Forum Topic

Parklets - what a joke

So the idea is to remove short term parking for shoppers and replace them with either frivolous plantings, or commercial capacity for adjoining restaurants and cafes.Firstly, so chiswick needs less parking to allow people to support local businesses?Secondly, who wants to sit on an exposed wooden structure right next to a road, presumably enjoying pollution and the prospect of a car running into your 'parklet' [you know its going to happen then watch the backlash] Thirdly, who is supporting these monstrosities?  I dont know but why do i think its likely to be a specific adjoining commercial beneficiary or the anti car lobby?  The council would have problems just closing off parking as covid isnt what it was, heres the next attempt.Fourthly, the council says they have to be maintained - yes looking forward to seeing this happening.

Bob Roberts ● 1450d72 Comments

The Council has no  problem closing off parking,  just look at the various markets outside the Police Station. I believe they commandeered those at the back of the High Road too. They’ve got it down to a fine art. That and LTNs based one on wrong information . Once Chiswick is fully owned by cyclists there’ll be no need for parking spaces, just bike racks

Maggie Dodge ● 1450d

Myself, the 50 people sat outside alongside Devonshire Road, and the businesses serving them right now would disagree. 

John Hall ● 1450d

The grip is tightening. The selfish cycle lobby are stepping upa gear. Maybe people will take things a bit more seriously now.

Maggie Dodge ● 1449d

I bet The Devonshire Road Gang and co might get a bit annoyed if they put some parklets where their tables are and a bunch of guys drinking Special Brew sat outside serenading their customers.

Russell Pearson ● 1449d

I'm always baffled when these discussions are predicated on businesses being limited to those on Devonshire Road. Plenty of others out there, many of which would not benefit from these initiatives. Also, would a business have to pay to use these spaces as they do for the use of pavement? If so, why?And what do we make of places like Dominos using an entire length of curb for parking motorbikes? That's free parking for them. Yet businesses that need vans are paying upward of 800 pounds per year. Why the disparity? Use of the street is use of the street.The parklet in Hammersmith is used for Lime bike/scooter storage and never maintained by LBHF which ordinarily do a bang up job maintaining Lyric Square. Sitting there is bizarre. Would be better to see money spent upgrading the existing pavement space with benches, plantings and some sort of sculptural bike racks.

David Lesniak ● 1449d

"Maybe people will take things a bit more seriously now."Hopefully - Yes.  One third of Pakistan flooded and under water - an area the size of Great Britain.  Not just rainfall which happens following increased heat but also melting snow and ice from the Himalayas.  Pakistan creates far fewer emissions than many countries. Those emissions that are reduced by using cars even less.

Philippa Bond ● 1449d

Emissions would surely be reduced if LTNs and cycle lanes were removed toallow the free flow of traffic, including buses.  The LTNs were brought in using false figures, why, because the truth would have shown them to be a bad idea. Normally a bad idea is dropped . But they decided just to tweak it to get what the LCC and others had set their heart on. The cycle lane is flawed. Still designated as temporary, because they acknowledge it’s still needs more work. How much more work, how much more money. The cycle numbers fluctuate, according to time of day and weather conditions, fair enough, but cycle lanes and road closures are 24/7.  Something needs to change and it clearly not going to be getting us out of our cars. The traffic jams prove that enormous numbers of people won’t be bullied out of their employment or their preferred method of travel. Cycling doesn’t work for many. Not able, doesn’t suit their needs. Just don’t want to. When will the pollution created by the cycle lobby be deemed unacceptable and the simple measures taken to reduce those emissions. Accept  by accepting defeat and return our roads back  to ‘normality’. Throw in better PT, spend the money on pavements to facilitate walking. Get rid of street clutter. voila!

Maggie Dodge ● 1449d

I think the puzzle with this odd idea - is a question of priorities that our elected members have. The complaints about the proliferation of weeds in our streets, which in turn help block the soakaways when it rains are many, but remain. The dumping of those blasted Lime bikes is another bugbear, yet Hounslow have so far not managed to sort out any agreement with the company like the neighbouring borough of Richmond. I think many people - from bitter experience  -think that these 'parklets' will attract A.S.B. after the shops shut and there's not so many people around. Personally I think Hounslow would be better off attending to the more basic and mundane, everyday matters that irk. Given the general lack of maintenance in parks, and our streets and some of our trees, this will be fun to see them maintaining these!

Vanessa Smith ● 1449d

Cut and paste propaganda from the pro fossil fuel groups you like to give even more time to Maggie?

Philippa Bond ● 1449d

What concerns me is these will be targets for mindless graffiti yobs who will deface these in no time.Will it be Hounslow or TfL responsible for dealing with it?Good luck if it's TfL as it has taken me weeks of nagging to get my local subway cleaned up.

Adrian Irving ● 1449d

All my own words Philippa, unlike you who posts links constantly

Maggie Dodge ● 1449d

If I had one pound for every time Maggie Dodge called in cyclists, or the "LCC", or the "cycle lobby" I'd have paid off my mortgage twice already.

Francis Sheehan ● 1449d

Bad loser in our discussion me thinks.  I’ll go on about the LCC and the cycle lobby until their false information is not only brought to light but acted upon. No comment on the false figures used to get LTNs installed Francis? “Local businesses near LTNs have reported 20%-80% reductions in custom.”

Maggie Dodge ● 1449d

Unfortunately Maggie you seem to be creating your own hell on earth by spending so much time in the anti any change pro fossil fuel twittersphere whose algorhythms just create an even bigger vortex of negativity.

Philippa Bond ● 1449d

PB:"Unfortunately Maggie you seem to be creating your own hell on earth"But, but, splutter, splutter, aghhhh - it is the EVIL CYCLING LOBBY, not Maggie, which is creating the hell on earth which is modern day Chiswick.Or "Dodge City", as I like to think of it....

Richard Cathcart ● 1449d

Ha ha Phillipa, that made me laugh out loud.  You and your  buddies have created the hell . You would love the millions of people like me, car drivers, not forgetting those in denial, bus users, pedestrians, to go away and let the you have your wicked way, sorry  not going to happen.  Another one with nothing to say about the fake figures and the damage to people and businesses. No shame!  Yet you go all holier than thou when it suits your agenda.

Maggie Dodge ● 1449d

Parklets are not just in Hounslow.  When I first saw one in Ealing I just thought -well, that's not somewhere I would want to sit -  but I have seen them and heard about them in lots of places now.https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20053/transport/2400/parklets/4

Philippa Bond ● 1449d

I think you will find that many people have reassessed their priorities in the present circumstances.  Many businesses may find the extra space useful as the lack of space during the worst of Covid will have caused hardship.  Just look at how many people went looking for homes with gardens and pubs with gardens.

Philippa Bond ● 1448d

The idea of dedicating a parking space to seating areas is rather popular in Europe too, but I guess it makes more sense to think of it as yet another idea borne out of the mind of the "evil cycle lobby" [sic].I dread to think what'll happen to this forum when somebody in London dares introducing pedestrian-only streets/squares.

Francis Sheehan ● 1448d

Let’s contemplate pedestrian only pavements i.e no cyclists. Never going to happen is it 😉.

Maggie Dodge ● 1448d

In Oxford I've seen cyclists dismount to walk their bikes through a pedestrianised pavement used for outside dining.  It is what cyclists always used to do in London rather than cycle on (non-shared) pavements and over zebra crossings.  Why be so negative when everyone needs to adjust?Car drivers need to learn to show more consideration and respect for those walking and cycling.  I still see them overtaking cyclists when they should just go slower and wait and not giving way to pedestrians at crossings and at junctions whenbthey are trying to cross roads.

Philippa Bond ● 1448d

There is a cognitive dissonance Francis. Many of the people most angry at street space change love to go to European cities where they stroll on car-free streets and dine in car-free piazzas. During the consultations one of the leading anti-safer streets campaigners sat memorably in a beautiful car-free piazza on video conference surrounded by happy people chatting and laid into the Councillors, Officers and consultants for daring to implement a couple of traffic restrictions in Chiswick. Car-free streets are for holidays and then you have to get back to miserable perceived real-life utilitarianism on Great British roads.

Paul Campbell ● 1448d

You are not living in the real world  Philippa . Are you on Twitter? It’s alive with the false data stories. !  If you have to fake data what dies that mean?

Maggie Dodge ● 1448d

There is a street between south ken tube station and the museums that is so much better now with more space for pedestrians.

Philippa Bond ● 1448d

“In Oxford I've seen cyclists dismount to walk their bikes through a pedestrianised pavement used for outside dining.”  It is what cyclists always used to do”Exactly Philippa , the operative word being “used”How ever much you give cyclists these days, LTNs, cycle lanes, they still want the pavement too. Designated  pedestrian areas are supposed to be that . They rarely dismount, signs ignored, common sense ignored, red lights ignored. Stop pretending cyclists are the good guys. The restrictions are minimal , the penalties are minimal because they refuse to be identifiable. Why is that?

Maggie Dodge ● 1448d

Speaking of which…Is there anything in the story that coaches dropping tourists off at the Kensington museums, still use Dukes Meadows as a free parking spot while they wait to collect them?

Russell Pearson ● 1448d

“Council is slammed for 'spending £60,000' on 'eyesore' parklets.” The picture is of reclining wooden benches 🙄You might ask which Council, we’ll it’s many and could soon  be yours 👏

Maggie Dodge ● 1448d

Sorry, Philippa, you'll have to do better than businesses finding the extra space usefulWill it be free of charge? Why would only some businesses benefit from their placement? Why wouldn't all? Funny thing is we have pavements already that could easily be upgraded to be more inviting and used more by business. On a seasonal basis, even. Why let parklets rot during winter when these space could be used for what will surely be the increase in traffic during colder months.As to Francis' suggestion of pedestrian only streets and squares, surely we can put this into beta mode by banning cycles from pavements and parks to see how we get on with that concept before pouring money into his idea which will only get ruined by Deliveroo drivers throttling there way through at top speed. Just a thought.

David Lesniak ● 1448d

If they do. So what? You do see a few coaches parked up, but not so many as to be a problem. Good luck to them.

Stephen Gould ● 1447d

“So what” has been the LBH attitude to Grove Park as a whole. As to those living on the other side of the A316, I think the view taken was also “Stuff you”. No consultation, no planning, no real strategy.

Russell Pearson ● 1447d

Sorry, must be in a parallel thread. Was replying to a post about coaches taking people to Museums etc, parking up in Dukes Meadow. I have every sympathy for any coach driver, lorry driver, delivery van trying to go about his/her business in london. Nightmare.

Stephen Gould ● 1447d

Sorry, hadn’t realised you lived near the coach park and were experiencing all the issues the people who live the other side of the A316 have.

Russell Pearson ● 1447d

Parklets aren't all financed by Councils and they have been around for years.  I really don't see what the all the fuss is about. You've picked up from and are quoting from a newspaper which is just trying to whip up emotions.

Philippa Bond ● 1447d

These are already happening.  They could also be useful for parking for bicycles especially the larger ones since everyone is complaining about the hire ones being left everywhere. Santander ones with their docking stations are moving closer.

Philippa Bond ● 1446d

£60,000

Maggie Dodge ● 1446d

You're just quoting the Daily Mirror's attention seeking headline.  There are and have been other parklets and they are not always paid for by the Council.

Philippa Bond ● 1446d

I see outdoor games are a use case for these Parklets. I’m hoping it will be local chess players almost like in the Netflix series ‘Queens Gambit’. Gosh those Soviets we’re ahead of the game, (npi), if so.

Russell Pearson ● 1446d

Parklets are worth the money even if they're just for triggering and eating away at the minds of the usual reactionary conservatives.

Paul Campbell ● 1446d

Not sure what a ‘reactionary conservative’ is these days. Care to enlighten us Paul? At the expense of triggering.

Russell Pearson ● 1446d

So you can’t think of a better use for £60k in these difficult times Paul?  Perhaps put it towards campaigning for the reinstatement of the Ken High St cycle lane? I’m sure you’ve no interest in it going towards food banks etc . Wherever that money is coming from,  there has to be a better long term use than a structure that will be unused except for the initial photo shoot , and thenleft to rot away full of beer cans and rubbish! That’s the experience elsewhere

Maggie Dodge ● 1446d

To your point, Maggie, imagine the improvement in the existing street scape if benches and plantings were installed on the proper pavement, not some flimsy temporary crap barely held together by paper clips.

David Lesniak ● 1446d

I don’t think we need more benches even , I could be wrong.  Certainly weeds etc are taking over in places but I can even live with that. Think how much £60 could do for a food bank, a school. As I said before someone  says it’s meant for roads etc. if there’s a spare £60k in any budget, use it better. Change the rules, whatever it takes. We’re in crisis right now.

Maggie Dodge ● 1446d

Instead of believing sensationalist newspaper articles why not read the info on the LBH website about parklets in LBH?  Or the LBE website about LBE?  About parklets around the world.Yes - we are in a climate crisis right now.

Philippa Bond ● 1446d

A £60k parklet will solve the climate crisis?

Maggie Dodge ● 1445d

£60K is a Daily Mirror headline - I'm sure parklets can cost all sorts of prices.  You still haven't bothered to look past that headline.

Philippa Bond ● 1445d

Will a £1k parklet solve the climate crisis. Will any parklet solve anything other than take away more parking spaces.  Do you think you can prove that stopping cars parking, stops them driving past to somewhere they can park.  Answer the question please Philippa.  Are these parklets made out of reclaimed, repurposed materials?

Maggie Dodge ● 1445d

You are quoting just one source without any further investigation.  Did you ask the Mirror those questions?  Or whoever commissioned and paid for the particular parklet photographed?  They are your questions.

Philippa Bond ● 1445d

Just to show they've been around here for a while.There have also been pocket parks.

Philippa Bond ● 1444d

I have Philppa. If they are planted and maintained as well as the photo I will be delighted but amazed.If the Dukes Meadows planters are anything to go by the will decline into a weed infested, graffiti covered rubbish bin adding to the 'uglyfication' of Chiswick Hounslow seem hell bent on.

Adrian Irving ● 1444d

Adrian is right. Just look at the parklet in Hammersmtih at Hammersmith Grove and Beadon Road. Plants are dead, litter, bikes and scooters scattered. Parklets are a poor substitute for actual, substantive urban design. They are pretty much like putting a DIY kit for your back garden out in the public realm and expecting it to perform to the standard of urban street furniture. As for the planted bits, it is nothing more than a potted garden. But without the dedicated watering needed to sustain it. Oops.

David Lesniak ● 1444d

Let’s remember the point of the parklet, as admitted by those who instalthem. To remove parking spaces. Once that job is done they don’t care if they deteriorate l, because the space is filled. So while we’re being honest about their purpose,  put in a couple of cones with a No Parking sign, cost £50 and no maintenance.

Maggie Dodge ● 1444d

If these constructions are intended for people to have a sit down and eat a snack, maybe they could leave a few cars dotted about that people could sit in!  But seriously... I recall during the Covid period that pavement/in-the-road areas like this were set up for the use of adjacent shops and cafes who presumably looked after them.  Otherwise, as others have suggested, without proper maintenance by the council, they'll just become a mess.

Peter Evans ● 1444d

Some do and some don't.  It often depends on whether people see them needing water and do something about it (especially during the heatwave when a lot of planting including saplings needed extra help) or just watch them dying and then complain about it.Why does the Council have to pay for everything or look after everything?  Especially when people don't want to pay for things.

Philippa Bond ● 1444d

This one seems to have been there for just one day:https://actforealing.org/2022/09/15/little-ealing-pop-up-parket-21-september-2022/

Philippa Bond ● 1444d

Philippa, I take your point but only to an extent.To maintain anything responsibility for it has to be clearly defined and fall squarely on someone's shoulders. Yes, others should and do step in to pick up rubbish and water etc but ultimately Hounslow must pick up the can (pun intended). Sadly their track record is less than sparkling. All too often their answer to general repairs etc is to erect ugly  plastic fencing up for months rather deal with it promptly.

Adrian Irving ● 1444d

How many of these works that residents are gradually taking responsibility for, are covered by our Council Tax? Usually if I pay for something I have some say.

Maggie Dodge ● 1444d

How much of that is due to the tremendous cuts that have come from central Govt?  Councils have been made to make decisions and cuts to services when they are struggling to look after those people unable or struggling to look after themselves - let alone the buildings for their community.  Those cuts will have meant putting people out of work and then outsourcing which doesn't necessarily simplify the situation and give a better service as it often needs more supervision.  All a part of a mythical neo liberal economic ideology.I don't think we should have families needing food banks and certainly not working families who aren't able to earn enough to live on.  Supermarkets have collection boxes for food donations.  Govt now relies on charities and charitable donations in so many areas eg the food banks and health care - all those charities who raise funds for research and care during all the illnesses we can suffer from especially with living longer and not having the extra necessary social care available from Councils to look after those have little or nothing and no local families.Community meeting places are important and we don't have all the local philanthropists of the past.  People's worlds have grown larger and those with money no longer view their community in the same way.  We are much more itinerant in our lives.

Philippa Bond ● 1443d

Gee, Philippa, you've just argued against yourself.With all those cuts being made, surely the monies for the parklets should be shifted elsewhere. Seems if it went to supporting foodbanks that would make you happy.Otherwise your idea that when passing by if someone had a drop of water left in their bottle, all that's needed is a little tipple toward the plantings. An absolutely ludicrous concept.Adrian is correct. Without some proper structure these things don't have a chance in hell of surviving. But if they spent 60K on improving various pavement locations here and there, that would be grand.

David Lesniak ● 1443d

I agree that bikes must be banned from parks - dangerous for children and dogs.  And the pavement rule needs to be enforced with heavy fines.

Claire Moran ● 1443d

Unfortunately there is nothing funny about Parklets. They cost about £60,000 a pop, look ridiculous, aren’t pleasant to sit at as they are usually where a car parking space used to be , they fall into disrepair as no one maintains them, and they are a magnet for anti social behaviour. Another crackpot scheme from our “listening “ council.  They seem to have ( our) money to burn.

Sarah Potter ● 1442d

Blimey, I hadn't realised that they cost SIXTY THOUSAND each.Is that a typo? If not someone is laughing all the way to the bank.Is it too late to tender for the job as that is an outrageous rip off.

Adrian Irving ● 1442d

It would be interesting to compare the costs between extending the pavement vs installing a parklet. Seems to me parklets are nothing more than a box-ticking exercise (ooh, we're so super green we can hardly stand it) thinly disguised as hedging the bet the road space may just need to be claimed back. Why not identify target areas, extend the pavement properly, then plant it and install street furniture according to a plan that could be rolled out across the borough?

David Lesniak ● 1442d

Not so at all David.A lot of people all over the place have looked after saplings and plantings during the heatwave.  Some of them just needed to feel that they could.  Others just expect someone else to do everything for them.  If you can carry a large plastic milk jug from a shop you can also carry the same of water to water something - especially if it is a community effort.  You have also fallen for and are busy propagating Maggie's and the Mirror's unproven 60K for a parklet - and surprise surprise both of you are vociferously anti any car restrictions.The parklet I referred to in Ealing was to do with a school and was there for ONE day.  They differ with what they are placed and can be used for.  Others may be sponsored by businesses.  Some may have planting and some may have benches.

Philippa Bond ● 1442d

It does not have to be Council money.  Don't believe the misinformation you are being fed.

Philippa Bond ● 1442d

Money is money and sixty thousand a pop is a lot of dosh for a pretty basic construction.Do you know something we don't about the funding them? Do tell.

Adrian Irving ● 1442d

https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20053/transport/2400/parklets/2 Basically you apply for one, get approval, meet the criteria and then are responsible for maintaining. It is not clear who pays.

Adrian Irving ● 1442d

https://www.livingstreets.org.uk/about-us/our-work-in-action/campaigning-for-parkletsThere are charities and other organisations and businesses you can apply to and you can also crowdfund.Chiswick Oasis used crowdfunding as well as other donations and grants to fund its amazing green wall at St Mary's. https://chiswickoasis.com/2019/04/08/green-walls/

Philippa Bond ● 1442d

There were some in Ealing filled with litter, vomit and cans. No one ever watered the plants. Not pleasant places to sit in a gutter with traffic whizzing by. A total waste of money. Better just to have a few benches dotted around on the pavement in suitable places.

Elizabeth Price ● 1442d

Sorry, Philippa, you're really way off the mark on this.Do you really think funding a green wall at a kids playground is the same as sprucing up a parking space?More to the point, why does this funding have to come from anything/anyone private when the CS9 budget should have had it built in from the get go? And/or is 60K really that far out of reach for a council that doesn't open its books to scrutiny as it should?

David Lesniak ● 1442d

Sorry David,  I was pointing out as you know that there are other methods of funding.  With a lot of enthusiasm, hard work and support great things can be achieved.

Philippa Bond ● 1442d

Yes, Philippa, I'm well aware of what is involved in taking a neglected space and turn it into a garden. We did if for 14 years using our own money. Then LBH, in particular Hanif Khan, sh*t all over it. There was also a point where the Hounslow Highways team came along and removed specimen planting.Otherwise in Hammersmith we've seen  the parklets funded by large multi-nationals with on-going maintenance provided by the Hammersmith BID (a group comprised of many large multi-nationals) things that don't exist in Chiswick nor will they ever. Oddly, though, we've seen the Power Road area, including the Chiswick Business Park, turned into an Enterprise Zone. Odd the business park is part of something that, ostensibly, they do not need. As an entity, they have never really been part of anything outside their own campus and I doubt that will change. If I'm wrong, it will only benefit one area of Chiswick.Where is the council improving all of the ward? They can't even be bothered to tend to existing tree wells and weedy pavements yet you'd like us to believe they will suddenly have a change in heart? Nah. They've proven time and time again they are incapable of change.

David Lesniak ● 1442d

David, I remember and enjoyed the lovely planting at the junction of CHR and Chiswick Lane.  I also remember your horror story of unknowledgeable Council contractors being let loose on it.I also remember that you did not like the UK version of Business Improvement Districts but that is a Govt initiative.  You preferred the US version.  There have been a lot of changes in shopping habits and many chains have or are reducing the number of outlets that they have.  So even where it was succeeding it may not be any longer.Are the Council having a change of heart?  It is just a lot of Councils now seem to be allowing parklets and have information about them on their websites.  That doesn't mean that they guarantee to allow all or any.  Business ones will still need to be licensed.We have a Govt who for years have been cutting back on spending on the state so there are always going to be complaints from those who want to see either no reduction or increased services.

Philippa Bond ● 1441d