Forum Topic

'I take full responsibility'

Keir Starmer has sacked Angela Raynor as party chair, because what the Labour party needs is more Islington lawyers and fewer working-class northern women who left school at 16 because they got knocked up but then dragged themselves up by their bootstraps.

Susan Kelly ● 1997d43 Comments

Keir takes his orders from one of his former staff who used to work for Mossad. In Glaswegian, Keir was instructed to say "It wisnae me, it wiz the wee wumman who did it and she ran away". As Leader of the Opposition he has been an intellectual pygmy whose lack of policies and strategies make you wonder where he is leading his followers. Perhaps it is 40 years in the wilderness?

John Connelly ● 1997d

You mean  "...ran a weir".Starmer has provided no opposition to the covid totalitarian destruction job coz Johnson's masters are his too.

Michael Brown ● 1997d

I’m not sure what to think, Susan. Angela Raynor’s an impressive politician but she hasn’t brought a lot to the table in the past year, though it hasn’t been politics as normal. Also, Kier Starmer doesn’t come from Islington and doesn’t live there. Frankly, would it matter if he did? He’s a state-school educated over-achiever. John, what on earth are you going on about? Michael, yes, I agree. Not easy to be leader or the opposition in the past year. Most of us would have wanted him put to party politics aside, for the most part, though I understand that’s not your point of view.

Kerry Chandler ● 1997d

Well, I may have to eat my words, Susan.  There’s a rumour, being discussed on Sky News, that Lisa Nandy might also be sacked/demoted. It’s only a rumour, but if that happens, Keir Starmer’s lost my vote. Surely that’s not true.

Kerry Chandler ● 1997d

Kerry, google Assaf Kaplan to see the link.

John Connelly ● 1997d

What on earth is a 'state-school educated over-achiever' ?  Utter gibberish.

Claire Moran ● 1997d

Keir Starmer comes from an ordinary background and everything he’s achieved is off his own back. You may think “so what” but we all know “Islington lawyer” implies privilege and elitism and I don’t think that’s fair or true.Having said that, of course Susan makes a good point that sacking Angela Raynor doesn’t look great when Labour has to engage with voters in the old industrial towns of the north. I wonder what’s been going behind the scenes.

Kerry Chandler ● 1997d

When Trump was elected, I read an interesting article which suggested that ordinary voters in America don't hate rich people: they hate educated, middle-class people -- doctors, lawyers, teachers, social workers -- whom they see as looking down on them and preaching at them.I fear that the UK is going the same way ('We've had enough of experts', remember) and that Doris Johnson knows exactly what he's doing every time he gets up in the Commons and sneers about Starmer being a lawyer.Miss Raynor seems an impressive woman who has achieved a great deal from a shaky start but gets routinely mocked merely for her accent.

Susan Kelly ● 1997d

Agree with your first paragraph Susan, no idea what the North will think of him now.

Janice Evans ● 1997d

I think the most accurate assessment of the recent results is that many of Labour's traditional supporters in places like the north of England felt that they were being treated in a condescending manner by a metropolitan élite that viewed many of their concerns with scorn and contempt. This attitude was perfectly encapsulated by Brown's 'bigoted woman' gaffe, and things have only gone downhill since then,

Colin Jordan ● 1997d

It took them a long time to realise some people did want fairness for alland went for it.

Janice Evans ● 1997d

Always thought that Angela Raynor would get her points across in interviews far better if she stopped shouting and being so angry at the camera

Paul Fisher ● 1997d

Don't worry, the penny will drop someday. Kier wakes up today being more unpopular than yesterday and that's within the labour movement to boot. It is over in reality. The idea his closest people come on radio and Tv saying it's been hard getting any message over when he and others spent roughly 8 days recently before these elections campaigning on wall paper and even popping to JL for some pics. And again to be very honest and many won't like it or admit it but in reality, Boris is currently a winner and winning in politics is the first goal

Julian Pavey ● 1997d

Yes, that rings true!  Michael Gove’s comment that we’ve had enough of experts comes to mind. I think it’s a dangerous road to go down but then I’m a bit of a middle class know-all so I would, wouldn’t I?

Kerry Chandler ● 1997d

Beware all you gloaters - Margaret Thatcher was a winner........until she wasn't.  Johnson will go the same way.The Welsh leader Mark Drakeford was on TV every day with the Corona virus updates and that helped secure his success.It is time for the Labour Party to "get behind the leader" (where did I hear that before?) and stop all this self-inflicted damage.  Every time a Labour Party member drags out Blair the memory of Thatcher gets weaker.  I'm not holding my breath.I can't wait for Brexit to really kick in once we are no longer constrained by the virus, then reality and what I believe to be Johnsons & Co's lies will be become clear - and we are back to the Tory party stabbing its PM in the front.........again!

Martin Weaver ● 1997d

Tony Blair was a winner too remember.Until he wasn't, that is.

Keith Iddon ● 1997d

The answers of labours demise is simple they have no vision, no policies, the world has changed and banging on about connecting to working class people is outdated. A pal reminded me that Keir is Mr Hindsight ha! Thankfully the class system is no longer, people are equal. Sadly we have Khan back absolutely tragic he doesn’t listen, there is nothing democratic about him.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1997d

Agree Martin, these things seem to be cyclical - and as you get older you understand this. As a veteran of both the elections when Labour had Michael Foot, and then Neil Kinnock - I remember the absolute depression, and the awful job of canvassing that left people in despair. If someone had told any of us then Labour would go on to win three General Elections we'd have said they'd lost the plot. I heard someone on Marr's show this morning saying that voters in Hartlepool were citing the downgrading of their hospital, the closing of local courts and police station closure, how the hell they equated that with having a Labour MP when this was entirely the work of the Tories who've been in power since 2010 I cannot fathom. Clearly the leftover Brexit arguments played a big part in this result - and Martin's so right, when reality kicks in - and it will - Johnson's appalling lies, obfuscation, chicanery and laziness will all become clear. You're only any good to the Tories when you're a winner, and all those ramrod stiff shire Tories are hypocritical enough to overlook this appalling behaviour from their Leader until it all goes t*ts up - which it will. Johnson and his pathetic bunch will get too cocky and overstep the mark and then they'll be toast.

Vanessa Smith ● 1997d

Again you attack, cannot see the mistakes you have made all along, howAbout some suggestions to bring Labour back on track.

Janice Evans ● 1997d

You can see why they’re in such a bad state simply by reading some of the comments here. Nothing much to offer, their only hope is to wait until the Tories implode. In the meantime, they could follow in the tracks of the French socialist party with 6 or 7% of the vote.

Russell Pearson ● 1997d

Absolutely, under Blair for the most part he was a strong leader, had clarity re policies and actually did consider the whole country. This lot bang on about nothing, backward thinking Brexit has happened and the vaccine programme has shone a light on what we are capable of achieving is we are forward thinking. The only way is forward. Labour don’t listen, don’t learn and are a bunch of champagne socialists, totally negative. It will take more than a cabinet reshuffle to be credible again.

Jayne Thorburn ● 1997d

'Labour don’t listen, don’t learn and are a bunch of champagne socialists, totally negative.'Please define that comment 'champagne socialist'.

Vanessa Smith ● 1997d

"We've had enough of experts"? The presence of Covid-19 and how to deal with it from start to present has been chock-a-block full of 'experts' contradicting each other.

Bobbie Carnegie ● 1997d

The "we have had enough of experts" quote was as I recall triggered by the dire prediction by a whole bunch of professional economists that if the Brexit referendum went (in the their opinion) the wrong way then there would be a mass flight of capital and businesses out of the UK. When the vote was for Brexit there was no mass exodus of either capital or businesses and the experts looked very silly. Yes, some businesses were and are experiencing particular problems but in the big scheme of things Gove was right and the professional economists were wrong. After the post Covid recovery boom we may in the medium to long term experience lower economic growth because we are "in Europe as a sovereign state but not run by Europe". So what? If Covid has taught us anything it is surely that how we divide up the national cake is at least as important as how fast that cake grows. 

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 1997d

Yes, that was the background to Gove’s off-the-cuff comment, but it’s taken on a life of its own. It’s used to undermine the value of expert advice in all sorts of arenas. Bobbie’s done that above, just for example, The article Susan mentioned seems interesting because there’s an inherent danger in rejecting advice wholesale, just because it comes from experts, ie knowledgeable people in any particular area. They don’t always get it right but science moves forward when ‘experts’ debate, disagree and explore options. At its best, we end up with vaccines that work.

Kerry Chandler ● 1997d

I have heard it all now!  What is a state educated over achiever please tell. Are you really saying someone with a state education should "know their place'?  That has to be one of the most classist things I have seen said this year and I have seen many.  I am not a fan of Starmer as a leader because he is wrecking the party from the inside and the sacking of Angela Rayner as party chair who had very little to do in the campaign because she was shut out by his supporters.  She probably said to them don't bus a man who in his last attempt was a very vocal anti Brexiter and rabidly pro European who does not have a hope in hells chance because of that.  If I had any say I would have advised Dennis Skinner be bussed in he ticks all of Hartlepool boxes plus he is a brilliant MP who lost his seat because of Starmer and his chums jumping into the pro Europe bucket.  Well that's just me I believe all local parties whatever their colour should be able to pick who stands as their MP because they are the ones who will be knocking doors selling them.  One of the first things we need to get sorted is that local campaigns should be on local issues not on who is the government that way people would have a chance for a halfway decent MP and not some sap or yes person who has never even visited the constituency.  I am not sold on PR for national elections but they would certainly be good for local ones especially in rural areas where one party always gets in on FPP.  Bit rambling I know but I am still reeling from State school over achiever!!  Seriously what century were you born in.  The majority of this country went to state schools and don't forget they outnumber public school pupils so they run the country not the Bullingdon club we have now.  If they stop work or die in more numbers of Covid then England will be on her knees.  Nothing bad will happen if the public schools close and all have to go to state school. Or if they are no longer in power.  I do not believe Starmer can win a general election so if the Tories were being clever they would announce one for next year whilst Keith gets his act together.

Caroline Carney ● 1997d

John Connelly "Keir takes his orders from one of his former staff who used to work for Mossad"Nice to see that Lab commitment to anti-Semitism is working!

Justin Stephenson ● 1997d

Perhaps I should have said achiever rather than over achiever but I stand by my point, it’s harder to become Director of Public Prosecutions from a state school background than from a public school. Not something I bang on about but it’s sneary to refer to him as an Islington lawyer and implies a level of privilege or elitism that isn’t fair.As you say, most of us state-school educated and nothing wrong with that.

Kerry Chandler ● 1997d

Even if you are a Boris-lover (which I'm certainly not) you surely want to see an effective and competent opposition. Otherwise we end up a one-party state.

Susan Kelly ● 1996d

"Agree Martin, these things seem to be cyclical - and as you get older you understand this. As a veteran of both the elections when Labour had Michael Foot, and then Neil Kinnock - I remember the absolute depression, and the awful job of canvassing that left people in despair. If someone had told any of us then Labour would go on to win three General Elections we'd have said they'd lost the plot."And that was when they could still win a majority of seats in Scotland. Unless they can launch a recovery there, and in the process prevent the Scots seceding from the UK, it is hard to see where a Labour majority at Westminster could come from.

Richard Greenhough ● 1996d

It’s going to be won or lost in the towns again, isn’t it? The Tories have the English countryside, Labour has the cities and is looking strong in Wales, and neither will get much in Scotland. It’s the old, industrial towns again and it’s going to be a big ask for Labour. I think Vanessa’s right, tables turn eventually, the Brexit debate won’t be revisited forever and the vaccine-bounce will wear off. Like I say, eventually!

Kerry Chandler ● 1996d

What Labour has to do apart from waiting for the Tories to sod it up, which they will do, is to have an honest and deep soul searching look at what people were saying to them on the doorstep. Look at Andy Burnham's success in Manchester - due in no small way to the way he stood up to the government, and would not be pushed around. We were active members of the Labour party for over 30 years, but frankly would struggle to support them locally next year. They are out of touch and what's worrying is that they don't seem to care either and seem intent on blaming us for that. One local councillor who canvassed us for the Mayoral election, told my husband he knew 'you've turned against Labour', corrected by my husband saying - no mate it's the Labour party that's turned on us. We will not and cannot vote for what is in effect a one man band with a load of acolytes following meakly and taking the money and just not engaging with local people. It's wrong and has to change.Labour nationally are between the Devil and the deep blue sea, tribal politics have gone and Brexit opened up deep divisions that are not healing quickly enough. For too many people political engagement is just a once every couple of years vote - it has to be more than that - and it is up to the electorate to get itself educated. To refer to another thread about the number of spoilt votes in Thursday's elections and the difficulty of understanding the process is enough to make you weep. Some might say if you couldn't work that out should you really have a vote at all?

Vanessa Smith ● 1996d

"Labour has the cities and is looking strong in Wales.."Labour remains strong in its traditional heartlands of South Wales, not least because Dreary Drakeford's pandemic response was very strongly focused on that area and largely ignored the needs of the rest of the country.

Richard Greenhough ● 1996d

I’d like to think more of that work would have already happened, if it weren’t for the pandemic, but now it’s urgent. Not just to win votes but to be true to the values of the party and to show ambition for the country.The issue about two very divided constituencies and having to wear two faces may prove to be a problem for the Tories too. There are surprising Labour wins in the South, in places like Sussex and Oxfordshire, that suggest some traditional Tory voters aren’t happy with this particular Government, for the reasons you describe. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, Starmer can achieve before the next election. I sometimes think I won’t vote Labour next time but in the end I do because, in spite of everything, I believe it’s the best hope we have for more people to have a better life.

Kerry Chandler ● 1996d

JC: "Keir takes his orders from one of his former staff who used to work for Mossad."Would that be the same Keir who is a member of Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East (LFPME), supports a two-state solution to the conflict, and who condemned US President Donald Trump's "deal of the century" plan for the region as "a farce" and as "inconsistent with international law and human rights protections."?Or am I confusing him with another Keir?

Richard Cathcart ● 1996d

Keir Starmer was christened after the founder of the Labour Party Keir Hardy. Nuff said ~ aye? 'You couldn't make it up' as they say ~ aye?

Bobbie Carnegie ● 1996d

Count Binface has sacked his Electoral Campaign Co-ordinator when it was revealed that he received just 4k votes more than Jeremy Corbyn's idiot brother, Piers.

Richard Cathcart ● 1996d

But which one was the Monster Raving Loony ?

Richard Greenhough ● 1996d

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/02/lawyers-complain-to-labour-over-hiring-of-ex-israeli-intelligence-officerThe gentleman in question is his new social media expert. His background can be found in the article reached by the above link. Starmer's position on the Israeli/Palestine question is neither here nor there.

John Connelly ● 1996d

The Monster Raving Loonys rejected Corbyn.I mean, they've got to think of their credibility with the public...

Richard Cathcart ● 1996d

And Starmer "takes his orders from" [sic] his Social Listening and Organising Manager, as you claimed?Funny, but I don't see responsibilty for managing the Party Leader anywhere in the job description:https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/JD-Social-Listening-and-Organising-Manager.pdf

Richard Cathcart ● 1996d

Pretty obvious I would have thought.

Brian Coyle ● 1996d

Difficult to tell the difference at times.

Brian Coyle ● 1996d