Forum Topic

"Car users don't have an inalienable right to public space"

"Quiet residential streets and clean air should not be treated as luxuries"https://www.ft.com/content/56929d0a-2375-40a1-872c-b7fb94d9003fGreat article from Henry Mance in the FT today on transport and public space, Haringey LTNs (there is a lot of good news for the proponents of LTNs this week with many being made permanent around London and other new ones being announced as time and again data shows traffic down inside and on boundary roads) and of course complaints that cycle lanes cause congestion:"Come on, complaining that cycle lanes are clogging your roads is a bit like complaining that a stent is clogging your artery."Quite. If you're feeling a bit uncomfortable about all of this quiet streets and clean air stuff it's probably because you're sitting on a tipping point.

Paul Campbell ● 1749d28 Comments

Neither do bicyclists have an inalienable right to ignore traffic regulations and the needs of others.

John Davies ● 1749d

Here's the Centre for London's reporthttps://www.centreforlondon.org/reader/parking-kerbside-mangement/chapter-2/#boroughs8217-reported-expenditure-on-parking-does-not-cover-costs

David McLoughlin ● 1749d

https://www.ft.com/henry-mance

Russell Pearson ● 1748d

Still got your car Paul?

Maggie Dodge ● 1748d

Interesting link, David. Begs the question what price the cycle lanes could be sold for if developed. They currently generate £0 and given they are gobbling up parking spaces that have been given a value per your link, seems the same maths would apply. No?

David Lesniak ● 1748d

Skim reading through the article it seems to suggest that residents are ‘underpaying’ for the privilege of parking near where they live. Imagine the furore if Hounslow suddenly started to charge car owners the ‘market rate’.But then again CPZs are there for reasons other than just revenue generation aren’t they?

Andrew Jones ● 1748d

Henry Mance  tweeting about whether women knew how few men wash their  hands after a visit to the bathroom 😂

Maggie Dodge ● 1748d

David, I put the direct link to the document as The FT is behind a paywall. When I get time , I'll weigh up the arguments and reply. More generally, car owners, such as myself, have assumed a right to publc space and effectively denied it to, for example, children. That's something we may have to reconsider. On a lighter note mark Steel was visiting Walthamstow on BbC Sounds earlier this week. Home of ' mini-Holland' and William Morris. Worth a listen.

David McLoughlin ● 1748d

Indeed. Parking spaces are hugely important to the economy! “ Parking spaces serve the needs of a wide range of users, including residents, workers, shoppers, visitors, delivery drivers, taxis, and private hire passengers.”

Steve Taylor ● 1748d

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10298487/Owning-car-outdated-20th-century-thinking-transport-minister-Trudy-Harrison-says.htmlOwning a car could become a fad of the past, a government minister claimed this week.Junior transport minister Trudy Harrison, 45, told a sustainability conference owning a car was outdated '20th-century thinking' and the country should move to 'shared mobility' to cut carbon emissions.Ms Harrison, who is also a former parliamentary private secretary to Boris Johnson, said the UK was 'reaching a tipping point where shared mobility in the form of car clubs, scooters and bike shares will soon be a realistic option for many of us to get around.'

Will Watson ● 1748d

Yeah I read that. Mad as a box of frogs.

Maggie Dodge ● 1748d

MaggieAccording to a nearby neighbour of Mr Campbell, yes he does, but that was told to me some weeks back and he may have disposed of it now ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 1748d

Loraine, I love that some of these cycle zealots have cars. Jeremy Vine doesn’t seem as shy about having one in the family, as Paul.  Most of us accept that a car is very much part of the 21st Century. Public transport appears to be getting worse and of course gets caught in the traffic created by cycle lanes and LTNs. I like to be able to change route, can’t do that on a bus unfortunately.Those that want to manage without or share are more than welcome. It’s the cycle zealots who want to dictate how others live.

Maggie Dodge ● 1748d

"Owning a car could become a fad of the past, a government minister claimed this week""Junior transport minister Trudy Harrison, 45, told a sustainability conference owning a car was outdated '20th-century thinking' and the country should move to 'shared mobility' to cut carbon emissions" But my thinking is the opposite. I think that once the network for electric cars in in place and the price of an electric car is affordable and more second hand cars become available on the market and new better batteries are available and cheaper to plug that second hand market the roads will see in my view more cars and vans than ever before.

Julian Pavey ● 1748d

And of course with vehicles going electric the argument that they cause more pollution because of the presence of newly introduced cycle lanes will largely disappear.

Andrew Jones ● 1748d

Not forgetting that if an electric vehicle becomes so popular they will in time come up with some £ charge to control the numbers

Julian Pavey ● 1748d

Maggie, Very true, the ardent cycling faction, and some of their vocal supporters, drive high end cars such Range Rover's, Jaguar's, BMW's, Audi's and Saab's to name a few marques. Of course they are perfectly entitled to do so but should perhaps be careful of not being seen as hypocrites.Although, and to be fair, at least the car owning cyclists are contributing to road maintenance and cycle lane construction.

Loraine Pemberton ● 1748d

I'm not sure how fairness enters into it as I don't own any of those cars, or any car, but still pay towards road maintenance and cycle-lane construction. There was a plan to channel VED into a National Roads Fund, but it's just not happened. VED still goes into the overall revenue pot along with income tax, excise duties, VAT, etc., so anyone who contributes to the pot helps pay for roads and cycle lanes whether or not they own a car or a bike.

Tom Pike ● 1748d

Some keen drivers and car lovers like myself know that transport infrastructure including roads is paid for out of income tax and council tax and that non-car owners are subsidising the external costs of driving for us keen drivers. Polluters pay a polluting tax which should really be a lot higher than it is. Higher fuel duty and per-mile road charging would help with that. As a keen driver, I don't feel that we should have priority over other road users or that driving the shortest route possible is a fundamental and unchallengeable human right. Nor is parking directly outside the dry cleaners. Henry Mance is right that car-users do not have an inalienable right to occupy public space and I am more than happy for more public space to be allocated to people who are not in cars even if that means I have to deal with the inconvenience that causes to me personally. The benefits of clean air and quiet streets are for everybody.

Paul Campbell ● 1748d

Waffle, waffle, waffle.

Maggie Dodge ● 1748d

You're a "keen driver" ? How does that equate with being a dedicated cyclist and supporter of C9T ? Just asking ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 1748d

"Dedicated driver and supporter of car lanes" does sound good too. I should change my Twitter bio. Thanks!

Paul Campbell ● 1748d

Steady Paul, this might be a bit much for the small minded to cope with.

John Hall ● 1748d

'Spots and Leopards' springs to mind...

Loraine Pemberton ● 1748d

I think you're trying to bluff your way out of finally coming out about your driving habit Paul.  It's fine, we drivers understand you have needs.

Maggie Dodge ● 1748d

The Junior Transport Minister who said this,  claimed for mileage on her expenses

Maggie Dodge ● 1747d

With regard to parking, I've mentioned to a variety of councillors and MPs parking in Chiswick is poorly organized. In NYC if you park outside the line you get a ticket. If you use up two spaces instead of one, you get a ticket. To accomplish this the curb would need to be ticked every 20-feet or so. It would do several things: maximize the space available as well as generate funds for those who don't comply. Looked at another way, it might even act as a deterrent for people to use a car at all. Aside from that, I've heard that on some streets families have three cars and they act in concert by rotating their cars in and out of the same spaces to ensure they can park those three cars. Maybe a one car maximum per household makes more sense in an urban environment. Looked at another way, it might even act as a deterrent for people to use a car at all. Sorry, couldn't help myself. I just wanted to make sure that an idea that might lead to reduced car use doesn't go amiss amongst some of those more evangelical (read blinded) advocates.

David Lesniak ● 1747d

Trying to square things up once again and I fall short with Paul's position."I don't feel...driving the shortest possible route is a fundamental and unchallengeable human right" PLUS "benefits of clean air" EQUALS ______? Anybody? Don't get me started on him not dry cleaning his duvet.

David Lesniak ● 1747d