Forum Topic

Council first to issue 20mph speeding fines

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/london-council-wandsworth-20mph-speed-fines-b1034060.htmlWandsworth is the first Council in Uk to have the power to issue speeding fines for 20mph roads. They will be trialing this on Priory Lane, scene of memorable conflicts between cyclists and motorists on their way to and from Richmond Park.Assuming the trial is a success (which it will be because the ECL says so) and these powers are extended to other Councils, which roads in Chiswick and the surrounding area would the forum like to see having 20mph limits enforced with fines? Sutton Court Road goes without saying of course.

Paul Campbell ● 1431d73 Comments

The Avenue and Bath Road etc would be good. Plus a crackdown on red light jumping by cyclists as this should be about better road manners by all in areas that are unenforced at the moment. 

John Hall ● 1431d

I take it you will recieve a Section 172 Notice to fill in details of the person driving the vehicle at the time of speeding. That i think is the law for speeding tickets by camera You have the right to plead not guilty and attend court. The details are sketchy in the ES Speeding tickets start at £100

Julian Pavey ● 1431d

https://www.gov.uk/speeding-penalties

Julian Pavey ● 1431d

The Avenue: 43% vehicles driving above the speed limitSouth Parade west: 36%South Parade east: 31%Turnham Green Terrace: 25%These are taken from Tracsis data collected in April last year: https://www.ealing.gov.uk/info/201176/cycling/2915/fishers_lane_closure_to_motor_traffic_except_buses

Tom Pike ● 1430d

There's no point in having these ultra-low speed limits unless they're enforced. I live on a 20 MPH road and compliance varies enormously.

Susan Kelly ● 1430d

20 mph limits have pushed down speeds, though. Even on The Avenue, only 2% of drivers were over 30 mph, though five were over 40 mph. On the standard enforcement of 24 mph (110% posed + 2 mph), 14% would be fined.

Tom Pike ● 1430d

I find it hard to believe that traffic in Turnham Green Terrace can get anywhere near 20mph except maybe in the middle of the night. There's some logic in having 20mph limits on residential side roads, which are more likely to be respected, but not the blanket virtue-signalling schemes imposed arbitrarily across every road in some boroughs. And if the traffic exceeding 20mph in The Avenue was going at less than 30, then that's quite an achievement. But why not 15mph, which would be even safer, or why not no cars at all, which I guess is some campaigners' objective.

Peter Evans ● 1430d

I think 20mph is too low on some roads.  Lonsdale road in Barnes is 20mph but towards Hammersmith bridge there are no parked cars,  very few pedestrians, no side roads from the left,  why oh why is it 20.  Then. Some roads which are 20,  have a full road of parked cars,  nearly single file and pedestrians that I understand. I don’t understand the  reasoning to make some 20.

Nik Solomon ● 1430d

Nope, speeding is being enforced using the Traffic Management Act which is existing legislation specific to London councils and they have created a new enforcement code for speeding.  Fines will be £130 reduced to £65 for payment in less than 14 days.  It won't add points to the driver's license.This is really a trial by Wandsworth for a new contravention under existing legislation. I wouldn't be surprised if there are legal challenges to fines but if these are rejected, then expect to see this rolled out by other London boroughs.

Michael Robinson ● 1430d

Has the speed of motor vehicles decreased on Thames Road making it safer to cross to and from the riverside since the changes?

Philippa Bond ● 1430d

Paul "Assuming the trial is a success (which it will be because the ECL says so) and these powers are extended to other Councils, which roads in Chiswick and the surrounding area would the forum like to see having 20mph limits enforced with fines? Sutton Court Road goes without saying of course."Sutton Court Road!! North of the A4 the current speed is closer to 20 hours per mile than 20 mph, but even once the roadworks are complete it is unlikely that speeding is a major problem because it wasn't a problem before the roadworks - Barrowgate Road has had in the past a bigger speeding problem.  South of the A4 there have been problems in the past so worth looking at better enforcement

Justin Stephenson ● 1430d

At least 10% of drivers are breaking the speed limit on Turnham Green Terrace at any hour of the day!But implying the real objective of any speed reduction measure is a blanket ban on cars is a little silly. You have mentioned your concerns over cyclists' behaviour - does that mean you want to ban all bikes?

Tom Pike ● 1430d

AAaaaaaaaagghh!!!!! Sutton Court Rd youre lucky to get up to 10mph. It's a shame we dont live in a society where common sense prevails. Most back streets feel like a 20mph and less. Bath rd, The Avenue, Bollo Lane north of the level crossings and most bus routes feel like a 30mph or give us a break 25mph. A blanket 20mph does my head in. Lucky I dont own a car any more

Stephen Gould ● 1430d

SG: " A blanket 20mph does my head in."If you're on a very congested road like eg SCR, and only crawling along at 5mph, does it really matter whether the speed limit is 20 mpoh, 30 mph or 70 mph?Why get wound up by that, instead of all the other drivers making non-essential journeys who are slowing you up?In truth, a 20 mph limit is only a problem on roads where the traffic flows freely, very few of which are in W4.But yeah, blame speed limits for traffic congestion.Or the Council.Or the Evil Cycling Lobby.Baphomet?

Richard Cathcart ● 1430d

On the continent I have seen 20kph speed limits in villages and near schools. There are no problems. I have seen a new Citroen electric car with a top speed of 30mph. Is this the future?

Nicholas Beard ● 1430d

Driving slow can be as dangerous as driving fast, if everyone stayed withinthe speed limit we wouldn't have these ideas/changes that make things worse.

Janice Evans ● 1430d

Wellesley Rd is used as racing track most days.

Basil Finnis ● 1429d

I passed for cars within a 40 minute journey with no lights on after dark,what's the matter with them.

Janice Evans ● 1429d

Electronic dashboards where they are lit irrespective of the sidelights/headlights being on. Sadly, too many drivers depend on the car to do things for them rather than their own common sense.  At least they will normally have running lights on the front.

N V Brooks ● 1429d

I thinks most pedestrians would prefer to be hit by a car doing 20mph than 40mph.

Nicholas Beard ● 1429d

No lights at all, if that is the reason it's not very safe same as people not looking when reversing and relying on bleeps, they are also supposed tolook.

Janice Evans ● 1429d

Yes Basil Wellesley is ridiculous. Good shout.I could be faux dense like another contributor here on this thread and say "Wellesley! You having a laugh mate. It's dead quiet west of Oxford North because of the LTN". But instead I will just acknowledge how right you are about the part of the road that is used as a "racing track" as you so aptly put it. I'd suggest emailing the Transport department at Hounslow to recommend some traffic studies on Wellesley while they are watching the Wandsworth 20mph trials to fine drivers.

Paul Campbell ● 1429d

Average speed in Chiswick must be 10 mph...Whats the fuss

Freddy Sims ● 1429d

Spot on Fredy, the car and cycle nut jobs on this forum just love trying outdo each other with pointless answers and threads.

Brian Green ● 1429d

No one gets run over at the average speed do they? That's the point. 

John Hall ● 1429d

Seven-day average speed on The Avenue is 20 mph. On Turnham Green Terrace it’s 18 mph. That’s a full week’s worth of data taken in April and May last year. 

Tom Pike ● 1429d

How is this correct?  I was fined doing 26 mph on the Embankment at 6am in June via camera.  How are Wandsworth going to be first?

Will Carpmael ● 1428d

Presume that was a fine enforced by TfL. Wandsworth will be the first council to fine drivers dirrectly allegedly although I thought that Hounslow were already doing this with the speed camera on Ealing Road, Brentford.

N V Brooks ● 1428d

You were fined by the Met rather than a council.  Wandsworth will be the first local authority to start issuing fines. I'd start by saying I am a huge supporter of the 20mph speed limit on local roads. It has made a significant difference on roads such as The Avenue, Southfield Road and South Parade for instance. If I am crossing and a car is speeding I make no attempt to hurry out of their way but make it clear to the driver there is a limit. If I am cycling I move towards the centre of the road if I hear a car going to fast coming up behind me. This always results in the driver slowing down and only occassionally makes them to resort to abuse by word or gesture. There have historically been too few accidents on these roads to say that they actually are safer but they definitely feel safer and they are quieter. That is not to say that a large proportion of vehicles don't exceed the limit but the measure has clearly reduced speeds and the exceedances are generally only quite marginal. When driving myself on these roads I am very aware that it requires quite a degree of concentration to maintain speeds at under 20mph and a digital indicator may not be 100% accurate. There are also times where it may be argued that a short burst of speed is justifiable, for instance to reach a refuge to avoid delaying a bus.  For this reason I would be very uncomfortable with a regime of fines that enforced restrictions at say 24mph. A lot of drivers would be caught out and there is a possibility that safety would be compromised as more would be concentratong on speedometers than the road ahead. Time and time again, local authorities have shown that if they are given opportunities to levy fines they will do it to the full extent allowed as they desperately need revenue. With the cost-of-living crisis a fine will have an even more devastating impact on a person's monthly disposable income and they will fall more heavily on relative lower paid workers such as delivery drivers, private hire drivers, trades people and care workers. Buses routinely exceed the 20mph limit no doubt because drivers are under pressure to keep to schedule. I assume that they are penalised if they do get fined and this will be another set of low paid workers who will suffer financially. As a result they will tend to over-compensate by driving well below the speed limit which will further delay buses which are already struggling to provide a reliable service in current traffic conditions. Another point is that anyone who sticks to the limit knows that, every now and again, some idiot will over take you. This is obviously extremely dangerous but will become more commonplace if limits are rigidly enforced which may outweigh any safety benefits delivered by lower speeds.

Andrew OSullivan ● 1428d

"There have historically been too few accidents on these roads to say that they actually are safer but they definitely feel safer and they are quieter."You're right to feel safer. If you look at the record of all injury collisions on London's roads in the last five years, a pedestrian hit by a motor vehicle is twice as likely to be killed if the speed limit is 30 mph rather than 20 mph.

Tom Pike ● 1428d

Why on earth aren’t people using reflective spray on their number plates to beat these despotic and unnecessary fines. It is pathetic to fine someone for ‘speeding’ at 24mph. Ridiculous limit imposed by ridiculous despots.

Steve Taylor ● 1428d

"Ridiculous limit imposed by ridiculous despots."So halving the fatality rate in injury collisions is not a sufficient reason for introducing 20 mph limits? That has saved around 40 people's lives in London since 2017.

Tom Pike ● 1428d

As someone who walked up Wellesley Road pretty much every weekday morning in the summer, the idea that it is a "racing track" seems from my experience to be nonsense, at least from Rhythm & Brews up to just past Burlington Road, partly because there is a serious pinch point just before Marlborough Road. Of course it could be worse west of Burlington Road and before you get to Oxford North.  Maybe it is a very short race track!If speeding is a serious problem there, get the Council to stick some cameras on it, a few hundred speeding fines will not only improve Council finances but hopefully act as a deterrent.But of course you should also address why, especially for east bound journeys, the amount of traffic on Wellesley Rd has increased (morning rush hour is particularly bad with innumerable vans).  I am sure it has absolutely nothing to do with the bus gate causing increased congestion on that part of CHR

Justin Stephenson ● 1428d

Steve could you elaborate? refective spray? Dont want to get you banged up but I was really tired of crawling at 20mph late at night from Harlesden to W4 down deserted Victoria rd, Horn Lane and Bollo Lane, when 30mph was just right. If you know these roads you'll know what I mean. Once I came off into the smaller roads, of course 20mph made sense.

Stephen Gould ● 1428d

"That has saved around 40 people's lives in London since 2017."You would need to elaborate exactly how it (the 20mph limit) saved 40 lives. What speed was the car travelling when these people were hit? Why were they hit? Stepping in front of car or car driver having a heart attack etc etc? If the offending car was travelling at 19mph and hit a pedestrian and the pedestrian survived, what evidence is there that the pedestrian would definitely have been killed if the car was travelling at 25 or 26mph? Or even 30mph? The alleged saving of 40 lives in London since 2017 covered exactly how many miles of road restricted to 20mph? How many manhours of productivity were lost due to traffic congestion caused by the 20mph speed limits? How was the increased pollution measured which was caused by additional braking and acceleration caused by the 20mph speed limits?

Steve Taylor ● 1428d

Kew Road is another one and also Windmill Lane.

Brian Green ● 1428d

At night 20mph is a ridiculous speed why don’t we have any imagination and adjust speed based upon time of day/night. Driving at 20 on empty roads at night is truly difficult.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1428d

There’s not a huge difference between the number of pedestrians killed on London’s roads at any hour of the day or night. In good part that’s simply because people are more likely to speed when the roads are empty. Saturdays have the highest numbers of deaths in London, and speeding is the most frequent contributory factor to pedestrian fatalities.

Tom Pike ● 1428d

Why are pedestrians so stupid as to walk in front of moving vehicles?

Steve Taylor ● 1428d

Why would anyone drive at 20mph at night on empty roads. It’s stupid!

Steve Taylor ● 1428d

“Why are pedestrians so stupid as to walk in front of moving vehicles?”If you die as an occupant of a motor vehicle in road collision in London, the most likely day of the week is a Saturday, and the most likely time of day is from midnight to 2am. That’s obviously nothing to do with pedestrians. Looking at our local roads, 1% of drivers on The Avenue are going over 45 mph on a Saturday. That’s nothing to do with pedestrians either.

Tom Pike ● 1428d

If it’s nothing to do with pedestrians, why do you assert  “ speeding is the most frequent contributory factor to pedestrian fatalities.”Human nature dictates that you will always have people speeding at 2am on a Saturday night whatever the speed limit. People like to live dangerously. It’s human nature and people won’t be controlled by jobsworths, bureaucrats and despots. Some of those people will be killed due to their behaviour but most won’t. Those who are killed on a Saturday night  are likely to be under the influence of alcohol and will speed if the speed limit is 20 or 40 or 60 or 70mph!

Steve Taylor ● 1428d

There are thankfully only a small proportion of people who drive under the influence, but there are many more whose driving speed is a factor in their and other people’s deaths. Given the risk of pedestrian fatality in an injury collision is doubled at 30 mph compared to 20 mph, scrapping 20 mph limits would result in significantly more deaths on London’s roads.

Tom Pike ● 1427d

“ scrapping 20 mph limits would result in significantly more deaths on London’s roads.”. Nope, educating pedestrians would result in less deaths or injuries. And in the grand scheme of things, deaths are minuscule compared to the traffic chaos and additional pollution caused by the ridiculous 20mph limits. Road sense for pedestrians should be automatic but, if not, kids should be taught some road sense by their parents. It’s very simple, if you are a pedestrian and you don’t take care when crossing roads or disembarking from a bus, you may die if you are hit by a car doing 10, 20 or 100mph.  People should take responsibility for their own lives and not rely upon the nanny state.

Steve Taylor ● 1427d

Driving with 30 rather than 20 mph limits results in more acceleration and braking, and that leads to increased particulates, the pollution most damaging to health. You're also intent on discounting the effect of vehicle speed given the massively increased risk of being killed by a car being driven at 20 or 100 mph. You say people should take responsibility for their own lives, and surely that extends to the effect our choices have on others. Is minimising the damage and risk of injury or death to other people, as you have just done, really demonstrating responsibility?

Tom Pike ● 1427d

Steve, you are being ridiculous.  You - as a driver - can't see as well at night and whatever the speed LIMIT is you should adjust your speed down whenever driving conditions are not at their best.Pedestrians, cyclists and other motorists are also unlikely to be able to gauge your speed as well in the dark.

Philippa Bond ● 1427d

With an automatic I use the brakes much more to stay at 20mphbecause of the automatic transmission wants to change up continually, not good at all for automatics so I avoid these routes completely.

Janice Evans ● 1427d

20mph at night is utterly ridiculous and try as you may there is absolutely no justification for it

Jayne Thorburn ● 1427d

I think you mean it is harder to control your urge to go faster not that there is no justification for it.

Philippa Bond ● 1427d

"20mph at night is utterly ridiculous and try as you may there is absolutely no justification for it"Most of London's roads are now 20 mph, and in the last five years 23 people died on them between midnight and 6 am. In comparison, 66 people died on the minority of roads with 30 mph limits. Over the same time period, 3505 people were injured on the 20 mph roads and 6612 on the 30 mph roads.These are not intrinsically different types of roads - it's the borough that sets the speed limit and the same road will change limit as it crosses the boundary.So whether you find 20 mph limits at night ridiculous rather depends on what value you put on life and injury compared to convenience. You can see that assessment playing out as more and more councils across the UK are looking at London's statistics and rolling out 20 mph limits.

Tom Pike ● 1427d

Tom, how dare you come out with facts on here :)

Basil Finnis ● 1427d

Soon all new cars will have speed limters as per EU law (which we are expected to accept). However you will be able to disconnect that function. So anybody with a new car will have no excuse to speed so it would make sense for fines to be increased for drivers who disconnect this feature.

Nicholas Beard ● 1427d

Well, the first cyclist who is fined for travelling over 20mph (many go by our house every day at 20+mph) will, no doubt, be defended by this gentleman.

Robin Knight ● 1425d

There is no speed limit for cyclists. So no need for your new BFF on the forum to defend anybody because they will not be fined for not committing an offence.

Paul Campbell ● 1425d

There's still time now to practise reducing your speed.  I spent a while the other day travelling at 10mph behind a cargo bike with children in it. (All of about 5 min.) It was on a road where it isn't a good idea to overtake.  If you can't go at 20mph how on earth will you be able to drive at 10mph for a few minutes?

Philippa Bond ● 1425d

Driving slowly behind something, like a fleet of bicycles or a bus or a loaded truck, along a narrow street is one thing, but driving slowly along a wide deserted road is quite different and far more difficult, and some would say, less necessary.

Peter Evans ● 1425d

Tom, I wonder how many accidents were a result of drunk, unlicensed or youth accidents? 20mph is ridiculous at night on a clear road and incredibly hard to do! Would be good to understand the data behind the stats, very easy to manipulate data to one’s advantage…

Jayne Thorburn ● 1425d

Sure, there is less traffic and that makes it more difficult to go slowly but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't.  It is called self-control. You can't be sure that there'll be no other traffic. There's always a chance there will be some idiots racing.

Philippa Bond ● 1425d

Just under two years ago a friend of mine was seriously injured by a dangerous driver hurtling along at 50 in a 20mph zone. Her companion was killed. Three children lost their mother and two nearly lost theirs. It was 11.30pm. It’s nonsensical to suggest that the 20 limit should be lifted at night.

Stewart Jones ● 1424d

Can we push for a crack down on cyclists without lights.  I’ve been out in the evenings more than usual this week. So many unlit , hard to see cyclists. Yesterday a woman with a young child on a seat at the back of her bike along Bollo Lane in the dark. On the road! On this occasion I’d rather she had ridden on the pavement .

Maggie Dodge ● 1424d

"Exceeding the speed limit" is the largest contributory factor listed in fatalities. Impairment by alcohol is the 9 places lower. You can look up the statistics for yourself - they're on the TfL collision dashboard. As there are much fewer cars on the road at night, the probability of a driver being involved in a collision fatality is proportionately much higher. The fact that people drive faster is clearly a contributory factor.Given the increased risks to others, why is keeping to the speed limit particularly difficult to do when it is dark?

Tom Pike ● 1424d

Because for modern cars 20mph is really quiet hard, on an empty road at night it is utterly ridiculous even if it was 30/40mph that would be much more reasonable. I have to keep checking my speed at 20mph as it too easy to creep to 21/22mph with zero acceleration. We need to be smarter about our road use and speed, not to do blanket 24 hr conditions when it is unreasonable.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1424d

On Sutton Court Road you'd be lucky to hit 2mph right now, let alone 20.

Davey Harris ● 1424d

Sounds like you need some additional driving lessons if you struggle to stick to the speed limit. Especially in modern cars which usually have speed limiters. The Institute of Advanced Motorists used to be based on the High Road near Halfords, they do supplementary training. 

John Hall ● 1424d

So you really want to be able to drive faster when the risks of a fatal collision are highest? That's not smart, it's irresponsible.It also gives the impression that your own convenience, rather than any evidence, governs your position on any traffic measures.

Tom Pike ● 1424d

Reply to Tom:  Perhaps it is because you can't see the brake pedals!  How and why on earth would you have one speed for daytime and another one for night when right now people don't understand that speed limits are max speeds and road conditions especially due to the weather should be taken into account?It will just cause further confusion when you already see many cars out at night in the rain without lights!  New cars with manuals that need a forklift to pick up should come with some basic safety instructions!  Or maybe some lessons as they have changed so much over the years.

Philippa Bond ● 1424d

“ Driving with 30 rather than 20 mph limits results in more acceleration and braking, and that leads to increased particulates, the pollution most damaging to health”No it doesn’t!  People attempting to keep to the ridiculous 20mph limits are braking and accelerating far more than they would of the limits were a sensible 30mph.  You see it every day when the smiley face changes to a red faced scowl when someone is travelling at, say, 25mph. They then brake furiously to well below 20mph and then accelerate again! Particulates delight as pollution increases due to the ridiculous speed limit. And if a fool is going to step out in front of a car he or she will do it no matter what the speed!

Steve Taylor ● 1424d

JT: "I have to keep checking my speed at 20mph as it too easy to creep to 21/22mph with zero acceleration."RC: Which is one good reason why they allow a margin over the limit before taking action.Another is that a car's speedometer might not be completely accurate. For example, my own car's speedo routinely indicates a 1-2 mph higher speed than my SatNav.Meanwhile, I had thought that the allowable margin was 10% + 1mph i.e. 23 mph, but someone noted elsewhere on this forum that it is actually 24 mph for a 20 mph limit.Out of interest, have you ever got a ticket for speeding in a 20 mph zone, either during daylight or after dark?

Richard Cathcart ● 1424d

Why not lobby for a start the Walking and Cycling Czar Will Norman:  WillNorman@tfl.gov.uk for a start to get a See & Be Seen Campaign going?Currently we also have a lot of road markings eg zebra crossings that need repainting.  How long before we hear complaints from those racing at night that they did not see pedestrians crossing?  They'll be blaming everything and everyone else.

Philippa Bond ● 1424d

In Southwark where I work the Muppets on the Labour Council have repainted the old black & white zebra crossings in Pride colours. Confusing for guide dogs I hear and a bloody waste of money to boot

Peter King ● 1424d

Why are cyclists not subject to 20mph restriction?On that basis?Cyclists (so called) regularly go down Pumping Station Rd and along Chiswick Mall at 20-25mph - often the electric variety. Are they subject to normal traffic rules? If not, why not?

Robin Knight ● 1423d

They sound cheerful and visible though,  There are a lot of road markings that are barely visible.  Zebras particularly worrying.

Philippa Bond ● 1423d

Speed limits do not apply to cyclists. There are no "normal" traffic rules. Traffic rules are calibrated for different users. Car drivers are not subject to the same rules as HGV drivers and cyclists are not subject to the same rules as car drivers. You have a lot to learn.

Paul Campbell ● 1423d