Forum Topic

Hounslow Council Operation Kill Chiswick Traders volume #12536

Have I read this correct from the front page re the cinema  ...that the opportunity for people out of the area / with mobility issues etc to drive in and park and shop/eat/drink if they are really crazy got to the cinema has just been  made more difficult and surprise surprise more money into Hounslow council's coffers? How do they get away with these stunts- somehow or other Turnham Green Terrace is included as a side street to the cinema #joke.  I would be amazed if 5 or 10% of the people who go to the cinema drive and park nearby, however by covering this whole area with increased restrictions surely the only outcome is less people bothering and sitting at home watching netflix and ordering a deliveroo pile of cold sandwiches? What am i missing here - Happy New Year to all BTW"...As a result the council is planning to create sub-zones in these two zones on some roads which will see parking restrictions increased to 9am-9pm Monday to Saturday and 5pm – 9pm on Sunday.The current operational hours are 9am – 7pm Monday to Saturday and these will remain the restricted hours in the roads in the two zones not designated as sub-zones. Residents will be able to continue to park through the whole of their zone as before.The survey indicated support in principle for extending the evening restrictions from respondents of the following roads: Airedale Avenue, Beverley Road, British Grove, Chiswick High Road, Chiswick Lane, Cleveland Avenue, Ennismore Avenue, Homefield Road, Mayfield Avenue, Merton Avenue, Netheravon Road, Pleydell Avenue, Thornton Avenue, Turnham Green Terrace and Upham Park Road. It is also highlighted that, with the exception of Pleydell Avenue, responses from the roads listed above also identified support for Sunday evening controls..."

Tim Garfoot ● 1729d61 Comments

It's a nonsense. There is a bus stop serving multiple routes almost right outside and two Tube stations less than 5 minutes walk away. I'm on one of the affected roads and certainly didn't vote for this.

Carl Wynne ● 1729d

All the people living on those roads who have campaigned against safer streets because of their concerns about the impact of reduced parking on local businesses must be fuming about this .......And so too the Chiswick Conservative Councillors. Look forward to the outrage in the next blog.

Paul Campbell ● 1729d

Oh the irony, have some of those who long campaigned to close roads and reduce parking, now been bitten on their whinging backsides? Bet that stings.Suspect some will cheer it on however.Yes let’s hope our Chiswick councillors complain, not that LBH will listen.

Russell Pearson ● 1728d

My impression and it's only an impression, is the venue is not as busy as it would need to be. Obviously the bloody pandemic hadn't helped but even so every time I pass it looks quite.I hope I am wrong but these new restrictions must be the last thing the business needs.Hounslow stomps it's clumsy boot in yet again I'm afraid.

Adrian Irving ● 1728d

“I hope I am wrong but these new restrictions must be the last thing the business needs.”Quite the opposite, Chiswick Cinema encouraged people not to drive to it:BY TRAIN – We are a five minute walk from Turnham Green and Stamford Brook Underground stationsBY BUS – We are located by the 110, 190, 237, 267, H91, N9, N11 bus stopsBY CYCLE – We have cycle parking spaces outside the cinemaWe’d like to respect our lovely neighbours, so do ask that if you are able to visit us on foot or via public transport, that would be appreciated!

Tom Pike ● 1728d

Not sure i would want to sit in a cinema with a mask on which obviously has not helped.I do think they have got one thing very wrong but that is for another time

Julian Pavey ● 1728d

Many people I know won't use the bus or the tube while the pandemic rages, including me.  Mind you, those are the same people who wouldn't go to a cinema, particularly one that doesn't impose social distancing, until the risk is much less than it is now so probably won't make much difference to us.

Claire Moran ● 1728d

Most sensible people won’t use the bus or tube at the moment unless they absolutely need to. I would think that going to the cinema is an absolute necessity but even more of a turn-off if there is no parking!

Steve Taylor ● 1728d

Thank's Tom. That could explain why they seem so quite.

Adrian Irving ● 1728d

They invested a great deal of money in full knowledge there was no prospect for any significant parking at that location. The pandemic would not have featured in their business case.

Tom Pike ● 1728d

Exactly Tom, the pandemic couldn't have been anticipated so it more important than ever to maximise bums on seats which would of have included customers coming by car.Hounslow have well and truly torpedoed that one, the last thing they need right now.

Adrian Irving ● 1728d

Quite so Steve. What effect this will have on takings can only be negative and don't forget there are other businesses that rely on night time custom in the area.At the very least Hounslow could have waited until things are back to normal whenever that may be or what normal will mean.

Adrian Irving ● 1728d

So you really think when Chiswick Cinema encourage people not to drive there, they mean the opposite?  I think it’s more likely they want to be on good terms with their neighbours who in turn are more probably going to be loyal customers.

Tom Pike ● 1728d

"So you really think when Chiswick Cinema encourage people not to drive there, they mean the opposite?"Tom, is this a question or are you telling me what I think?I have made it very clear what I think. If you disagree that's up to you but deliberately misinterpreting what I said fools no one.

Adrian Irving ● 1728d

Far be it from me to gloat, but what the hell.When we lived on Merton we saw this coming from a mile away. And here it is! So let's see...I advocated for the redesign of a cycle way - let's put at least two in that column since we're on version 2.0 and I advocated for residents parking to be protected - another notch - and I advocated for parking for businesses (if we use Tom's reference to the Barnes Community Association for this which revealed an increase of two spaces) let's just add another two notches. So on the whole when arguments for holistic solutions get silenced by the cycling minority we get a sh*tty pile of sh*t. No big surprise there. Do I mention one method is more prudent? Cost-effective? And if money is saved perhaps even more money is available to further an agenda? Sorry, that would mean being able to see the forest through the trees but they've been cut down.But Tom, let me ask this: if one goes to the movies and sits down and THEN gets the PSA promoting another means of access, hasn't the habit already begun? And if I'm buying tickets online only rarely would I delve into the "Getting There" tab if I know where it is I'm going. So really, the mind is pretty much made up before setting foot out the door.

David Lesniak ● 1728d

"...but deliberately misinterpreting..."A lot of deliberate misinterpretation happens on this Forum and usually by the same people. Thankfully there are contributors like Adrian and David who spot and call out posters on their shenanigans.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1728d

No misinterpretation. You have clearly stated that Chiswick Cinema would benefit from more people driving to it when Chiswick Cinema itself states it does not want people driving to it out of respect for its neighbours. It makes good business sense to value good relations with its local community more than a few more people accessing it through an inappropriate transport mode, even if you find that difficult to accept.

Tom Pike ● 1728d

Tom Pike explained" No misinterpretation. You have clearly stated that Chiswick Cinema would benefit from more people driving to it when Chiswick Cinema itself states it does not want people driving to it out of respect for its neighbours."Which is 100% correct.Just as in the same way drinks manufacturers benefit from a proportion of their customers becoming problem drinkers, alcoholics, or simply anti-social after a few drinks, despite their constant exhortations to their customers to drink responsibly.  He then went on -" It makes good business sense to value good relations with its local community more than a few more people accessing it through an inappropriate transport mode, even if you find that difficult to accept."Indeed. Just as it makes good business sense for drinks manufacturers to exhort their customers to drink responsibly. Rather than to suggest that by choosing their product they can get pleasantly uninhibited at the lowest possible cost which is often the object of the exercise. Let alone become problem drinkers or alcoholics.It called good public relations.While in this case despite all the exhortations andstated good intentions of the cinema management - what's the betting they're all in favour of World Peace as well ? - it seems some of their customers simply aren't listening and are still parking in the surrounding streets. Hence the need for the new restrictions.Unless of course you're aware of some other newly opened attraction or venue in the locality which rather than the cinema, is now drawing additional patrons after 7.00 p.m.?michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 1728d

I know someone who lives in one of the roads near the cinema and since the cinema opened they have frequently found it difficult to park even in the same street that they live in, because they usually get back home after the restrictions have finished. In their case, they have a lot of tools etc. that they can't leave in their van because their tools are their livelihood and they can't risk them being stolen, so they take them in every night.I wind them up by joking that I always find a nice parking place in their road when I go to the cinema, but if the residents find they can't park in their own cpz then I fully support the hours being extended. Whether the hours need to be extended on all the streets as proposed isn't something that I've thought much about, though I suppose the risk of just doing the closest streets to the cinema is that the visiting cars will simply fill up the streets just outside the zone that has had its hours extended.

Andrew Jones ● 1728d

If the cinema owners are discouraging people from driving to the venue, I assume they will also ban all motor vehicle advertising in the cinema?

Steve Taylor ● 1728d

Oh dear oh dear Tom! As you have said the cinema would PREFER, people not to dive but clearly, as I have said, they would benefit from more customers even if they came by car, pogo stick or on the back of a camel.It may the escaped your notice but here on earth many businesses are really struggling and a customer is a customer.You claimed to have run a small business so get real, it's very tough at the moment out in the real world.These restrictions will hurt not only the cinema but other Sunday and night time businesses at the word possible time.Finally, when did I say the cinema says one thing but means the opposite? That's right, never. Just you deliberately misrepresenting again.

Adrian Irving ● 1727d

That's a very black and white view Steve ... just because someone has a car, it doesn't mean they have to use it on every possible occasion.

Andrew Jones ● 1727d

A business which is heavily dependent on local custom is not going to prosper if  it annoys the very people it most relies on. Chiswick retail has fared better than most in good part because the local connection has been strengthened during the pandemic. High street retail has been far more damaged by our car dependency than it has benefitted. But now while traffic along the High Road has halved, retail has rebounded.

Tom Pike ● 1726d

Going to the cinema is not like going to the local newsagents and is dependent on people coming  from some distant over and above a small catchment of locals.Encouraging people to leave the car behind is  laudable however directly connecting  the drop in  traffic with a rebound in retail is misleading as you choose to ignore the other factors that has helped retail start to struggle back on its feet, hardly what most would call a rebound.

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

Isn't that what has happened in France?

Philippa Bond ● 1726d

There are other cinemas close by in Richmond, Barnes, Shepherds Bush, Acton, and Brentford so its catchment area is pretty limited.You are downplaying the success of retail in Chiswick. There hasn’t been this low a vacancy rate on the High Road for many years prior to the pandemic. Chiswick’s vibrancy was even cited in evidence to parliament:https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/covid19/2021/07/15/britains-high-streets-are-an-intrinsic-part-of-the-social-and-economic-fabric-of-our-cities/The resulting select committee’s report, just published, echoes my earlier comments:Providing convenient and reliable means of accessing high streets is key to maximising their use.• While we recognise that some provision of parking to access high streets and town centres is necessary for accessibility reasons, strategies for high streets should seek to minimise car use and increase public transport and active travel.• The Government should embed the accessibility of high streets by public transport—by people of all characteristics and from all backgrounds—in transport policy.https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/8172/documents/83568/default/

Tom Pike ● 1726d

I see I have to remind you how off the mark you were on the number of vacant shops. Trading is better than could have been hoped for but definitely not a rebound. Because of less traffic? Really?I know you prefer to support your argument from third party reports trawled from the internet however if you took time to actually speak to retailers you would discover that they are far from being out of the woods,  not rebounding into secure profit and free of indebtedness."PROVIDINING CONVENIENT and reliable means of accessing high streets is key to maximising their use." With that we can agree, not restricting access as proposed.Again, you ignore the other businesses, particularly the four specialist restaurants in the area that will take a direct hit on the bottom line at a time they are struggling to attract nervous customers.

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

Am I missing something?Surely this is a diispute between two sets of car owners: those who want to park their vehicles outside their homes, versus those who want to drive into Chiswick to visit the cinema.While LBH has (for once?) come down on the side of the local W4 residents, without any obvious demur by the cinema, which appears to want to maintain good relations with its neighbours.Or have I got this all wrong, and it's actually all the fault of those lycra-clad cycling hooligans?Again.

Richard Cathcart ● 1726d

LBH is continually coming down on the side of the local W4 residents. It's just that there is a minority that is over-represented on this forum but entirely unrepresented in any way in the real world that will never accept it. Inducing fewer cars into Chiswick is great for all W4 residents. It's very simple.  Which is why this forum continues to be so perplexed.

Paul Campbell ● 1726d

No issue on my side: vacancies are down are down on the High Road. Are you suggesting otherwise?The evidence to the Select Committee came from many retailers. Their conclusion was clear and stated explicitly: free parking is not the way forward.

Tom Pike ● 1726d

Isn't all this argument partly why road pricing is being discussed.  People who own cars often use them more than they need to and drive those short journeys they don't need to and so clog up the roads. "I've got a car so I might as well use it."

Philippa Bond ● 1726d

"Their conclusion was clear and stated explicitly: free parking is not the "only" way forward."Was the word only missed out by any chance?Anyway I am still keen to read how you managed to equate a halving of traffic on CHR, from when you don't say btw, to a "rebound" in retail."No issue on my side: vacancies are down are down on the High Road. Are you suggesting otherwise?" No, what I was pointing out was that you badly miscalculated total vacancies by forgetting the Goldhawk Rd to Chiswick Lane section making your 'evidence' misleading yet again.

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

Adrian, if I may, of course Tom omits pertinent bits and bobs along the way.How better to explain his wielding the Barnes Community Association newsletter about improved business but forgetting to mention the bit where, as a community, they re-engineered the streetscape and increased the amount of parking. Also let's not forget Tom thinks construction is not construction. But again, as the sole trader in the room, I can say unequivocally you're a absolutely correct the catchment for all businesses in Chiswick, but particularly something like the cinema, relies upon luring those from outside W4. I can also tell you that with the recent tax restructuring this year taxes are about 25% of what they were. So new businesses have the benefit of factoring that into their start-up costs whereas existing businesses still have yet to dig out from that burden let alone the burdens foisted on us by the pandemic. Another pertinent fact gone missing in Tom's representations.

David Lesniak ● 1726d

To be clear (I'm pretty sure my Campbell decoder ring is working properly but feel free to pitch in) Paul is thankful LBH has created his private gated community but he's livid they did the same elsewhere in Chiswick?

David Lesniak ● 1726d

To quote from the evidence presented to the select committee, and cited Chiswick by name:“the future well-being of the high street or any mixed-use inner city neighbourhood will not be secured – as some have suggested – by providing free parking and reversing the trend towards sustainable mobility.” And to quote from the report’s conclusions:“strategies for high streets should seek to minimise car use and increase public transport and active travel.”You do not dispute vacancies are down, footfall is up and far fewer cars are travelling down the High Road. Of course there are many factors that have contributed to Chiswick’s retail rebound, but to argue that it has relied on more people driving to the High Road would be quite contrary to the evidence.

Tom Pike ● 1726d

"but to argue that it has relied on more people driving to the High Road would be quite contrary to the evidence."There you go again Tom. When did I or anyone else say this?. That's right---never. What I said was business needs every customer it can get at the moment,  not only the cinema but the good number of restaurants in the area.The sound bites you keep quoting are all very laudable but are some distant from the here and now, however I agree they are something to aim for.Still waiting for the 50% decline to the rebound explanation btw.

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

OK I will correct myself.Daivd did say business needed people as customers from out of the immediate area. He should know better than most.

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

“The sound bites you keep quoting are all very laudable but are some distant from the here and now, however I agree they are something to aim for.”They are recommendations for immediate action, and I’m surprised you  have overlooked the connection with what is happening in Chiswick: free parking has been withdrawn on Christmas Eve, market space is prioritised above parking space, and High Road parking is removed in favour of active travel. All are  in line with these policy recommendations from the all-party select committee. It is indeed laudable that Chiswick is at the leading edge of rolling back on our car dependency to the benefit of its retail and that this success is being recognised at the national level. While Chiswick has much to be proud of over the last year, we can only expect more of the same in 2022 thanks to this growing consensus. In contrast the naysayers will just be sliding further into irrelevance.

Tom Pike ● 1726d

"I've got a car so I might as well use it."Philippa,  I think that may have been true about 5 years ago but, now that everyone has been made aware that Global Warming is destroying the planet so rapidly, do you think any sensible or responsible person would have that view?  Especially since the first lockdown that people were in fact grateful that they were allowed to get out and WALK for an hour a day, many realised that cars weren’t always necessary to get around.  I observe that many obese people still use their cars for just about everyone but that is probably because they are inherently lazy! That MAY be why they are fat!If the government tackled fatness in this country, wouldn’t it reduce car usage?

Steve Taylor ● 1726d

OK now I done with your diversions. The fact remains that these particular restrictions will damage business at quite the wrong time, probably dreamed up by the same people that  closed TGT and Fishers Lane at the same time, only to have to back peddle smartish.What I want to hear now is how you equate 50% drop in traffic with the rebound in retail.Third time of asking btw.

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

Opps!OK, now I AM done......

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

Opps!OK, now I AM done......

Adrian Irving ● 1726d

Car counts on the High Road dropped from just over 8000 in 2018 to 4400 last year. In contrast compared to 2015 footfall on the High Road has increased by 10% on weekdays and 30% at the weekend. The rebound in retail in Chiswick has not been built on more people driving to Chiswick to shop, but rather more locals shopping locally rather than driving to shop further afield.

Tom Pike ● 1726d

So Tom, let me get this straight - you just mentioned a "statistic" about car counts over a four-year period, half of which occurred during the pandemic where entire sectors of the economy were closed, people were forced to work from home and schools were shut. And given people were at home, communities the world over saw an increase of footfall in local shopping because...wait for it...people were home during the day! I'd say you forgot the most pertinent piece of the puzzle: the rebound is because the daytime population has increased all because of the pandemic. Whether that pattern persists remains to be seen once workers ease into whatever the new normal is. I can tell you this, though, we saw some of our daytime trade slip because customers were returning to their offices a few days here and there before Omicron came along. They stopped coming for their morning coffees and they stopped working from here and buying lunch while at it.

David Lesniak ● 1725d

Thank's Tom. To me this looks like another case of third party information trawled from the web then adding two and two together and making three. David's summary is far more plausible.

Adrian Irving ● 1725d

Back to the OP's point which is in essence if you restrict access to shops, restaurants, cinemas or pretty much anything  then customer numbers will fall. On that I hope we can all agree.As we know many people are avoiding public transport for other than essential journeys which alone must have a negative effect on customer numbers.As we know people are avoiding enclosed public entertainment venues. I myself had tickets to see Sound of Music at Riverside Studios but decided not to go.As we know many businesses are deep in debt and need every customer they can at the moment.So set aside all the statistics suggesting that these restrictions will have little or no impact on the restaurants, cinema shops and apply common sense.Not previously mentioned is the impact on residents that have family and friends that wish to visit in the evening or Sundays. They will now have to pay or park some distance away. This is yet another badly though through example of Hounslow's sledgehammer/nut "solutions" .

Adrian Irving ● 1725d

Not previously mentioned is the impact on residents that have family and friends that wish to visit in the evening or Sundays. They will now have to pay or park some distance away.Plenty of other councils have visitor parking schemes - don't know if this is something that Hounslow have in place anywhere though.

Andrew Jones ● 1725d

Surely this is yet another case of “LBH is continually coming down on the side of the local W4 residents”, and the vast majority of Chiswick are cheering it on. Or is someone stretching their knicker elastic of incredulity, to snapping point?

Russell Pearson ● 1725d

Andrew, Hounslow visitor parking permits work out at just under 80p per hour. The maximum difference the extended hours of control will make to the cost of visitor parking will be £1.60, Monday to Saturday, and £4 on Sundays.

Robert Fish ● 1725d

You’re not actually disagreeing with me! The pandemic produced an increased daytime population due to work from home who rather than drive elsewhere increasingly chose to shop locally. It’s a direct demonstration that our local retail is not dependent on people driving to shop here.Of course if in the longer term we just return to previous travel patterns, retail will fall back accordingly. But we know that’s already not happening: while traffic in London as a whole has returned to prepandemic levels, it is still 50% down on the High Road, and retail has continued to recover.

Tom Pike ● 1725d

Pop down to your local gym and have a look at all the cars in the car park. I'm sure some of them could have walked there from home.It's ironic that some people drive to the gym to do exercise.

Andrew Jones ● 1725d

Russell, forget the cinema for a moment and consider the five hospitality venues in the immediate area. Despite Tom's assertions that they can rely on locals many people will travel some distant to dine out. I very much doubt many will come on the bus or train at the moment. Do you think they will be cheering these measures on? Be careful what you wish for.

Adrian Irving ● 1725d

It's possible to separate out the effect from work-from-home by looking at weekday and weekend footfall. Comparing footfall on the High Road for June this year with June 2015, it is up 31% on Saturdays compared to 9% on Tuesdays. In addition footfall is now 29% higher on Saturdays relative to Tuesdays while it was only 7% higher in 2015. The fact that footfall has increased more on a Saturday and there is more weekend compared to weekday footfall cannot be explained by work from home.

Tom Pike ● 1725d

Indeed, as one disgruntled local spouted“I'm on one of the affected roads and certainly didn't vote for this.”

Russell Pearson ● 1725d

"The fact that footfall has increased more on a Saturday and there is more weekend compared to weekday footfall cannot be explained by work from home"Except, Tom, we can explain it as a consequence of borders being closed and not everyone being able to travel as they once did. Nice to see you budging toward a more holistic assessment, though.

David Lesniak ● 1725d

Russell,can I infer from your reply that you just don't care? Forgive me if I am wrong.

Adrian Irving ● 1725d

That's rather what I was suggesting in the first place, with more local active travel rather than driving to shop further afield contributing to the recovery in local retail.

Tom Pike ● 1725d

It's ironic that some people drive to the gym to do exercise.No it is not or at least not for some people.  When it is cold, wet and miserable out and a 15+ minute walk to the gym many will take the car.  It is better to get some exercise than none.  Also not everyone at a gym is young and healthy.  The gym I go to has a large proportion of older, dare I say it even elderly, users some of whom may not be able to walk even in Summer to the gym - I still admire their commitment to seeking to keep some level of fitness, and I hope I still have that dedication when I am their age

Justin Stephenson ● 1724d

responding to-It's ironic that some people drive to the gym to do exercise.Justin Stephenson explained" No it is not or at least not for some people."It's the same with "park runs" sometimes encountered while walking in the park. In theory there's no reason why these people couldn't simply run around the park on their own. Which some runners possibly also do as well. But doing so in the company of other people in an organised format, gives some people an extra incentive. While again apparently, there's a need for stewards and marshals positioned around the course to shout encouragement.And yes the start/finish line isn't usually too far away from the car park, as it happens michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1724d

Many drive to walk pets together as they don't feel safe alone.

Janice Evans ● 1724d

Indeed. Personal safety may be a reason some people prefer to use gyms as well; as not everyone necessarily feels safe walking or running around on their own.michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1724d