Forum Topic

Chiswick Markets

The flower market and the cheese market have been fantastic successes, drawing a great footfall onto the High Road. I wish them continued success. It's great to see the High Road so busy on a Sunday.

Carl Wynne ● 1705d182 Comments

Always thought the Flower Market would do very well it's a shame thatCovid struck around the time of the initial opening which set things back a little.  I'm sure the Cheese Market is equally as good although I don't eatcheese but my partner buys from them when they are there.

Janice Evans ● 1705d

They are brilliant. Sour grapes aired at the CAF from the usual suspects this week just reinforced how brilliant they are.

Paul Campbell ● 1705d

No sour grapes, Campy.Ask yourself why stores and venues are closed on Sunday. Some right on Devonshire Road, in fact. Some on that map that only lives on the Flower Market website, and some that don't make the cut. Then while you're at it, have a chat with the gals at Parle Pantry if you'd like the real story. Karen seems to use them as an example so I thought a fact check might come in handy. But there have been so many over the years and they always lead to the same point somewhere south of Karen's representations. No surprise there.For added perspective between Parle and us we've traded at markets like this for 30 years. Karen's been at it for one. We know both sides of the equation and have also worked with organizers who, how shall we say, often inflate the truth for their own gain. Let us know when facts matter.Do carry on, though.

David Lesniak ● 1705d

Cheese is the work of Satan, but both that market and the flower market seem to be selling high quality products and seem to have a nice vibe and be a good addition to Chiswick.  However, they should scrap (pun intended) the 'antique' market. Most of that stuff looks like it has come out of a skip and the whole thing doesn't justify using up parking spaces. 

Rob Reynolds ● 1705d

Can I clarify - Parle Pantry has closed on Sundays, specifically when the Flower Market is on, because there's no footfall?I'm surprised if that's the case because one would expect the substantial extra footfall created by the flower market to increase trade at nearby hospitality businesses.  I would expect the same from the Cheese Market also (because people aren't just going to eat cheese for lunch), but a lesser positive impact as it has less visitors I think.Which other hospitality venues are closing on Sunday specifically because of the Flower Market (and not because of COVID, staff shortages or the other reasons prevalent before Xmas)?

Ed Saper ● 1705d

David, I've just talked to Parlé Pantry and they told me they're opening tomorrow at 8am and that they're open every Sunday - so I'm going to visit them tomorrow for the first time!I'll ask them if they plan to close for the Flower Market - the lady on the phone was insistent they don't close at all on Sundays and their opening hours are longer than what's on their website.

Ed Saper ● 1705d

Thats good to hear Ed,  after watching the CAF I too wondered about this.  On the whole the markets have been amazing publicity for Chiswick and reported on different media outlets bringing in visitors from all over.  Market have not done Notting Hill, Brixton or Greenwich any harm pretty sure that is the same with chiswick.

Matthew Swain ● 1705d

Long shot, but any stalls selling carnivores in the flower market?

Russell Pearson ● 1705d

No, Parle Pantry is open every day. Glad this post sent some enquiries their way.Angie's is closed on Sunday. La Trompette and Villa di Geggiano closed for the entire month of January. They all opted to forego Sunday trade. While there are many factors, they have decided Sunday is expendable. Ditto the Devonshire Road retailers that are closed on Sunday. So multiple venues and sectors making the decision Sunday trade is not worth it for them any longer.I know many folks think that independent business owners don't analyze these things and that it's best to tell them what to do because, let's be honest, we're all idiots. But at the end of the day when you weigh the pros and cons and opt to deploy staff where they're needed most, Sunday is coming up short. As a businessman, Ed, I'm sure you'd understand that equation. One would expect extra footfall to increase trade. But that isn't always the case. But, as mentioned previously, our collective 30 year history doing markets Parle and OT can tell you, market promoters talk a good game. But if you'd like something closer to the truth, ask the vendors.

David Lesniak ● 1705d

I agree with Rob about the so-called antiques market. I think that organizer has run roughshod over Chiswick. They have displaced outdoor seating for GBK. They have completely blocked the pavement for loading and they have displayed their goods in front of shop windows across the pavement from their pitch. Some traders also start set-up at 5:45am. In the world of outdoor markets, that never ends well.I have enquired with Hanif Khan who foots the bill when the pavement needs repair/replacement when a loaded van sits on it. By comparison, simply look to the new paving on the new stretch of cycle lane across from the cinema. At the driveways they use a smaller cement paver to withstand the stress of drive over. The pedestrian path is engineered for a live load, meaning one that is transitory. Yet the antique market lets loaded vans sit on the pedestrian pavers which is known as a dead load. Only a matter of time before those pavers start to give. Does LBH file a claim with the market for damages like it does when the fun fair takes over Turnham Green? Or does it come out of all our pockets? Never heard back from Hanif. Maybe Karen knows more on that.I'd much rather see another local organizer do something. For my money I'd approach Chiswick Creatives, a wonderful group of artisans. They could use their network to attract other artisans throughout Hounslow (maybe cast the net into Hammersmith?) and make it a west London crafts market.For those with comprehension issues, the above is known as constructive criticism. Now if I had said let's do away with all those bloody markets, that would be anti. No doubt some idiot will cut and paste and weaponize that last sentence against me. Enjoy!

David Lesniak ● 1705d

“ Ask yourself why stores and venues are closed on Sunday. Some right on Devonshire Road, in fact. Some on that map that only lives on the Flower Market website, and some that don't make the cut. Then while you're at it, have a chat with the gals at Parle Pantry if you'd like the real story.”So the real story is that Parle Pantry is open on Sundays and what’s more were offering a discount voucher with the Flower Market! So were the girls not minded to tell you this, or were you not minded to share they actually have a partnership with the Flower Market?It’s indeed better to talk to Chiswick retailers directly rather than rely on you as a source of second-hand information here. They’ve told me that not just footfall, but turnover is up on Flower Market Sundays. If you look on the CFM website you can see that sales are more than 100% up compared to other Sundays. https://chiswickflowermarket.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/CFM-2020-Review-.pdfI’m not sure why you feel it necessary to misrepresent the relationship and effect of the Flower Market on other Chiswick traders. Chiswick Flower Market doesn’t just talk a good game, but is making a measurable and significant contribution to the renaissance of the High Road.

Tom Pike ● 1705d

There seems to be little cause for doubt that overall the markets have provided a boost to the area and many established businesses on the High Road are seeing an increase in turnover that can be directly attributed to the markets.That said it must be remembered that a minority of businesses will have experienced a net negative impact, particularly those that have lost revenue due to the closure of the car park on Sundays. You can't expect them to be joining in the applause.While I don't dispute the footfall figures quoted in the article it is irksome that important and interesting data seems to be shared by the authorities with a selected few when it supports their case but is fiendishly difficult to obtain when it doesn't.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1704d

Nice try, Tom. I did speak with Dee and her sisters. They told me about the discount and they also told me the ball was dropped by CFM. They said it was great at the beginning and now the more predicable market day is when they have the "antiques" market because it is larger and extends further east. Please do keep weaponizing. It's what you do. Forgetting the part about venues being closed on Sunday is also part of what you do. Misrepresenting is your go-to.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

The large increase in footfall from the market will completely dominate any loss of footfall from the removal of parking. Have any traders actually claimed otherwise?The footfall data from TfL is publicly available thanks to FOI’s from John Balmond and others: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information

Tom Pike ● 1704d

'The large increase in footfall from the market will completely dominate any loss of footfall from the removal of parking. Have any traders actually claimed otherwise?'Yes, two that I have spoken to. They accept the overall benefit of the market to the area but believe it has harmed their takings on what used to be a key trading day for them.Is it possible to provide a direct link to the footfall data - I searched and couldn't find it.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1704d

Which retailers said they “believed it harmed their takings”? I’ve looked at actual takings from one retailer and they were pleasantly surprised to see their takings were up more than 100% on CFM Sundays. It should be relatively straightforward to confirm this for other retailers rather than rely on their beliefs. One example of the footfall data is here: https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-2004-2122

Tom Pike ● 1704d

The other factor on CFM Sundays, but less so on the Cheese Market Sundays,is the increase of cars into Chiswick, not a parking space to be had !

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

I don’t get why you are suggesting that the markets are having a negative impact on hospitality traders on the High Road? The extra footfall from visitors to the market is there for any hospitality business to monetise and it isn’t the zero sum game that you represent: that visitors to the market take away business from local traders. More visitors, more buzz and nationwide attention, more money into the local economy - these are good things for Chiswick, and all achieved without gridlock or needing a multi storey car park, which some predicted would be impossible. You were successful (although Councillor Biddolph should take most credit) in removing some of the traffic restrictions on Devonshire Road which reduced weekend footfall and removed the Flower Market. If  Loraine’s weekly dry cleaning drops haven’t directly benefitted La Trompette and led to a renaissance of the road, then perhaps there is a flaw in your logic?

Ed Saper ● 1704d

Now we have bike, car and pedestrian counts on the High Road, it should be possible to quantify this.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

"If Loraine’s weekly dry cleaning drops haven’t directly benefitted La Trompette..."Tut tut Ed, have you been spying / stalking me ? 😉

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

You've forgotten the many times you've told us about your regular driving trips to the dry cleaners, pet shop, Marks & Spencer etc.

Ed Saper ● 1704d

How do you convert counts into money.

Julian Pavey ● 1704d

Ostensibly flower markets, cherry trees and cycle lanes do not appear to share common characteristics.And yet they attract never-ending and determined opposition from the same handful of grim miserabilists in Chiswick.Why is that? What is the common thread?

Paul Campbell ● 1704d

No, not at all, as usual your over egging and misrepresenting, but now't new there 💤

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

"They said it was great at the beginning and now the more predicable market day is when they have the "antiques" market because it is larger and extends further east."From what you are now saying, the issue here is not the negative effect from the Sunday markets, but rather how best to extend the positive effects. That's quite the opposite of how you initially presented the markets as causing Sunday closures, with the antiques market having a particularly negative effect on Chiswick retail. The closures are down to staff shortages, nothing to do with the markets. For example I gather Angie's is recruiting and training up new chefs - Sundays is a good day for them.  So we have concrete evidence that the Sunday markets have increased both footfall and turnover, while your criticism now is that traders are not always best able to take advantage of this.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

There's little sign of significantly increased traffic on the High Road on the market Sundays for October and November. Overall it's just 2% higher than the traffic on other Sundays. In fact Saturday, not Sunday, has consistently the highest traffic of the week.Footfall is up 22% on market Sundays compared other Sundays in these months, and cycle counts are 51% higher. It looks like the extra footfall attracted by the Sunday market is arriving by foot or bike  rather than by car.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

Looking at all the Sunday markets for last year up to the end of November, footfall on market Sundays up 20% compared to other Sundays. Car traffic shows only a 1% increase on market Sundays compared to other Sundays while C9 cycle counts are up 21%. It's clear that this extra footfall is not arriving by car.It's also interesting to look at the correlation between the footfall, car traffic and cycle traffic, that is how closely they follow each other over all the Sundays between March and December. Car traffic is slightly negatively correlated on Sundays - as car traffic increases footfall tends to slightly decrease. In contrast Sunday footfall is significantly positively correlated with C9 cycle counts.In fact if you look at every day of the week, the average correlation between footfall and car counts is low (r2 =  0.03) while between footfall and C9 cycle counts the correlation is much higher (r2 = 0.33). C9 cycle counts are a much better predictor of pedestrian counts along the High Road than car counts.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

Missing availability of fresh cut flowers in Chiswick during the week. Any ideas why the well established flower stall outside Sainsbury, or Pot Pourri lovejy florist shop have closed?

Caroline Wilkinson ● 1704d

This plot shows that while cars along the High Road make no discernible contribution to the footfall on Sundays, cyclists do, particularly when flowers or cheese are on offer.

Thanks to Loraine for making the initial comment that prompted looking at the data.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

Tom, why do you keep relying on statistics only for Chiswick High Road ? I'm referring to parked cars on Market Sundays on roads such as Heathfield  Terrace, Horticultural Place, SCR, Dukes Avenue and Duke Road to name a few, to park cars on those roads they do not need to access via Chiswick High Road  !

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

So are suggesting all those extra cars you hypothesise are parking on Sunday market days are studiously avoiding driving along the High Road as they find every available parking space in Chiswick, and then after making their purchases they carefully U-turn to ensure they avoid driving down the High Road when they leave?I have to admit while it's theoretically possible, I hadn't considered that might be what's actually happening.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

No, Tom.What we have is several traders in the middle of Chiswick and further afield who have done their math and calculated Sunday is expendable. Lights out on a Sunday is about as concrete as it gets.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

Tom, all the roads and many more, I've mentioned are easily accessed from A4 and there's no need for drivers to get onto CHR or even cross it.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

No, lights are out on all the other days of the week as well for those traders with staff shortages. There is a measurable and significant increase in footfall on market Sundays. Can you name one retailer that has decided to close just on Sundays since the markets opened?

Tom Pike ● 1704d

Ed, you run an online business so it comes as no surprise you have no clue what it takes in a high street environment.You might want to take up your issue about parking with Hounslow Cabinet who just approved a plan for regeneration of the Sainsbury site including an improved parking facility. You know, the one with Katherine Dunne that Karen likes to tweet during the CAF to weaponize parking. Katherine approved that plan. Katherine also must have had a hand in the development of the car park in Brentford. So while Brentford gets the proper treatment for regeneration we better hope we come close to getting it right. The evidence isn't looking too good, though, as LBH didn't involve one of the largest stake holders/investors in immediately adjacent to the Sainsbury site - Great Marlborough Estates. And no, we do not need seven or nine or whatever it is of ugly concrete to get the job done. But you might be interested to know the are LEED guidelines for developing green parking facilities. For example, what if the parking at Sainsbury's had a rooftop park overlooking the back common? It would create a new public square which the new flats could look down on and enjoy. It would also be a destination. Give it over to Karen to design and plant. Call it Liebreich Square for all I care. Have it go up and over the tracks. Create an outdoor stage. A set of stairs overlooking the common. Whatever it becomes, it must - must - be linked to the rest of Chiswick. Maybe have the majority of spaces limited to electric vehicles to encourage use. Peek outside that teeny, tiny box, Ed. Or maybe go up a size when shopping for knickers. There's a whole world of possibility out there.As for me being successful in removing the restrictions on Devonshire I find that hilarious. One moment I'm cancelled. The next I'm wielding swords. I do love a cape, though.But speaking of Devonshire, you never answered my question about why the restrictions aren't seasonal? It's a ghost town on a cold, rainy winter's night. That, my friend, is your handiwork.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

So you believe that the High Road plays no discernible role in providing access for the extra customers who chose to drive to Chiswick on market Sundays?

Tom Pike ● 1704d

Tom, there you go again deliberately try to mislead what I'm saying. You constantly publish stats for motor vehicles along CHR, I said on Market Sundays parking is at a premium because many people choose to drive, park up and then walk to CHR and shop etc. For the roads I've previously mentioned driving along CHR is not necessary as those roads can be accessed from roads off the A4.Suggest you either walk, cycle or drive to get a clear understanding of the roads from the A4 that give access to the roads where parking is permitted on Sundays without payment or penalty.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

I was no more than seeking confirmation for what you were implying, that the extra customers on market Sundays are not accessing parking by driving along the High Road. I think we are in agreement on that. So either all those extra drivers are studiously eschewing the High Road as they make their way from all directions to take up all the free parking south of it, as you suggest, or in fact there is no discernible contribution to the extra footfall on market Sundays from people driving to the market. Those are indeed the only two alternatives, and we can all make up own minds on which is more plausible.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

Pot Pourri moved to Sandycombe Road, Kew, and I can't remember when I last saw the flower stall o/s Sainsbury's open.

Gordon McDonald ● 1704d

Tom, you really need to try and think outside your tunnel visioned attitude

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

You demanded we check facts and I and others did. Don’t get your proverbial knickers in a twist when the facts you gave turned out to be misleading. By your reasoning, the success of the market should be impossible because of the cycle lane and not enough parking. Therefore, it is not successful, Karen is misrepresenting its success and businesses are choosing to close on market days because either they’re cut out of the footfall or it is stealing trade away. Except you’re wrong. Your views were strongly challenged by another retailer on CAF and even some of the councillors, so it isn’t just me saying it.

Ed Saper ● 1704d

There’s still the flower stall near Waterstones

Lucy Chambers ● 1704d

Quite the opposite. You and David are resorting to increasingly bizarre claims to confirm your prejudices, that Sunday-market shoppers specifically avoid driving down the High Road to park, or that Chiswick shops are closing specifically on Sundays since the markets opened, despite the significantly increased measured footfall on market days. When that's the only response left to you to explain away all the evidence that challenges your prejudices, you have clearly failed to realise you have run out of road.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

And Wheelers by TGT. Two new plant shops have opened in Chiswick since the Flower Market started. Little Dobbies and Urban Tropicana. The latter started out as a a stall at the market before opening the shop on TGT. It is a lovely shop. It's like the owner of Lizard said when he was asked at CAF how he would feel if a fashion market started up once a month in Chiswick and he said he would welcome it because it would offer variety and attract people with interest to the area. He recounted the experience of restaurateurs in Whitechapel and Commercial Road who welcomed the food stalls in their area because they attracted more footfall and people from outside the area who then wanted to explore other options for eating.

Paul Campbell ● 1704d

Such arrogance as well as deliberately misconstruing my words. It's pointless trying to debate with you your mindset is set in tablets of stone. Have I challenged  anything about the increased footfall on market days  ? No I haven't ! What I said is that more cars come into Chiswick on market days and they don't all use CHR. End of !

Loraine Pemberton ● 1704d

Karen is promoting Ed. Promoters exaggerate. But again, I know you know nothing about trading at a market nor trading on a high road nor working with promoters for that matter. Except for when it fits an agenda. I also know some/all of you are working hard to expunge my comments from the record. Newsflash: I did not say ALL. Nice try though. Be that as all of it may, I also know Dee at Parle Pantry mentioned the antique market days are better because that market stretches further east.We all talk and laugh when sharing resources and planning events together. They were kind enough to bake a delectable almond tart for us at and we reciprocated with an apple pie.  We have stuff of theirs in our walk-in and they let us use some chairs one night for Thanksgiving. And, again, between us we have nearly 30 years worth of market trading. So we know a thing or two about the challenges, the rewards and the optics pertinent to this discussion. The Flower Market team has been at it for one year. But as ever you neglect other venues being closed on Sunday and you neglect that traders on Devonshire Road are not open on Sunday. Some have tried but decided it wasn't worth it.Shoot the messenger all you want. You all keep missing. As if when you hit I'll shut up.Sidenote: does anyone think Karen would turn down 500 parking spaces delivered to the doorstep of the Flower Market? At the very least it would give her traders a place to park.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

Two things, Tom.Thank you for your presumption our data is our belief. Look no further than the MasterCard data was it, that LBH referred to itself that trade in Chiswick was down.Why is footfall data hidden behind an FOI request? Why isn't it freely and easily accessible? Why is it politicized and weaponized? The numbers, however skewed or incomplete or biased, could be used to formulate a response. And yet it has been denied available only after a fight to get it. At that, only one side seems to have it. But as we've seen before from consultative data, if three people respond and two say yippee ki yo ki yay, that does mean 2/3 of the majority are happy. But that does not a representative sample make. But damn, it makes for great promotion.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

Well, Tom, if one drives to the market and needs to park let's say on the Glebe estate, your LTN measures for closing Devonshire Road would force vehicles off CHR sooner. And as Loraine says, they may also opt to come in via the A4 which is, let's admit it, just what you wanted. And yet you somehow want to ignore that possibility.What I do love about this thread, though, is that it has all of you furiously thinking. The attacking is a given. But you're thinking and trying to silence people which tells us we've found a sore spot.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

The owner of Lizard, for the available record, was having a go at charity shops for their unfair advantage offering cheaper goods because they don't pay the same rates. Rates, as we learned, that are set at the will of Hounslow Council.Would someone please explain how a fashion market full of stalls not paying ANY rates, would be offering competitive pricing to that of Lizard versus undercutting him even more so than a charity shop and getting us back to his initial concern?Bit of a pickle, that.

David Lesniak ● 1704d

So you can offer no examples of Chiswick traders that have closed specifically on a Sunday since the markets opened? But that was precisely what you suggested demonstrated the markets were damaging Chiswick retail!As I said earlier, it’s difficult to understand your motivation to publicly misrepresent the effects of the Sunday markets on other retailers.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

On the contrary, I think it’s important you have taken the opportunity to demonstrate the weakness of your arguments and demonstrated the lack of any evidence to back them up.

Tom Pike ● 1704d

You might want to reread what I posted. I mentioned both your and David’s increasingly bizarre claims separately, though David has subsequently confirmed he also thinks shoppers specifically avoid the High Road.Given the agreement on all sides that the High Road doesn’t provide any significant access for customers who drive to Chiswick, the reasoning that Devonshire Road had to be opened up to traffic to save retail there rather falls by the wayside.

Tom Pike ● 1703d

Aren't there fashion stores in Camden?  How do they survive with the markets?  Didn't the Lizard owner explain to you why he would welcome a fashion market in Chiswick?  You put a lot of weight on experience - those of us not currently trading on markets or running stores don't know what the hell we're talking about, so we should listen to those who are.  Except when they disagree with you :-)I note the accusation that I and/or others are trying to silence you and remove your comments (seriously, WTF?!) - but the whole CAF is still on YouTube, and this is the bit where you asked the question about the fashion market.https://youtu.be/kjcAc2R47dg?t=11286

Ed Saper ● 1703d

Oh Ed, best not to have a rant over something you know nothing of.

David Lesniak ● 1703d

Except that I have, Tom. You just refuse to accept it. Denial is yours. It's a bitch to get over so good luck.Happy to repeat:AngiesLa TrompetteRetailers on Devonshire except Wild SwansVilla de GeggianoI see you've missed the messenger again.That said, I'm really not sure what to tell you when a venue posts a sign saying "Closed Sunday" that went up since the markets opened.

David Lesniak ● 1703d

Villa di Gegganio was closed for renovation and is due to re-open today.

Carl Wynne ● 1703d

Angie's have confirmed they are closed because of staff shortages, nothing to do with the markets. Sunday is a good day from them.La Trompette is closed 3rd to 25th January, again clearly not connected  with the markets. Chiswick Lighting and Tribe weren't open on Sundays prior to the markets, nor were W4 bathrooms, though they've cut back on Saturdays, again clearly nothing to do with the markets.Frivoli has indeed been complaining about there being zero Sunday trade, but that was before the first markets arrived. But maybe you're right that Villa Geggiano, the location you list that's quite the furthest from the markets, has been particularly blighted by them since they opened.In contrast the opening of "Megan's at the Flower Market" on that long vacant site must entirely coincidental and has nothing to do with the markets. But it is difficult to understand why they might be open on Sundays right next door to the Old Market Square given the havoc you has been claimed has been wreaked by the markets on Villa Geggiano nearly half a mile away.

Tom Pike ● 1703d

Thanks, Carl. So none of the venues David has listed have closed on Sundays specifically because of the markets.

Tom Pike ● 1703d

As if we didn't talk to Angie herself.But again Tom misses the obvious. Any business with reduced staff would then engineer how best to deploy them. Of late we've seen menus cut in scope, hours reduced, venues closed and opening hours changing. Like it or not, Tom, venues have chosen deliberately to close on Sunday because the don't see it as worth the investment of resources. Add to that, hospitality venues are coming off a dismal December. So why would any cafe/restaurant/bar/whatever opt to further hobble themselves unless they determined it really wasn't worth the  effort. Thank you for confirming what we already knew. Businesses on Devonshire do not open on Sunday because they have determined for themselves it is not worth it. And they're at the epicenter of the markets. As for the Villa, why is it the map provided only on the Flower Market website stops short of listing all venues in Chiswick. The town is a town. It is not just the town center.

David Lesniak ● 1703d

The venues David listed are closed on Sunday. Yet we are being told the markets are absolutely the be all and end all for businesses. Just not on Sunday.The Villa was not open today.

David Lesniak ● 1703d

I asked you for businesses that has closed on Sundays specifically due to the markets. You offered a list that it turns out does not include a single business that cites the markets as a reason for closing on Sundays. In fact all had either Sunday closures before the markets appeared, have been temporarily closed for several weeks, and/or cite current labour shortages that are certainly nothing to do with the markets.You have now shifted to blaming the markets for the fact that all our businesses have not chosen to open on a Sunday. But where is there any high street where that is the case? The Sunday markets have not been able to achieve your totally unrealistic goal, but the failure in this case does not lie with the markets.

Tom Pike ● 1703d

Why does the simplest of threads invariably turn into a nasty argument?  Such a waste of time reading it all.

Sarah Vickers ● 1703d

Sorry, Tom, I couldn't help but notice your "therefore" as evidence elsewhere, but I digress.What you can't do is cite the flower market as a reason for opening either as Devonshire Road businesses have opted not to bother as you yourself have noted:"Chiswick Lighting and Tribe weren't open on Sundays prior to the markets, nor were W4 bathroomsFrivoli has indeed been complaining about there being zero Sunday trade, but that was before the first markets arrived"By your own therefore test of analysis one concludes they have determined it not worth the effort and they are able to survive without wasting resources. Precisely the same as the businesses that are now closed in January and closed on Sunday elsewhere. By your logic, Sunday should be the biggest, bestest day ever! Why would a business opt to let that go? Staff shortage isn't the answer, I'm afraid, because you'd deploy staff to where they're needed most - the busiest day, the busiest venue, the busiest factory, etc. But you know all that.

David Lesniak ● 1703d

Seriously, WTF?! Indeed, Ed. WTF?!Some things to consider:Karen once came in to speak with me regarding a previous issue. She stood there and said "is this because I'm Jewish" to which I said "I'm not sure what your being Jewish has to do with anything." Ironically the member of staff standing next to me was Jewish. She has also written some pretty disparaging stuff in an email she didn't realize was being copied in to the other David. Even someone in that email chain apologized to David for Karen's comments. Our choice is to conduct our business with trustworthy people. Our experience with Karen has been the opposite. On to the CAF - clearly people were listing. In fact @ChiswickHighRd, @ChiswickFlowers and @ChiswickM were busy tweeting during the forum yet, oddly, no one opted to challenge me directly. Publicly. To date it has all been back channel and underhanded. They also included Katherine Dunne which is a concurrent and separate issue.Two people, both representing the markets, have challenged the record of what I said in an attempt to expunge my comments from the written record. That is all I can know given the democratic rules of conduct and engagement.As for Katherine, she is responsible for Community Enforcement, Community Safety, Citizen Engagement and Equalities and Diversity. On her watch, a public space protection order (PSPO) was allowed to lapse. Regulations stipulate when a PSPO comes to an end LBH has a duty to alert the community with a physical notice posted at the site. Something LBH/Katherine Dunne did not do. Why was it allowed to lapse in early 2021? During the course of the past year, we have seen an increase in alcohol-related ASB which has escalated to homophobia. All reported, all logged. Katherine claims not to have received my email regarding details yet she mentions said details anyway. The issue was also forwarded to her by John Todd prior to me even contacting her. Meanwhile she can have a protracted email conversation directly with me yet she claims her email didn't work. And then she cited details from the missing email. Her response was to "raise a ticket with IT" which meant she was going to fix her email. She did not offer any empathy, remorse for the "email glitch" nor did she elaborate on the course of action. She merely said she was fixing her email. I had to persist to obtain information which should have been forthcoming. I actually had to press her to engage with a citizen. A diverse citizen at that. One who was seeking equal protection yet she let a protection order lapse on her watch. You can't make this stuff up.Someone said they thought that Chiswick would benefit from a Labour Councillor. I feel precisely the opposite. All of theses people are in bed with the Labour Cabinet. A Cabinet that is 100% Labour. There is nothing equal nor diverse about one-party rule. I think all of Hounslow would benefit from a different voice on its Cabinet from any party other than Labour. I'm mystified there isn't a regulation requiring just that.If I smell a rat, I'm perfectly entitled to say something stinks. And there is plenty of evidence to back that up.So yes, Ed. Seriously, WTF?!

David Lesniak ● 1703d

Could the markets be in another position. I hear they attract thousands of people. Is that little car park appropriate? Could they move to a bigger venue now they’re so popular?

Maggie Dodge ● 1703d

Even with the markets, Sunday is not the highest footfall day in Chiswick, especially in the evenings. Generally people want to have at least part of a weekend off, and shop workers have a legal right to opt out of working on Sundays, so availability of labour is especially limited.Having failed to back up your original assertion that any business has decided to close on Sunday because of the markets, you are left with claiming that the well established reasons for shops not to open on Sundays are actually the result of the Sunday markets. But all your denigration really demonstrates is your unreasoned antipathy to the Sunday markets. Meanwhile the rest of Chiswick are voting with their feet.

Tom Pike ● 1703d

David, well said ! Truth, Transparency and Democracy should be the key words in national, local and community Politics, sadly they appear to be thin on the ground atm.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1703d

Sorry, Tom, you're trying to deliver the news that footfall is up by 60,000 and then you try to deny that's not incentive to open a shop on a Sunday because shops haven't been open on a Sunday prior to the delivery of 60,000 potential new customers. How very strange. But here's a fun fact: we've traded at markets like these for over 16 years. We've had a shop on the high road for almost 14 years and we've seen markets and festivals in the area impact trade. I know that reality and our experience just kills you on some level and you try like hell to hurl invective and hate at us. I sense part of it is somehow intellectual snobbery on your part but I digress. We've worked with multiple promoters like Karen. In scenarios like that, markets we've been at have had to amend trading hours and, in some cases, cease altogether down to the impact they've had on local economies. And you gloss over what this is: an opinion and constructive criticism. A bit like the CS9 debate where I advocated for a more green solution which you finally, at long last, embraced. I advocated for a redesigned CS9 and now we see version 2.0 on its way with v3.0 being promised. And yet you've tried to posit construction somehow isn't construction. Oops."You can try and walk back on your scaremongering but we know and remember the reality.""You all set out your positions, trying to instill fear into everyone, crying out for more, more,, more. We see you."

David Lesniak ● 1702d

"...markets we've been at have had to amend trading hours and, in some cases, cease altogether down to the impact they've had on local economies."Whatever might have been the circumstances elsewhere, in the case of Chiswick you misrepresented shop closures as down to the markets, when clearly they were not. In fact we know that several new businesses have moved into Chiswick since the markets opened, and shopfront vacancies are down. I'm not going to claim this is all down to the markets, though the fact that one new business actually named itself after the flower market is strongly suggestive.  There's no invective and hate on my side, David. However, clearly you harbour some unresolved animosity to those behind the markets which is driving you to denigrate without any foundation their positive contribution to Chiswick.

Tom Pike ● 1702d

On the first morning of the flower market opening, I was in Tesco buying a Sunday paper, when the guy from Wheeler's cut flower stall on the same side of CHR came in, needing change for some banknotes. He mentioned that he was rushed off his feet. This was early in the morning, before normal Sunday shop opening hours.On another occasion soon after, I popped into Foster's rare book shop and in chatting, the owner mentioned that the flower market was great for his business.

Richard Cathcart ● 1702d

Twice we have gone from the Flower Market and queued for a table at Angie's (once for brunch and once for lunch). Another time we couldn't get a table at Tarantella or Megan's, without a long wait, and ended up eating at Betty's in Barley Mow Passage. I don't know if the High Road is normally this busy as previously we wouldn't have gone there on a Sunday but since the flower and cheese markets started that has changed.

Angela Peel ● 1702d

AhIts another us and them thread

Julian Pavey ● 1702d

I think it is clear there is no love lost between you and Karen - you accuse her of:- being untrustworthy;- engaging in underhanded activities;- writing disparaging things about you in an email;- making a false accusation of anti-semitism; - trying to remove or challenge your comments about the markets from the CAF record;- guilt by association with Katherine of being homophobic and / or encouraging hate crimes against you.  Since at least 2018 you've traded blows with Karen, accusing her of conduct unbecoming of an MBE, saying "it is the outright lies with the intent of doing harm that compels me most" - even accusing her of "almost single-handedly keeping Empire House vacant".You said:"when you send minions to do your dirty work and then you post lies behind the cloak of an avatar, don't come crying to me if that behavior gets called out and your MBE is at risk. You have made the bed in which you lie. I'm just making sure you find it comfortable." The context of your complaints about the markets is a historic antipathy towards Karen and predictions that they wouldn't benefit Chiswick - put simply, you have an agenda to discredit the markets and to downplay the benefits of the footfall, which is what appeared to be on display at the CAF.  Whatever legitimate gripes you have are so exaggerated and your claims that businesses are shutting on Sunday despite or because of the markets are so overblown, that they cannot be taken at face value.

Ed Saper ● 1702d

It certainly has an ideological charge for some, these two small markets, one cheese, one flower, becoming totems of a new green order. Whether they make much difference either way is moot. But I expect someone has some spurious data to share. Won’t be going to either in a hurry, but some pitcher plants might tempt me to the latter.

Russell Pearson ● 1702d

Sorry, Tom, data manipulation is your bailiwick. Not mine.I can't help but notice you neglected to mention those businesses that closed permanently while these markets were in operation.Again, by your representation, you'd think every single last retailer and hospitality venue would throw open the doors and rake it in up and down the high road. Yet we saw permanent closures and businesses opting to close on Sunday. Sidenote: I said there is more than meets the eye and the picture isn't as rosy as we're being told it is by a promoter. One would think if a promoter has the best interest of the entire community at heart, they'd be interested in all feedback good and bad. And yet we see a ploy to silence the bad. Sorry, two ploys that I know of. Nothing says diversity, equity and inclusion quite like censure and suppression. And yet that is what you yourself are promoting.Have a blessed day.

David Lesniak ● 1702d

Oh, Ed.As if I'm alone in my experience with either of these women.Tweeting during a public forum as opposed to asking a direct question on record. Yup, underhanded. And Katherine lets that lie. Yup, complicity.Nothing false about it. As I said, a Jewish member of staff was right there with me.Two market representatives have challenged the CAF record. My guess is if it isn't Karen directly, then it is one of her minions. And I also guess (let's be honest, I know) they are all reading and aware of this thread yet neither has the balls to speak out publicly. I also know at least one of them was encouraged to contact me directly. But nope, nothing. To Richard's point, the early days experience is pertinent. That was the peak but there has been a significant drop-off since. That is entirely normal for any new venture. You may recall we dedicated an entire window display that wasn't acknowledged except by Bridget who no longer is working with the market. Nor is Karen's former partner working with her on Abundance. But I get it now. It's all nothing but political. Extreme political exclusion including from the member of cabinet responsible for community engagement, equalities and diversities. And she has some bedfellows here in Chiswick. One Hounslow is the Labour mantle. Their mantra. It just isn't their legacy. And locally they have their enablers. The jig is up.

David Lesniak ● 1702d

Yes Julian it is. Funny how the cycle lobby,  and not the better known ones, tell  a different story to others. . Whether they’re true who knows.  I could say I couldn’t get a booking at a particular restaurant if I want.  I’m reminded of way back when  the signs telling us of the very new restrictions for Turnham Green were hidden  behind trees and bus stops. Dirty tricks, remember that

Maggie Dodge ● 1702d

One problem with Chiswick is (much like most of English/British towns if you allow a sweeping generalisation) that there isn't a "market square" where, indeed, one could have a market taking place.The second thing I find missing in this area is a car park for visitors. I was talking about with my eldest daughter, who's 12, and her question was "Why don't people take the Tube?", which is fair enough, but leaving that aside... if there is a number of visitors coming into Chiswick and accessing the High Road's amenities (and I guess there are), and if these visitors are coming by car, an underground car park could be a worthy investment.Take for instance Praca Luis de Camoes in Lisbon (but the examples are legion, frankly). Link to Google Maps below. The square was once a car park, I believe, and has since then been turned into a urban space devoid of cars by adding an underground car park. You could do something similar, say, under Chiswick Common (unless down there you have a Saxon village or a Roman castrum or whatever) and reserve on-street car space for those who are residents. Just my 2p's worth. https://goo.gl/maps/WNtAyePfpXpv2QEx5

Francis Sheehan ● 1702d

The space was a market before it was a car park!

Michael Robinson ● 1702d

You first claimed that shops are closing on Sundays because of the markets, but it turned out not to be the case for all the shops you listed. You now claim, similarly without any evidence, that there has been a significant drop off in the markets. 

Ed is right not to take what you say at face value. You have quite a record on misrepresentation, including claiming in the national press that a cycle activist was responsible for posting videos of a simulated missile attack, supposedly directed at your shop, when quite another individual had been reported to the police.

In this case, we have independent evidence of what has happened on Sundays to footfall on the pavement on the High Road at the junction of TGT. They paint quite a different picture than the one you are trying to present:
This is footfall for every Sunday for all the months we have counts for both the market and non-market days. Far from dropping off, September was the best month for market footfall in 2021, with the highest additional pedestrians on the pavement compared to non-market Sundays. That's quite the opposite to what you are claiming.

Maybe you could provide the evidence you have seen that supports your claim? We know you are willing to make groundless claims to bolster your case, but maybe there is a more innocent explanation here and you are mistaking a change in your own takings to what is happening elsewhere in Chiswick. Without any evidence, you risk looking like you are willing to say anything to vindicate your view, independent of reality.

Tom Pike ● 1702d

The lack of car parking is indeed a problem for many. Hence so many people visit Richmond instead.

Steve Taylor ● 1702d

"...if there is a number of visitors coming into Chiswick and accessing the High Road's amenities (and I guess there are), and if these visitors are coming by car, an underground car park could be a worthy investment."

It turns out you don't need to guess. According to the traffic counts from the camera at the junction with TGT, if the extra visitors are accessing the markets by car on a Sunday, there's little sign of them in extra car counts along the High Road. However, the increase in pedestrian footfall on market days does vary in step with the number of cyclists on C9.



 There's rather more of a case for increased bike parking than building a new car park.

Tom Pike ● 1702d

I think there is no increase in cars on Sundays because there is not enough parking and that there would be more customers arriving by car if there was enough parking spaces.

Janice Evans ● 1701d

Chiswick is renowned for having limited parking so to attract visitors you need to convince people that there is ample parking. Difficult to do that, because there isn't!If it was highly publicised that a new underground parking facility was being built, you may change the public perception that Chiswick is a disaster area for parking and is anti car!In the meantime visitors can enjoy what Richmond has to offer. Or even Kingston which has ample parking and good markets.

Steve Taylor ● 1701d

Footfall is 50% higher on market Sundays, even though parking has been reduced. The answer to increasing the number of people on the High Road is clearly not the out-dated notion of increasing parking spaces, but rather improving the attractiveness of what Chiswick offers, and the markets are doing just that. Chiswick has been recognised nationally for the post-pandemic revival of its retail. In contrast, Richmond has slumped.

Tom Pike ● 1701d

150% increase would be better, four to a vehicle etc...

Janice Evans ● 1701d

And the counter at Chiswick Lane says precisely what, Tom?

David Lesniak ● 1701d

"Footfall is 50% higher on market Sundays"And yet still not enough to incentivize businesses to open on those market Sundays In particular those smack dab in the market epicenter.Curious, don't ya think?

David Lesniak ● 1701d

David, are you saying they are closed because of lack of parking orthe fact that the Market is there, would have thought they would have more customers on Sundays.

Janice Evans ● 1701d

While haters continue to hate, I'm glad Francis mentioned parking. This was one issue I mentioned yet the market organizers had a go at me on Twitter and copied in Katherine Dunne. No one challenged me publicly.  As reported by The Chiswick Calendar, LBH Cabinet approved a plan to redevelop the Sainsbury site. Part of that plan is the provision for improved parking. Since Katherine is on the Cabinet and the Cabinet approved the plan I'll presume Katherine voted for approval. Here is the link: https://chiswickcalendar.co.uk/plans-for-redevelopment-of-chiswicks-big-sainsburys-site-published/ As I have said before, the top deck of the parking garage could be a new public square perhaps lined by town homes or low-rise flats facing the square. The platform could also project over the tube tracks and connect to the Chiswick Common and Acton Green and then connect in the other direction to the High Road. Pertinent examples would be the High Line and Hudson Square in NYC, and locally Renaissance Square just off the A316. The entire structure could be hidden by the tube tracks and other structures so it would disappear.

David Lesniak ● 1701d

David, I'm trying to imagine that in place you have a good understanding of Town Planning so it must be very frustrating for you to see plans that couldbe improve on, of course cost plays a part in final decisions so I am told.  Extra parking would be welcome by most living locally and those wantingto visit the area I'm sure.

Janice Evans ● 1701d

The plans show what's proposed for the currently underused Sainsburys car park is a mixed community/residential development and a larger residential development built above "more compact parking... embedded within a ground floor podium." A comparison with the existing parking shows about half the existing spaces can be accommodated and these will be shared between community, residential and retail use. 

Tom Pike ● 1701d

Always pretty busy when I go. How does it compare on the cheese front?

Russell Pearson ● 1701d

It looks like Sainsburys themselves must feel the current car park is much larger than is necessary. Waitrose operates with no parking, and Marks and Spencers with 20 spaces, so 320 spaces is really an outdated provision when much of the "big shop" has moved on line.It's been a long time since I bought cheese from there, but I can't say I miss what they then offered.

Tom Pike ● 1701d

Richmond Sainsbury’s is always busy, bigger car park too. I know a lot of Chiswick people drive there now to avoid CHR.

Russell Pearson ● 1701d

“ Waitrose operates with no parking, and Marks and Spencers with 20 spaces”. Probably why Sainsbury’s does so much better than M&S and Waitrose.

Steve Taylor ● 1701d

I understood that there was extra parking provided in a school car park for the first flower market but that this wasn't used.

Philippa Bond ● 1701d

If parking made the difference, why would Sainsburys have decided to halve their number of spaces?

Tom Pike ● 1701d

“why would Sainsburys have decided to halve their number of spaces?”Because getting to any shop in Chiswick by car is now a nightmare so people shop in retail parks like Kew and avoid Chiswick like the plague.

Steve Taylor ● 1701d

Philippa, very few people  if any, knew of that parking facility, hence it wasn't used yet the anti car brigade claimed it as a success saying car usage was declining ! Talk about manipulating and massaging data

Loraine Pemberton ● 1701d

So Sainsburys wants to destroy its own business? Kew retail park is also building over much of its underused parking space. Presumably they have a similar desire.

Tom Pike ● 1701d

Kew car park is always at near capacity. The owners of the plot are selling to developers. M&S will remain. If parking becomes an issue, shoppers will drive to further afield sites. Or get vans to do the driving for them of course.

Russell Pearson ● 1701d

‘Always at near capacity’ ?Doubtful

Stewart Jones ● 1701d

Except for people who actually live in Chiswick.

Carl Wynne ● 1701d

Yes, it gets busy. But you get a spot to park if you drive round. Probably what attracts so many people to shop there. Last time I went one of the markets was on (I naturally avoided Chiswick) and a with few on here crowing on about it later.  I noted just how busy Kew was, and wondered to myself how the numbers compared. Maybe more people were there that day, to avoid any potential crush on the High Road and lack of parking spots?

Russell Pearson ● 1701d

So while you see these car parks as being fully used, their owners see them as underperforming assets. That certainly doesn’t indicate much of an appetite for investing in any more car parks. Throughout London surface parking lots are being built on and multistories demolished. We’re rather seeing a mass dumping of stranded assets.

Tom Pike ● 1701d

I can honestly say I have never had any problem parking there. In fact, I only go there because the parking is free and easily available and the M&S Food offers much more choice than the smaller one on the High Road.

Stewart Jones ● 1701d

Not so much a “mass dumping of stranded assets” as one of greedy rentiers cashing in over priced real estate - with London building land hyper valued by green belt restrictions, coupled with a crisis in affordable homes?

Russell Pearson ● 1701d

Isn’t the site in Chiswick owned by Sainsburys? In all cases, though, it comes down to the same thing, the retailer does not value the use of the plot for parking above alternative uses, either as an owner or lease holder.

Tom Pike ● 1701d

Or you could enjoy what Chiswick has to offer by walking, cycling or going by bus or tube.  Some of us have not started eating in when out and about yet and we are not alone!

Philippa Bond ● 1701d

I went to Kew Retail Park on Tuesday and it was nearly empty on the M&S side. A little busier near TK Maxx

Steve Taylor ● 1701d

“ Kew retail park is also building over much of its underused parking space. Presumably they have a similar desire.”Nope, they are building flats. M&S food will remain and the rest of M&S will relocate to beautiful Richmond where they will move into the House of Fraser building. Plenty of parking in Richmond too so shops are thriving!

Steve Taylor ● 1701d

Tom, Sainsbury's will have done an assessment on its own turnover based the reduction car parking spaces.  It will not have made an assessment on the turnover for retail in the rest of Chiswick.  Do you think the users of the Sainsbury's carpark only use Sainsbury's?  The same story with Kew retail park.  Do all the retailers own a share of the carpark?  If spaces are reduced will it reduce the turnover of all the retailers?  Do the carpark landowners care about all the retailers turnover or do the want to make the greatest return on their asset?

Kieran Fox ● 1701d

In Kew I've seen a lot of people walking to the markets and there is a station too.  I've been to the retail place when looking for something different not for everyday shopping.

Philippa Bond ● 1701d

“ the retailer does not value the use of the plot for parking above alternative uses, either as an owner or lease holder.”The retailer can no doubt understand that the traffic chaos caused by unwanted LTNs and unused cycle lanes makes driving in Chiswick a nightmare which most people won’t put up with. Why should they?  High Street shops suffer and Amazon takes over the world. The damage is done. Very difficult now to attract people back  to Chiswick High Road. Traders now have to rely on only local people who are able to walk. Even that is dodgy when cyclists and escooters are hurtling around on the pavements!

Steve Taylor ● 1701d

Sainsburys only provided parking on terms that might benefit them. They obviously no longer think attracting a diminishing number of customers who choose to park and then shop at Sainburys and elsewhere is the best use of their assets.Similarly, the owners of Kew Retail Park would seek to maximise the parking space in terms of both the rents they can charge retailers for provision of the parking spaces and alternative uses. Retail turnover will certainly be a consideration in the rents they are able to charge.Overall, these changes just reflect the relative decline in the value to these retailers of car parking compared to alternative uses of the land.

Tom Pike ● 1701d

With Kew Retail Park doesn't a developer own the entire site therefore will be looking to maximise their overall return, which includes renting out the units that will be used for retail.I'd assume both Kew Retail and Sainsburys will be considering the increased business from the additional residential units at the locations. Given the retail units will be basically on their doorstep, this may be a more reliable customer base than people driving there, particularly given the trend of declining levels of car ownership in the area.That doesn't mean the same types of retailers will be there, but you can't expect things to stay the same forever.

Michael Robinson ● 1701d

In Kew the assessment may be that rental return from retail does not make economic sense.  Eventually it may all become residential.  Also on the high street if no accommodation is made for car use that will change the profile of the customers?  Some businesses will not be able to sustain that change.  The mix and profile of the retail units will change.  Also the diversity may be reduced.  This isn't necessarily a bad thing,  it just means a changed high street.  Some will like that, some will not.  I would love to think Hounslow council have a handle on this, but the jury is out on that.

Kieran Fox ● 1700d

The profile of customers is changing anyway.  Car ownership has been slowly but steadily declining for at least 10 years. People in their 60s are the “peak car generation” while the younger generations all have lower levels of car ownership than todays 60 somethings had when they were the same age.Clearly other things have a major affect of retail such as internet shopping.As far as I know, there are controls around the type of use so a restaurant is different from a shop but it isn’t for the council to decide if there are too many Italian restaurants or if a hairdresser would be better than a shop selling socks, that’s up to the customers and the market.

Michael Robinson ● 1700d

Car parks generally serve retail chains, not independents. I'm not sure why retail  diversity will be reduced from less car parks. Generally retail diversity is related to a lower proportion of customers arriving by car, for example Camden Lock, Portobello Road,  Brick Lane vs. the two Westfields and Brent Shopping Centre.

Tom Pike ● 1700d

I'm not sure how you are defining diversity Tom.  Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology.  I would think that if you limit how people can access an area, then the range of goods and services that ae available in that area may be reduced.  So for example, there may be less retail chain stores.  I know some will think that is great, others will not.  I know my wife misses Gap and Fat Face.

Kieran Fox ● 1700d

It's not that they no longer want to visit by car the pandemic has changedour shopping habits but also the roads are so confusing people won't riskthe journey and go elsewhere.

Janice Evans ● 1700d

I think the internet and online shopping has done it for Gap, Fat Face, White Stuff etc. on the High Street..

Michael Robinson ● 1700d

OMG, Tom did a sketch!Actually, Tom, there is no reason this couldn't be a multi-storey car park completely concealed by buildings around it at street level and a giant green space on the upper deck with housing encircling it. Think of it like a giant, meandering planted stairway. At each landing you could have retail of some sort. Maybe retail at the "ground" level of the new square. In fact, engineering permitting, it could even be partly subterranean. Hammersmith just did something similar behind the mall all along Glenthorne Road. Make it as high as the tracks and jam it right up against the tracks. Then the top deck gets dedicated to a new park connecting both commons. You would never know it was there apart from the entry and exit. I'd call it The Bridge.As it happens, it uses your recent reference to the Barnes Community Association where they call for more green space and more parking.

David Lesniak ● 1700d

"Throughout London surface parking lots are being built on and multistories demolished"Except if your Hounslow where you build a multi-story monster of concrete up against Brentford High Street.Get with the program, Tom. Hounslow has just approved the possibility of something similar. It could be done sensitively using green construction methods and be an asset if thought of as a park. Or, if you choose to continue to bury your head in the sand, it could be just like Brentford.Hammersmith just delivered roughly 600 spaces to its regeneration effort. Hounslow just delivered 500+ to its regeneration effort. And Tom think we need all of about 32.

David Lesniak ● 1700d

"it isn’t for the council to decide if there are too many Italian restaurants"Wrong, Michael.A.) This could easily be curated by the council. Some councils forbid chains, for example. B.) Hounslow does have zoning provisions for there not to be an over concentration of offer but they routinely ignore it. I believe its what helped Turnham Green limit estate agents and it often comes up when reviewing street vendors in proximity to bricks and mortar shops.

David Lesniak ● 1700d

Car parks can serve the entire community.But am I to believe my eyes: you just said lower proportion of customers arriving by car but then you offered up the two bloody Westfields as examples? Both of which have heaving car parks???

David Lesniak ● 1700d

"Car parks can serve the entire community."You mean the generally more prosperous half of households that have access to cars. I offered up Westfield as with its dedicated car parking it is hardly a bastion of independent retail.

Tom Pike ● 1700d

If I remember correctly, one of the stipulations of the original planning application of building the Sainsburys store was that the carpark was supposed to be  50% a public car park and 50% for the store as we had very little parking in Chiswick at the time.

Bernard Allen ● 1700d

There were conditions re use of the car park on that Sainsburys' planning application.

Philippa Bond ● 1700d

I'd say that your "Amazon takes over the world" statement is your Unbelievable Truth.

Philippa Bond ● 1700d

always think the time limits stop many from using those car parksas you cannot extend the time.

Janice Evans ● 1700d

"You mean the generally more prosperous half of households that have access to cars"Brentford or Chiswick - which is more prosperous?Brentford or Chiswick - which has 500+ new parking spaces?

David Lesniak ● 1700d

Kings Mall was bought by Ikea. Let's call them a bit like M&S at Kew retail park.

Kings Mall Car park is operated by https://www.premiumcarparks.co.uk/car-park/kings-mall and to Janice's point, is a technologically modern operation. It also has a landscaped park on top of it. It is also immediately adjacent to the tube tracks.

And there is also this snippet from the Hammersmith BID: 

Premium Car Parks was launched in 2018 with the aim of providing high quality, safe and secure parking options, at reduced rates, for people across the country. Since then we have rolled out the successful scheme in seven central town and city locations,   High quality, secure parking in for local employees in Hammersmith 7 days a week at an exclusive price of £9.90 per day.
That parking serves all of Hammersmith and all its businesses, residents and visitors. We park there on occasion. We are an independent business in Hammersmith. We are not the only one. Therefore, this parking serves independent businesses. 

David Lesniak ● 1700d

The 2 hour limit in Sainsbury’s car parking, requiring you to spend money there works well for me.  It’s not a big shopping area . If you just want t to wander then walking us an option.

Maggie Dodge ● 1700d

I visited Kew Park yesterday,  car park was pretty much empty and the place was dead.

Matthew Swain ● 1700d

“ the roads are so confusing people won't riskthe journey and go elsewhere.”100% correct, Janice.

Steve Taylor ● 1700d

Kew retail park is a pleasure during the week. It gets crowded on weekends  but still a much more relaxed experience than trying to drive or park in Chiswick, which is just a nightmare.

Steve Taylor ● 1700d

I walked Steve as I do for the high road,  far more pleasurable on both counts.

Matthew Swain ● 1700d

Poor Matthew, stuck in the past. Car parks have come a long way since then. That said, you do all have that pretty nifty Hyde Park thing built upon a car park. But keep the blinkers on and ignore things like how the EU's farm animals produce more emissions than cars and vans combined. In the meanwhile, I think it imperative this regeneration scheme is thought of as a golden opportunity to rethink the center of Chiswick. A new green space could link those around it. And underneath the parking facility could also be used as a delivery hub for residents and businesses alike from which the so-called last mile could be achieved by bike or smaller e-vehicles keeping larger lorries off the roads. Read up, Matthew, these are part of the plans.

David Lesniak ● 1699d

A 3D virtual image would help if possible.

Janice Evans ● 1699d

"..still a much more relaxed experience than trying to drive or park in Chiswick, which is just a nightmare"You could always try cycling ;-)

Richard Greenhough ● 1699d

I tend to use Kew Retail Park - mainly because it is rarely busy, even on weekends.  Very easy to park, of course, but not a bad walk or cycle via The Thames Path.I don't doubt that there is demand from people who want to drive and easily park for these stores.However, it doesn't appear that there's enough of these types of customers to justify all the space used for parking - even at peak.  To me it suggests an "if you build parking, they will come" approach to helping businesses increase turnover isn't working in Kew.It is why I am doubtful that building a 4 or 5 storey landscraper car park - even if it had a green roof with public access that straddles 4 train lines to improve connections with Bedford Park would dramatically improve the fortunes of local businesses.Also - it would be quite an imposing building - your original plan suggested a 200,000 sq ft footprint - and I don't know how many spaces you envisaged and the split with retail, but that's a lot of spaces and a lot of money to build them.  Given that a number of these multi stories are being knocked down or repurposed, is there really the demand for all these high cost parking spaces in Chiswick?  Or is it like traffic induction - if you build the spaces, more people will drive and use them?  Which is going in the opposite to every government and council policy out there right now and the experience of Kew suggests parking alone isn't enough to induce demand.

Ed Saper ● 1699d

A lot rests on who runs the car parks as many have had problems withEuro Car Parks including myself and avoid them.

Janice Evans ● 1699d

Prior to the pandemic Kew Retail Park was always busy especially at weekends and after 10am on weekdays. The pandemic has changed purchasing habits that is buying online but hopefully this will be reversed back with people shopping in store again.How does on line shopping significantly reduce vehicle usage ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 1699d

I do remember Kew being busier on weekends - but this would be going back 5 or more years.More recently, pre pandemic and certainly during, it has been delightfully empty.  I tend to use the Boots there as always very easy to get a pharmacist appointment or to pop in as well as the M&S food hall.  Online shopping would probably increase vehicle usage, but decrease the requirement for parking.  Although you can argue that one Ocado van dropping off multiple M&S deliveries generates less traffic than each person driving to M&S and back for their individual shopping - but that's assuming everyone uses a car to shop - only 54% of households in London have a car and just because you have a car doesn't mean you'll actually use it for each supermarket trip.

Ed Saper ● 1699d

Ed  aren't you being a bit economical with  the truth re car ownership  ?"There are 2.6m cars registered in London. 54 per cent of London households have at least one car." The key fact being "at least..." Tut tut !

Loraine Pemberton ● 1699d

No. https://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-note-12-how-many-cars-are-there-in-london.pdf

Ed Saper ● 1699d

Ah, ok that'll be cos you're reducing the number of couriers you use to get your goods out of UK to rest of the world ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 1699d

I assume forum fans of Kew Retail Park know that its days are numbered?https://richmond.nub.news/n/future-of-kew-retail-park-in-doubt-after-sale-to-housebuilderM&S are unlikely to stay once the rest of the site has been turned into flats.

Bruce Hammal ● 1699d

You’re one of those anti business, anti manufacturing, anti export, communist Chiswick Tories? We too are great supporters of Comrade Biddolph and the party’s plans for a 100 storey car park and Chiswick’s Great Leap Backward to rejoin the 1980s.

Ed Saper ● 1699d

I feel really sorry for you Ed

Loraine Pemberton ● 1699d

Color me surprised Ed resorts to hyperbole.Poor Ed doesn't get it. Hyde Park is built on a car park.Wouldn't it be nice to have a new Hyde Park type space in Chiswick? Because we can. Hyde Park is 142 hectares. The Sainsbury site is roughly 20 hectares. All of it could be greenspace dotted with housing and commercial space with a hub and parking underneath unseen at street level apart from the entry. When walking along Glenthorne Road, are you aware there are 600 parking spaces? No. I do so love how Kew Retail park with a maximum of 5 shops is compared with the entire offering here in Chiswick. Surely someone can offer up just how many shops and restaurants we have in W4. Kew Retail is nothing more than a strip mall. A small one at that.Renaissance Square by the Hogarth flyover is built on parking with low-rise residential buildings and townhouses on the top deck and lovely landscaped courtyards. Ditto Sovereign Court in Hammersmith home of the previously mentioned 600 parking spaces servicing Hammersmith and Kings Mall.Any of the literature put out by central and local government with regard to town center and high road regeneration indicates parking is an essential component. They also mention the need for new community hubs namely distribution points to re-think how goods make the "last-mile" journey to your door. So a local logistics center, of sorts, would collect goods that would then be distributed further to your door and local shops. It would also create jobs. That hub could be accessed by the community, like the post office, to collect your parcel and while you're out you can go have lunch or buy a new dress. That hub could also have delivery drivers to finish delivering to your door so the Amazon vans don't have to block roads and the HGVs can stay at the perimeter of Chiswick not run through the middle of it. It would zone delivery in a way it is not now.Leave it to the online retailer not to understand how a new public green space would not attract visitors. That's the build it and they will come, Ed. A new high road green space system. The parking is coming one way or another per the LBH approved plans. Now, either vent your frustration at LBH for having built a concrete monstrosity in Brentford (as if that's not what's coming) or lobby them for something better for all of us. Hammersmith has parking. Brentford has parking. Feltham has parking. Hounslow has parking. Of all  the town centers supposed to be linked together, Chiswick is the only one without a public parking facility to serve residents, customers and employees. They all have the same access by public transport.I'll spare you the righteous indignation. How very dare I dream big. How very dare I want better. Note to Ed: I've been right 4 out of 4 so far on the issues facing local communities. They've redesigned CS9. Twice from what we're being told. Dr. Tom calls for green space. Paul is calling for engagement with small businesses. And LBH has just approved improved parking for Chiswick. Funny. I've been saying that for years.

David Lesniak ● 1699d

Will Sainsbury's eventually go they have sold a few stores elsewhere.

Janice Evans ● 1699d

Must say it sounds good David.

Janice Evans ● 1699d

“And LBH has just approved improved parking for Chiswick.”I must admit I’m a little surprised that you’re welcoming the plans to at least halve public parking at Sainsburys - the proposal is quite clear on that aspect. Clearly both the Council and Sainsburys feel that a mixture of residential and community development together with reduced parking is the best way forward for that site. You mention Hammersmith, and the development there took a similar line, reducing parking by 200 spaces in favour of residential development. In contrast your proposals head in the opposite direction: increased parking and built over the railways at high cost. The trend is recognised nationally. Last month Parliament published its report into the recovery high-street retail, concluding:  “strategies for high streets should seek to minimise car use and increase public transport and active travel.”Nevertheless, if you presented your plans to Sainsburys, they might be able to offer a rapid assessment that you could share.

Tom Pike ● 1699d

Poor David - a modern day Cassandra, whose prophesies are always right and no-one ever listens!  Although not so right in your predictions that the markets wouldn't work and your "facts" turned out to be made up and then it was revealed that almost your entire agenda in claiming the markets were damaging business was a personal vendetta against the people involved.  I say almost - the rest is explained by your ego I think!OK - I think you are wisely backtracking from your multilevel car park over the 4 train lines - it would be a vast building to put over and either side of the embankment and quite an eye sore for the good people of Bedford Park.The key features of a OneChiswick member are horror of change and a car first mentality.  Yes - they'd love a multi storey car park, but no, I really don't think they want one towering over their houses and covering up their common.  That's even if you put a publicly accessible green roof on the top of it - something nice to look at when you're flying in to Heathrow.I somehow doubt any developer would want to spend the years negotiating with TFL to get their legal and technical agreement or commit themselves to the regular structural checks to ensure it doesn't impact the railway or the quite unlimited liability if something falls off the building onto the tracks - or commit to the sheer cost of it for that matter.So now we're back to a multi storey underground car park on the existing site - which actually sounds quite sensible in comparison.Here's an interesting fact - the earth excavated for the Hyde Park car park formed most of the embankments on which the A4 runs through Chiswick.  We have our own little bit of Hyde Park right here....and we built a motorway on it.You've got to give it to those 1960s planners - they knew how to fix the traffic congestion problem - build new motorways through the middle of the city and vast new car parks to fix the issue forever :-)  Here's a fact that David might have overlooked - the 1,000 space car park under Hyde Park is under utilised and given over to storage.Which is weird, because parking + park land = lots of happy customers parking up to do their shopping according to David. Or - you invest in sustainable transport - public and active - reduce car use, reduce congestion, reduce pollution, reduce pedestrian deaths and make it such a nice place to live, work and shop that people invest their time in public spirited initiatives like setting up flower markets that increases footfall and business takings.Who - apart from David and a dwindling number of Tory councillors with a fixed 1980s mindset - would object to that?

Ed Saper ● 1698d

I thought it nice that someone takes such an interest.

Janice Evans ● 1698d

my interest is more in buildings, know nothing about Town Planning onlythat cost limits what is actually done.

Janice Evans ● 1698d

"Or - you invest in sustainable transport - public and active - reduce car use, reduce congestion, reduce pollution, reduce pedestrian deaths and make it such a nice place to live, work and shop that people invest their time in public spirited initiatives like setting up flower markets that increases footfall and business takings."Says the business owner who uses motorised  vehicles and airplanes to ship his products worldwide - how eco friendly is that ? Moving onto the Sunday Market Traders, are they all using EV's or zero carbon footprint transport ?I'm just asking a couple of pertinent questions  ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 1698d

Ah, poor Dr. Tom. Only thinking in two dimensions.Whilst busy hating me, did it occur to you the footprint is reduced while the height could be anything? It could be above ground. It could be below ground. It could be a combination. Here on Earth reality occurs in 3D. But again, you're too busy hating to ignore the possibility of a new public green space. Brilliant! "Green spaces offer wellbeing benefits that may incline people to spend more time on the High Street." Grrrrr.Did it occur to you that you could also accommodate secure storage for hundreds of cycles in a centralized point? You know, so all those promised cyclists have somewhere to lock up? Of course it didn't. Grrrrr.Did it occur to you accommodation could be made for charging electric vehicles like HGVs and cabs? Not to mention you and the Mrs. in your new EV?You were too busy getting your "facts" wrong. In Hammersmith the car park accommodates 600 spaces according to its website. So by your math it had been 800. The residential is also built entirely on top of a car park. This must really piss you off.Unless you come somewhere close to competing with high streets on either side of you, people will go to either side of you.That Parliamentary report also stipulates a fair and open assessment of parking. It also recommends a council analyze its dependence on revenue from parking fees/penalties. A car-free town center by 2050 means untold millions in revenue down the toilet. Speaking of toilets, a new facility could incorporate them per the Parliamentary Report. Grrrrr."Instruct local authorities to review their working practices and cultures and embrace the skills, resources and enthusiasm for recovery and transformation that are, without doubt, present in the business and wider community."Sophistry and censure do the precise opposite of engagement. Yet these you pedal while you attempt to silence and generate hate.

David Lesniak ● 1698d

Facts weren't made up, Ed. I even fact checked them again knowing I wouldn't have to. What was it Parle said, oh yes, "what David said is not untrue" along with asking not to be contacted again by the likes of you as well as getting an apology from a market minion as said minion didn't realize what was going on. You simply can't make it up. Sorry, I mean you and Tom can, but others opt to go with the evidence of venues and shops opting to close on Sunday. But color me interested that both you and Tom are dead set against creating a new public green space. Hate the very idea of a new Chiswick Green. A new public square. How utterly dreadful that would be! Meanwhile, it could look something like this as seen from Turnham Green: And once you're up there it could look like this: Careful, now. That Parliamentary Report recommends adding culture and art. Wouldn't want that, would we?

David Lesniak ● 1698d

The plan for Sainsburys specifies parking with a ground floor pedestal: that’s a single floor, half the area of the existing car park with residential development  above. Parking at Hammersmith has indeed been reduced by 200 spaces.It’s rather odd that you believe such information represents any attempt to silence you or spread hate.

Tom Pike ● 1698d

Parlé is the one you suggested was shut on Sundays?And it turned out it wasn't?Really - they told *you* to tell *me* to stop contacting them?  What else did they say about me that you're going to make up?Cough, cough, bullshit, cough :-)

Ed Saper ● 1698d

Ed, the only BS, cough, cough nonsense is from you ! Try and get a grip before posting more of your hypocritical nonsense  🙈

Loraine Pemberton ● 1698d

David is suggesting that my phone call to Parlé to check their opening times so upset them that they've asked I stop contacting them.That's total BS.Of course, I wouldn't have needed to call them if David hadn't been spreading around the suggestion that they were closed on Sundays.Bet he didn't tell them that!  I can see they've updated their opening times on Google - they were incorrect before I called and I let them know that - in case people weren't visiting them thinking they were closed - no thanks to David's rumours.  Not exactly suggestive of my <1 minute call being so unwelcome they passed a message to David to ask me specifically to stop calling them!I also expect that he didn't disclose that his beef with the markets is all to do with his personal animosity against the individuals involved and some weird ego trip that certain people didn't talk to him personally or didn't thank him enough, and absolutely nothing to do with him looking out for their livelihoods.  I'm sure Parlé and all the other businesses he references as backing his anti-markets views are appreciative of him talking for them on a public forum!

Ed Saper ● 1698d

Simmer down, Ed. Once again, you're facts are incorrect.I'd suggest stepping back from the hate. Maybe wean yourself to avoid the DTs.

David Lesniak ● 1698d

No, Ed, you are the one making false accusations and connections. I thought you were going to eat at Parle. Instead we see you only weaponized them.I said Angie's is closed on Sunday. It is. I have also said other shops and venues opt to close on Sunday. They do.I never said they mentioned you. I doubt they know you by name given that one "fact" check phone call of yours.You believe your own BS. That's oddly fun to watch. And you make yourself so angry. So angry.

David Lesniak ● 1698d

Grrrrrrr! Angry man rants and argues with himself.

John Hall ● 1698d

Mmmm. Ed gets more ridiculous by the day. It’s embarrassing that he thinks he can outwit David. He is totally out of his league.

Steve Taylor ● 1698d

"Angry man rants and argues with himself"Nice one, John. Didn't you just advocate removing local residents from local consultations?

David Lesniak ● 1697d

The images help David it's sometimes difficult to visualise.

Janice Evans ● 1696d

Tom, Ed, et al are okay with Hounslow doing parking like this: Hammersmith does parking like this, which to me is preferable and what Chiswick should have per the LBH Cabinet approved scheme for Sainsburys redevelopment:

David Lesniak ● 1696d

Tom, given you were recently arguing construction wasn't construction, perhaps leave this one to people who know a thing or two about town planning and urban design. I know evidence and expertise mean nothing in your little post-factual world. Yet the facts remain.You yourself wanted more greening yet here I am telling you how to maximize it in this location and you simply say no. I don't look the fool advocating for a new green space that could be as large as the entire site. In fact, you haven't pointed out where the public green space is in the current diagram. What you're referring to is podium parking. Not pedestal. And the plan is nothing more than a diagram indicating multiple points of vehicular access in six locations. Podium parking is sheltered under a building that is elevated on piers. it can also be hidden behind ground-level buildings. It can be landscaped. You support nothing more than a parking lot. Odd.But here we have you nixing the idea of a new public green space. You nixing the idea of a new logistics hub to address last-mile deliveries. You mixing the idea new jobs would be created for that hub. You nixing the idea of a significant increase in cycle parking. You nixing the idea of charge points for any and all electric vehicles.I see you agree parking in Hammersmith accommodates 600 cars. Please point us all to how many spaces exist in Chiswick on the whole and where we can find a centralized facility with roughly 600 cars. Let's go with the average between Brentford and Hammersmith so say 550.

David Lesniak ● 1696d

I'm simply pointing out that the plans in the are for parking on a single ground floor with half the area of the existing surface lot. If you want to advocate for expanded parking, then you need to persuade Sainsburys who in contrast clearly plan to reduce capacity.

Tom Pike ● 1695d

The plan is a diagram, Tom. It does not show any more detail other than outlining a footprint. It could be any height. If Brentford is any indication, it will be.I'm advocating for a mixed-use service podium on top of which would sit a new public green space.Even Karen agrees with that concept given her comments dating back to previous iterations for the site:On behalf of Chiswick High Road Acton Group, Friends of Turnham Green, West Chiswick and Gunnersbury Society and the Acton Green Residents Association, Karen said "we strongly felt - and still feel - that the development is over-dense, too high, with no public realm benefit, and impacts negatively on the conservation area."Note to Tom: a new public green space would be a public realm benefit. As such, it would be better if it were as large as possible.A personal favorite of mine is Karen saying "we find Hounslow council's continued claims to value community engagement to be bogus." This as two market representatives tried to silence me. Let's call it dis-engagement.

David Lesniak ● 1695d

Much as I personally like Karen there must surely be better ways to start your day then digging up her alleged quotes and posting multiple times on the same topic on different threads. We are what 3 maybe 4 years in now?

Matthew Swain ● 1695d

"The plan is a diagram, Tom. It does not show any more detail other than outlining a footprint. It could be any height."The texts says: "More compact, indoor car parking should be embedded within a ground floor podium."Who are these two market representatives, and how are they trying to silence you?

Tom Pike ● 1695d

Mr Lesniak does seem to have a few issues.I have just read his cafe 'Outsider Tart' trip advisor reviews.

Sonia Beddington ● 1695d

Sonia, your post is unnecessary and somewhat passive-aggressive.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1694d

Matthew, if I were you and so annoyed at the quote, might I suggest you contact MyLondon where the article lives? No doubt it also lives on this forum somewhere. Unless, of course, it was scrubbed.Always nice to see you up to your usual whatever it is.

David Lesniak ● 1693d

The podium is under the building on the south side. Otherwise you have a car park on the north side of the site with nothing concealing it.I'm sure you can do an FOI to find out who the two market reps were. Unfortunately, as democracy has it, I am not permitted to face my accusers. For that you'll have to ask Hounslow. But I've no doubt it is the reason why nobody challenged me publicly because they knew they could do it in an underhanded way and not be found out. Let's call it cowardly.

David Lesniak ● 1693d