Forum Topic

Just do as you're told!

All of the usual suspects who rush to defend Johnson regardless of what he gets up to, are conspicuous by their absence from this Forum. Don't tell me that even they think this latest kick in the teeth from on high is too much even for them?

Vanessa Smith ● 1751d85 Comments

Surely everyone loves a fun Crimbo party? What's the harm in a bit of a knees up at Christmas? Nothing anyone should resign over. Oh.

Alan Clark ● 1751d

In politics, it's not what happens but lying about it that gets them in the end - except in this case it's taking rather longer than usual.

Peter Evans ● 1751d

My two pennorth, is he's being set-up.As always I stand to be corrected on this, but It's funny how rumours of a party only startedcirculating in the pres a short time before the footage emerged.Although the video refers to rumours of a partycirculating *at the time*, I for one can't remember any. So possibly the rumoured party was simply an "in-joke"; if in somewhat bad taste.  Clearly somebody came across this footage quite recently. While somebody else realised what a goldmine this could be, if somebody first started circulating rumours about a party to the press.Presumably only Tories had access to the footage or even knew of its existence. And so presumably this is being used against Johnson by one ofhis rivals for the leadership ... or maybe by Cummings as final act of revengemichael adams

Michael Adams ● 1751d

Vanessa, will you be doing as you're told?

John Davies ● 1751d

Well they're saying Allegra has been thrown under the bus by Boris, not sure that's the case. Jacob Rees-Mogg was making inappropriate jokes about parties and social distancing at some Institute gathering,  that I thought were easily as bad and if Allegra resigned, then he should too.  Boris of course will ride it out as he always does.

Maggie Dodge ● 1751d

Jacob has said many ludicrous things but he gets away with it, the old smooth hound. Allegra was exposed - perhaps a little unfairly as she was the only one on film! - and of course it was inevitable she had to go. Don't know why it waited until this afternoon. And - oh - she was pushed. No question.

Simon Temple ● 1751d

'Vanessa, will you be doing as you're told?'Not that my conduct is a matter of national debate - but - like millions of others I have done as we have been asked to do. Fully jabbed, observed the lockdown rules, wore and continue to wear a mask when out in public, and have not seen friends in just about two years. Not been on a holiday and certainly no trips to test my eyes.

Vanessa Smith ● 1751d

Up and down the country was a partying fest wasn't it? It's that mantra that rankles where it's said 'if they party so can we' and, therefore, blame of 'commoners parties' is brought back on toffs because they partied in No.10. It's all hogwash. I'm a Brexiteer who never ever followed Johnson or gave a fig about what the ERG said and who accuses Jacob Rees-Mogg to be a complete cordwangler.

Bobbie Carnegie ● 1751d

Up and down the country was a partying fest wasn't it?Not that I remember! Anyway, you WERE a Brexiteer, surely? It's been five years!

Simon Temple ● 1751d

So you are essentially saying that you were fooled by these charlatans. Or can you provide evidence of the benefits of Brexit ?

Alan Clark ● 1750d

Oh well, if we’re on to Brexit again, here’s yesterday’s news. Does anyone have ANYTHING positive to say about Brexit?“ US lifts tariffs on EU steel and aluminium but they remain in place for Britain. It is exactly the opposite of what we were promised on US trade by Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg et al....”

Steve Taylor ● 1750d

I never said I was a Brexiteer.

Simon Temple ● 1750d

I'd put money on it was Dominic Cummings hopefully final act of revenge. He would do will to remember that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...his  Barnard Castle excursion

Loraine Pemberton ● 1750d

I'd just like to add - that whilst some Tory M.Ps are getting steamed up about Plan B, there is a far bigger threat to our rights and freedoms coming from Priti Patel's Borders Bill, now that's something really worth getting hot under the collar about.

Vanessa Smith ● 1750d

I smell a rat in all this. Who filmed the mock speech, and leaked it to ...ITV? Remember the film of Matt Hancock embracing an aide behind an open door? I'm no apologist for Johnson, but isn't it just possible that the Stratton video was not about a real party, but a spoof on what was being rumoured? Johnson still denies there was any party, but he wasn't there, and his persistent denials may reflect his genuine belief. I expect to receive scorn for saying this, but, again, Cummings would be capable of orchestrating such a scandal.

Arnold Saxton ● 1750d

I think they’re saying 7 parties now. Cressida useless Dick’s Met aren’t investigating because there’s no evidence. 😳. I’d be surprised if they’ve looked and even more surprised if there isn’t oodles of evidence!

Maggie Dodge ● 1750d

It wouldn't have been 'leaked' to ITN as such. ITN would have had a feed of the presser available to them from the moment the camera was on, and they were probably recording it from the time the pictures first appeared.The amount of evasiveness that various people have shown when directly questioned about whether there was a party makes it's extremely difficult to believe that there wasn't one.

Andrew Jones ● 1750d

'Johnson still denies there was any party, but he wasn't there, and his persistent denials may reflect his genuine belief. I expect to receive scorn for saying this, but, again, Cummings would be capable of orchestrating such a scandal.'The problem is Johnson has such a chequered track record of outright lying is it any wonder no-one believes him now? If indeed it was Cummings - in his position I'd probably do the same, revenge is a dish best eaten cold!

Vanessa Smith ● 1750d

"The problem is Johnson has such a chequered track record of outright lying". But that applies to most politicians surely, so nothing unusual. Remember how to tell if politicians are telling lies? It's when their lips move.

Brian Coyle ● 1750d

The rumour is that he was at some of these, and gave speeches 🤷‍♀️

Maggie Dodge ● 1750d

It becoming very clear that there were parties and parties at a time when people were being told not to socially gather. And at a time when hospitals were being overwhelmed, NHS staff were massively stretched and people were dying of Covid. Worse than having the parties, for me, the video of the giggling attempts to muster a defense of these parties was damning. It shows the mindset in place in the team at Downing Street: one rule for us and another for the oiks; we can bluff and bluster our way out of trouble if people find out; we don't care if the bluster is patently full of lies as any bluster will do. I wonder where this group people learnt these behaviours from?

Alan Clark ● 1750d

It was presumably a training exercise filmed by the Conservative Central Office Media Unit.Assuming they have one.They will be filming people all the time. Such asdoing mock interviews with "hostile" interviewersin a studio mock-up. And then sit going over the tapes with them afterwards, showing how they could perform better.michael adams...

Michael Adams ● 1750d

Ok, having read more about it it does sound like a 'leak' of recorded video that ITN obtained recently, rather than something they've had for a long time.People should know that any mic or camera might be being recorded, though this one must have been a shock, surfacing so long after the event.

Andrew Jones ● 1750d

Irrespective of what we think of Boris, Does anyone truly believe another party would have come out unscathed after having to deal with Brexit and Pandemic. The press are the real issue here and are really only interested in scandalising every situation. We should be concentrating on what scientists and medics are saying. From the outset my thoughts were, that this situation should not a political one. No one party should have control over what happens.  This is a global issue. The press are gunning for Boris. Other leaders from other parties would have faced the same All the press in this country seem to do is inflame, incense and ignite discontent. I hate our press with avengence, they do nothing to unite our country, instead they are intent on ruining lives of individuals.

Alina Dansord ● 1749d

On the subject of the press. I do have one task for them Has Michael Brown been vaccinated?

Alina Dansord ● 1749d

'having to deal with Brexit and Pandemic'?The pandemic was & is a massive challenge and I'm sure that no government would have handled it perfectly. Other governments might have heeded the NHS planning about pandemic preparation or not spent untold billions on wasted test and trace. But no doubt other mistakes would have been made.Brexit is kind of different, is it not? It is entirely the outcome of this government, completely the goal of this PM, and he (and the tories) are 100% to blame for Brexit. Brexit is a political issue. And the press are generous in their lack of criticism of this mess. You could not be more wrong to include Brexit it your post.

Alan Clark ● 1749d

Alan I stand corrected for mentioning Brexit in my post. I should have worded differently. I still hate the press.

Alina Dansord ● 1749d

Indeed Brexit is 100% the failure of the Conservative party.

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

My two pennorthIts not unlikely that similar groups of Yuppies (descriptive not pejorative)will have been holding similar parties all over London. The closest they come to "ordinary people other than going back home for Christmas is as statistics in order to mould policy or to market things to them.Think the Chris Addison character Ollie, and his chums in "The Thick of It". There's nothing unusual or particularly reprehensible about that.Again the idea that people in public life, everyone from politicians to artists writers and business menneed to be paragons of virtue and never say a word out turn, ever, so as to "set an example" simply isn't practical, There's never been any necessary connection all between somebodys ability to do a good job and any moral failings they might have. Although ideally they should try and not get caught. Its probably their getting caught rather than any moral failings as such which would seem to reflect more on their judgement. But there again...Another big victim of social media and the internet generally is hypocrisy. Because without a good dose of hypocrisy to oil the wheels, human societies simply couldn't function. Of course people have always said one thing and done the other; while anyone who found them out, could point the finger adopting a tone of self righteous moral indignation. Until they themselves maybe ended up on the front page of the NOW themselves.Only nowadays with social media its far more likely to come to light, and that much quicker.After all, the John Major, Edwina Currie affair only came to light, after she wrote about it in her memoirs.Mrs. Doyle. " Can you imagine it Father.... just picture it in your minds eye..."      As to the papers, and the heart rending stories " My son died while..." etc. Those papers care even less about these people than do the yuppies and simply use them for their own purposes. Wringing out every last drop of tears before moving onto the next heart rending story.  michael adams

Michael Adams ● 1749d

No, Brian.  This is just one of those lazy cliché’s that, if believed, leads to dangerous apathy.  Not all politicians are the same, not all politicians are dishonest.  Two exemplary ones that spring to mind are David Amess and Jo Cox.  I could mention numerous others.Boris Johnson is in a league of his own when it comes to serial lying.  If this is not obvious to you then I recommend that you read Peter Oborne’s The Assault on Truth: Boris Johnson, Donald Trump and the Emergence of a New Moral Barbarism.  It just might wake you up.

Alastair Banton ● 1749d

Alina: Quite right ~ it's a press and media thing maybe even especially a Murdock thing setting the UK up again ready for how Murdock wants us to vote his way, possibly very soon, once more for Keir Starmer though? ~ Give us a break?

Bobbie Carnegie ● 1749d

Absolutely! ~ Had Labour been brave enough to go with Brexit it'd be a completely different picture.

Bobbie Carnegie ● 1749d

I thank God that we have a press willing to expose these people for what they are, unlike the grovelling media in some countries. However they don't always focus on the important. As a woman said on QT last night, the media is currently fixated on parties, while the erosion of our vital civil liberties takes place before our very eyes. The right to protest ppeacefully, and to bring a judicial review is being banned. And now they are proposing being able to overtun legal rulings they disagree with. It is truly frightening but I have seen little in the media.

Claire Moran ● 1749d

"100% to blame for Brexit"I know you Remoaners still haven't come to terms with it, but the fact is that the majority of those voting in the referendum chose to leave the EU. The actual terms of the leaving deal were down to the government, but the decision to leave came from the people.

Richard Greenhough ● 1749d

Could this be the same Murdock (sic) who persuaded people to vote the way he wanted them to on Brexit?  Was he to blame?

Alastair Banton ● 1749d

Steve, you're being silly again.

Richard Greenhough ● 1749d

RG > "The actual terms of the leaving deal were down to the government, but the decision to leave came from the people."That's getting awfully close to "this is not the Brexit I voted for" and/or "Brexit would be great if it had been done properly".Talking of blaming the press, I was astonished to see that "UK trade has shrunk since Brexit while EU thrives - data":https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1534017/UK-trade-data-post-Brexit-GDP-EU-evg

John Whitworth ● 1749d

Quite right, Claire. Johnson may be the most chaotic, dishonest and corrupt Prime Minister of the 20th and 21st centuries, but his worst attribute is that he's very dangerous. The Rule of Law has never been so threatened as under his premiership. The problem of an unwritten constitution, which depends on convention rather than immutable rules and in which parliament is supreme,  is that it is totally inadequate to constrain an autocrat with no respect for convention and a huge parliamentary majority. Johnson will brook no opposition: he has already kicked out all the decent Tory MPs who might have stood up to him. He's gunning for the judiciary because they had the temerity to rule first that parliament had to approve the invocation of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and then that Johnson's prorogation of parliament was unlawful. Now he's gunning for opposition by public protest. It's ironic he sees himself as a libertarian. In fact he's a would-be dictator.

Robert Fish ● 1749d

Robert, there are so many just waiting to take his place and prepared to doanything to get there, If we take notice of daft accusations we are no betterthan the accusers.  A set up...also agree with Alina re the media.

Janice Evans ● 1749d

Janice, firstly it would be better to wait until we see the results of the investigations into lies and corruption at no 10 before concluding it is a set-uo by the media. Second, Robert is correct in what he says if you care to do a little digging.  If you don't believe the press, where are you getting your info from? Do you have a hotline to Boris? And if so you think he should be believed when the evidence is to the contrary and what he is doing to curb our rights is in draft legislation?

Claire Moran ● 1749d

Hi Claire, was agreeing with Alina that the media dont help always!

Janice Evans ● 1749d

Also there was a question in a set up re the ......

Janice Evans ● 1749d

John Bercow - "I'm sorry to say it, but I've known 12 Prime Minister's in my lifetime & by a country mile Boris Johnson is the worst... this guy stinks in the nostrils of decent people"

Steve Taylor ● 1749d

A funny guy.

Janice Evans ● 1749d

I'm not sure that Bercow's disapproval would turn many Conservative voters against Johnson! But Speaker Hoyle seems to be similarly unimpressed. I can't remember any other Speaker telling the PM to sit down, not once but twice.

Robert Fish ● 1749d

Ha, naughty boy comes to mind.

Janice Evans ● 1749d

Robert, who else, I thought K.Starmer o.k but it turns out none of you showmuch faith in him, so who else now for P.M and prefer someone who canbe trusted with Brexit in place.

Janice Evans ● 1749d

Starmer is ok. He's not particularlu inspiring. He's a bit policy-light. He's upset some Labour supporters by trying to rid the party of a Corbynite taint, and thus make it more electable. But he is at least decent and honest, in complete contrast to the shameless charlatan that currently occupies the office of Prime Minister. Moreover, although he was a remainer, I have no doubt that he'd make a better stab at living with Brexit. It would be difficult to do worse than Johnson.

Robert Fish ● 1749d

I've seen 12 Speakers of the House of Commons in my lifetime and by a country mile John Bercow was the worst.

Richard Greenhough ● 1749d

Robert, it can only have been good to rid the party of the Corbynite taint as you refer to it and shows he has good intentions.  I try not to judge them asit's not a job I envy,

Janice Evans ● 1749d

Didn't realise you were that old Richard! - how old were you in 1943?

Andrew Jones ● 1749d

Probably a bit younger than he is now at a wild guess.

Brian Coyle ● 1749d

Clearly! But Richard would have had to have been born in the 1930s to remember 12 speakers of the House of Commons!

Andrew Jones ● 1749d

You might well be right but I can’t honestly remember more than a few. However, I have a better memory of Prime Ministers and I’d be interested to know who you consider worse than the current incumbent. Your candidate would have obviously lied to parliament on many occasions, favoured his friends in terms of contracts and peerages, not been considered a security risk by the UKs’s security services, prorogued parliament, lied to the electorate and not to have committed such economic damage through a policy so wanted by the Russians and all within two years of being elected PM.

Stewart Jones ● 1749d

Anthony Eden isn't highly thought of.

Andrew Jones ● 1749d

The 'is it not' part reminds me of this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgloGWshcj0

Elle Jones ● 1749d

Andrew Jones explained"Anthony Eden isn't highly thought of."Throughout his period in office as PM, Eden was on painkillers, as the result of a botched operation.He was due for a routine gall bladder operation, to be conducted by his regular surgeon of choice a chap named Basil Hume (No relation I assume, or moonlighting).Hume became uncharacteristically nervous, and during the operation pierced Eden's bile duct leading to serious complications.According to an account by a surgeon at the Boston Hospital, who subsequently had to carry out  corrective surgery, Hume has been visited by Churchill prior to the operation. Who impressed upon him the importance of the operation given thatEden was deputy PM. Although presumably not mentioninghis suffering the occasional mild stroke while in Office. A fact which only only emerged later with the publication of Moran, his doctor's memoirs.In addition in taking a "principled stand" against Nasser Eden was only repeating the principled stand he'd taken against appeasement specifically in relation to Italy in the 30's, by resigning from the Govt.His fatal mistake was acting in a US Election yearwhen Eisenhower intended to stand as a man of peace.That, and misleading Parliament.Eden also suffered from the grave misfortune for a politician (normally showbiz for ugly people) of both looking and dressing like a Hollywood Film star, the Glamour Boy. While his reputation for petulancemay in no small measure be put down to his being denied the top job, by a clearly ailing Churchill, for so long.michael adams 

Michael Adams ● 1749d

If you google ‘Eden amphetamines’ and read the OUP article that comes up, that also makes interesting reading (sorry can’t post the url directly)

Andrew Jones ● 1749d

I don't know how the local Conservative Party 'Politics at the Pub' did on October 12th but I guess they won't be holding another soon?

David McLoughlin ● 1749d

Bercow referred to the last twelve PMs that he knew. Eden was the thirteenth last PM. Even if we include him what damage to did he do the country in comparison with Johnson?

Stewart Jones ● 1748d

To be fair, Boris was P.M during worse time ever with the pandemic andhas been fair and also kept us alive, so well done with that lot.

Janice Evans ● 1748d

I think you might have been getting Johnson's track record over Covid confused with someone else. Someone who actually did the appropriate things at the appropriate times. Rather than Johnson's record of delays, doubtful contracting, inaction where action was needed, reckless personal behaviour, etc. You might need to remind yourself of what actually happened over the last two years.

Alan Clark ● 1748d

Maybe you are the one whoNeeds reminding.??

James Dow ● 1748d

👏

Janice Evans ● 1748d

Perhaps you could give us some facts and figure to support your claim?

Stewart Jones ● 1748d

We have never seen the like before, it's common sense surely.

Janice Evans ● 1748d

The facts are pretty muchfor all to see,doesn't take     much figureing out!

James Dow ● 1748d

Here are a few facts for you (Covid deaths per million):UK 2138Germany 1260France 1835Spain 1889Of the main Western European countries, only Italy, which was severely hit before we even knew what we were facing, has a (marginally) higher death toll, at 2232 per million. The UK's performance doesn't look so clever, does it?

Robert Fish ● 1748d

The facts you mention need reiterating so please go ahead and tell us.

Stewart Jones ● 1748d

Trying to compare with other Countries is pointless, population, age groupsetc., it proves nothing to what we see has happen.

Janice Evans ● 1748d

Sorry, to say those sad fact,s are some what skew-Wiff ,due to the much higher testing in the UK.

James Dow ● 1748d

Sorry, to say those sad fact,s are some what skew-Wiff ,due to the much higher testing in the UK.

James Dow ● 1748d

Excuses, excuses. Population differences? The mortality data are per million! Population density might be more relevant. But then you should ask yourself why  the Netherlands, with its very high population density has only 1168 deaths per million. However you look at it, the UK government's performance is below par.

Robert Fish ● 1748d

Still don't give age groups Robert.

Janice Evans ● 1748d

I don’t think the high UK rates are all down to the inept government. Yes, they should have acted quicker and been stricter but the public are equally to blame.  The British public just lacks basic common sense.

Steve Taylor ● 1748d

Sorry, Janice - you need to find another excuse. The age argument doesn't stack up - the UK has a much smaller proportion of over 65s than any of the other main Western European countries (perhaps in consequence of high levels of immigration - all those young foreigners paying for our pensions!).

Robert Fish ● 1747d

As James and Janice are completely unable to offer a single fact to support their claim then it seems reasonable dismiss it until they can.

Stewart Jones ● 1747d

Funny how when asked for facts to demonstrate how well Johnson and his govt handled the pandemic those who purport to support Johnson's record ... go quiet. They have thus far said "look at the facts" but provided none themselves, and questioned the death per million record. I'd have hoped they'd have swamped us with examples of the great actions and timely decisions that allowed 'us to come through alive' so successfully and with a carefully managed cost.

Alan Clark ● 1747d

He done o.k.

Janice Evans ● 1747d

And I will never change my mind.

Janice Evans ● 1747d

Of course you won’t !

Steve Taylor ● 1747d

Who is the real villain the Mayor or the Shark?  The shark goes around exacting revenge on human kind in a very anthropomorphic  way.  But it's an animal and it has set reactions and behaviors and whilst it makes a good scary movie it is not how sharks behave.The MayorDoe snot care about anything except money.  He puts everyone in danger by not shutting the beaches and ignoring the danger to the point of saying there is no danger and ignores the experts both locally and nationally until he is so deep in the do do of his own making he starts to deny everything including the fact he is the Mayor and therefore in charge of the island.  It is his stupidity that allows more chaos from outside agitators in the form of drunk boat owners who think they can kill the shark .  Jaws is a horror film not least because the shark is behaving like a territorial abused animal would do but more so because of the human in charge who behaving like a selfish child and pretending nothing is wrong then denying his responsibility for the entire situation.  I would far rather deal with a virus from the get go than be in this situation after 2 years because of a spoiled selfish child and his chums who always think the best thing to do is what's best for them.

Caroline Carney ● 1747d

https://karenwoodall.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/screen-shot-2018-09-07-at-11-26-49.png(Sorry, don't know how to insert graphics into a post)

Andrew Jones ● 1747d

That is a very apt description of the behaviour of our Mayor.

Steve Taylor ● 1747d

So you accept that the UK has a higher death rate?

Stewart Jones ● 1747d