Forum Topic

TfL  breaking the Law!

Having a coffee on the High Road yesterday I noted four unmasked people embark a 267 bus. They were not challenged by the driver!  I thought perhaps they would put masks on once seated. I couldn't see where all of them sat but the two who went upstairs did not put masks on. I did however notice another three people without masks.The next bus that stopped (i didn't see the route number)- similar issues. Three unmasked people got on and were not challenged. Why is TfL allowing this? Surely to operate public transport they are obliged to adhere to the letter of the law?    

Steve Taylor ● 1750d32 Comments

I understand and sympathize with your sentiments, Steve, but having travelled on a couple of buses yesterday (something which I try to avoid these days), I could see that although most people were complying with the rules, there were a small number who didn't. The problem is, what would happen if the driver tried to stop them from boarding? Given the nature of such people (see the current thread about Qanon), at the very least I suspect there would be shouting and obscenity, probably accompanied by such behaviour as spitting through the driver's screen and actual violence. I don't think bus drivers, like shop assistants, are equipped or expected to withstand such aggression. Sadiq Khan (and TfL) may sanctimoniously lay down the rules, but they leave others, on a lower pay grade, to enforce them.

Colin Jordan ● 1750d

Not TfL breaking the law - it's the unmasked passengers.

Andrew Jones ● 1750d

The Law says TfL have to enforce it! The law is the law. The driver could refuse to drive on if people don't observe the law. If people get abusive or violent he should ring the police. That is what they are for.  I was at a show on Broadway in NY and some (Brit) teenagers had their feet over the backs of empty seats in front of them. The usher asked them to sit properly. They refused. The next moment there was an announcement that the show would not start because the police had been called. Everyone cheered! The police came within minutes and evicted the louts. That's how you deal with scum.

Steve Taylor ● 1750d

Which bit of of the law says TfL have to enforce it Steve?

Andrew Jones ● 1750d

Don't be silly, Steve. Bus drivers are not trained or equipped to enforce mask wearing, and would potentially put themselves at risk if they tried to do so. And if you seriously think the police are going to turn up to every bus with a passenger not wearing a mask, then your grip on reality is even shakier than usual. However, you could have boarded the bus and remonstrated with the non-compliant passengers yourself.

Richard Greenhough ● 1750d

Call them norons next time and post back how you get on

Julian Pavey ● 1750d

Is it the law in Broadway theaters that you must not put your feet over the back of the empty seat in front of you ? If so, then I'm surprised the NYPD didn't burst in with guns blazing. That would have shown the loutish scum.I do hope you were wearing a mask at the time, Steve ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1750d

' Sadiq Khan (and TfL) may sanctimoniously lay down the rules, but they leave others, on a lower pay grade, to enforce them.'There is nothing sanctimonious about it. Bus drivers had one of the highest mortality rates from Covid of any job during the first wave of Covid and passengers wearing masks helps protect them. The Mayor's father was a bus driver so it would be surprising if he was not in favour of the measure.Neither TfL nor the Mayor are asking drivers to enforce the rules. My own observation is that levels of mask wearing on public transport are pleasingly high.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 1750d

There's a simple solution.  Form a vigilante group who will ride shotgun on all buses in London, to ensure mask wearing.There appears to be no shortage of likely volunteers on the forum.They will have to be medically qualified, as people with some health conditions are exempt from mask wearing. Also preferably qualified in unarmed conduct, unless actual shotguns are deployed, in which case an escorting ambulance will be deployed.

James Roy ● 1750d

Who were the people employed to fine people for dropping cigarette butts and feeding bread to birds? Was it Kingdom.? They were quite scary looking people, dressed all in black.  They might be better employed boarding buses and trains to ask people to comply. I’ve seen quite a few without masks on both trains and buses.

Maggie Dodge ● 1750d

Don't be such a wimp, Taylor; plus people need all the Omicron they can get. Even Putin calls it an airborne vaccine, it's so mild..

Michael Brown ● 1750d

“ Rapid infection rate of omicron Covid variant is causing concern, as UK braces for 1 million cases”And TfL aren’t helping by allowing non mask wearing morons on public transport!!!

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

There's not that much they can do. Because I'd imagine that any able bodied masked wearing passengers already on the bus who were already late for work, would probably want to join in as wellSo you'd end up with rows of buses all parked up at the side of the road with fights going on inside, and nothing moving at all.Which might provide a bit of entertainment for any passing pedestrians, but that would be about it.    michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 1749d

“ The problem is, what would happen if the driver tried to stop them from boarding?”I would think the drivers have been trained to act exactly the same way as if someone tries to board without scanning and Oyster card.  Likewise supermarkets should treat people not wearing masks the same as people who exit without paying for goods. Both are illegal acts.  I suspect though that a fair percentage of non mask wearers on public transport or in shops are simply people who have forgotten to put it on or bring one. I can’t see the problem in at least challenging these people. At least one supermarket has assured shoppers that if they forgot to bring a mask, staff will provide one. This is all simply about reducing the spread of the virus and the legal obligations of TfL.  Isn’t that what all decent people want?

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

For a start there are more maskless people in supermarkets than there are security guards.And in any case, if you've ever seen any of them on the news its clear that theres simply no reasoningwith these people. It would be like trying to win an argument with Michael Brown. And if you taser them,its only afterwards you find out that the one *you* tasered has a heart condition, despite the tattoos piercings and leather jacket. You've put him in intensive care and he's going to sue you for millions.  "Isn’t that what all decent people want?"All decent people want a lot of things, an end to poverty in the world, world peace. Whether they'reever going to be practically achievable is entirelyanother matter.michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1749d

Like a year ago before law changed i would think its the same Bus driver said “There are no police to enforce this, there are no revenue inspectors to enforce this, and, as drivers, we’ve been told we’re absolutely not to enforce it or question it.” Try calling the police for a minor situation and your wait some time before you do or dont get a responce. And it would have to be a situation above not wearing for anyone to attend TFL have no money so they are saying they may have to stop bus routes and close down some of the tube network unless a gvmt bailout . So they are hardly going to have huge numbers of TFL  officers employed to enforce this.

Julian Pavey ● 1749d

"It would be like trying to win an argument with Michael Brown."Or with Steve Taylor. Some people just won't see reason.

Richard Greenhough ● 1749d

"Like a year ago before law changed i would think its the same"I would think then that TfL has had a year to get its act together and support its bus drivers!

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

"For a start there are more maskless people in supermarkets than there are security guards."Yes, but to reiterate, I suspect that many of those are decent people who simply forgot. There are security guards at every entrance. Surely they could simply ask the question?? "And in any case, if you've ever seen any of them on the news its clear that theres simply no reasoning with these people."Yes, they have shown a few instances on the news but its called sensationalism. Its what journalists do!! I suspect there would be much more acceptance rather than resistance. We won't know unless they are asked. "And if you taser them, its only afterwards you find out that the one *you* tasered has a heart condition, despite the tattoos piercings and leather jacket. You've put himin intensive care and he's going to sue you formillions."Mmmmm. Really?  Do you honestly think that people with heart or lung conditions would be risking Covid by intentionally not wearing a mask and will push it get to the point of being tasered? Also, I was not aware that supermarket security staff have the authority to taser anyone. In fact not even all full time Police Officers have had the training or authority. Hence I don't buy this argument - sorry Michael "All decent people want a lot of things, an end to poverty in the world, world peace. Whether they're  ever going to be practically achievable is entirely another matter."That point is very true, but my point, Michael, is that it is not an excuse for doing nothing. We won't know what is achievable unless we try and sitting back and succumbing to the forces of evil is not answer. Its a cop out in my book.

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

The mayor has been knocking on the goverments door to make it actual law and illegal not to have a mask on within the TFL network. Thats ok but now they have TFL dont have any resources to impose this other than targeting bus stops and stations on a random basis in numbers

Julian Pavey ● 1749d

There are many unable to wear a mask due to medical reasons, thereare some very good face shields available now which could be used onbuses.

Janice Evans ● 1749d

Steve Taylor still hasn't explained how TfL are breaking the law.Granted they aren't enforcing the law, but's that's a different kettle of fish, and entirely understandable.

Andrew Jones ● 1749d

“ Rapid infection rate of omicron Covid variant is causing concern, as UK braces for 1 million cases”

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

As the sole shopkeeper in the room, I thought I'd weigh in. Many of our customers are from the bus garage and we speak to them about this often. We also speak to other shop keepers about their experiences.With respect, Steve, your hysteria does nobody any good including you. It also seems a bit naive. You seem to fail to recognize the role of personal choice or individual behaviors.Drivers and other so-called front line workers have no legal ability to enforce the law. We cannot detain people, for example. Wagging a finger doesn't exactly get people to sit and wait for the police to arrive. And as Julian says, try calling Met Police when there is an issue and you will find the wait time on the phone let alone the wait time for response is about an hour or more start to finish. When challenged to comply, people can get aggressive and dig in their heels making matters worse. We answer to ourselves as opposed to supervisors or union reps so we can address the situation differently than someone whose livelihood may be jeopardized. There are plenty among us who believe they are entitled to do whatever they please with our without COVID. They will always believe they are superior or better or different and above all manner of regulation. Add to that batch those who believe they are somehow immune to any virus because they are simply just that special. Or healthy. Or strong. Or cautious. Supposedly. And then you get those who defy anything and wear it as a badge of honor and use it as a bragging right of sorts. They tend to come down on us because we can't oblige them with respect when it is they who can't be bothered to respect anything or anyone around them. Including the reality of the situation.TfL is not responsible for omicron or the predicted surge. The drivers are not the enemy. Maybe try telling the drivers how much you appreciate their trying in the face of such adversity and see where that may lead? In a way, hyperbole such as yours is contributing to the situation just as much as what you perceive to be negligence on the part of others.

David Lesniak ● 1748d

Nothing hyperbolic in my post. I have posted based on my observations whilst sitting in a coffee shop.  I personally haven’t travelled on a bus for many, many months. I prefer to walk, cycle or use my car.  The point I try to make is that I feel sorry for the people who are forced to use public transport, due to their own circumstances, and from my observation I was dismayed to see that it cannot be classed as a safe environment despite the Government’s attempt to make it so by bringing in new legislation. By ‘safe’ I obviously mean ‘within reason’.

Steve Taylor ● 1748d

I agree completely with what you say, David. I made similar points in an earlier posting and received short shrift for it, almost as though I were supporting the non-masked idiots. If every driver refused to drive on until the unmasked clown got off, every bus in London would be sitting stationary at the stop, since you can guarantee that every bus has at least one idiot refusing to wear a mask on board. As I said, Khan and TfL decree it, but then leave underlings to enforce it.

Colin Jordan ● 1748d

I would hope that nobody supports 'unmasked idiots', as you call them, except perhaps other unmasked idiots. However, it appears that some on this thread are happy just to shrug their shoulders and live with this form of  anarchy; or perhaps die with it!As with all business, commercial or government, military or policing, there there those at the top of the chain who 'decree' and the underlings who are paid to enforce. Kahn is not wrong to decree. He is legally bound by government legislation to 'decree' as you put it and TfL are bound to 'enforce'.  It's their problem how they do it. The TfL management is certainly paid enough to do their jobs.

Steve Taylor ● 1748d

TfL are enforcing Mask wearing using their enforcement officers and in partnership with the police. As you well know Steve, they don't have the resources to be able to engage with every single person who isn't wearing a mask.Oh, and TfL aren't breaking the law, the people who aren't wearing masks when the law says they should be are the ones breaking the law.

Andrew Jones ● 1748d

Seems TfL get the blame for all sorts.

Janice Evans ● 1748d

But by your logic, Steve, there would then be a subsidy for front-line workers to enforce a new duty put upon them. This so-called decree is a new job requirement which should then come with compensation - again to follow what I think is your logic. A requirement which puts them in harms way. One that would require the same training new police cadets get when earning a badge.

David Lesniak ● 1747d

Totally agree, David. That would be a start. Nobody said Covid would come cheap. All businesses have had to adapt, some at HUGE expense. Some has been absorbed and others have been passed on to customers. You are in the front line so you know all about it and will have adjusted your business plan accordingly.

Steve Taylor ● 1747d

Were you in Yorkshire at the weekend, Steve ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-leeds-59641767

Richard Greenhough ● 1744d