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Hi Loraine,I never questioned your view that those at fault in road traffic accidents should be held accountable. I’d contest your view (if indeed this is what you are saying) that ALL people at fault involved in road traffic accidents should be prosecuted, as our courts would soon grind to a halt. If the prosecution is in the public interest than of course it should go ahead but where a prosecution is unlikely to succeed and the offence is a trivial one I see little benefit in proceeding with a prosecution and I say that whether the offender is a pedestrian, cyclist or motorist.I don’t know your views on the social and environmental impact of motorised traffic and I never claimed to.What I am pretty sure of, is that you have never posted any link to articles that are critical of Car drivers or the impact of cars on the environment whereas you always seem quick to show your support of those posts and articles that portray (or seek to portray) cyclists in bad light.I have made the assumption that you would agree that unnecessary car use has a negative effect on the environment. Like you said, I don’t know this but I would find it hard to think anyone could make a convincing argument against this proposition.My personal opinion is that unnecessary car use should be discouraged for the benefit of the wider populace but I suspect you (like many) don’t subscribe to this viewpoint and it’s a free country so of course people are entitled to their viewpoints.

Andrew Jones ● 1729d

Nora Watkins explained" The second quote you posted in your comment is in response to a post that Loraine made to me. "The post I quoted being  " You're unrepenting, self-righteous, aggressive, argumentative, bad-tempered, and unable to accept the slightest criticism."As always I stand to be corrected. But nothing I've seen posted in this thread by LP, eitherdirected towards you or towards anyone else would seem to justify such a tirade of insults.So just so as to be clear would you care to quote the remarks directed towards you by LP to which you take such exception ? As from what I can see all of LP's responses to bothyourself and others have been both measured and polite.Nora Watkins further explained" I do believe that Loraine is provocative and unfortunately the responses will reflect that."Among well mannered people at least, provocative argumemtsare met with provocative responses couched in similar terms. Not with a string of insults.and then went on..."I also complained about the use of the word “murder” about the removal of the tree"That thread and choice of words "murder" was chosen by Claire Moran and is a good example of "hyperbole". " An exaggerated statement or claim not meant to be taken literally but simply used for rhetorical effect."In the past I got into a protracted scrapewith a poster who's scant acquaintance with probability indicated he seemingly hadn't even passed "A" level maths. Now I'm having to contend with posters whose seeming unfamiliarity with common figures of speech, would seem to indicate they never passed "O" level English either. As to LC's contribution to that thread  quote:Tragic to read this, but suspect the likes of Messrs Campbell, Pike, Saper will see this as an Eco Victory.Sadly they forget that Plane trees absorb toxins, and producing bicycles do the opposite. Just putting another perspective on the horizon .unquote:Which *please note* rather than insult Messrs Campbell, Pike, Saper etc merely points out a potential contradiction in their position. Where on the one hand they're claiming to be lowering pollution (and saving the planet in the process), while on the other they're chopping down trees in order to achieve their ends.You do see the contradiction I take it ?As it happens certain of the "criticisms" directed atLP could be *better* directed at certain proponents of CS9.  Who do indeed show themselves to be unrepenting, self-righteous, argumentative, and unable to accept the slightest criticism."michael adams  

Michael Adams ● 1725d

Ed Saper explained:" Loraine's challenge was that the removal of a tree undermined or negated the environmental benefits of the cycle lane."Er no. AFAIAA Loriane has never acknowledged that this or any other cycle lane has ever conferredany environmental benefits at all. All that Loraine pointed out is that chopping down that tree will obviously remove any environmentalbenefit that that particular tree contributed overall.  Nice try, though, but.He then went on..." That is not the case and I provided data in a response above to address that."You provide *inconclusive" data. Firstly your data only covered CO2 emissions, which as you know isa greenhouse gas, rather than a pollutant per se.The role of trees in combating, or not, many of the pollutants resulting from car use is in some cases admittedly controversial - the canopy effectetc. but a proper calculation would probably take a good few pages.The data you quote, and the original press release which was its source covered only the *disputed* percentage increase in bicycle trips. There was no mention of the actual percentage decrease in car journeys; which the reader no doubt was intended to infer would somehow correspond.Which clearly couldn't be the case anyway, as the press release went out of its way to stress bicycleuse by chidren and families. Unless the childrenin question already owned and drove cars of their own which they'd decided to leave at home.Thus your conclusion -" Assuming 1,000 local trips via bike per day on CHR that would have previously done by car"But if these bike trips were being made by families of four among others then that brings it down to say 500 car trips for a start. Whether or not the 1000 trips per day is any more wildly optimistic than other Tfl projections, based on their assumption that they'll be able to persuade people that 60% of their car trips are unecessary and are better made on foot or on bicycles, isagain highly controversial, to say the very least.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 1723d

Nora Watkins explained"I'm afraid you're wrong about posting on other threads Michael,  you need to do more research."Quite possibly. But which other threads are you *currently* posting on ?However, having finally checked I stand corrected as to your having posted regularly before. (See below)  " And now,  because I used the term cyber stalking (quite a common term these days),  you're making untrue accusations about me."And what accusations would those be Nora ? Given your acquaintance with "quite common terms" such as "cyber stalking", why couldn't you be expected to be similarly acquainted with another fairly common term "sock puppet" ?Where is the accusation in simply asking a simple question ? Furthermore why would anyone necessarilyassociate the term "sock puppet" with anything otherthan a perfectly innocuous design of er puppet ?" I'm sure Loraine could help you with that as she seems to be able to find my history on this platform."Nora, *anyone* can find your posting history on this site by using the search facility on the new siteand typing "Nora Watkins" in the Search Forum boxhttps://new.chiswickw4.com/#forumNot that there's any reason why anyone should botherexcept maybe if they consider a particular posterto be being particularly antagonisitic towards them,  for no reason that they can discern.However, the veiled accusation that anyone has done anything underhand in availing themselves of thisinformation, assuming anyone has, is quite simply without foundation I'm afraid.michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1722d

In reference to the removal of the tree, Loraine said:
"Tragic to read this, but suspect the likes of Messrs Campbell, Pike, Saper will see this as an Eco Victory" You quoted this and we discussed whether the tree was removed for a new left filter lane or a cycle lane. You were adamant that the tree was removed for a cycle lane. Thus the question is, does a cycle lane provide an "eco victory" when it includes the removal of a tree which provided an "environmental benefit that that particular tree contributed". Loraine suggests it does not because a tree can absorb toxins. In my earlier answer I focused on CO2 sequestration. To give an example: If the cycle lane results in one school run switching from car to bike - assuming 180g of CO2 per mile, 1.5 mile one way journey (6 miles per day), then over a school year (180 days) that would reduce CO2 emissions by nearly 200KG, equivalent to the annual CO2 sequestration of around 8 mature trees. You don't need 1,000 people a day to switch from a car to a bike, just one family changing one trip of just 1.5 miles could justify a tree removed for a bike lane. You say that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and not a pollutant (some would disagree with you on that point) and thus any environmental benefits of reducing CO2 emissions must be disregarded.
Looking at other particulate pollutants, PM2.5 and PM10 for instance which are interesting because electric cars produce these as well, an average car emits circa 2KG of these particles per year (assuming 10K miles per year) in a roughly 60:40 split of PM10 to PM2.5. The 8 million trees in London are estimated to "trap" between 1,000 to 2,000 tonnes of these particulates per year. Assuming 1,500 tonnes, then an average tree captures just under 0.2KG per year. Taking the school drop example, which would be just over 1,000 miles per year, that would produce just over 0.2KG of fine particulates if driven. Further, these particulates are not permanently trapped and absorbed like gases, they can be re-released.  In answer to the central charge of whether I believe a bike lane is an "Eco victory", even if it includes the removal of a tree, then I would say that I do. Trees provide a lot of environmental benefits and are aesthetically beautiful so should not be removed without good reason and replaced where feasible (I understand 3-4 trees are being planted on CHR to replace the one being removed). The built environment would be more pleasant and healthier if we had fewer cars, fewer car lanes and more trees. As an example, this is an image of the former Electric Theatre from the 1920s with 4 trees lining the pavement outside: The same scene today with one tree remaining: The old bus stop is now redundant and there's space for 2 or 3 trees on the pavement and further space for trees to screen the road and the cycle lane at the end of the floating bus stop.  I hope we use the space to plant them.  

Ed Saper ● 1722d

Loraine,  I'm not deliberately misinterpreting anything that you've written. Our conversation started out reasonably,  until someone pointed out that in using the term "levelling the playing field" you had admitted that you were doing it to get back at those on the other side of the debate (who I gather have posted similar negative stories).  I'm afraid I still believe that,  and my comment "two wrongs don't make a right" still stands. I'm not trying to discredit you, I just don't believe this story was presented for information,  and I believe your early comments back that up. I don't have a "side" in this debate.  I just wanted people to consider that there is a human being involved as I have on other threads.  I don't fully understand the history of this debate and quite frankly,  based what I've witnessed on this forum,  I have no interest in getting involved.  As an older person I don't find the bike lane particularly helpful while navigating CHR,  but the way this debate plays out (including accusations from people that I'm a "sock puppet),  seems to be very personal and angry.  I have tried pointing that out on some of the other threads too,  and now it's coming back to bite me.  I'm not going to respond to Steve directly on his previous comment (he can do his own research into my history).  He and I obviously have a very different point of view.  I think you should treat people well and discuss issues,  he obviously doesn't feel the same way.

Nora Watkins ● 1722d

Ed Saper explainedIn reference to the removal of the tree, Loraine said: "Tragic to read this, but suspect the likes of Messrs Campbell, Pike, Saper will see this as an Eco Victory"Indeed. But Loraine Pemberton never made any claims about any potential benefits of the cycle lane. Which is what you said before.In fact one objection to the cycle lane is that by increasing congestion it *increases* pollution.  ES: "You were adamant that the tree was removed for a cycle lane."A straight answer to a straight question please.If nobody had ever thought of, let alone actuallybuilt a cycle lane in that location, would that treestill be there.Please answer either Yes/Alive................No/Dead  ES:" If the cycle lane results in one school run switching from car to bike....1.5 mile one way journey (6 miles per day),"Firstly and rather unfortunately not all houses and schools are located on the CS9 cycle lane. Many arelocated miles away.So that basically in order to prove your point potentially its going to be necessary for children aged 5 yrs and upwards to be riding around on bicycles possibly in the pouring rain and in the dark for six miles every day." You say that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and not a pollutant (some would disagree with you on that point) and thus any environmental benefits of reducing CO2 emissions must be disregarded."  No I don't! I'm simply pointing out that by concentrating solely on C02 you're avoiding any number of other ecological benefits of trees in order to justify chopping this one down.ES:" The built environment would be more pleasant and healthier if we had fewer cars, fewer car lanes and more trees."Indeed. Which is why many people choose to go and live in the country. Or at least not in close proximity to a main commuter and historical route into one of the largest conurbations (shanty towns favellas etc aside) in the World.michael adams... 

Michael Adams ● 1722d

"Then what did you mean by saying it was levelling the playing field? I’m interested to hear what you think that term means in this context."Hi Nora and welcome to the forum!  You've discovered two things already:1. There are two groups on here, one bunch of Chiswick motorists who think we should use our cars less (AKA Cyclist Scum) and another group of motorists who think they should use them as much as they damn well want, thank you very much!  2. Some people are "JAQ-Offs" - they're "just asking questions" - these are loaded questions, such as the one demanding to know if you are a sock puppet account for the cyclist lobby and you either have to deny that (like you would deny an accusation) and if you don't, they have inferred from your lack of repeated denials that you are one.  It is a trolling tactic and of course if you complain about the "accusations" they act all innocent - "but we're just asking questions, we haven't accused you of anything!".  For the context of the "levelling the playing field" comment, Paul Campbell, King of the Cyclists (not really!) posted this in November 2021:"Ooops - BMW driver kills man on pavement" ***Along with a quote from a news report about a fatal accident in the area.This infuriated the anti-cycling lobby who saw it as a direct assault on their right to maim and kill without consequence ("it could have been any one of us" is a typical refrain).  It is their contention that cycling is incredibly dangerous to pedestrians and other road users, so any reminder that vehicles kill pedestrians on the roads, and in this case the pavement, is seen as harmful to their cause.Loraine quickly posted about Paul and the topic:"his motives for starting this thread are wholly malicious"Steve also posted:"Campbell’s posts are always divisive and intended as such. There is no compassionate motive at all. Not a nice person."***I should add that Paul Campbell didn't actually use the word "Ooops" in his forum post, because to make light of a traffic accident in which someone was hurt or killed doesn't demonstrate much in the way of compassion or basic humanity, and is inappropriate as you pointed out. You won't be surprised to learn that those of us who stood up to them and said the pedestrian was the victim and not the motorist (seriously - we had to point that out!) were not just accused of a lack of empathy, but we were also accused of being racist, neanderthals and other insults.When Loraine posted this thread she would have felt she was "levelling the playing field" because other posters on the other side posted about other accidents involving motor vehicles and this is an accident where the cyclist may have been at fault.  Yes, a broken window isn't the same as a fatality and there's a lack of proportion to this "levelling", but there's no point going there.  You'll note that Loraine is rather over sensitive to the same criticisms she levelled at Paul Campbell.It is unpleasant to see them ganging up on you - I wanted to write something in your support to let you know that it is bullying, despite their best efforts to gaslight you and paint you as the aggressor and themselves as the victims.Their probable intention is to bully you off the forum or at least silence your perceived support for cyclists (although quite possible they're just doing it for the lulz!) - and I do realise you're not a cycling activist and have just got caught in the crossfire.  Like I said, welcome to the forum!

Ed Saper ● 1721d

Paul Campbell" For example, it is a common experience for regular cyclists, particularly in Richmond Park, to have motor vehicles overtake when it is unsafe to do so and then swiftly apply the brakes in order to avoid obstacles."How does that constitute a reason why a cyclist shouldn't maintain a safe braking distance ? If there are deer wandering about or in this case geesethen cyclists should be aware of that possibilityalready. These obstacles don't just appear out of nowhere. He then went on" This is known as MGIF syndrome "Is it really ? The G presumably standing for geese ? And then " Also SMIDSY can apply. Sadly there are also incidents where drivers deliberately brake-check cyclists after overtaking to signal their frustration with the cyclist's riding or even just the fact of their existence on the road in front of them. "In which case the cyclist can move to the right ontothe other carriageway. Any cyclist in that situation should and *can easily* satisfy himself that theoncoming carriagway is empty. If it isn't, then hold back *in all situations*.You see unlike you Paul with your shopping bike I *did* used to ride around Richmond Park regularly - 3 circuits is just under 20 miles - before it was ruined by wannabees, trendies, and born-again saddos.He then went on "It is just as speculative No it isn't. The only possible mitigation for not maintaining a safe braking distance from *any* vehicle in front would include - if the driver/rider of the following vehicle's vision is suddenly impaired - they were hit say by a flying bird directly or on their windscreen - or say they suffered a medical emergency heart attack, sudden cramp in the leg etc etcWhereas in this case the car in front slowed downor stopped. End of story.  " as the examples I have given of how a motorist can be liable for a cyclist hitting the back of their vehicle."Your made up examples show no such thing. The only thing they do show is why certain people should never be encouraged to ride anything other than a shopping bike to their local branch of Sainsbury. Preferably under supervision. michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 1720d

"There used to be a great advert for the Guardian on TV where they portrayed the same incident from several different camera angles and you formed a totally different take as a result." Extract from the mid Nov Duke's Meadow incident below. "1. The oncoming car can be seen from the first frame of the video, but the Galaxy driver decided to overtake anyway.2. The car ahead's brake lights were on from the first frame of the video but Joseph didn't close on that car - in fact the distance increased: Joseph was therefore already braking as the Galaxy driver overtook him, very likely anticipating that the Galaxy driver has misjudged their manoeuvre.3. As the Galaxy moved in on him, Joseph made momentary contact with his right palm on the side of the Galaxy, very likely to slap it to signal his presence, and then returned his hand to the handlebars.4. You can then see the Galaxy drawing ahead as it continued to close the gap to the side of the road, while Joseph braked hard to try to avoid what would inevitably be a collision.5. At this point Joseph was hardly moving forward at all, but the force of the braking to avoid a collision caused him to go over the handlebars, leaving the bike behind him as the following frames show. The fact that Joseph ended up going over the handlebars shows he could not have braked any harder at that point.6. The Galaxy driver continued, despite knowing that they had overtaken and cut off a cyclist, forcing them to brake so hard they ended up going over the handlebars to avoid a collision. Very likely they also heard Joseph slap the side of the car.7. There was no car immediately behind the Galaxy as the last few frames show, so even a glance in the Galaxy's mirror would have given a clear view of Joseph down: the final frame of the video shows an open view through the rear window of the Galaxy a good distance away from Joseph's position down on the ground. "There you have it. A definitive account of what happened. Absolutely no need for any further investigation and all brilliantly deducted from one short video.

Adrian Irving ● 1720d

Steve Taylor responded to"As for his Twitter, he just needs to be liked.”"with " Ain’t gonna ‘appen! " Not by *everyone* but by those he regards as his chosen peer group. That's the point.He's doing his "bit" for the cause, and conspicuously so. Basically while others are tasked with posting outright lies in the form of misleading statistics,his task is to clearly antagonise Onesy supporters in particular, and motorists in general. A cursory examination of his Twitter feed shows every post to be 100% on message - to the extent of exultantly posting photos of roads being dug up to provide cycle lanes. But is also shows the "Prolanes" to be 100% paranoid, to an extent even Joe Stalin would have been proud of. Convinced that the Onesises are engaged in a sinister "conspiracy" against them. They've discovered this apparently, as a result of reading their Facebook pages and comments made by people they take to beOnesie supporters. Of only *I'd* joined Facebook...I could be reading this gibbersh too  Previously I thought Campbell was simply joking around - "having a bit of laugh". But its clear that like the others* he's 100% serious and devoted whole heartedly to the "cause" whatever it asks of him.Marxist Leninism at its finest.They're all a bunch of obssesssives chasing an impossible dream. The whole course of human history has been driven by man's desire to eliminate as muchphysical labour as possible, among the general population at least. Leaving aside a small proportion of fitness enthusiasts. Which has "always" been small. Furthermore they really don't seem to realise,  that in the past, people moved to this country *precisely because* they no longer wanted to have to ride around on bicycles.  In pursuit of which Paul Campbell linked to a photograph of himself riding a woman's bicycle witha basket on the front, presumably owned by some woman he'd just met, carrying a christmas tree to be festooned with decorations and presents for some children,maybe the children of the woman he borrowed the bike off of, or maybe he was on his way to an orphanage. But apart from that...But I will admit to one mistake in all this. Given that Paul Campbell most likely does own a car, given his clearly paranoid state, rather than park outsidethe house he doesn't own and has nothing to do with(curtain twitchers please note) he probably parks it around the corner. michael adams* "the others". I would totally exempt Ed Saper from this. Who appears to be a well-meaning and consientiousperson who is being led astray by a group of dedicated unscrupulous ideologues; however they choose to present themselves. Walk away now, Ed. 

Michael Adams ● 1720d

Janice, I quite agree.  Mums crossing side roads, pushing their prams in front of them, is a fairly constant hazard for drivers turning into side roads off CHR, particularly as most pedestrians fail to look for cars and assume they have right of way.
Under the new Highway Code, pedestrians will indeed have right of way.  It is worrying that so many motorists, including some voices on this forum, have criticised prioritising the safety of vulnerable road users.  
Babies and children in prams are particularly vulnerable on the roads and pavements and some parents put them in helmets — a helmet is sometimes recommended for young kids in jogging strollers — where the parent is jogging while pushing a pram. At our school, I would say about 20% of the kids who arrived on scooters were wearing helmets — it tended to be more common with the younger kids— while almost all kids wore them on bikes.
Some parents put their kids into crawling helmets:
While this may seem like an overreaction to risk, I recall in the 1970s and 1980s many parents used reins — some still do, despite it becoming less socially acceptable — and a family member gifted me a set of (unused!) reins when I had kids.
Some parents can and do get their kids to wear helmets when passengers on a bike: Ultimately the decision to put a child in a helmet is down to the parent — there is no law that mandates a baby wears one when they start to crawl, or that a parent should put their kids in helmets when in a pram, on a scooter or bike.   You might think that's bad parenting to put children at what you perceive is high risk and the law should be changed — as it was when the wearing of seatbelts was mandated in back seats and when child seats in cars were mandated. However, there are arguments that suggest the mandating of seat belts did not substantially reduce fatalities on the roads because it failed to take into account risk compensation — that drivers drove more aggressively and dangerously to take into account the reduced risk of injury or death that a seatbelt provides. Similar arguments are made against mandating helmets for cyclists — that it would result in less focus on segregating traffic and that both cyclists and drivers would behave more recklessly as a result of risk compensation.  While I personally "mandate" helmets for my kids when on a bike, the biggest threat to their safety, with or without a helmet, is being hit by a car or van driven by a distracted or impatient driver and is one reason I support the expansion of cycle lanes as well as modal filters that reduce vehicle traffic on school streets and local routes (LTNs). There appears on the surface to be some contradiction between those who are most fanatical about cyclists wearing helmets, and I refer more to the local residents and members of OneChiswick who came out to heckle the C9 family cycle ride with their helmet criticisms, are also those most strongly opposed to segregated cycle lanes, frequently also citing safety concerns for cyclists using them. In fact there is no real contradiction in this position — those who wish to mandate cyclist helmets and remove cycle lanes seek do so to ensure the priority and entitlement of motorists on the roads and would welcome universal helmet wearing because they wouldn't have to drive so carefully around cyclists, including children in cargo bikes, and the removal of cycle lanes along with the heightened feeling of risk would serve as a disincentive for new cyclists and modal shift.

Ed Saper ● 1718d