Forum Topic

Tory Sleaze

A company, prevailed upon to urgently make NHS ventilators and worried about tax treatment of its employees, would get the finance or payroll department to call HMRC. Not Dyson. Just text Johnson. Call in a favour. Remind me - what side was Dyson on over Brexit?

Ken Munn ● 2015d56 Comments

Putting politics to one side given the circumstances at the time not sure I would call this sleaze.......I would also expect heavy weight business leaders to have interaction with government for obvious reasons. If I had been PM, with world first pandemic and no ventilators then I would use every resource possible to to help and save lives. Note dyson hasn’t taken taken advantage of any of the government schemes like furlough, funded the development cost of potential ventilators which were not required so put yourself in PM shoes what would you do under the circumstances?

Jayne Thorburn ● 2015d

I believe that Dyson also swallowed the development costs of 20 Million Pounds as well to help the UK when desperately needed so another own goal by Ken Munn

Paul Fisher ● 2015d

JT > "If I had been PM, with world first pandemic and no ventilators then I would use every resource possible to to help and save lives."Hmm."Coronavirus: Government investigating failure to take up offer of 25,000 ventilators"Cheshire firm says it also told Department of Health it could secure 50 million coronavirus testing kits – but received no response"https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-ventilators-boris-johnson-email-nhs-testing-kits-a9432296.html

John Whitworth ● 2015d

John easy to picks holes, for sure the government made mistakes but their intent was right. Every government of a major economy  in the world has struggled. In life we all make mistakes but the key is the intention, at the beginning of the pandemic I am sure government along with millions of people went into panic mode, they are human and covid is real claiming millions of lives. Is any government perfect? No they are human, government is a bureaucratic machine which is absolutely not helpful in a pandemic. They have stepped up investing heavily in treatments, vaccines etc. very early on as this is the only way out that is to be applauded.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2015d

I see the defend the Tories at each and every opportunity brigade are in evidence. Would they, I wonder, feel the same if the government were of a different political persuasion?

Vanessa Smith ● 2015d

Vanessa I specifically stated keep politics out of this conversation. Whoever was in government would have made mistakes what we don’t know is if they would have had the vision and courage to to aim for vaccinations and treatment research at the very early stages of the pandemic. I seem to recall many political parties wanted to join to EU programme, where would we be know if that decision had been made?

Jayne Thorburn ● 2015d

On the main point I would expect heavy weight business leaders to have a relationship with whoever was in government so is that sleaze I don’t think so. Nothing political just critical that we have a thriving economy for obvious reasons and big business plays an important role. If we have successful big business that enables SME’s to thrive so it is all interlinked.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2015d

And that from someone who is a fully-paid-up member of the attack the Tories at each and every opportunity brigade. Would they, I wonder, feel the same if the government were of a different political persuasion?

Richard Greenhough ● 2015d

The point here is that there were many small companies who were willing and able to supply PPE and other mechanical aides but who didn't have a hot line to government, or a mate who just happened to be a government minister . As always, whatever your bluff and bluster it's not what you know but who you know that counts with this government. As for keeping politics out of it - do you think the likes of Dyson would even bother if there wasn't something in it for them?

Vanessa Smith ● 2015d

YES, you cannot defend the indefensible - and quite honestly if you knew anything at all, you would know I have been, and continue to be, very publicly critical of our own Labour council.

Vanessa Smith ● 2015d

Indeed - Hounslow's Labour council generally deserves all the criticism it gets. As you know, I have said previously that if you stood as an independent for the council you would get my vote.

Richard Greenhough ● 2015d

The point here is - right is right and wrong is wrong regardless, there are those who take the 'my party, right or wrong' view, and I'm afraid I never took that view. Who on earth has the wisdom to never, ever, make a mistake? Wouldn't life be wonderful if such beings existed? It is the failure to learn from those mistakes that is so frustrating. To go on and on doing so is arrogance.

Vanessa Smith ● 2015d

Just imagine being sat and responsible for the enormity of covid on all public servants inc NHS. So where do you start, who do you turn too to pull together a plan, thousands dying, economy stopped......dealing with the big guns is surely the first step, top scientific researchers, medical professionals, knowing that everything is going to take time, every country doing a similar thing, not enough of anything worse still trying to understand the virus that is killing citizens. It’s a mammoth challenge I don’t think any government of a major economy really knew where to start. The vaccine Taskforce which had to be kept under wraps thank god turned into a master stroke. Image the press seizing and spinning every story into a negative, every citizen having an opinion. Vanessa you are right we are all human and will make mistakes but at least understand the enormity of the challenge and value what has been achieved in just a year. Big business and government have a tricky relationship but relationship they must have. With covid there was not time to waste. It’s takes courage, vision and balls to lead a country through a pandemic. I am full of praise to all those that have lead us through this and continue to do so, Dyson asked a fair question if I bring highly qualified engineers from overseas they don’t want to be penalised on tax. That’s fair. As it turned out their new invention wasn’t required. Dyson hasn’t taken a penny of taxpayers money unlike many other big business. There is no sleaze here. But of course the press love to spin it and some people turn it into political point scoring, a shame.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2015d

VS, "you cannot defend the indefensible" Does this not also apply to you?I think most of us know where your allegiances lie.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2015d

I have never made any secret of that, but that doesn't put the Labour party out of reach of justified criticism.

Vanessa Smith ● 2015d

Justified criticism is fair but Dyson’s story is not sleaze in my humble opinion.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2015d

We said Jayne, we should be grateful and not snipe at everything.

Janice Evans ● 2015d

'I am full of praise to all those that have lead us through'Jayne, your point of view might begin to hold water if Johnson's government had made a decent job of handling Covid. Simple fact is - it didn't. Look at the stats.With about 127,000 'official' Covid deaths the UK has done worse in deaths per capita than any other roughly equivalent country except Italy, and Italy is only worse than the UK by 1.5 deaths per 100,000. UK deaths per capita is worse than Brazil, USA, India and 140 other countries.Take a look:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_death_rates_by_country

Ken Munn ● 2015d

Ken, there are still many who won't have the vaccine so there willNever be any control over further deaths, are you going to blame the Government.

Janice Evans ● 2015d

Perhaps it might be an idea to delay judgement until the pandemic is reckoned to be over, and then make your comparisons ? We may have lost a few battles, but at the moment we seem to be winning the war.

Richard Greenhough ● 2015d

In Response To:'I am full of praise to all those that have lead us through'I suppose we should be thankful that Boris had finished getting his leg over Ms. Arcuri before all this struck us, personally I don't much care who he screws, until it happens to be this country.

Vanessa Smith ● 2015d

I know Ken, sadly it's the new normal.

Basil Finnis ● 2014d

Ken the fact is that doctors where instructed to count anyone who died within 28 days of a positive covid test. That doesn’t mean they died of covid! i am sure anyone with any personal contact with a doctor will tell you that they had to put Covid on the death certificate even when they knew it was not Covid that caused the death. I guess whoever made that decision had to draw a line. There are countries in Europe who count differently and are pretty close to us and in a much more serious situation than us currently. The fact is covid is a killer virus and here to stay so the challenge is managing it. So far the UK is doing a fantastic job of that and let’s pray more to come down the line .

Jayne Thorburn ● 2014d

JT > "... they had to put Covid on the death certificate even when they knew it was not Covid that caused the death."That would be illegal.The 'within 28 days of a positive test' measure and what goes on a death certificate are completely separate.

John Whitworth ● 2014d

Looks like Labour clutching at straws here. Probably dilute the impact on Cameron. As they haven’t got any real policy, and Starmer is a lost cause, it’s the best they can try for.

Russell Pearson ● 2014d

That may be the case but that has been the instruction, if someone dies within 28 days of a positive covid test it goes on the death certificate and against the count. Whilst no one is proud of the death rate other European countries have a similar toll or are catching up fast. Each country took a slightly different approach but the outcome appears to be the same. So vaccines and treatments is the only way forward.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2014d

JT > "That may be the case but that has been the instruction, if someone dies within 28 days of a positive covid test it goes on the death certificate and against the count."Please provide a reference for that. As far as I know that is completely false.

John Whitworth ● 2014d

What Labour are doing is not the point. What this government did is the point. Anyone trying to deflect and re-point is simply (hopelessly) trying to divert the discussion away from the government actions and decisions.Under the cover of pandemic panic there was many dubious (by which I personally see as dodgy) placement of private sector contracts for public sector emergency requirements. It does seem certain that many such contracts were placed without normal (and necessary) checks, due process or competition. That smells of profiteering.And now our Conservative government wants no analysis or inquiry into this year of doubtful activity. Plus, this government and its supporters decry any criticism of a year of dubious contract placement. That smells of hiding the guilty.

Alan Clark ● 2014d

Hear, hear

Vivienne Cox ● 2014d

Sorry to disagree operating during a pandemic will not doubt have played a genuine role to move fast. Totally agree normal circumstances government must be open & transparent following the procurement rules. In a pandemic it has to be all hands to the pump to secure whatever was necessary to save lives. Business has always been about networking the fact the PM rolled his sleeves up as part of the team surely is a positive under pandemic circumstances.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2014d

If your government says to you “We have a national emergency, you have the expertise, can you help us save lives?”, then the answer should be “Yes” and not “How much tax will I have to pay?”

Ken Munn ● 2014d

Surely, this all supports the need fir  a Public Enquiry into all aspects of the handling of the pandemic including financial aspects too.

Stewart Jones ● 2014d

Was interesting on Peston last night when John McDonnell amd Andrea Jenkyns were discussing the way Johnny Mercer had been treated, namely his sacking by text. John McDonnell said he thought was that it was pretty disgraceful and offensive and that he should at least have been able to resign that day as he had indicated he would. When this was put to Ms. Jenkyns she launched into a tirade going on about how offended she found it that a Labour leader had spoken to the IRA!! Peston told her that that was not the issue under discussion. But it's typical of the 'whatabouters' who, having no justifiable defence drag up something historical that has absolutely nothing to do with what the current discussion is. What Jeremy Corbyn did or didn't do has absolutely bugger all bearing on how the government treated one of its own minsters.

Vanessa Smith ● 2014d

There is nothing like rank amateurs rolling up their sleeves, getting stuck in and making an utter hash of what should be conducted through the existing professional procurement channels. The best we can observe about Johnson was that he was flailing about in a panic, grabbing hold of anyone he knew who "built things" and desperately trying to salvage something from the disaster that was, to a great extent, of his own making. That is the kind interpretation. It was all hands to the pump, getting in the way of the very people who were best placed to address this. Actually not getting in the way - circumventing them.So with the centralist influence of Cummings the normal channels to solve the ventilator issue were ignored. Using those channels would have meant determining how to get existing (and already approved suppliers and equipment) to supply according to the need. That may have meant aid from others - but aid in support of existing (medically certified) suppliers and equipment. Not brand new, unproven, unapproved suppliers and equipment. Taking that brand new route is the action of a talentless, clueless fool - playing danger games with public money and public health.So the best summary we can put forward is that Johnson was clueless and desperate to create a good news story amidst the bad news he was so influential in forming. That is such a great endorsement of the PM.

Alan Clark ● 2014d

For Vanessa:Isn't that what they call the Dead Cat technique? Throwing a different issue into the discussion?  I think perhaps someone needs to bring out some new techniques. It is all becoming boring and predictable. An honest answer from a politician comes across as new and refreshing!

Katrina Black ● 2014d

"...desperately trying to salvage something from the disaster that was, to a great extent, of his own making."You'll be telling us he had a pecuniary interest in the Wuhan wet markets next.

Richard Greenhough ● 2014d

Your memory is short. I am referring to Johnson's cavalier approach to the pandemic at the beginning of last year. His delays and indecision made the first wave considerably worse.

Alan Clark ● 2014d

I'm not sure that the text exchange with Dyson can really be described as Tory sleaze, but it does give rise to concerns about privileged access to Johnson and his cabinet. And anyone who thinks there's nothing to be concerned about in the awarding of Covid-related contracts should read today's report from Transparency International: https://www.transparency.org.uk/track-and-trace-uk-PPE-procurement-corruption-risk-VIP-lane

Robert Fish ● 2014d

Agreed, the Dyson texts alone won’t damage the Government. So far, the sleazy stories haven’t touched the sides. But if they keep coming, if it turns out that’s who they are and how they govern, then the drip, drip drip will eventually harm them. It probably will.

Kerry Chandler ● 2013d

It probably would if there were a serious alternative.  But Starmer is failing to hit the spot with many potential Labour voters.

Claire Moran ● 2013d

Bring back Peter Mandelson Or Bernie Ecclestone, Great old labour people they could teach boris a few tricks.

James Dow ● 2013d

What has Bernie Ecclestone got to do with politics - he's the F1 bod isn't he?

Vanessa Smith ● 2013d

Vanessa, you're forgetting the hoo-ha about Ecclestone's donation to the Labour Party before the 1997 election, and the subsequent discussion of an exemption for Formula 1 from a ban on tobacco advertising. I'm not sure whether James Dow's post is just a little joke or pre-historic whatabouttery. If the latter, 20-odd years on, it's even more brass-faced than the usual excuses for the Johnson administration.

Robert Fish ● 2013d

Millions in backhanders to Tony and Peter And Tessa jowell and all the rest of them

James Dow ● 2013d

Just glasshouse's and stones really

James Dow ● 2013d

Oh my! Indeed shameless whataboutery, after all this time.

Robert Fish ● 2013d

There was agonising within the Labour Party about it. Johnson seems to accept that what his government is doing is perfectly acceptable.

Robert Fish ● 2013d

Does sleaze and corruption in government have a time limit then.  Where it cannot be mentioned.

James Dow ● 2013d

Of course you can mention it. But what's the relevance, if not to distract from the  sins of the current government? Johnson would have us believe that what his government is doing is perfectly normal and acceptable, and you are either buying into that morally dubious defence, or you're quite cynically attempting to deflect criticism. The Ecclestone business was a scandal, but the modus operandi of this government is one long scandal. We are becoming a banana republic, where buying influence is the norm, and Ministers have no shame in granting privileges to cronies.

Robert Fish ● 2013d

None of the things you say just a question of balance.

James Dow ● 2013d

I suspect James mentions it because he sees the sleaze and smells the whiff of corruption. The only excuse for ignoring it is to argue every Government is as bad. The fact is sleaze may be an issue in the next election, not in the sense it was for Blair’s Government but in the way it was  for John Major.  Time will tell.

Kerry Chandler ● 2013d

James, as I posted earlier, the bigger sign of incompetence is not the sleaze. (Of course this government is sleazy, that’s its DNA.) However this issue, of ventilators & Dyson & tax breaks is actually about utter amateur incompetence. It’s about Johnson & Cummings circumventing proven procurement routes to favour mates. Ignoring details such as fit for purpose certifications or testing. Shoddy. Dangerous. Wasteful. And benefiting mates.I look forward to your whatabout response.

Alan Clark ● 2013d

What is relative to all this - as it was with the expenses scandal, is that everyone cites 'the rules' and how they have not broken them. Common sense to us lesser mortals says - then there's something very wrong with the bloody rules. I don't give a stuff what the political persuasion is of a government that is involved in this, it is not what we should expect or accept from our elected representatives either national or local. Until and unless this problem is tackled head on and the penalties for both the indivudal and the party involved are severe and transparent nothing will change.

Vanessa Smith ● 2013d

Suggest some viewing, running on BBC2 and i player - 'Bent Coppers' - about the rampant corruption in the Met. in the 70s and 80s - mind boggling. Sir Robert Mark, as Met. Commissioner, set up A10 made up of uniformed police officers, as CID were operating a 'firm within a firm', to tackle this head on. There are lessons here for the Johnson brigade.

Vanessa Smith ● 2013d

Lovely Laura her from the BBC,says That this dyson affairIs making boris look good.

James Dow ● 2013d

Well, she would, wouldn't she?

Vanessa Smith ● 2013d