Forum Topic

Warning – pedestrian glanced by a motorcyclist in the wrong lane at a pedestrian crossing.

This afternoon at about 1:45 pm, I was crossing at the pedestrian crossing near Windmill Road. I successfully navigated the bike lane and the westbound traffic (which was stationary), but as I stepped to cross the eastbound side, a motorcyclist, travelling west but in the eastbound lane, came at speed towards me. I pulled back, but he still glanced me. I yelled at him, however he merely replied, “I was looking out for you!” and then took off down Windmill lane. No apology, no checking if I was okay.I would love it if there were CCTV on the high street that could be used to endorse this idiot’s licence, but sadly I do not think CCTV is used for such purposes.  So this merely serves as a warning to others to check the opposite direction for idiots such as him.

Cath Macartan ● 1468d58 Comments

It's very true that you do have to make sure that you look both ways and keep on looking and listening.  Motor vehicles can also suddenly reverse without looking properly.Recently elsewhere in London I watched a car driver pull out from behind and overtake by driving the wrong side of the traffic island ahead and then along the wrong side of the road facing the oncoming traffic presumably simply because of impatience - and expecting to get away with it both in terms of fines and the damage caused to other lives and vehicles.

Philippa Bond ● 1468d

Philippa, such behaviour by car drivers as you describe is relatively rare. But it's commonplace for delivery scooter riders. When the traffic on CHR is snarled up or moving slowly they will overtake, often at considerable speed, completely on the wrong side of the road and right in the face of oncoming traffic. Pedestrians crossing the road still need to look to their right even when they're on the far side of the carriageway. It's interesting that in the constant war between them, drivers complain of cyclists and vice versa. But the most threatening form of transport (and the noisiest) is powered two-wheelers.

Robert Fish ● 1467d

Yes, I've been overtaken whilst walking across a zebra crossing by a scooter delivery driver.  One of those 'L' plated ones.  They do not appear to get enough tuition before taking to the streets.  I thought that the Mayor of London was investigating how much they were getting.  A neighbour was knocked down walking across one.

Philippa Bond ● 1467d

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2022/0286 It does not matter how much tuition you recieve. Once you pass it goes out the window.

Julian Pavey ● 1467d

Do any motorcyclists ever pass a driving test these days? The L plate, along with a large box on the back, seems to be a permanent feature of the hordes of motorcycles careering along the High Road.

Colin Jordan ● 1467d

On the RAC site it says that:Compulsory basic training (CBT) is a course designed to make sure you can ride a motorcycle or moped safely on your own. You must take it before riding a moped or motorcycle on the road, and an instructor can refuse to issue your certificate if they feel your riding is dangerous. The Government’s website provides a handy CBT course finder tool.You can be fined up to £1,000 and collect six penalty points for riding without a valid CBT certificate.This is at least more than I was required to do many moons ago. Of course, as somebody else has commented, any training can go out of the window once out on the road. The best bit of advice I received as a motor biker was to ride in the middle of the lane i.e. taking a car space.

Anne England ● 1467d

The riding in the middle is exactly what is recommended that cyclists do.  It means that they are not riding over slippery drain covers and discourages drivers overtaking when there isn't enough room for error and doing so would push them into the dangerous parked car door zone and kerb.  A lot of zebra crossings could also do with repainting too.  I wondered whether they are outdated but I'm not actually sure that crossings at traffic lights are necessarily safer because of the way that drivers can speed up to try and get through them before they change to red and cyclists and motorcyclists/scooter riders speed up to try and overtake the stationary queue before they turn green.  It's a very impatient world out there.As the weather changes and it gets darker earlier what we could all do is make sure that we make the effort to be visible when out and about at night and in the wet - and don't wear all black!  And if on wheels - however many - be patient and slow down to suit the conditions!

Philippa Bond ● 1467d

The CBT "test" is not a test in the sense of pass or fail.It basically comprises diving round a large tarmaced area carrying out very basic manoeuvres.The full test is a very different kettle of fish and is not that easy to pass.I believe you can only ride on a provisional licence for a limited period after which you must pass a full test. I think it is for two years but I could be wrong.Personally I think it essential to get professional training as soon as you can, preferably before you are let loose on the road.

Adrian Irving ● 1467d

It does seem strange that people being 'professional' drivers as part of their work are able to run around on L-plates. Food delivery drivers are very numerous and do quite often drive pretty dangerously and seem to rely on others taking evasive action. It is almost as if they think they're delivering an essential service, which of course they are when it's my dinner on route!

Rob Reynolds ● 1467d

Philippa- He was not riding in the middle; he was well into the other lane. The lane was blocked further west by a truck.- That pedestrian crossing does not need repainting.- It was mid-afternoon and very light.He was reckless, unapologetic and left the scene of an accident without giving details or even seeing if I was okay. He hurt me and left me very shaken. If I had been one step ahead, it would have been the full weight of him and the bike and not his mirrors. He is totally to blame. Not the road, the paint, the light. Him.

Cath Macartan ● 1467d

Insurance for motorbike delivery drivers on L-plates is very expensive, and I believe most fast-food outfits do not cover those costs for their drivers.

Richard Greenhough ● 1467d

I'm sorry you are still feeling angry and shaken by your frightening experience.  You've misunderstood me.  I'm not making excuses for him.  There is some very reckless and illegal driving and riding going on.  A lot is too fast for the conditions.  When I wrote "middle" I was referring to the way that cyclists and scooter riders are supposed to take the middle of the lane - not the middle of the road or the lane for vehicles travelling in the opposite direction.  You do however have to be aware though that some roads are One Way for motor vehicles but two way for cyclists and also that motorists will sometimes reverse without looking.  We all have to be supervigilant.

Philippa Bond ● 1466d

https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2022/1610I think it may be worth following this up as the amount of road training seems to be minimal.  I do wonder about the insurance too.

Philippa Bond ● 1466d

It would seem a basic requirement for drivers of mopeds and motorbikes to have passed their proper driving test before they're allowed to drive for a living.  As with so many things, this custom and practice has been allowed to established itself withou legal interference, and I can't see the present government being interested in making any changes.

Peter Evans ● 1466d

Hi Cath,Glad you are (relatively) ok. I can totally understand that the incident left you really shaken. Hope you make a full and quick recovery.

Andrew Jones ● 1466d

Julian posted a link earlier to the Mayor of London's website on questions re the training of motorcyclists and scooter riders and delivery drivers.  There are more courses they can take and study other than just that basic CBT one.  I guess we could all ask more questions.https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/safety/road-safety-advice/motorcycling-in-london

Philippa Bond ● 1466d

"can take"Therein lies the problem, Philippa. It is voluntary. It should be mandatory.

David Lesniak ● 1466d

Hi David,Without specifying what the courses are, it's difficult to say they should be mandatory.e.g. Some people take and pass Advanced Driving Tests. These are however voluntary.That said, it does appear to me that the standard of driving of a sizeable number of moped delivery drivers with L plates is pretty low, and efforts should be made (IMHO) to considerably improve the standard of driving.

Andrew Jones ● 1466d

Presumably any changes will have to go through Parliament just as the Highway Code has had to.  The Highway Code is for everyone - with sections for pedestrians, horse riders, mobility scooter riders and cyclists etc as well as motorists.  It is available online and at the local library as well as in bookshops.

Philippa Bond ● 1466d

Will.Norman@tfl.gov.ukAs mentioned previously the Mayor of London has been asked questions by members of the GLA - who you could also question - but since the idea is that active travel is to be encouraged we need to make sure everyone knows and adheres to the rules of the road.  It definitely looks as though more training is needed. 

Philippa Bond ● 1462d

" Yes, I've been overtaken whilst walking across a zebra crossing by a scooter delivery driver."Being perfect in every way, personally speaking I never use zebra crossings. As both a pedestrian and a cyclist I decided to never put myself in a position where if a car, or motorbike, or even bicycle simply doesn't see me or is simply distracted, they could hit me. It's simply a matter of waiting until the road is clear in both directions or in a single direction with a central reservation; no matter how long that is; which is never more than a minute or so, even when crossing the North Circular. Although obviously this is made far more difficult when as in the case of CHR there is a bi-directioinal cycle lane to navigate as well. And just as I wouldn't put my trust in drivers when this isn't absolutely necessary, neither would I put my trust in tests however strictly administered.Motorbikes and mopeds, like bicycles, are almost designed for "misuse"; being so easily manouverable  Conversly, it's surprising the number of people who will wait patiently at a set of traffic lights for the signal to cross, when there is absoltutely nothing coming in either direction. Even in the far distance.          michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1461d

Assuming this is a serious observation, what do you do when traffic stops to allow you to cross? Wave it on? 'No thank you, I'm waiting for a clear road!' You could do that anywhere! You don't need a Zebra crossing. Your approach seems to add confusion and uncertainty to a simple arrangement. The great thing about zebra crossings is that pedestrians have absolute priority over road traffic, which has to stop, whether they like it or not - and if they 'can't see' then they shouldn't proceed. That L plated motor scooters and others might not know this is something the authorities need to deal with, not pedestrians.

Peter Evans ● 1461d

"Assuming this is a serious observation, what do you do when traffic stops to allow you to cross? Wave it on?"I never go near zebra crossings, literally. I'll deliberately walk on the inside of the pavement to avoid any possibility of a motorist thinking I want to use one.Although... as mentioned in another post in answer to a specific question from Maggie Dodge, I explained how and why I sometimes walk in the road, but always facing the traffic - such that I can always jump onto the pavement should that prove necessary. Sometimes I walk past zebra crossings on the road in that situation. The only exception which I totally overlooked, would obviously be people with mobility issues, who would need much more time than myself, to cross the road . But rather than being seen as "blaming the victim", all I am suggesting is that, *where possible*, it's always better to trust your own judgement and eyesight, than rely on that of other people.  michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1461d

I believe my father never used a zebra crossing: he hated being told what to do and felt that those places represented that sort of control.  He didn't get run over - lasted until 95.

Vivienne Cox ● 1461d

Where I was concerned with the L plated delivery scooter driver - both he and the car stopped and then when I stepped onto the zebra he proceeded to cross.  Bizarre.  I always wait until the traffic has stopped but too much overtakes on zebra crossings or doesn't stop at all when it is obvious that people intend crossing.  If the pavement is busy I prefer to walk so that I am facing the traffic so I can see it and can't be clipped by wing mirrors.

Philippa Bond ● 1461d

" I believe my father never used a zebra crossing: he hated being told what to do "I wouldn't quite say that "helpful" motorists have been the bane of my life, but more than once, joining a line of slow moving traffic from the right, on the bike, a "helpful motorist" has stopped and waved me across; seemingly blissfully aware (at least, I hope he was) of another cyclist steaming up his inside. As he's still looking towards me, waving away, he's totally unaware of any of this, and so was somewhat taken aback by my reaction. michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1461d

I had an unusual experience today. I crossed CHR from the West side of Dukes Avenue on a red pedestrian light. It was quite safe to do so, because the lights were on the green phase for traffic exiting Dukes Avenue, the two cars waiting in Dukes Avenue were both turning right, and there were no cyclists in the cycle lane who might have been inclined to sail through the red light. Another pedestrian waiting to cross from the other side called me an idiot. When I pointed out it's both legal and a perfectly safe thing to do, if you know the sequence of the lights, he said I was just as bad as the cyclists who ignore red lights the whole time. My suggestion was that he might prefer to live in Austria, where jay-walking is an offence. I was amused by the unwitting irony of his response - "get a life"!I prefer to cross CHR at the zebra crossing in front of Chateau rather than at the Dukes Avenue lights, which have five phases, and where you can be waiting a long time. However, I'm not so keen on using the zebra crossing from the north side of CHR, because I've had too many experiences where vehicle traffic in both directions has stopped for me, and a cyclist has gone straight over. If the vehicle stopped on the south side is a bus, the cyclist who is just about to take you out can be completely unsighted.

Robert Fish ● 1461d

The overtaking cyclist when the cars have stopped at the lights has happened to me several times.  That's why I prefer a well painted and lit zebra.  I don't understand Vivienne's comment because it is you who wants to cross who causes the traffic to stop (or most of it) rather than waiting for sequences of lights that all traffic may try and race.

Philippa Bond ● 1461d

I don't want traffic to stop for me - I wait until there is none, or it's gridlocked.  Like Robert, I am able to assess when it is perfectly safe to cross an empty road.  I used to walk to school all by myself from the age of 5 and think I can still manage now.

Vivienne Cox ● 1461d

Don’t think the Highway Code is determined by Parliament!Yes, any relevant legislation included in the Highway Code is determined by Parliament, but it also includes recommendations/advice etc. that isn’t legislation per se.If the Highway Code ‘suggests’ you do something it almost certainly isn’t anything to do with Parliament.

Andrew Jones ● 1461d

@ Vivienne. How tall are you?  Empty roads?  You'd have to be lucky!  Zebra crossings as with other crossings are there for a purpose and often where many people who are less speedy will need to cross eg to the shops or schools or doctors' surgeries or Council offices.  They've often been campaigned for after several pedestrians have been killed trying to cross there. Surely it's still better to cross at a crossing than deliberately jaywalking through gridlocked traffic where the cyclists, motorcyclists and scooters are weaving in and out or worse still they're fixated only on the traffic lights ahead and racing often on the wrong side of the road to overtake all other obstacles to get through?These urgent overtakers can also be oblivious to the danger of cars joining and crossing the main road at rightangles who have to inch their way across.  I remember once hearing the buzz of a racing scooter from behind and then the thump as he hit the nose of a crossing car and seeing him fly through the air.  Pedestrians weaving in and out will surely have even less of a chance of death or damage. Jaywalking was made illegal in the States to make driving easier for motorists!

Philippa Bond ● 1461d

Within reason we should be able to make our own informed decisions. I don’t think we have jaywalking in this country.  Our choices are being eroded, so while we still can, I like to do what I want as long as it’s legal and not endangering others.

Maggie Dodge ● 1461d

Hear, hear, Maggie. Responsible pedestrians don't need to be treated like children. But if it's safe to cross between stationary vehicles in a traffic jam, you still have to be wary of some impatient delivery boy overtaking at speed completely on the wrong side of the road.

Robert Fish ● 1461d

@ MaggieWe DO have jaywalking.  However it is not illegal and that shouldn't be necessary here. We all have to take responsibility for ourselves when we cross and we should be all be teaching our children to cross the roads safely too instead of expecting them to learn at everything at school.  They learn good road sense through good example.  Children who travel on foot or by cycle when young also learn better road sense.

Philippa Bond ● 1461d

According to Wikipedia:"Jaywalking is the act of pedestrians walking in or crossing a roadway that has traffic, other than at a suitable crossing point, or otherwise, in disregard of traffic rules."I understand what you're saying Phillipa, but people crossing the road the way they often do isn't Jaywalking.If there are children about, then I'll often not cross until the pedestrian light has gone green, but at other times I'll cross as I see fit.

Andrew Jones ● 1461d

I don't believe that we have any laws or byelaws in the UK banning jaywalking, except on motorways. I was once ticked off in the USA by a policeman for crossing a clear road when the light said "Don't Walk", although I suppose given the width of  many of their highways you could start walking and a car could appear from nowhere before you made the other side. Unlike in the Land of the Free, most Brits are savvy enough to keep a close eye on the traffic before crossing, although some mobile phone users seem to have a death wish.

Richard Greenhough ● 1461d

Of course jaywalking happens - it just happens to not be illegal here (which I wrote earlier)!  However it is illegal in lots of other countries and I think in Northern Ireland? - and it's something that the British often fall foul of when abroad - so they really ought to at least know what it is.  Let's hope that everybody here at least tries to take care in crossing.  Some of those I've seen especially with small children (eg pushing a buggy way into the road first) or the parent with small children standing in the middle of the road is breathtakingly reckless.  The Emo whose jeans were so far down his bum that he had to scamper sideways across CHR like a large crab was lucky that there was so little traffic at the time on CHR but was at least laughably memorable!  Whereas there are rules like those for zebra crossings and pelicans and toucans etc where pedestrians SHOULD be far safer crossing - if it wasn't for the lack of diligence of some less vulnerable road users. https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/rules-for-pedestrians.html

Philippa Bond ● 1461d

Philippa, were you perchance an infant school teacher in a past life?

Robert Fish ● 1461d

Not sure what an Emo is, but the image of a large crab scampering sideways on CHR made me smile.To my mind, jaywalking is something that's illegal, so crossing the road in exactly the same way would be jaywalking in some countries, but (strictly speaking) it wouldn't be jaywalking in other countries e.g. the UK.A bit perhaps like calling a vacuum cleaner a hoover - or is that showing my age?

Andrew Jones ● 1461d

"A bit perhaps like calling a vacuum cleaner a hoover - or is that showing my age?"Just read a book where a vacuum cleaner is referred to as The Abhorrence - because Nature Abhors a Vacuum.

Richard Greenhough ● 1461d

Some forum threads are really going off-piste today.

Andrew Jones ● 1461d

"Jaywalking was made illegal in the States to make driving easier for motorists!""Except that it's not!"The misconception continues...

David Lesniak ● 1461d

"Unlike in the Land of the Free, most Brits are savvy enough to keep a close eye on the traffic before crossing"Who doesn't like a broad-brush false generalization?

David Lesniak ● 1461d

Robert  No, but I am having to return to supporting grandchildren with their Green Cross Code so now have to check that I am up to date with the current teaching.I do understand your point about knowing the sequence of the different traffic lights at a junction you know well but I also understand the person who was anxious at your decision to cross when they wouldn't have done and obviously didn't think it was safe for you.  Don't forget that these can be changed and also not all road users stop when they should - in fact rather a lot of all types don't.I don't think many of us are likely to get a lot faster and nimbler as we age and we may have to make adjustments as we go along.And so many people now walk along looking at their mobile phones instead of what is happening around them. 

Philippa Bond ● 1460d

Whether or not there are many prosecutions or fines or whatever is something else!

Philippa Bond ● 1460d

Philipa, I do what I do , as an adult, I also teach my grandchildren to wait for the green man, always.I consider jaywalking an American thing,  it’s not relevant to reference it. If its not illegal it’s a choice.

Maggie Dodge ● 1460d

It's really quite liberating to wander down the middle of a road.  There are many occasion when this is perfectly safe as there are no cars about.  Interesting that when The Mall is closed to cars on Sundays, most people still stick to the pavements: don't be conditioned!

Vivienne Cox ● 1460d

Walking down the middle of the road?  Maggie won't be happy with that and I'm unlikely to do that on CHR.  If it is that empty you'll probably get the boy racers playing real life GTA.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6251431.stm#:~:text=Jaywalking%20is%20an%20offence%20in,%2C%20Poland%2C%20Slovenia%20and%20Australia.&text=In%20Brisbane%2C%20police%20have%20begun,in%20near%2Dmisses%20with%20jaywalkers.Switzerland is interesting as if you get knocked down when jaywalking you get billed for the medical care.  Now that sounds like a sensible solution!

Philippa Bond ● 1460d

Philippa please don’t speak for me. I don’t understand why people do it. Now someone has offered an explanation.

Maggie Dodge ● 1460d

Maggie:  So please don't tell me not to reference jaywalking just because you consider it an "American thing".  It is most definitely relevant.  It shows what efforts other countries around the world go to (including part of the UK) to try to regulate traffic and reduce injuries to pedestrians - even if it did not start that way.  We are all part of the same world and most of us have moved around it to some extent at some time in our lives and gained differing experiences.  It is those different experiences which are so important to share and explore when it is our world that is now suffering from extremes in climate change.

Philippa Bond ● 1460d

As well as the freedom to cross the road when and how I like, what about returning our freedom to jump on and off a bus wherever? The present problem with CHR is that the official signalled crossing points have become so complicated and difficult for pedestrians to decode - other than slavishly waiting for a green figure to illuminate like in other inferior countries - that it's easier to go to an in between stretch of road and just go for it.

Peter Evans ● 1460d

Philippa , It’s not relevant in the UK so it’s not relevant to the discussion we were part of

Maggie Dodge ● 1460d

Maggie:  You are wrong. 

Philippa Bond ● 1460d

Thats fine Philippa,  whatever you need

Maggie Dodge ● 1460d

Yes.  When Routemasters were to be reintroduced I thought they would be like the old ones with an open back platform. Good exercise to run and jump on and great for getting off when in a snarl-up.

Vivienne Cox ● 1460d

If only I could run and jump, Vivienne. As it is, the closed rear platform of the Bozo buses doesn't inconvenience me at all, and it saves me from the disapproval of Philippa!

Robert Fish ● 1459d

LOL Robert.  You know that we all still have the choice right now - it just likely to get more difficult. I remember and loved being able to get off those Routemasters when they were stuck in traffic - and also when I actually saw exactly where I wanted to get off - there weren't mobile phones and those digital location screens on the buses then. It was very satisfying to beat the bus.  There also weren't masses of fast cyclists/motorcyclists/scooters weaving in and out the lanes.I presume the drop and gap from the tube train down to the platform used to be easier too - or have the trains changed making it bigger?  I now find it quite an uncomfortable jolt to the spine.

Philippa Bond ● 1459d

I think that the drop to the tube platform is much the same as it ever was, except that the floor of the "new" District Line rolling stock is now level with the platform. On other lines and on South West Railway those of advanced years need a parachute to drop down safely!

Robert Fish ● 1459d