Forum Topic

Rob Newman on LTNs

Some of you may remember The Mary Whitehouse Experience and the finely tuned comedic talent of Rob Newman.And we all know that opponents of LTNs are ready-made for poking fun at with their earnest sincerity about the chaos that will ensue if we slightly deprioritise cars. I've certainly enjoyed it for the past four years. Now listen to a master do it properly. It's quite lovely really. I like the song and the "incarceration" (why didn't I think of it) lyric and the "it's the disabled I worry about" reaction to Caesar's implementation of stone bollards in Rome.Stuart Kerr this is mainly for you and a tribute to a much-missed (from the forum not the mortal coil) satirist of the highest order and a fine writer who sees the comedy as clearly as Rob.https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001dxg0

Paul Campbell ● 1411d56 Comments

Just listening, and I looked into the Roman ban on vehicles. This is a really prescient article from 1960 that describes the ban, which was for most of the day in Rome, and its effects. The conclusion is superb and echoes from Roman times via 1960's America to London today:"The convenience and prerogatives of the greater portion of our citizenry are involved, yet one wonders if perhaps they, like the citizens of ancient Rome, should surrender the right of driving in the business and commercial sections of our cities. Even with the declining effectiveness of Roman traffic bans, it was unthinkable that anyone should drive through the forum which comprised the heart of a Roman city. Have the ancient Romans offered us a solution which may well be applied to our situation today?"https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-embattled-driver-in-ancient-rome/

Tom Pike ● 1411d

Fanatics, ideologues, and absolutists are humanity’s greatest scourge. Whether they’re the leaders or the followers, fanatics are people who indulge in a heady, intoxicating, and toxic concoction of self-affirming, know-it-all confidence that they have unique access to absolute truths, truths so perfect that they have to impose them on everyone.

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

It’s an established fact that cyclists don’t have a sense of humour, even though they often like to dress up in funny clothes and do silly things.

Simon Hayes ● 1410d

I’ve said many times they have no sense of humour. Nothing to recommend them at all really

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

Actually, Simon and Maggie, that’s quite funny considering you have both claimed not to be anti cycling. Humour often reveals a deeper truth and in this case it’s simply that both of you don’t like people who cycle.

Tom Pike ● 1410d

Sorry to disappoint.  My daughters both cycle. We’ve discussed recently getting me a bike to see if I could still do it. I’d need a definite type with no cross bar so can’t practice on theirs. Haven’t cycled since Center Parks 20 years ago. It will not be used except in their neck of the woods, where there are no cycle lanes. To go out with them and the grandchildren.  May not happen 🤷‍♀️It’s just the bullies that I dislike. If you see me with cyclists on the road , you’d  know just how wrong you are. It’s only the law breakers that frustrate me and the ones who want to decide when I should and shouldn’t drive.

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

No amount of cycle lanes or LTNs are going to work until cyclists understand that a red light means STOP and doesn’t mean carrying on regardless before yelling at car drivers for nearly knocking them off their bikes. Similarly when pedestrians have a green light this does not mean the cyclist can ignore it and weave through people crossing the road.It’s also not going to work unless car drivers stop blocking the cycle lanes when pulling out from side roads into Chiswick High Road in order to avoid the LTNs and then wondering why the cyclists are yelling at them for trying to get past.

Chris Blackwell ● 1410d

MD: "Fanatics, ideologues, and absolutists are humanity’s greatest scourge. Whether they’re the leaders or the followers, fanatics are people who indulge in a heady, intoxicating, and toxic concoction of self-affirming, know-it-all confidence that they have unique access to absolute truths, truths so perfect that they have to impose them on everyone."RC: If you're going to write your autobiography, you probably need to choose a snappier title than that.HTH

Richard Cathcart ● 1410d

I must say, Maggie Dodge is doing a great job as an ambassador and the public face of OneChiswick.

Michael Robinson ● 1410d

'..blocking the cycle lanes when pulling out from side roads into Chiswick High Road... and then wondering why the cyclists are yelling at them..' In heavy traffic, cars emerging from side roads often need to ease into the main flow, even 'blocking' it for a while.. Most drivers accept this as part of the civilised give and take of urban motoring. They certainly don't yell at each other, so why cyclists feel the need to do so can perhaps only be explained by others.

Peter Evans ● 1410d

PE: "Most drivers accept this as part of the civilised give and take of urban motoring.They certainly don't yell at each other"RC: Haven't you heard of 'Road Rage'? Or drivers honking their horns? Flicking 'V'signs? And yes, shouting at other drivers or road users?And as for "[easing] into the main flow, even 'blocking' it for a while", have you never witnessesd gridlock caused by even one driver who has needlessly 'eased into the flow' such that he/she cannot go forwards or backwards, while no-one else can get past in either direction.You might try eg turning left at the traffic lights on Horn Lane onto Acton High Street westbound someday to see examples of such "easing".Which is not to say that all motorists are impatient and all cyclists are patient etc - if nothing else, many people are both and don't suddenly change character depending on their particular mode of travel.Therefore to suggest that yelling at others is the preserve of just cyclists is silly.

Richard Cathcart ● 1410d

Easing out of the many side roads along the CHR was one of many reasons why people campaigned to say it was totally unsuitable for the cycle lane. You can’t have it all residents have to move about and cyclists just have to wait if that happens. I have eased out of a side road when there were zero cyclists in sight and whilst waiting to join the traffic a cyclist at high speed comes belting along, tough they can wait 😂😂😂😂😂

Jayne Thorburn ● 1410d

"Most drivers accept this as part of the civilised give and take of urban motoring.....They certainly don't yell at each other"A lot of drivers are aggressive towards other drivers and other road users and "road rage" is thought to affect up to 2/3 of UK drivers at some point, resulting in circa 30 deaths per year / 1800 injuries per year.If the suggestion is that cyclists are aggressive and drivers are saints, then that's obviously bunkum.  Even if it were true, aggressive, risk taking and inconsiderate drivers are killers.  You're not going to die from being yelled at.

Ed Saper ● 1410d

Exactly Jayne, it’s the wrong location , they were told. but the cycle lobby wouldn’t take no for an answer. Anyone know how many millions are being spent on the new works, went past on the bus today, it’s major! WillThis be the answer?

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

I think the 20mph has made it a lot more civilised where cars are concerned although there are unfortunately still a number of motorists, cyclists and others who are completely self-centred.

Philippa Bond ● 1410d

Nice try Pike but you are really proving yourself a ‘stupid boy’ with such utterances. Most of my friends cycle. The difference between them and you is that they are normal, rational people, not swivel eyed cycle loons.Your idea about Roman LTNs is hilarious. What else of their empire would you like to see brought back? Crucifixion and slavery perhaps?Perhaps you ought to spend less time online.

Simon Hayes ● 1410d

How about this:Remove the cycle lanes.Reinstate the bus lane.Spend the cycle lane money on more buses.Shared use bus lane between buses / cyclists but NO CARS!Set the speed limit for ALL vehicles on the High Road to 15mph.If all the traffic moved at 15mph there would be no need for a cycle lane, especially if bikes and buses were sharing the bus lane. No parking in the bus lane. No cars allowed in bus lane. In a stroke you would have free flowing buses and traffic not being held up by buses at a (ridiculous) bus island. Also a 15mph is no big deal, that's what most traffic moves at anyway.

Chris Blackwell ● 1410d

If you could have bus lanes in both directions along CHR it'd be a winner!

Andrew Jones ● 1410d

Chris, here are a couple of photos of Chiswick High Road from 2019 and I don't see any bus lanes in them. When you say "reinstate the bus lane", how can you reinstate bus lanes that didn't exist? .

Michael Robinson ● 1410d

At a glance that sounds like a plan. Shame a king’s  ransomhas already been wasted when a worker able solution was available Chris

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

You could "reinstate" the bus lanes that never existed by restricting cars to permit holders and access only on CHR. Then the buses could travel freely on the roads and their drivers will be happy to have cyclists separated from them in the rather excellent new cycle lane that we are getting in the central section now.

Paul Campbell ● 1410d

It's chicken feed Maggie. As you head out of London on the M4 to your weekend anti-cyclist retreat do marvel at where the cones have recently been removed on the £900 million, 30 mile, smart motorway upgrade 

John Hall ● 1410d

Why do they keep spending more money on roads and tinkering with them? Why can't they get them right in the first place. They're just making it obvious that the roads don't work and should be ripped out. But the car lobby has infiltrated the Councils and the government and insists on spending taxpayer money on failed road schemes that nobody wants. How long has this been going on? Trillions of people are ranting about it on Twitter. When will the madness end? Why can't they just admit they got it wrong and put back the fields and forests.

Paul Campbell ● 1410d

Sounds like you’ve really lost the plot now. Perhaps your winter hibernation should start now.Most sensible people don’t like the smart motorways. They are another transport initiative that wasn’t needed and was badly planned and poorly implemented. They may well have to rip many of them out in due course because they are dangerous. That’s nothing to do with the driving and everything to do with not having the right technology to operate them.

Simon Hayes ● 1410d

Smart motorways. Another case of “we can’t admit they’re a stupid idea after allThe money we’ve spent. But they’re dangerous shhhhh

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

And what's one of the reasons why 'they' put Smart Motorways in?To increase road capacity for motorists!

Andrew Jones ● 1410d

I don’t know ANYONE who asked for it or wants it. So I’d  rather my journey takes longer thank you. Talking of which Merton Council have just put the speed limit back up to 30 mph apparently

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

Yes sorry, you can't re-instate a bus lane that wasn't there in the first place! What I meant was replace the cycle lane with a bus lane, one either side of the High Road (should fit) and have the bus lane shared between buses and cyclists, increase the number of buses (preferably electric) then set a speed limit of 15mph. That makes perfect sense to me but then perfect sense is not something either this Govt or this Council is renowned for.I am not anti-cycling (far from it) but I do genuinely find this current cycle lane dangerous.

Chris Blackwell ● 1410d

Bless you Maggie, you're all at sea aren't you.

John Hall ● 1410d

You’re quite a serious cyclists aren’t you Chris?

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

No, I think the traffic policy is all at sea John. And don’t you think it needs addressing?

Russell Pearson ● 1410d

I’m delighted to see that some decisions can be reversed  when they don’t work.  Obviously there’s an honest and unbiased Council in charge.  Very refreshing

Maggie Dodge ● 1410d

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/hammersmith-council-air-pollution-trial-fines-shortcuts-b1037305.html?fbclid=IwAR3IlSKFHaQjumNQfsx44Ox69G3AFamu5_6wxhi3goJiv3f_dSjJDImjClg

Hans Lund-Sorensen ● 1409d

Agree with Chris.

Janice Evans ● 1409d

https://www.merton.gov.uk/streets-parking-transport/traffic-management/20mph-zones-and-limitsMerton haven't put all their speed limits up to 30mph.  Wasn't that a bit that isn't residential and was previously 40mph?Hopefully lots of the 20mph will continue - it makes it a lot safer which includes making it easier entering and exiting roads.

Philippa Bond ● 1409d

Those cameras really aren’t going in for that reason at all. It’s infrastructure being put in place for the road pricing that TfL want to bring in as soon as it can.

Simon Hayes ● 1409d

LTNs. Council has signed off plan for every ward in the Borough to be a LTN. No more driving through residential roads in Hammersmith and Fulham.The furious outrage will only really get going in Chiswick when these are rolled out in Brackenbury first and then Ravenscourt and fines land on the doormats of bewildered Onesies. But the ire of Chiswick-based motorists will be like a cool spring breeze compared to the searing desert wind of drivers from Kensington ....

Paul Campbell ● 1409d

The important thing is that they make changes, they see that  they don't all work and make change somethings back.  That's called looking, listening and learning. To be admired.  Keep googling Philippa see what else you can find.

Maggie Dodge ● 1409d

You really are a pompous twerp. Why don’t you do the works a favour and lie down on the M4 to ‘stop the traffic’.

Simon Hayes ● 1409d

'Council has signed off plan for every ward in the Borough to be a LTN. No more driving through residential roads in Hammersmith and Fulham.'Please provide link to details of this plan, as all I can find is reference to a scheme in Fulham.

Peter Evans ● 1409d

That’s a great description- but he’d need to get out his armchair and drive his car round to do that.

Russell Pearson ● 1409d

Certainly Peter. With great pleasure. Warning it is delightful reading for pompous twerps who love safer healthier streets and aggressive cravat-wearing drivers' tears but contains a lot of triggers for High Traffic Neighbourhood lovers. Brackenbury scheduled to go in before end of this year. Ravenscourt June 23 to July 24. You can see the full schedule by Ward in Appendix 1. I have referenced this several times before but everybody has got too distracted by the Old Marketplace to notice something much more important is happening. Enjoy:http://democracy.lbhf.gov.uk/documents/s121666/Final%20Cabinet%20Report%20-%20Clean%20Air%20Neighbourhoods.pdf

Paul Campbell ● 1409d

Campbell, when you get your terminal disease and can’t cycle or even walk anywhere you won’t be quite so smug. Nobody will shed a tear for you. Why are your such a horrible individual?

Simon Hayes ● 1409d

Maggie:  Why are you misrepresenting the situation?  I'd already read it and went back to check what it said. Why do you think that Councils keep asking you what you think?  It's so that they can find out what problems anybody has and decide whether the scheme needs tweaking.

Philippa Bond ● 1409d

I've read that paper, though it's missing Appendix 2 which has the maps of the affected areas. I also note that the timescale for implementation includes periods of consultation, so it's by no means happening overnight. 'The Clean Air Neighbourhoods will be introduced as a series of experimental projects, implemented by way of Experimental Traffic Orders, so as to ensure public engagement takes place during the experimental phase of the project'  ..it says.I note that these are flagged as Clean Air Neighbourhoods and not Low Traffic Neighbourhoods (LTNs) though it's not clear what the difference is. They do appear similar, with universal access by permit, with some arrangement for visitors and deliveries, but with some routes into the areas remaining open for all. They appear to have all kinds of supporting evidence about air pollution in residential streets, though I'd have thought anything approaching a stiff breeze would spread any pollution fairly equally across the region.

Peter Evans ● 1409d

Yes they call them CANs instead of LTNs to confuse the reactionary conservatives. It hans't worked and it won't work but we will have safer healthier streets anyway. Yes they use the same process of experimental orders and simultaneous and ongoing consultations we are all accustomed to now.  And the consultations will not be a referendum like in Ealing. They will be an opportunity for everybody to suggest improvements to the scheme and that opportunity will be wasted by the reactionary conservatives who will try to use it to voice a majority opposition, which will never be the case and is irrelevant anyway. But they do like to be predictable. In their cravats. Yes through-traffic will be corralled onto main roads like it is in Homefields Ward, Chiswick. And yes people will still be able to drive to any address just as they can in any LTN in the country regardless of how prominent their shuffling off of the mortal coil might be or how mobile they are. And yes this will still be very challenging for Simon, Russell, Maggie and all the other local High traffic Neighbourhood fans to deal with. Ah well. Nevermind. I think we'll all cope.

Paul Campbell ● 1409d

Edit: "how proximate their shuffling off of the mortal coil might be"

Paul Campbell ● 1409d

Yours isn’t near enough.

Simon Hayes ● 1409d

The best thing about this forum is that it seems to keep the ghastliness people in Chiswick occupied. They might be wishing each other dead because they don’t like people using bicycles, but as long as it means I’m don’t to bump into them out and about it’s fine by me. Tap away horrors. Happy weekend all.

Edward Seaton ● 1408d

The only reason cyclists may not bump into innocent pedestrians on the pavements of Chiswick is because the pedestrians are alert and manage to jump out of the way. This is changing because pedestrians are starting to hold ‘their ground’ and you will see many more accidents and hospitalisations as the cyclists become more and more arrogant and self righteous as they loose the battle of wits with pedestrians and motorists.

Steve Taylor ● 1408d

“During a period of data collection EnfieldCouncil admitted to under-counting of vehicles travelling under 10kmph,it also confirmed the council failed to pass on this information to the air quality consultants which meant air quality”assessment is invalid.

Maggie Dodge ● 1408d

I think you'll find that it will be Central Government who will be bringing in road pricing.

David Burke ● 1408d

A judge addressed this in the recently published Judicial Review into the introduction of the Enfield LTNs. He dismissed it alongside all of the other claims.You can choose to ignore the judgement, and urge people to spend more money on futile legal proceedings, or consider what was written in the judgement:1. A consultation is not a headcount;2. It is perfectly legitimate for councillors to be members of pressure groups;3. That a council's responsibility is not simply to give primacy to the "expeditious, convenient and safe movement of traffic", but balance that against other interests;4. That while there is almost always more data that could be collected, what is required is a reasonable sufficiency of information to justify the rationality of the decision.Clearly the judge did not recognise the evidence of "deception on a grand scale" you allege: he dismissed all the grounds made in the claim against the introduction of the Enfield LTNs.https://caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ewhc/admin/2022/2809

Tom Pike ● 1408d

“South London council called 'failure' for doubling petrol vans despite declaring 'climate emergency'.”  Lambeth Council I believe Hypocrites every where you look

Maggie Dodge ● 1408d

Maggie you need to further research the meaning of the word 'hypocrite'.  I think you are misinterpreting it.  It doesn't necessarily mean Saints -v- Devils.

Philippa Bond ● 1408d

It is the odious hypocrisy of those who drive cars but criticise others for doing the same I find extremely distasteful. Never mind, they have to live with themselves; we only have to live with their smug hypocrisy.

N V Brooks ● 1408d