Forum Topic

PSPO Proposals for H&F parks

Hammersmith and Fulham are proposing a 3 year Public Space Protection Order for all parks including Ravenscourt Park and Wendell Park.It would impose restrictions on where dogs are allowed (including playgrounds but also cafés), add an on the spot fine for dog fouling and give enforcement officers the ability to impose an on-lead order for out of control dogs as well as limiting the number of dogs that can be walked at any one time.There is a consultation here:https://haveyoursay.lbhf.gov.uk/responsible-dog-ownership

Charlotte Kasner ● 1395d64 Comments

That's the out of control dogs sorted out - now what about the out of control cyclists ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1395d

The experience in Ealing where civil enforcement officers have been allowed to issue fines for littering is that they often go for soft targets. The danger with rules like this is that they will be applied to little old ladies walking their pugs but shaven headed men with lots of muscles and tattoos walking agressive dogs will continue to behave as they always have.

Anita Blake ● 1395d

Congratulations on turning another thread round to cycling with the very first reply, but 5 1/2 hours later?I'm afraid I can only award a 6/10 on the ChiswickW4 Trolling Scale.

Richard Cathcart ● 1395d

Don't you understand irony ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1395d

A move in the right direction.  Given the over population of dogs in London it would not be possible to follow the example of other UK councils and ban dogs from public parks but this is a positive step.  A better position would be a simple all dogs on leads approach. Two citizen science projects have been running in Ealing. The first by members of two nature groups have been quantifying the low numbers of ground feeding birds — redwings, thrushes etc in Ealing Parks.  Out of control dogs have a direct impact on this. The second have been volunteer counts of dog owners not picking up dog waste.  The percentage is around 68 % so that is almost 7 out of 10 dog owners leave waste in our public parks. Both projects will lead to a submission to Ealing Council with the hope they will follow or go further than the H&F implementation.

Julie Canterbury ● 1395d

RG: "Don't you understand irony?"RC: Well you clearly don't, since it was Sarcasm!Oh and btw, it would still have counted as Sarcasm if you'd stopped after: "That's the out of control dogs sorted out".But like one of Pavlov's dogs, you couldnt help yourself.And THAT'S Irony!

Richard Cathcart ● 1395d

Most dogs are NOT out of control so it is a ridiculous suggestion and dog owners should be able to enjoy a walk with their dog off lead in parks. Why do we always go to extremes example. Dogs give many people a new lease of life and companionship so it essential that parks respect dog owners in London. Not everyone can afford to drive miles to let their dog enjoy a run around and some doggies socialising.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1395d

Off lead exercise is vital for dogs - and yes, without handlers  having to worry about getting hit by cyclists on the grass and paths on green spaces would be wonderful, but not the point of the PSPO (alas).However, there are also problems with many owners who have poor handling skills (little effective recall and no ability to judge their dog's demeanour, always assuming that they are paying attention to them and not yacking on a telephone or listening to a podcast). Commercial dog walkers sometimes walk more dogs than permitted and/or gather in groups creating large numbers of over-aroused dogs over which they have limited control. Many many dogs come from backgrounds of poor breeding practices and no socialisation during the vital first 10 weeks of life (socialisation is nothing to do with  meeting other dogs; it is about fitting neonates for the environment in which they will be living). Some have a genetic or epigenetic predisposition for being poorly suited to urban living and this has been exacerbated by lockdown.The PSPO at least raises the potential that some of this can be curbed which will only benefit canine welfare.

Charlotte Kasner ● 1393d

Have just completed the survey.  There is no overpopulation of dogs in London - only, sadly, in the rescue centres and pounds.  Another attempt by sad people who hate dogs to make it as difficult as possible to own one.  This must be fought.

Claire Moran ● 1393d

The mayor can, protected by his heavies of course

Peter King ● 1393d

I thought dog walkers were meeting up for walks together because of all the dog thefts and think it a good idea, safer in numbers

Janice Evans ● 1392d

Julie, have never had a dog that is interested in birds at all, foxes mightbe.

Janice Evans ● 1392d

"irony - nounthe expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."

Richard Greenhough ● 1392d

There are very few bad dogs (aggressive) through breeding it’s all down to the owners. We walk our dog in parks and rarely come across an out of control dog, yes playful with other dogs. Our dog has excellent recall even when playing with other dogs and selective hearing 😂😂😂 utter madness if London parks ban dogs off lead. What is this country becoming a totalitarian state at this rate, unbelievable we are even considering this just shocking

Jayne Thorburn ● 1392d

I’m  a dog Walker and have yet to meet an out of control dog and I don’t know any dog walkers who would walk without bags on them. This really relies on the wardens knowing about dogs!As for dogs being kept on leads I think that is the cruelest thing ever suggested. I’ve currently got my dog with an injury and he is confined to lead walks (2 months so far)  he is genuinely depressed and full of energy. To think he would have to be in this situation permanently breaks my heart. He’s a whippet and was born to run!

Lisa Anne Delorie ● 1392d

I don't believe anyone behind this approach "hates dogs"   I feel it is more about loving everything else :) Regarding the comment about foxes rather than dogs bothering ground feeding birds this would be unlikely.  Foxes are nocturnal feeders when the birds are roosting.  There is a lovely gentlemen in Ealing who has been tracking birds species across our local parks, canal and rivers for the best part of fifteen years.  His analysis makes for sad reading and he has no hesitation in apportioning part of the blame on dogs in parks.  He has numerous videos of feeding flocks been repeatedly chased by unleashed dogs. This is not an attack. It is a moment to pause and consider the welfare of others.

Julie Canterbury ● 1392d

Julie you are having a laugh I have never seen a dog actually even get close to a bird. It is extremely cruel to use this as an argument for leading up dogs in parks, is this WOKE or what. Dogs need to run our dog also got a paw injury due to some badly behaved humans smashing glass bottles and we didn’t see it in time. He also got very depressed being on lead for 6 weeks. We are fortunate we can afford to drive to open parks like Richmond, Wimbledon etc. but many people are not so fortunate. It appears some people on this forum has zero regard for others and their pleasure or even lifeline that a dog provides. We seem to be heading in the direction of a few strange folk who wish to dictate to the rest of society, grow up and let people live their lives in peace the word is balance and tolerance

Jayne Thorburn ● 1392d

Sorry Richard C - I don't think that was irony either!

Ed Saper ● 1392d

I would be wary of citing any definition which applies an apostrophe to a personal possessive - if you get m'y meaning.Still, congratulations for not bringing cycling back into the debate. Or perhaps you just didn't hear the bell?

Richard Cathcart ● 1392d

RGs opening remark appearing to praise the new anti-dog proposals was clearly sarcastic.While his then proceeding to bring cycling into a dog thread was (for him) a typically Pavlovian reaction. Which considering Pavlov conducted his experiments on dogs, was richly ironic.The distinction between the two is nicely explained here:https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/vs/irony-vs-sarcasm-types-and-differences.html

Richard Cathcart ● 1392d

Hello Jayne, I am aware that you, along with Claire above, are among the posters on this forum who are often rude and abusive. I would ask you both to avoid phrases like "sad people" and "strange folk" I think there probably is an discussion to be had about whether keeping dogs in a city is kind and humane. I would also offer the following list as the "strange folk" in Ealing who are supportive of the citizen science project looking at dogs in Ealing parks — parents with children who want to be able to play in parks without dog mess, schools who want their pupils to play sports in parks without dog mess and nature societies concerned about the increasingly mono-culture. The Councillors who are supporting this project will no doubt be met with others who agree with your position and there will be hopefully a rational debate hopefully without abuse and name-calling to decide the matter.

Julie Canterbury ● 1392d

How much of the blame does he apportion to cats out of interest? Any idea?

Andrew Jones ● 1392d

I am not rude, I honestly believe that for anyone to even think about banning dogs off lead in London parks would be a crime about humanity. Dogs give many people huge amount of pleasure and a lifeline particularly the older generation, dogs provide companionship, improve mental health and active lives as dogs have to be walked. We are becoming a sterile nation if the benefit of dogs who provide enormous benefit to thousands of people are banned from off lead walking. So I say again it is strange folk who wish to cause so much pain for others. We rarely come across dog ‘mess’ and I totally agree that a few irresponsible dog owners need to clean up their act but to punish 99% of decent dog owners who do pick up their doggie mess is just outrageous. Many families have dogs with young children who provide great great pleasure we can all live alongside each other. Anyone that thinks we can’t in my view is strange. You will be caging cats next they probably do more damage when ti comes to birds than dogs what next…..get a life and allow others to do the same.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1392d

"Or perhaps you just didn't hear the bell?"Sadly, Quasimodo has been silent since the fire.

Richard Greenhough ● 1392d

I find parts of dead pigeons all the time we have about 5 foxes living in the back lane, so it would be foxes they need to feed.

Janice Evans ● 1392d

CM: "There is no overpopulation of dogs in London"RC: I don't think anyone is saying London is "overpopulated" with dogs (or "underpopulated" or "just right populated" for that matter).Nor should these proposed measures in themselves automatically lead to fewer dogs in the capital.Rather they are a recognition that some dogs, whatever the  percentage of dogs overall, are owned by people who cannot or will not provide a suitable home for their pets with adequate care for their welfare, never mind that of those other people (and dogs) who come into contact with them - in this case in public parks. And seeing as how lockdown led to an increase in dog owning by new owners, it is not unreasonable to conclude that the absolute number of dogs owned by problem owners has also increased.That being the case, unless you think that there should be no restrictions on dog-owning whatever, which I doubt, then the question must be whether these proposals will improve the problems they are meant to address, exacerbate them, or simply make no difference.Either way, it is unfair, indeed unhelpful, to react as though it is a straightforward attack on all dog owners, designed to reduce the population of dogs in London.Nor is it helpful to muddy the waters by introducing eg unscrupulous dog breeders or overcrowded rescue centres into the debate, since although related, these matters are nonetheless essentially separate from the particular situation these proposals are designed to address.

Richard Cathcart ● 1392d

Always kept my dogs on leads in parks and we would drive somewhere else to let them have a run around, I think it should be the owners choice.

Janice Evans ● 1392d

Saying ‘ get a life’ is rude.

Stewart Jones ● 1392d

Completely agree! It would be nothing but inflicted cruelty. My dog is going stir crazy not being able to be free with his friends.  Neither of us are coping!

Lisa Anne Delorie ● 1392d

I think you’ll find that if people have dangerous dogs or people who neglect their dog or people who can’t control  their dog are mostly reported by onlookers or neighbours. I don’t see the need for the council to make money out of people by sending out over zealous enforcement officers. The public don’t tend to let dog issues go by.

Lisa Anne Delorie ● 1392d

In your view not mine. I think we should ban all badly behaved children from parks unless on lead 😂😂😂😂 there are plenty……people who picnic and leave their rubbish behind and that is plentiful, it is totally ridiculous I can’t believe with such important challenges we face that don’t need listing the tax payer is funding stupid discussions about dogs on lead in parks, we really have lost the plot…

Jayne Thorburn ● 1392d

You certainly have lost the plot. And as you don’t think it’s rude….get a life.

Stewart Jones ● 1392d

"I can’t believe with such important challenges we face that don’t need listing the tax payer is funding stupid discussions about dogs on lead in parks, we really have lost the plot"The follow up to that is indeed possibly "get a life""get a life, you are expressing frustration with them because their life seems boring or they seem to care too much about unimportant things"So not sure how its rude in context.

Julian Pavey ● 1392d

Dismissing other the lives of others is not expressing frustration - it’s passive aggressive.

Stewart Jones ● 1392d

Thank you Julian you completely understood what I was saying, why do some people always seem to twist what is being said 🤔🤔🤔 frustrated to say the least I will contact the RSPCA because banning dogs off lead in parks is cruel. I get if people don’t or haven’t had a dog they have no understanding of animal welfare. I honestly can not believe with so many real pressing issues we face right now people want to even think about cruelty to dogs. As Clare pointed out the rescue centres are full of animals that due to cost of living crisis people can’t afford to look after anymore. Then we have people who wish to create even more issues and cruelty. Dogs are man’s best friend and anyone who has a dog will agree. Many parks already have areas fenced off for young children to play so there is absolutely no justification for even talking about this subject, waste of time and money. Let’s discuss how we can help those in need locally with food & energy that’s a subject worth discussing.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1391d

Whatever the issue being discussed telling people to get a life or to grow up is rude. That’s my point .

Stewart Jones ● 1391d

Let’s agree to disagree Julian explained the definition perfectly in the context of the discussion, it is incredibly frustrating how some people twist  a comment to suit their own narrative. The discussion is a serious matter and yes we have had dogs for many years so are massive animal lovers, to think that people are even suggesting a policy which is cruelty to dogs is beyond my comprehension. Fear not if this is actually really being considered I will ensure that I get every  vet, animal charity, dog loving celebrity, national press involved this is a cause I am passionate about to stop others being so cruel. I thought the UK was a caring, compassionate, animal loving society clearly things are changing and it really upsets me. So bring on the fight and I will name & shame anyone involved in this policy and ensure it doesn’t happen.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1391d

It is evident that you feel very strongly about this consultation. Nothing wrong with that but you do run the risk of putting people off when you are rude to people who have expressed a different view (and then claim not to be rude)

Stewart Jones ● 1391d

And for what it’s worth Jayne, I think the proposals in the consultation are a bit excessive.

Stewart Jones ● 1391d

Cruelty to animals is unforgivable and nothing I say could possibly be rude

Jayne Thorburn ● 1391d

Oh, dear, Richard, as usual you haven’t read the whole thread before you blunder in.  These are the exact words of Julie Canterbury in her post above.  I look forward to your apology. And you have totally missed the point of my post, as usual.

Claire Moran ● 1391d

Never seen a dog catch a bird. None of mine have ever got near and I have lived with dogs from being seven years old. Cats, yes, lots of times.

Claire Moran ● 1391d

Never seen a dog catch a bird. None of mine have ever got near and I have lived with dogs from being seven years old. Cats, yes, lots of times.

Claire Moran ● 1391d

Your words are libelous, Julie. Personally I find anyone who wants to be cruel to dogs and to their owners, who want the freedom to enjoy the simple pleasure of walking their dogs and see them fulful their natural joy of running free, and the majority of whom are responsible, and indeed anyone who wants to restrict the freedom of others to enjoy their lives while harming no one, abusive.  That includes you, Julie.

Claire Moran ● 1391d

CM: "These [were] the exact words of Julie Canterbury in her post above.  I look forward to your apology."RC: Fair enough, I hadn't read the earlier post, so if you want an apology, then here is one. Sorry. Isn't it a good job that I didn't actually disagree with your point (about London not being overpopulated with dogs etc).But while we're on the subject of apologies, any chance you are ever going to apologise for the rather more serious charge of branding me a Misogynist, merely because I had the temerity to express a different opinion, in temperate terms, to that of another poster who happened to be female.I brought it to your attention three or four times, but you've notably failed even to acknowledge it, never mind respond.Or does exposing your own double standards count as "misogyny" too?

Richard Cathcart ● 1391d

So you put dogs off the lead of which there are many bought during lockdown who have not been trained in front of children  and other park users!  What I understood Charlotte to have said was that out of control dogs and misbehaving dogs might have to be kept on a lead in the parks.  Perhaps that will encourage dog owners to make sure that their dogs are trained and do behave.  Do the consultation!

Philippa Bond ● 1391d

You obviously haven't looked at the survey, Philippa. Look at it please and try again.

Claire Moran ● 1390d

I find it staggering that people try so hard to demonise the dog and their owners/walkers. We are in the parks every single day, rain, storms, wind, heat and snow. Most others use the park 8-10 weeks of the year. Us walkers notice that because of the amount of litter left (dogs try to get to the rubbish) broken glass is a huge problem in the summer lots of cut paws. I also find it really strange when I hear about out of control dogs. As I’ve said, im in all the parks 3/4 times a day, I see dogs playing, chasing balls/ frisbees and most people with children always want to say hello. I always take time to talk to the children and ask them if they’d like to stroke a dog or give a treat or even throw the ball. It makes their day and I always tell them to ask owners before touching a dog. Where has live and let live gone? So many people furiously cross over nothing!

Lisa Anne Delorie ● 1390d

It's important for wellbeing of people an pets, there was a time I thoughtall dogs should be on leads in public areas, but after lockdown whenwe were shut away they should now have some freedom or it willeventually come to breaking point when you see what's going on in otherCountries.

Janice Evans ● 1390d

Totally agree, Lisa, spot on.

Claire Moran ● 1389d

Also agree with Lisa…..

Jayne Thorburn ● 1389d

Earlier in this thread, you took offence at my inadvertently attributing a point to you, rather than to another poster. And despite the point in no way disparaging you, or even contradicting you, you demanded an apology, which I gave.Yet despite your continuing to be active on this thread at all times of the day and night, you have obstinately declined to address an issue which Ive been trying to raise with you both on this thread and others.Namely, that you previously made a nasty, baseless and personal accusation of misogyny against me, without ever backing it up, or apologising.Your continued, persistent silence reveals that when it comes to it, there is a nasty, hypocritical streak in you, which portrays you in a very bad light.Perhaps you should employ a PR Agency, to create a more favourable image for you? As I understand it, not every such organisation is terribly ethical and so will make something up should they have nothing else to work with.

Richard Cathcart ● 1389d

Thanks Stewart I don’t believe I was rude, it’s all about context….I am genuinely concerned anyone would think it is OK to ask everyone to walk dog on lead in London parks. There are thousands of people who have no garden or tiny outdoor space so the parks are a vital source for them to exercise their dog. It would be cruel to never allow a dog to run around. The majority of dogs in parks are well behaved and people pick up their mess so for people to target everyone is utterly outrageous. As someone pointed out in the winter very few people use the parks and in summer people picnic and walk away leaving their rubbish I find this totally unacceptable. So let’s not target dogs let them have fun and healthy exercise. The only people who would even think about this policy is non dog owners or non dog lovers. Fortunately the majority of people in the UK are dog lovers 🐶🐶🐶🐶

Jayne Thorburn ● 1389d

You are like a dog with a bone, gnawing away. Perhaps you should be put on a short leash before being let out.

Richard Greenhough ● 1389d

Actually I had let the matter drop weeks ago, until the other day Ms.Moran had the brass neck to demand an apology from me for an unintended slip which was not in the least perjorative.But even after I obliged her with this, she point-blank refused even to acknowledge, never mind rebut or apologise for, her much greater offence, i.e. when she had called me a "woman-hater", for no other reason than that I had expressed a contrary opinion, in moderate terms, to another poster who happened to be female.I think that says a lot more about her than it does about me, thankfully.Meanwhile, just as originally she was intervening in something which was nothing to do with her, I note that you are now intevening, on her behalf, in something which has nothing to do with you.Well-matched, eh?

Richard Cathcart ● 1389d

You're a sad, obsessive person, Cathcart. Look on the bright side of life for a change.

Claire Moran ● 1389d

Hmmm. I dont see the word "apology" in there.You know, the same as you demanded from me for some imagined sleight, and was granted.Now what's that word I'm searching for?Oh yes, its "hypocrite".

Richard Cathcart ● 1389d

There are thousands of abandoned pets.Parks aren't just there for exercising dogs and I think some of you seem rather obsessed by them to the exclusion of other users of parks who don't need to be constant users.There are places where dogs should not be allowed and places where they should be on a leash.  They should always be under the control of their owner or dog walker.And everyone should not only be picking up after their dog but doing a lot more  for their welfare.  Yet still I understand more than 50% don't even bother to do that.It is particularly gross when you have to clear it off playing fields before children play football, rounders etc. And yes, I do put humans first in that case, and don't apologise for that.I would never condone the smashed glass in parks either or the litter especially when people just get up and walk away from their picnic.  I still think if you can carry your food and drink to the park you can take the remains away with you and most parks have some sort of bin if absolutely necessary. Animals and birds can become very adept at opening bins and removing and spreading around the contents.Roll on a Deposit Return Scheme.  The UK I believe is still waiting Scotland's lead with theirs and that has been delayed because of the pandemic.https://depositreturnscheme.zerowastescotland.org.uk/And it is true that there is a big problem with pets disturbing ground nesting birds.    

Philippa Bond ● 1388d

Ground nesting is from March to July.

Janice Evans ● 1388d

Wrong info as always Philippa, but while we're on the subject of what parks should be used for.  Are all parks surrounded by roads? the first thing I would ban for the sake of everyone else, walkers, children, dogs is the cyclist. There seems confusion in that I believe they are banned in some places, lets get these things uniform and take away the confusion.  Similarly with everything, parking times in CPZs,  bus lanes.  A  countrywide scheme with times we can all get our heads round would be preferable.  My CPZ is all day while neighbouring roads, 2 hours a day, why?

Maggie Dodge ● 1388d

But what about cars Maggie? Surely it's barking mad cars are banned from parks, how can you not support the rights of motorists to drive wherever they please after all you've sacrificed for the cause?

John Hall ● 1388d

"..the first thing I would ban for the sake of everyone else, ....is the cyclist."You're a bit slow to pick this one up, Maggie - I suggested something along those lines (admittedly in jest) at the top of this thread and was duly attacked for it by Mr Holier-than-thou Cathcart.

Richard Greenhough ● 1388d

4/10 on the CTS.Slipping.

Richard Cathcart ● 1388d

Thank you Philippa; yes, the PSPO provides the capability to oblige owners to put out of control dogs on leads and to levy on the spot fines for not picking up faeces as well as creating some dog-free areas.It does not create a situation where dogs are not allowed off-lead anywhere and, frankly, until there are sufficient resources to enforce it, it is highly likely that people will carry on breaking the various laws (there are more than 50 on the statute book) that apply to dogs, as many owners are now.

Charlotte Kasner ● 1379d