If the former, I can't imagine those living in the road would be very happy with those lobbying to remove their spaces.

Richard Greenhough ● 1324d

The numbers are interesting but don't really chime with my experience. When I come out of the underpass the southern section of the road tends to be quiet but it progressively gets busier moving north with traffic turning in and out of side roads. Maybe traffic patterns have changed for some reason or may be the times I tend to cycle there are atypical.As for speeding, this never seemed to me to be a particular problem because the narrowness of the road at certain points creates pinch points which slows people down but, if the road was less busy then I suppose speeds would rise.

Mark Evans ● 1324d

Another road I am guessing Paul has never been past or chooses to ignore obvious facts about its layout.  Bus drivers are extremely professional but if you look at the CHR end of Town Hall Avenue, the E3 bus needs almost the entire width to turn into it from CHR (so no room for a cycle lane) and I have seen, rather too many times, the turn in being thwarted by some idiot in a car parking close to the corner where parking is not allowed.  Then there is the other end of Town Hall avenue which is only just a bit wider than the E3 bus, so again no room for a cycle lane.As presently laid out even with all car parking removed (not going to happen because it is used by film crews using the Town Hall so a nice earner for LBH) there is no room for a cycle lane on Town Hall Avenue.  To make room not only would the car parking need to be removed but also part of the pavement at either end which would unsafe for the elderly, disabled, partially sited and those with kids in prams - and depending on what the laws on are on minimum widths of pavements might be illegal.There is a completely legal route along Heathfield Terrace to CHR, it means cyclists have to cycle at most 200 yards more and wait at a traffic light or if that is too much the cyclists could get off their bikes and walk down the pavement alongside Town Hall Ave to CHR and then remount.  Why is that not acceptable?

Justin Stephenson ● 1324d