Forum Topic

Catastrophic choice

So here's an idea.  Make a cycle lane which removes a bus lane.  So a bus that used to flow unencumbered down a dedicated bus lane can sit in traffic.  Last week I walked from the top of Netheravon road to Rocks lane and the I kept up with the bus all the way.  I nearly overtook it at points!  Why would I get on a bus now in Chiswick? I used to but not now.   By 2023 10% of London buses will be electric, by 2034 100%.   1 bus (Full!) takes 75 cars off the road.   If the bus offers no speed advantage I may as well sit in my car with my own music on while sitting in slow traffic.  How on earth can anyone justify removing the bus lane for a hand full of cyclists?   And before anyone pipes up.  It is a hand full of cyclists.  I walk on the high road daily and the cycle lane is barren but the buses are plentiful albeit back to back.  CRAZY!

Nik Solomon ● 1688d60 Comments

I agree with you, the removal of the bus lanes was just madness.

Michael David Rowe ● 1688d

Check Google Streetview and use the historic view to trace the route of the old bus lane.You might be surprised to see that West of Chiswick Lane the current cycle lane runs on the route of the old cycle lane and largely replaced parking until it gets to the stretch in front of the Old Market Place.(There's even less bus lane Eastbound.)You are quite right - 1 double decker bus can take 75 cars off the road.  A single decker takes up the space of 2 Land Rovers and can take 30-40 of them off the road.There's another thread on here about Fisher's Lane which has been turned into a priority North / South bus route, going past the Rocks Lane centre.  The same people who campaign to remove the cycle lane also want to remove this bus route despite its obvious and historic unsuitability for two way traffic and the delays it caused to buses as well as the danger and congestion it created for all road users. "CRAZY!" indeed!

Ed Saper ● 1688d

Completely agree. I have loved getting around London by bus since I arrived in London for uni many years ago - this option has now been ruined by the cycle lanes.

Tracy Jenkins ● 1688d

On your daily walks have you noticed that there is neither a cycle lane nor a bus lane between Chiswick Lane and Goldhawk Road because there are roadworks ongoing to build the original design of the cycle lane approved following consultation in Sep 2019? So the problem you are noticing = roadworks. Obviously roadworks for utilities and such-like are acceptable but roadworks to build a protected cycle lane. Nope. Beyond the pale.

Paul Campbell ● 1688d

I will look but the fact is what I say.  Buses used to be able to travel quicker than cars.  Whether or not the bus lane was in totality along the high road is a moot point.  There was enough bus lane to make it work, now there isn't and it doesn't work for people catching the bus.

Nik Solomon ● 1688d

Ed forgot to add that the short stretch of bus lane westbound on Chiswick High Road outside the Old Marketplace which didn't start again until past Waitrose, again for a very short stretch before giving way to two lanes for cars at the Acton Lane junction lights, was a free parking space for cars on Sundays and after 6pm on weekdays. Memories are short.

Paul Campbell ● 1688d

I use the cycle lane daily for local shopping and there really are just a handfull of others using it, sometimes even the odd car that has taken a wrong turn. The idea of getting everybody to cycle is fabulous but in reality people don't want to arrive at their workplace / meeting / evening out all sweaty and with their hair windswept. They don't want to have to change clothes / shoes when they get to their destination, especially in the cold and rain and wind. Others can't cycle and need to get the bus.Perhaps the answer will be electric bicycles but who knows? Until then we have to put up with an extremely badly laid out and dangerous High Road.

Chris Blackwell ● 1688d

Ed, FL , Unsuitability for two way traffic, according to you, but worked very well in my opinion. Now it’s a much needed, but lost route for motorists. Hardly used by cyclists, in my opinion. Are you listening to the cyclist’s  opinions on C9, I think not, it doesn’t suit your narrative

Maggie Dodge ● 1687d

Don't worry about the counting of people riding bikes Chris. That's being done professionally. Otherwise we'd have to rely on the personal testimonies of people based on their limited time and experiences on the High Road which may or may not coincide with peaks or troughs and which may or may not be be affected by cognitive biases especially in those who by now have a long track record of being against or for the cycle lane. Such as you and me respectively.2500 - 3000 journeys by bike per day before the recent roadworks in the official counts. 30% of vehicle numbers or thereabouts. Personally I'd call that more than a handful personally. I'd call it a meaningful mode of transport. But like I said I am obviously biased.

Paul Campbell ● 1687d

I'm sorry to say Nik that the entire premise of your original post is based on a deliberate deception.The people who say that the cycle lane replaced a bus lane the full length of Chiswick High Road, both East and Westbound, know that is a lie but repeat it and shout it regardless.  I believed it too - but I just couldn't square it with my recollection of being stuck on buses going Westbound and having to bail out of them and walk home.I was just as surprised as you will be when you check Streetview as to how badly you've been misled and how little bus lane has been replaced.Whether buses are slower is actually a moot point - that data is out there so you don't need to rely on the bald assertions of those with agendas (on either side).You called the cycle lane a "catastrophic choice" but during the pandemic, bus use dropped to as low as 10% capacity and everyone jumped in their cars and not enough onto their bikes.  With a dangerous respiratory disease, made worse by high levels of traffic related pollution, it was a sensible decision to put in a temporary cycle lane.Your original post talked out inefficient use of road space - well, you don't get much more efficient than a bicycle - particularly the people carrying cargo bikes or Chiswick Tractors as they're becoming known, especially when compared to its namesake, the Chelsea Tractor.If you remove the temporary lane its replacement is the permanent C9.  That was always going to go in.  Good parts of it are being built to the original specifications right now, and exist already along the route.You have been misled if you think the "choice" is between the temporary C9 and putting it back to the way it was (the old painted cycle lane, parking, a couple of bus stops and about 50m or so of bus lane between Chiswick Lane and Heathfield Terrace).  C9 is going in regardless because it forms an integral part of the London network.  Oh - and the temporary C9 has already proved itself with dramatic increases in the modal share of people cycling.  Once the extension opens up (parts of C9 are fairly impassible right now due to roadworks to widen the road), you will see more people cycling a bit more and driving a bit less, not because they are smug eco-warriors (most people don't know or care about this debate), but because for certain journeys it will be a faster and more convenient way to get from A to B.

Ed Saper ● 1687d

"You might be surprised to see that West of Chiswick Lane the current cycle lane runs on the route of the old cycle lane and largely replaced parking until it gets to the stretch in front of the Old Market Place"Except that it didn't.Single yellow, yes. Actual parking, no.

David Lesniak ● 1687d

Ed Saper suggested " Check Google Streetview and use the historic view to trace the route of the old bus lane.

You might be surprised to see that West of Chiswick Lane the current cycle lane runs on the route of the old cycle lane and largely replaced parking until it gets to the stretch in front of the Old Market Place." if you insist

July 2008

Aug 2014
July 2019 To repeat "and largely replaced parking"
michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1687d

I'm all for getting more people cycling safely but losing a bus lane isn't helping the majority of people.

Basil Finnis ● 1687d

Round by where you are, here's a photo of the old bike lane:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4928222,-0.2517401,3a,75y,271.91h,87.6t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-vYRI7b97Docpri6BPC9iw!2e0!5s20180401T000000!7i13312!8i6656Here's some "actual parking":https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4928663,-0.2527838,3a,75y,212.41h,88.63t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sENgXH81w6svtBPhv_J51QA!2e0!5s20190701T000000!7i16384!8i8192Here's some double yellow and more bike lane:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4927155,-0.2544474,3a,75y,234.91h,81.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5-h7-ceG7vMbWB80pIA_Og!2e0!5s20180401T000000!7i13312!8i6656I invited the OP to check for himself on Streetview to see the lack of the one or two (East / West) bus lanes he clearly believed ran along most / all of CHR.

Ed Saper ● 1687d

Our posts crossed Michael and I replied to David.Thank you for actually checking Streetview - you at least showed some independence of thought and won't be told what to think by me or anyone else.I do note that your photos don't show a bus lane and mostly seem to show a bike lane (although with a single yellow, you'd usually find cars and vehicles unloading or parked throughout the day during controlled hours and certainly outside them).So the "catastrophic choice" to put in a bike lane doesn't appear to have as much of an impact on cars as I suggested, nor has it replaced the bus lanes the OP thought were there.

Ed Saper ● 1687d

EdI have just checked some street views.  I scrolled all the way from Netheravon road in the east to chiswick roundabout and a bus lane used to cover the majority of the route. Are you looking at chiswick london or chiswick australia?

Nik Solomon ● 1687d

Ed says to Michael “you at least showed some independence of thought and won't be told what to think by me or anyone else.” I think that’s not unique. The cycle lobby just won’t listen to anybody unless they agree with them

Maggie Dodge ● 1687d

The cycle lane doesn't go past Heathfield Terrace and certainly doesn't make it all the way to Chiswick roundabout.So it couldn't have replaced a bus lane on that part.Instead, the C9 route goes down Wellesley ("a quietway") and then picks up C9 after the roundabout.  I'm not as well informed as some, but aren't there roadworks at the moment to increase provision for buses around Netheravon Road?  I'm not sure if they are for East or West.I think there's a Chiswick in Boston as well! 

Ed Saper ● 1687d

I know this is probably going to be unpopular but... isn't the problem about cars, rather than bike lanes? If there weren't that many cars on the road (the vast majority occupied solely by their driver) then, dare I say it, there'd be a lot less congestion.There's plenty of data to prove that there are a lot of short journeys made by car; and plenty of data to show that wealth and car ownership go hand in hand. See this one from the Mayor of London: https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/health_impact_of_cars_in_london-sept_2015_final_0.pdfthat found car ownership rate at >80% for households with yearly income above £75k, or how a third (!) of journeys are less than 2km in length. I know some will say that there are people with reduced mobility who rely on cars to get around, and in my opinion their right to movement should be sacrosanct. But if we were to reduce those 2-km journey just by a third... wouldn't we all be better off?

Francis Sheehan ● 1687d

Frances it might not be unpopular with the cycle lobby, but really it’s been done to death.  I went to Hammersmith today. Wanted to go by train but I’ve damaged my knees when exercising, don’t laugh, and couldn’t make the stairs at Chiswick Park Took the bus but it wasn’t a pleasant experience.  So much money found for cycle lanes,  when the need for lifts at stations has been ongoing for years. There are just so many reasons why people are single occupancy in cars. Why do you think cyclist don’t go to work on a tandem ? Tradesmen being a big number. Retired people like me babysitting, or shopping at places difficult to get to by PT. Should I not go unless I can take a friend, which of course I do when appropriate. How is this data of people doing short journeys collected, always mistifies me. Not sure that I’m being tracked am I?

Maggie Dodge ● 1687d

All 100% logical.However never underestimate how many of those vehicles are not occupied by lazy people making unnecessary journeys but are there because they need to be. The real change that has affected volumes of traffic (Covid aside) is the explosion in the numbers of private hire and delivery vehicles many of which are ordinary cars. Uber and the stratospheric growth in online shopping have put on the roads tens of thousands of additional vehicles and losing road-space to cycle lanes is bound to provoke a reaction. Millions of people rely on the use of motorised vehicles to go about their daily lives. How the government deals with this is a major issue.

Bruce Hammal ● 1687d

I wonder if Nik can remember or can see on StreetView where the bus gate was on Chiswick High Road near Netheravon Road. What happened after the bus gate? Two lanes for cars, a left filter to Chiswick Lane and a straight-on to Chiswick High Road. No bus lane until after Devonshire Road. And then what about after Linden Gardens - no bus lane until after Heathfield Terrace.  And that one small stretch of bus lane was only operational to 6pm every evening and not at all on Sundays. I'm sure lots of people complaining about the cycle lane impeding buses were campaigning for years about parked cars blocking buses on the one small stretch of bus lane between Airedale and Heatjfield Terrace (namely the stretch between Devonshire Road and Linden Gardens opposite the old marketplace) but I haven't been able to find any evidence of it at all.

Paul Campbell ● 1687d

Yes I suspect some people would have a boiled egg and soldiers delivered these days.

Michael David Rowe ● 1687d

You miss the point Nic.That's what they want.It will be music to people like Paul Campbells ears that you can walk faster than a bus.They don't care about people who cant walk or cycle.They just want to to make it a nightmare to travel anywhere by motorised transport.Screw you if you have no choice.That's the problem with evangelists

Richard Potts ● 1687d

With Boris about to cancel ALL Covid restrictions in the near future, purely to gain favour with his backbenchers, you will soon be legally permitted to travel and mingle and spread the virus when you have tested positive. No need to self isolate or consider your fellow citizens. Boris doesn’t care if people die if it means he can cling on to a few more months in Downing Street.  This new freedom of movement means you risk your health and, possibly your life, if you travel on public transport. I believe most sensible people will revert to using their cars as much as possible rather than risk catching the virus on buses and trains.

Steve Taylor ● 1687d

“ It is a hand full of cyclists.  I walk on the high road daily and the cycle lane is barren but the buses are plentiful albeit back to back.  CRAZY!”Totally agree.

Steve Taylor ● 1687d

On Twitter today “empty cycle lanes prove their working “. I’llleave that with you

Maggie Dodge ● 1687d

"largely replaced parking"Ed, thanks so much for your evidence which clearly debase your own claims. Somehow the removal - or should I say displacement but I'm feeling generous so I'll give you a freebie - removal of 3 parking spaces qualifies as "largely replaced parking" but that's just me adhering to old maths, not the new maths of people like yourself.

David Lesniak ● 1687d

Where’s the bus lane David?

Ed Saper ● 1687d

Yes. Anybody who refuses to join in the fantasising about a bus lane that never existed is a MONSTER!

Paul Campbell ● 1687d

"Don't worry about the counting of people riding bikes Chris. That's being done professionally."Are those professionals counting cyclists using pavements rather than tC9  ?That would be really useful data

Loraine Pemberton ● 1687d

"Two lanes for cars, a left filter to Chiswick Lane"I think you've only help my point.  TWO Lanes for cars, it was actually two lanes for BUSES and CARS.  Now there is one.  So now get the same amount of traffic and squeeze it into one lane, oh look surprise surprise gridlock.  Add in the fact the lights only stay on green for a while, before you could get the left turners going left and the straight ons flowing.  Now you get half the traffic through the lights because there is only one lane. Also they have removed many places where buses could pull into to pick up and drop off.  Now every car and bus has to wait behind them.  So my original point I was making is bus travel East to west from Netheravon (or starting further up king street) to the west is MUCH MUCH slower.  Does anyone really want to argue against that point? really?

Nik Solomon ● 1687d

You see those roadworks that you walk past daily Nik? Do you know what they are for? They are reinstating the left filter lane so there will be two lanes for BUSES and CARS as you put it. Good that one person has given up on the bus lane fantasy though.

Paul Campbell ● 1687d

“ Are those professionals counting cyclists using pavements rather than tC9  ?”Nope! They aren’t even counting the very few using the cycle lanes.  They just pump out fictitious stats which nobody but an imbecile would believe.  I walked the length of Kew Road to Richmond and back yesterday and saw only four cyclists, one of whom was using the road instead of the expensive , segregated with bollards, cycle lane. Although to be fair he may have been a total lunatic because he was screaming obscenities, seemingly at nobody in particular! On the other hand he may have just been your typical, angry cyclist screaming at his wife on the phone!

Steve Taylor ● 1686d

I've been travelling on buses for the last 18 months and I haven't caught COVID. There is now more of a risk to health from everyone getting into their cars and creating lots of extra pollution than there is from people using public transport. Just leave the available road space to those who really need to use it, trades people, people with mobility issues or disabilities, those who aren't served well by public transport etc., and stop encouraging everyone else to be so selfish and to think only of themselves.

Andrew Jones ● 1686d

I used to take this pretty regularly - pointless now as takes forever, so it's either the tube, walk or cycle. Maybe that was the plan. If so it's succeeded. Cycling would be better if it weren't for the imbeciles who regularly steal wheels, saddles, pannier racks, you name it. I'm going to need the rustiest of ugly old bikes for local use.

James Tickell ● 1686d

Where the bus lane which ran pretty much the whole distance East of Latymer Upper school to the Goldhawk Road junction with King Street, has been removed?

Mark Perry ● 1686d

Sorry, Ed. You were talking about parking largely being taken up and then proceeded to post your evidence two thirds of which refuted your claim.As for the bus lane, seems everyone is discussing the bus lane between King Street and Chiswick Lane. Then there wasn't one and then it popped up again outside The George. And as someone just pointed out, there is no more bus lane in Hammersmith. So not really sure what the start/stop bus lane is supposed to do. Personally I find them a waste of space as they could be used by other vehicles as opposed to seeing them unused with a tail back in the adjacent lane. But that's how it is in this country. You like a line. You hate to entertain anything that might reduce that line. Except now they are mitigating the sh*t show a bit between King Street and the Lane.

David Lesniak ● 1686d

"I've been travelling on buses for the last 18 months and I haven't caught COVID"Duh!!!  That's because 'most' people have been wearing masks on public transport and have been self isolating when they have Covid. Under Boris's new open rules (to suck up to his rebel backbenchers) nobody will be required to wear a mask and nobody with Covid will be required to self isolate for even a day. You are lucky that you haven't caught Covid to date but the elderly and more vulnerable will certainly have the risks increased on public transport and may even die. It is therefore extremely selfish, and irresponsible, to encourage people to use public transport instead of their cars. Hence I encourage those people to think of others and use their cars rather than spread the virus and inundate the NHS again. Don't forget that the NHS now cannot catch up with routine operations until at least 2024/2025 so the Covid spreaders are using valuable NHS resources which is 'criminal'.Pollution is a minor consideration when you have an ongoing pandemic and the reduction of pollution on this tiny island will have little effect on climate change when you consider all the pollution caused by USA, China,India, Australia, Canada Eastern Europe and South East Asia.Use your cars folks and stop the spread of virus!  Your car is your safe space!  Enjoy it while you can!

Steve Taylor ● 1686d

"On Twitter today “empty cycle lanes prove their working “. I’ll leave that with you"Indeed, empty cycle lanes everywhere.

Steve Taylor ● 1686d

"...you don't get much more efficient than a bicycle..."I know that cyclists are fond of creative statistics (100% increase in cycling - from 1% of the population to 2% is one of my favourites) but this surely stretches any credible definition of efficiency to breaking point.I agree that it is not a choice between the "temporary" lane, CS9 and any other predecessor.The obvious choice is to make testing, insurance, registration and identification for cyclists mandatory, make it a criminal offence to ride anywhere other than on a private land with permission or a designated public highway and then cyclists can share the road with other users without needing feather bedding. It would also have the added benefit of returning the pavements, towpaths and parks and green spaces back to safe pedestrian use. We could always add an additional cycling levy to pay for the establishment and removal of these unused, mostly unloved and downright dangerous schemes for which we are all paying a heavy price.

Charlotte Kasner ● 1686d

Masks are still going to be mandatory on buses in London for some time, so you will still have to wear them, and Boris's new rules will make little difference because as you well know, some people didn't wear them even when it was illegal to not wear a mask on a bus.I've also been in plenty of places, been pinged numerous times and still didn't catch covid.Ironically, I do know someone who was taking his son to a drive through covid test centre as his son had had a positive LFT test, his son sneezed, and everyone in the car subsequently tested positive for Sars-Cov2. So cars aren't always the safe space you think they are.

Andrew Jones ● 1686d

Yes Steve and this morning at 9.30 both ways outside Sainsburys up and down the High road, cars  and buses were at a standstill- what a complete failure these cycle lanes are !! I am sure I won't be popular but because the cars and buses were standing- spewing out their exhausts I am just wondering who in the council are really using their brains?

Helen Bamberger ● 1686d

“ I am just wondering who in the council are really using their brains”Unfortunately all the decent people in the Council are not allowed to use their brains. They have to follow the orders of a handful who will stop at nothing to further their miserable political careers. It’s what happens under despotic rule where democracy is  despised.

Steve Taylor ● 1686d

I am in my late seventies and walk everywhere in Chiswick; the cycle lanes have been dreadful for me. Crossing the High Road is much more dangerous; the cars and buses in the High Road will often stop and let you cross, but the cyclists can't be bothered. They ignore me and just power on. Michael Preece

Michael Preece ● 1686d

Michael, I wonder if you could contact Will  Norman. He’s London’s Walking and Cycling Commissioner. He’s paid a huge sum to ensure you can walk safely on London’s streets. Slight issue with him also being an avid cyclist but he should be there for you too

Maggie Dodge ● 1686d

Indeed. Ask him why Richmond High Road is so safe for pedestrians with NO cycle lanes and bus lanes and why CHR is so incredibly dangerous for pedestrians purely because of the cycle lanes and island bus stops. “ The people of Richmond have been praised for making it Britain’s best borough despite decades of poor investment from Westminster.The borough has come top of a number of health and lifestyle measures which are being used by the government as part of its so-called ‘levelling up’ plans.Richmond upon Thames was best across 350 local authority areas for children’s health and education, male life expectancy and economic productivity.”

Steve Taylor ● 1686d

Has the situation on Chiswick Mall improved with less building work or are there still a tremendous number of people walking down this narrow road with narrow or onl on one side pavement?

Philippa Bond ● 1685d

"I am in my late seventies the cycle lanes have been dreadful for me. Crossing the High Road is much more dangerous;"Not only for folk in their 70's. It's dangerous for us young folk too!  Not to mention children!

Steve Taylor ● 1685d

One stressful aspect for pedestrians on CHR is the increased clutter and complexity of the new road layout, with cycles coming from unexpected directions, difficult to predict traffic light patterns, bus islands with no shelters, and, perversely, our wide pavements that attract cycles and scooters. I don't think you see many cyclists trying to use the narrow, crowded pavements in the shopping streets of Richmond.

Peter Evans ● 1685d

I agree, Peter. Maybe I would't be so stressed if I were younger, but CHR post-cycleway isn't a pedestrian-friendly environment.

Robert Fish ● 1685d

"I don't think you see many cyclists trying to use the narrow, crowded pavements in the shopping streets of Richmond."You are correct. I have never ever seen a cyclist on the Richmond High Street (St Georges Road) pavements. It's a  brilliant place to shop or eat or.... Come to think of it I have never seen an e-scooter there either.

Steve Taylor ● 1685d

At last a comment that speaks total common sense. They have ruined Chiswick high road. To add to the insanity cyclists continue to use the other side of the road rather than using the 2 lane cycle way hence clogging up what little of the road is left for the buses and cars 🙄 with so much of the road now given to cyclist priority perhaps they could be made to pay for proper compulsory  insurance and road tax

James Brand ● 1683d

Totally agree with you. If I have to sit on a bus at snails pace would rather sit in my own space in a car particularly at school coming out time when some buses are a nightmare!

Elizabeth Price ● 1683d

Totally agree with you. If I have to sit on a bus at snails pace would rather sit in my own space in a car particularly at school coming out time when some buses are a nightmare!

Elizabeth Price ● 1683d

“ To add to the insanity cyclists continue to use the other side of the road rather than using the 2 lane cycle way hence clogging up what little of the road is left for the buses and cars 🙄”That’s why those morons are the most despised species on the planet. Like  cockroaches and locusts, they are everywhere!

Steve Taylor ● 1683d

You would have done well in Rwanda Steve.

Andrew Jones ● 1683d

Interesting article in The Times this morning re e-scooters.Germany requires they be registered and with number plates. Only a matter of time.https://apple.news/AH7wg-MEvT7qphHuYjn-upA

David Lesniak ● 1683d

I've always found it a good reason to get off and walk and see if I can beat the bus!

Philippa Bond ● 1683d

Turned right out of TGT on to the High Road last night, in the dark, for the first time I think. I was prepared for the cycle lane of course, but is there any warning for non locals. It’s a bizarre  situation to find yourself in

Maggie Dodge ● 1683d