Forum Topic

Road access amnesty

Among the temporary lifting of restrictions during A4 bridge repair works, Strand-on-the-Green residents are currently allowed to access Hartington Road. However nowhere in the literature from Hounslow Council can I find any reference to residents of the Hartington Road white list now being allowed to access Kew bridge via Thames Road in a reciprocal arrangement. Does anyone know the official position?

Bruce Hammal ● 1502d27 Comments

Don’t think that was granted. It’s not enforced unless they have camera cars, but safest is to drive along, stop, and access something, then continue on the journey.

Russell Pearson ● 1502d

Yes I know the reality has been to just carry on and ignore it but I can't see the logic in not making the position official. I'm thinking of the chances of succeeding in convincing a cab driver to take a chance - or sit for 5 minutes outside the Post Office.

Bruce Hammal ● 1502d

They state 4 minutes is the average non stop trip time, so that’s the minimum baseline. If it takes 2 minutes to stop, post a letter, and drive on, you could argue that if caught at say a secret 6 minute limit, that that was what you did. Accessed the post box and drove on.

Russell Pearson ● 1502d

Was there ever a white list for the phantom Thames Road, SotG restrictions? I thought access was defined by need and therefore if you weren't a resident all that was required was not to drive straight through to avoid being given a fine.Good luck persuading a cab driver to ignore any restriction signs. They are paranoid about getting PCNs and make more money from longer journeys.

Francis Rowe ● 1502d

I can fully understand cab and minicab drivers being 'paranoid' about ignoring restriction signs - a single PCN can wipe out an hour or two's (or more) work.

Andrew Jones ● 1502d

"Accessed the post box and drove on."That may not be enough.  The exemption on the Thames Road scheme is for vehicles "being used for the purposes of accessing premises, residential or commercial".  I doubt if a free-standing postbox counts as "premises".

Richard Jennings ● 1502d

It's worse than that Andrew, once costs are taken into account include what has to be paid to the ride platform, a PCN can more or less wipe out the driver's earnings for a day unless they are doing really long shifts.  It would be really interesting to see what percentage of fines are issued to taxi drivers.

Francis Rowe ● 1502d

What if you pop in the post office and say hello?

Russell Pearson ● 1502d

A chap from Pimlico Plumbers told me that since the spread of LTNs he picks up penalty fines of around £20.000 (twenty thousand pounds) a year. I'm not commenting on the justification for this, just making an observation. It helps explain why they are so expensive!

Bruce Hammal ● 1502d

"What if you pop in the post office and say hello?"Probably OK.  But it's all a bit academic, given that Hounslow are apparently not enforcing the restriction.  Certainly there have been no adjudicator appeals at all for it.  The similar restriction on Green Dragon Lane, Brentford, which also requires two cameras, is being enforced and has resulted in 58 adjudicator appeals since Jan 2020, most of them refused.

Richard Jennings ● 1502d

Richard I think we're all pretty familiar with the workarounds. I'm just wondering why the arrangement can't be formalised. As things stand those living in the SOTG zone will be permitted to join the white list allowing access along the length of Hartington Road to Chiswick Bridge. However those on the other side of the demarcation line (the railway bridge on Thames Road) in zones RV and CS will still be officially denied a through road  to Kew Bridge. The difference between "access all areas" and "access only" can be a matter of a few feet.Effectively residents living in SOTG have always had legal access to Kew Bridge and now they will  have another river crossing  to use should they wish to do so. All very sensible, I just fail to see why the freedom can't be applied in the other direction.

Bruce Hammal ● 1502d

Bruce,The Hartington Rd 'except permit holders' and SOTG 'except for access' are different.  Putting aside the lack of enforcement of 'except for access', providing a through route to Kew Bridge would mean either completely suspending the SOTG 'except for access' or replacing it with an extended 'except permit holders'.  Replacing it with a different restriction means going through the whole traffic order process again (either permanent or experimental).Maybe this will be considered but Hounslow are working to their budget and timescales, not TfL's A4 refurb program timescales.As Richard Jennings has said, 'except for access' is enforced by cameras on Green Dragon Lane.  I believe this was the first location in the country to use this restriction enforced by cameras in this way.I really don't know the reasons why they haven't deployed  'except for access' other than GDL.  Maybe there are technical, operational or other reasons why it doesn't scale.  I was always a bit sceptical because if this method had never been used before, there may have been some good reasons why.  The likes of Sam Hearn and Grove Park Group seized onto it as 'the answer to the maidens prayer' and wanted to see it used for 7, 8, 9 camera locations, not just 2...

Michael Robinson ● 1502d

Presumably, when the works on the A4 bridge finish, access via Hartingdon Road to Grove Park 'area' will go back to being just for zones RV and CS, and anyone resident in the SOTG CPZ will no longer be able to access via Hartingdon. Or have I got that wrong, and will SOTG CPZ residents still be able to get on the 'white list' as the previous poster seems to suggest?

Andrew Jones ● 1502d

According to the recently-received letter from Jefferson Nwokeoma the expansion to include SOTG residents is permanent and the expanded scheme will go live on August 22. It's confusing because this is happening alongside the temporary lifting of restrictions due to the A4 works. In answer to Michael's point it is hard to believe that a solution can't be found to bring Kew Bridge back into play for all local residents. Once Hartington Road reverts to local-only traffic from Chiswick Bridge I can't really see the need to continue restricting Grove Park locals from accessing Kew Bridge even if it's in theory only.

Bruce Hammal ● 1502d

Thanks Bruce for clarifying.I imagine one reason for continuing to not allow Grove Park residents to access Kew Bridge via Thames Road is that if you were to allow them to do so, you pretty much make it impossible to have a restriction on anyone who isn't resident in the zone as well.Say someone entered Thames Road from Kew Bridge and parked at the cafe or pub. I presume they should be able to leave the way they came in.If that's accepted, then there would have to be No Entry (except for access) restrictions signage at all entries to the other Grove Park CPZs. This would be to all intents and purposes be impossible to enforce, so pointless having a restriction. The current restriction from the bridge on Thames Road is at least conceivable to enforce.That's not me advocating against extending the scope of who can leave via Thames Road onto Kew Bridge, by the way, just me explaining why I can't imagine Hounslow adopting a larger area 'permitted' to leave by that route.

Andrew Jones ● 1502d

Life would have been so much simpler if the council permitted W4 residents access to all roads in W4. Instead of carving it up into small zones of confusion.

Sean Crawford ● 1502d

No motor vehicles except for permit holders restriction at Thames Road and Grove Park Terrace ..... really play to the gallery of the local residents who are obviously quite chuffed with their exceptional driving privileges and would like more of them.

Paul Campbell ● 1502d

I had a look at the successful appeals, and there is one that could indicate how Hounslow might consider approaching enforcement of the restriction (should they choose to do so)The agreed facts are that Mr T drove into Green Dragon Lane at 11.09.46 and drove out at the other end at 11.11.11. The time taken is 1 minute and 15 seconds. There is a prohibition to all vehicles accessing this route, except for access.Mr T’s case is that he lives on this road and was accessing his premises. He was speeding and called in at his house to pick up a set of keys. The council says that the timings do not support his case. They calculate that a vehicle driving at 20 mph, which is the speed limit on this road, would take 1 minute and 35 seconds.It is significant that Mr T lives in the area and so would have to drive past the restriction signs to access his road. The council has not provided any video footage and so I am unable to assess what speed the vehicle was travelling at. I found the Appellant’s representations to be credible and it is plausible that if he was speeding, he would have had time to make a quick stop.So popping into the post office to say hello would be enough to get you off the hook, should Hounslow ever decide to implement enforcement.

Andrew Jones ● 1502d

Interesting. Confessing to a more serious driving offence wins an appeal against a PCN. So much for the "war on motorists".

Paul Campbell ● 1502d

Hounslow don't enforce speeding offences though ... it's not a fully co-ordinated war! :-)

Andrew Jones ● 1502d

Yes the canny motorist can still win. I'll get the ECL to lobby government to authorise Councils to enforce speeding offences and close this loophole .... ;)

Paul Campbell ● 1502d

We can leave the feasibility of longer term Kew Bridge access for discussion another day. In the meanwhile would it not make sense to remove restrictions temporarily to help relieve the strain caused by the A4 repairs? If it was done for Hartington and Staveley roads why not Thames Road?

Bruce Hammal ● 1502d

There’s not much logic involved. It’s ideologically driven - Hounslow Cycling LCC lobbying etc created a dog’s dinner, one that was lapped up by the old LBH regime, with gusto (and gravy).Why not open up Harvard Hill for example? The only people who can access it are locals.

Russell Pearson ● 1502d

Post festum, that is. What we need long term is a full appraisal of the LTN, one that has buy-in from locals, and one that works.

Russell Pearson ● 1502d

Yes, yes and yes.  We have never been consulted.

Victoria Lynch ● 1499d

I agree completely with Sean. As I've said elsewhere, the simplest solution would be for LBH to lift all restrictions for W4 residents as long as the roadworks are in operation.

Colin Jordan ● 1498d

That seems to have been the original policy but it appears to have been changed following the first announcement of the roadworks.The council now believe that there isn't a problem restoring the restrictions from October 13 to November 25. The concern would be that this change of heart was down to political or financial reasons rather than transport related ones but I'm not totally convinced this is the case.During this phase the eastbound carriageway will be down to two lanes and they are clearly hoping that this will have less of an impact than the first phase when the westbound carriageway was down to one lane. They may be right and it also appears it will be impossible to join the A4 eastbound from the North Circular at Chiswick Roundabout so that may reduce stress on the road. The westbound carriageway should be relatively clear so there would be less incentive go through Grove Park to avoid Chiswick Roundabout.For those saying that they haven't been consulted about the restrictions, there is literally a consultation going on right now which ends in a few weeks. https://haveyoursay.hounslow.gov.uk/traffic-and-transport/staveley-road-and-burlington-lane-trial-access-r/

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1497d