Forum Topic

Wasted £8.7billion

Is there anybody else who can hardly bear to read the report on the £8.7billion wasted on PPE? How on earth did that happen?

Anne England ● 1694d68 Comments

Similarly the con on 'bounce-back loans'.

Vanessa Smith ● 1694d

Wasn't there also £37B spaffed on a useless track and trace system? Funny how national insurance now has to be increased to pay for a £12B injection of funds into the NHS, but more than 3x that amount was found down the back of the sofa to waste on that folly.

Keith Iddon ● 1694d

Ms England - it's time you woke up to the fact that a large part of the entire covid operation was to create large debt for the nation. £400b and the destruction of society over a mild bio-weapon that affects few people? You really are stupid.

Michael Brown ● 1694d

"..a mild bio-weapon that affects few people.."Apart from the 157,000 who have died from it, you mean ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1694d

But Keith - we have no need to worry about the NHS - surely as Bozo promised there is £350M a week coming now we've left the EU, so why does NI have to go up at all?

Vanessa Smith ● 1694d

It is beyond worrying that it is taking (many) people far...too....long to realise. We really are doomed.

Elle Jones ● 1694d

The NI increase will cover their corruption and incompetence.

Paul Scullion ● 1694d

If only 'foresight' was as easy as 'hindsight'...

Loraine Pemberton ● 1694d

I will grant you a few marks for seeming to admit that not all of 'the entire covid (sic) operation' was 'to create large debt for the nation' and 'the destruction of society'. Perhaps you could enlarge on the part which didn't serve such a purpose.

Anne England ● 1694d

It's as if Boris is in the room.

Paul Scullion ● 1694d

Nothing Vanessa !

Helen Bamberger ● 1694d

Sorry- wrong thread.

Helen Bamberger ● 1694d

There are Risk Assessments that Govts carry out so as to be prepared for what was an expected sometime pandemic.  The constant cutting of costs appears to have included not making sensible provision for an up to date stock of PPE and by allowing what was there to run out of date so when the Coronavirus reached us we were left so vulnerable that the public were told not to wear medical masks so as to allow them to be used by medical staff who were dealing with so many sick patients.  Operation Cygnus  in 2016 should have shown up and thrown up actions that needed to be taken.What's the point of Risk Assessments if you don't take action?

Philippa Bond ● 1694d

Increase NI for the NHS, why? I thought the bus told us there could be £1.4 billion going into to the NHS a month after Brexit! So where did that go?

Nicholas Beard ● 1694d

Philippa, think that proves that you cannot be fully prepared for a pandemicas things deteriorate over time.

Janice Evans ● 1694d

You manage your turnover of stock so it doesn't deteriorate just as would be done with anything else anywhere else.  You don't solely rely on just-in-time delivery from across the world because it is cheap because there are so many things that can go wrong en route.  You maintain good relations and knowledge with more local suppliers and you certainly don't turn away/ignore manufacturers locally offering services.  A totally unnecessary gamble with absolutely everyone's lives -  but particularly those who are ill and those dedicated to looking after them who are put at most risk.

Philippa Bond ● 1694d

Philippa, in an ideal world, or would that much stock be allowed, it wasan emergency.

Janice Evans ● 1693d

No, it was an elementary failure.Not helped by having a health services with 100,000 vacancies and the lowest bed per person ratio in Europe. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-52440641and it won't just be documented by the BBC

Philippa Bond ● 1693d

And the problems caused by contracting out and losing control:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_%26_Minor

Philippa Bond ● 1693d

Philippa, some think they won the fight re: Covid, but it's not over yet.

Janice Evans ● 1692d

Look what has happened to those who are much less well off for hospital care than we are after letting in just one flight:https://time.com/6143260/covid-19-pacific-islands-kiribati/ https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/pacific-island-nation-of-kiribati-goes-into-first-lockdown-after-covid-flight-cases-b978206.html

Philippa Bond ● 1692d

MILLIONS to newly set up companies with which had no experience of what they were doing and no track record while turning down offers from established UK companies with experience.Meanwhile we had architects and designers and others including school departments with 3D printers making visors and sending them to hospitals all over the UK much of which was crowd funded by the British public.Here is what happened at The Scrubbery where thousands and thousands of scrubs were sewn for hospital and other health service staff together with other support given:https://www.thescrubbery.org/our-work

Philippa Bond ● 1691d

Sounds as if we should just get rid of the government and do it all ourselves much better

Vivienne Cox ● 1691d

yeah, and make our own vaccine,

Janice Evans ● 1691d

Some of the comments on this thread are ridiculous, this was a pandemic the first in 100 years, no hospital would have supplies for such an event. No care home 80% of which are private had no level of protection for a bad flu season let alone for a fatal pandemic disease. It’s very easy to be wise after the event but also very naive to pass judgement when you have no idea what the issues were. Was money wasted for sure but anybody in the same situation would have tried their best to do whatever was necessary to protect people, time was not  on their side, every country had the same issue. Please show a little respect for those who were battling away to find the answers, because I am pretty confident everyone on this thread was!

Jayne Thorburn ● 1691d

Yes Jayne, an expected sometime pandemic.  It wasn't quite what was expected but was still a pandemic and the country was woefully underprepared. That's why Exercises like Cygnus and Willow are run.  If you paid more attention to what was happening around the world you mightn't have been so surprised either.  Or perhaps you weren't and are just trying to shut me down again?Gradually more information is surfacing. Even so - starving the NHS of money and a 100,000 staffing shortage is not the best place to start or what seems like a very messy selling off of a storage facility for PPE.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/22/official-report-exercise-cygnus-uk-was-not-prepared-for-pandemic-is-published https://www.ft.com/content/bba3cfef-01eb-4a9b-ac40-e097a55956faWe were warned by our friends and colleagues overseas, our scientists were working on vaccines and we watched in horror as this pandemic kept coming towards us.  Govt should have been more prepared so we could have been more prepared.  We still don't have enough staff in our health service and our overworked health staff are still overworked and suffering from burn out.

Philippa Bond ● 1691d

Sad really that people on here are still trying to defend this shower in government.

Basil Finnis ● 1691d

Yes Basil - things really would have been so much better if we had only voted for Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott when we had the chance.

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 1691d

"trying to defend" It is about understanding the situation of the past Given the headlines for lack of PPE to what they are now and the huge issues in getting PPE on a large scale in that first lockdown where the only planes coming in were from china with PPE while we were only allowed a walk once a day for exercise. It's a joke about money and spending it,, it was not a time to work out things., It was a widespread pandemic. Headlines today don't work with headlines of the past. When In a panic, you try anything and everythingHere is a good idea for those who read today's headlines Watch Peston back in the first lockdown on lack of PPE and watch him now on the wasted money on PPE He is a joke along with others. You would never know we were closed for business back then, all was good, all you needed was to ring Joe and get some PPE sent over on a moped

Julian Pavey ● 1691d

You're still not addressing the lack of preparedness and the fragmentation of  systems.

Philippa Bond ● 1691d

Yes, imagine not having a crook in charge?Would of expected a stupid remark like that from you.

Basil Finnis ● 1691d

`Most of the comments on this thread are clearly made by people who have never had to deal with an emeergency issue. It can be very difficult with a new medical problem, when you know little about the disease issues. This happened in the early days of AIDS. COVid-19 was (is) a virus new the UK, which we have never met before and we have to learn;  learning involves some experimentation, which can lead to some delays in finding the best solution, but I think we are now getting there.
Michael Preece, Protessor of Child Health and Growth. Great Ormond Street Hospital

Michael Preece ● 1691d

It's all a scam, Preece, as you well know.

Michael Brown ● 1691d

1.25% increase in April won’t even touch the sides of the money that is really needed if everyone wants a free health service and improved social care system. Given the speed of technology the whole system needs a massive overhaul and no government regardless of colour is prepared to do it. It’s too sensitive to touch. The scale of the covid pandemic was such that no government could be prepared. They can run exercises but until we understand the details of a specific disease no one can prepare for everything. There were thousands of people with zero political biases that were involved in the covid pandemic. Please show a little more respect to all those people because it wasn’t you in the situation. Backseat drivers, if only you knew what it is a really like being on the frontline of any decision.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1690d

All what people?  All those who don't want to pay any tax?  All those who want to privatise the NHS and starve it of funds?What about showing a little more respect for all those who were working very long hours trying to deal with a pandemic without enough PPE and without knowing which patients had it and which didn't?

Philippa Bond ● 1690d

If you think the government handled the pandemic think again, they made decisions thousands of people not attached to government had to deliver. Government was not responsible for PPE stock before the pandemic hospital trusts and care homes were. You should research health care systems from around the world not one is fully funded by tax payers for the simple reason they can’t afford it. We need a grown up conversation how do we bring the system up to the standard everyone wants. I give you one clue raising taxes isn’t the answer.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1690d

Jayne, could you clarify your views on tax?  You say ‘tax isn’t the answer’ but are you saying the NHS shouldn’t be funded by tax at all?  If not, then how should it be funded and how much tax should people pay, and what are your views on progressive taxation?  Or are you basically a Thatcherite free-marketeer, a follower of Milton Friedman, Hayek, Ayn Rand etc?  More generally, assuming you accept that there is some role for the state and taxation, what sort of things do you think should or should not be funded by taxation?  Thanks.

Alastair Banton ● 1690d

I think Jayne means the NHS needs to be sold off.

Stewart Jones ● 1690d

Maybe, but let’s see what she says.

Alastair Banton ● 1690d

I Should have said just tax, we will never develop an efficient and productive NHS for everyone by tax alone. There has to be some form of private investment and yes some treatments paid for or part funded. There are no easy answers but until we can have a grown up conversation taking emotion out and working through what we would all like as a standard service including social care we can’t keep flogging a system that was setup after WW2. Life has moved on, technology & science has advanced, population growth, advanced treatments like knee/hip replacement, people living longer. The old NHS just can’t cope and never will without real structural and funding change.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1690d

Why not through tax? We can amazingly find billions for private companies during a pandemic It’s ultimately a choice. A lot has been flogged off already. And there is so much money to be made for shareholders. The Tories, who have been in power for twelve years,  have deliberately underfunded the NHS so that it’s on its knees. And they chose to ignore advice about how to be best placed to deal with a predicted pandemic.

Stewart Jones ● 1690d

Well put Stewart. Though they're too cowardly to actually come out and say that's what they want. An American health care system so they and their friends in the Atlantic Bridge can make cash.

Basil Finnis ● 1690d

So boring hardly a grown up conversation and I think you will find we are putting in billions more, it’s just too big, inefficient and unproductive. Nothing happens at the weekends yet billions of pounds worth of kit just sits idol whilst patient list grow that’s hardly the best service for patients.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1690d

"american health care system" Was wondering when that old chesnut would crack out Did Not take long

Julian Pavey ● 1690d

I know Julian, they clearly have no vision of what we could do, improve patient outcomes much faster but not everything can be free it just hasn’t worked for decades and no amount of tax payers money will fix that and why should it! No other country funds health care solely through tax payers to my knowledge? So just maybe there is a reason for that??

Jayne Thorburn ● 1690d

Its pretty clear not that i have the answer that the NHS as it stand now is not fit under general taxation and NICs. It most likely stopped working by the turn of the mellennium if not earlier. A radical overhaul is needed from top to bottom

Julian Pavey ● 1690d

If people were paid properly, and most of the profits of the companies they work for were not just sent off to shareholders, there would be a better prospect of extra tax to pay for what the majority of people want: such as a good NHS.

Vivienne Cox ● 1690d

You are living in Lala land that’s another chestnut that gets wheeled out. This country is pretty good at collecting tax from the majority of people and companies. We are highly taxed if you add them all up, stamp duty, inheritance, corp etc, global companies are really hard to attack as one country, every country they operate has the same challenge. Let’s not forget the investment and huge numbers of staff that they employ many on excellent salaries. Unless we face up to the reality that the NHS needs a massive overhaul we will be having the same conversation in 10 years, 20 years time. Given all the challenges it faces the NHS does an excellent job out it could be so much better. The pandemic has exposed it’s vulnerability, waiting list at an all time high patients deserve better.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1690d

Absolute rubbish, Jayne. The main problem is inadequate funding. Read the ONS's analysis of UK healthcare spending relative to other countries: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29Of course, you don't want to recognise that fact, because to remedy it might result in your having to pay more tax. Heaven forfend! You also prefer to blame the inefficiency of staff, "many on excellent salaries" rather than acknowledge that the NHS's problems are rooted in the penny-pinching small state nostrums of the administration that has been in power now for nearly 12 years. The problem is compounded by the inefficiency of the internal market which the Thatcher government introduced. This is what the BMA says about it: "The internal market has resulted in high regulatory and transaction costs, health service fragmentation and bureaucracy, and opening the door to privatisation. Yet it has not demonstrably improved NHS performance and has thus not worked in its own terms."

Robert Fish ● 1690d

Incidentally I question your statement that we're highly taxed. At 33% of GDP the UK tax take is lower than the OECD average, and much lower than in almost any other European country.

Robert Fish ● 1690d

Jayne immediately trots out the argument that selling off the NHS is the grown up thing to do and  that people who defend the NHS are deluded and are like children who won’t give up their toys. The truth is there are people eager for the NHS to fail do that they can make billions from it. It’s about making money for shareholders not about care. Be grown up and admit that at least.

Stewart Jones ● 1690d

In her arguments against simply investing more in the NHS she makes a false claim and uses a false premise. She claims the NHS is very inefficient. In fact, compared to many other countries health systems it is highly efficient. She claims that one can’t simply raise taxes to support the NHS. In fact, you clearly can. You can also collect more tax - see thread about the decade the rich won. All that gains in asset value can be taxed. Plus, given the billions spent on so many things it is obvious that spending on the NHS is simply about preference, not absolute impossibility. Jayne prefers not to, that is clear.

Alan Clark ● 1689d

Not as much as might happens at weekends, it's true but it's not true that 'nothing happens at the weekends'. I have to visit Ashford Eye Hospital every six months and my appointment is often on a Saturday. Likewise, about four years ago I had a CT scan at West Middlesex on a Saturday. This was part of an on-going investigation and not emergency treatment. Also, if I remember correctly, a friend recently had cataract surgery on a Saturday. I suppose part of the reason a lot of the equipment lies idle is lack of staff.

Anne England ● 1689d

Don’t put your own interpretation or spin on what I said, I made no references to selling it off, purely stated that we need to find other ways to fund the NHS another than just tax…..this could be a contribution towards some procedures,  use the theatres 7 days a week, better release options so reduce bed blocking. There are many ways to improve the NHS just requires more creative thinking. I would have no issue contributing  to some procedures. the french system requires a 30% contribution for many procedures and people have insurance to cover it which is normally provided via employers.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1689d

'Twas ever thus, Anne.Do you remember the Labour Government's Ground Nut scheme just after WW2, when they planted 25 million acres of land in Tanganyika (now Tanzania) with monkey nuts, for processing into margarine to feed us starving, rationed Brits?At a cost of £2-billlion in  today's money, the scheme failed because the local chimps were even hungrier than us. They scoffed the lot at their tea parties, and we were reduced to spreading dripping on out toast,The other day a Govt Minister was on the airwaves talking about spending "Government Money"It's NOT the Government's money. IT'S OURS!

Roger Talbot ● 1689d

"..we were reduced to spreading dripping on our toast"When I was growing up we used to regard dripping toast as a treat.

Richard Greenhough ● 1689d

"..most of the profits of the companies they work for were not just sent off to shareholders.."Many of those shareholders are the funds that look after people's pensions.

Richard Greenhough ● 1689d

With a light sprinkling of salt. Scrumptious, especially when you got the jelly at the bottom of the dripping jar.

Robert Fish ● 1689d

"I would have no issue contributing to some procedures". Good for you, Jayne, but what about those less fortunate than you? Is it the case that you object to contributing to other people's health care, or have you bought into the private better than public myth? What is your take on this conclusion of the US Institute of Medicine (from 2012): "30 cents of every medical dollar goes to unnecessary healthcare, deceitful paperwork, fraud and other waste. The $750 billion in annual waste is more than the Pentagon budget and more than enough to care for every American who lacks health insurance"? Ah, the magic of the market - if only we trusted it, the efficiency savings would be enormous!

Robert Fish ● 1689d

I have been waiting for treatment for cataracts for a year, now. It is a NHS treatment provided by a US company chaired by an ex-Tory MP.The shit Richard Branson also has a slice of the NHS. Imagine waking up from surgery and seeing that bearded little turd sharing a photo opportunity with you.

Roger Talbot ● 1689d

My father told me about asking his mother for a 'piece' a.k.a. dripping on toast.

Anne England ● 1689d

Offshore funds?  Look after is rather strong.

Philippa Bond ● 1689d

Which people's pensions?  Only about half of pensioners have private pensions.As for Windfall Tax.  Energy companies may have not made a lot of profit last year but what about the all the taxes they already don't pay?  Something like 35m in the case of BP.  It seems there are special deals for some.

Philippa Bond ● 1677d

They paid no UK tax, at all. Then got 200+ million tax relief on the tax they never paid, to decomisiom the North Sea rigs.Amazing that no one really seems to mind the UK citizens being screwed into the ground with costs.

Basil Finnis ● 1677d

One wonders why the opposition do not put this on posters all around the country.  Are we not supposed to know?  Not Led by Donkeys, led by swindlers and thieves.

Vivienne Cox ● 1677d

Probably because they would never have had that much to spend on it in the first place.

Janice Evans ● 1676d

"Wasted"?  Or "Invested".By this apparently industrial scale palm greasing, the Conservative party has assured itself of bountiful political donations and "revolving door" sinecures for ex-ministers for years to come.In short, this level of misuse of public funds could hardly have been accidental.

T P Howell ● 1676d

Seems just like a PR front for wealthy people

Philippa Bond ● 1676d