Forum Topic

Oh Dear  decisions,  decisions on Vaccine

Does the Government, carry on with the one jab for all until the vaccine runs out and re-shield the vulnerable.Or revert to giving the second jab for those who are nearly twelve weeks since their first vaccination.It seems that on the news tonight, the EU wants to stop exports of any vaccine to the UK which are produce in EU facilities.So it looks as though the UK is going to take the hit for the EU machine blundering along and not getting their act in order.   

Bernard Allen ● 2050d51 Comments

I want my first

Julian Pavey ● 2050d

There will not be enough to give the 25m who’ve had their first vaccine their second shot.So in a week or two the “scientific advice” will support the government changed message that it’s actually just as effective to have 1 shot. And don’t worry you’ll get another first shot in October which will be better than the on you had at the start of the year. And you’ll get a second shot in January ... possibly.But if you’ve booked a holiday abroad on back of expectations of getting 2nd shot more fool you.

Richard Potts ● 2050d

In the FT five days ago: 'AZ’s struggle to ramp up vaccine supplies to the EU is partly because of the failure of one of the company’s key European manufacturing sites to deliver any doses to the bloc six months after the supply contract was agreed.The Dutch factory, run by subcontractor Halix, is yet to receive EU regulatory approval to supply the region even though it was named in the deal signed between AstraZeneca and the European Commission in August. 'I don't think there's anything to worry about according to this:https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/uk-factories-making-astrazeneca-vaccine-19708380

Ben Gemmingen ● 2050d

Why don't they just ship all the AstraZenica ones sitting in fridges that they don't want to use in Europe to us?  In the meantime, the EU is planning to sue that company for not delivering the vaccines it doesn't want.  EU think, and why I am glad we left.

Claire Moran ● 2049d

"Drugs giants Pfizer and AstraZeneca have rejected an NHS claim that the UK is facing a COVID-19 vaccine shortage, insisting there is no threat to supplies.The two leading vaccine manufacturers both said they remain on course to meet their delivery commitments and denied they were facing disruption in supplies.Their defiant statements appeared to contradict a letter to vaccination centres from NHS England warning there will be a "significant reduction" in supplies next month.The jabs crisis coincided with a threat by the European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen to block vaccine exports to the UK, where 25 million adults have now had their first jab. "Sky News this morning.Who knows what's really happening so I think it's best to see how this pans out over the next few days before trying to second guess.Anyway let's not forget the UK has done really well so far  and a few bumps in the road is only to be expected.

Adrian Irving ● 2049d

Past performance is not a guide to future performance.There will not be enough vaccine to complete the 2nd jab for all within the 12 weeks timescale.The focus has been on getting everyone their 1st jab - with a target of everyone by end of July. So when does the 2nd jab start? 12 weeks is well before July - I think we've done about 1.7m 2nd jabs so far.But the issue is when you add the number of 2nd Jabs that need to be done, along with the number of 1st jabs still to be done, we will soon need to be doing 700k/day v the 350k/day we're doing now.Even if we had the supply we would struggle to physically do that. But all the noises are the we are facing significant supply constraints like the rest of the world.So I don't think the majority will get their 2nd dose in 12 or even 18 weeks by which time we will need to start over again, and you can forget your digital passport for that holiday in Greece.

Richard Potts ● 2049d

I believe we are up to about 530k as of yesterday so very achievable

Paul Fisher ● 2049d

This a link to an interview of Veronique Trillet-Lenoir MEP and medical doctor on 26 January.https://www.channel4.com/news/we-are-facing-some-kind-of-vaccine-nationalism-french-mep-veronique-trillet-lenoirHer mind set is quite extraordinary. The refusal to accept that the EU Commission has presided over a massive cock-up is breathtaking. The shortfall in deliveries of the vaccine to EU countries is apparently not because of manufacturers' production problems nor because the Commission did not sign a contract until 2 months after the UK Government.    The reason according to Veronique is that "others" i.e. us perfidious Brits have crossed the manufacturers' palms with gold and that this has made them renegade on their contracts with the EU.She repeated this utter nonsense in an interview broadcast on the World Service last night whilst simultaneously justifying the French government's halting of the AZ vaccination programme on the precautionary principle. Bizarre. I should state for the record that back in the day I voted to join the EEC and am one of those proudly limp-wristed Conservatives who always believed that unless there was a very good (and well articulated) reason for leaving the EU we should stay in. 

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 2049d

Agree Claire, lots of elderly have had a second jab and did hear they expect to cover all those over the age of 50, just glad we got off to a good start.

Janice Evans ● 2049d

According to the BBC it’s supplies from India which is causing a 4 week delay, I have no doubt all second jabs will be done within the 12 week timeframe so fret not.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2049d

I expect our cousins in Australia are none too pleased with the  EU blocking 250K vaccines destines for their shores.

Keith Iddon ● 2049d

Its just dither,delay,stop,start,stop,point and more where the EU is concerned. Many people and medical staff within those EU countries are fuming with whats going on while the beds start to fill up again. Cant remember the exact word of one italian hospital clinician yesterday but he was lets just say fuming over the whole issue.

Julian Pavey ● 2049d

KI > "I expect our cousins in Australia are none too pleased with the  EU blocking 250K vaccines destines for their shores."Over the last six weeks, the EU has exported 41 million doses of vaccine to 33 countries. Ten million of those doses were exported to the UK. The bloc has refused just one request for overseas shipment (see above) out of 300 requests received.I can't find the equivalent figures for the UK.

John Whitworth ● 2049d

Meanwhile JW I presume you are happy that millions of doses are sitting in EU freezers not being used?

Paul Fisher ● 2049d

The UK has not exported any vaccines at all. But we expect the EU to.

Stewart Jones ● 2049d

That's debatable :the UK ,amongst others, is funding COVAX.Who is funding Covax and which countries might benefit?Covax has raised $6bn (£4.3bn), but the scheme says it needs at least another $2bn (£1.4bn) to meet its target for 2021.The UK government has provided $734m (£548m) and the US pledged $4bn (£2.93bn) in December.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-55795297

Ben Gemmingen ● 2049d

Thanks for the facts and figures,John.I still don't see how the Australians could be anything but displeased.

Keith Iddon ● 2049d

The *EU* haven't exported *any* vaccines. Companies within member states have fulfilled their contractual obligations to supply countries that have bought vaccines from them, just as the companies that took government money to set up vaccine production in the UK are fulfilling their contractual obligations to supply doses for domestic use before switching to export. There is no technical export ban from the UK, just a requirement to supply the initial however many doses to the UK market.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

Actually, they've been perfectly understanding. The amount of doses in question is relatively small & they have substantial domestic capacity just about to come on stream. Broadly they're fine with it.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

The EMA has approved the vaccine and is repeatedly urging member states to use it. Some are, more aren't. It's almost as if they're sovereign nations not bound to EU diktats. That the EU have royally screwed up the vaccine procurement has got nothing to to with individual member states acting like fools. Incidentally, the whole blood clot non issue was started by Norway, not an EU member. That some EU member states chose lemming like to follow was entirely up to them (and contrary to the advice from the EMA).

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

Don’t forget the British government invested heavily in the development of AstraZeneca vaccine and it is being sold at cost unlike the other vaccines so I think the brits are doing more than their fair share for the world. The EU on the other hand appear to be creating chaos, why are the EU politicians getting involved commenting on scientific and medical matters, scaremongering citizens. The % of french citizens saying they won’t have a jab is seriously high, surely politicians should be encouraging their citizens to have the jab......

Jayne Thorburn ● 2049d

I think vaccine nationalism in the midst of a pandemic is, if possible, even more boneheaded than regular common or garden nationalism. I am hugely critical of the shower of malignantly incompetent clowns masquerading as our government, but they have, unquestionably, got the vaccine procurement very right and together with the NHS have rolled out a national vaccine program we can justifiably be proud of. They have also presided over the worst death toll in Europe, and one of the worst per capita death tolls in the world. Politicians of every stripe and nationality shoot their mouths off about things they are uniquely unqualified to comment on, nothing especially new there, and the French are famously one of the most vaccine skeptical countries in Europe, which makes Macron's initial comments about the AZ vaccine being "quasi-ineffective" in those over 65 especially egregious, and frankly inexcusable. He hasn't apologised for them, he should, and in the most unequivocal fashion.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

I agree that we have had an awful death count for this virus and it is still rising.However we have yet to see where we stand in relation to other countries when this is finally over,but we certainly have nothing to crow about.

Keith Iddon ● 2049d

HB-T > "The *EU* haven't exported *any* vaccines."I know. I should have said "made in the EU". KI's comment made me wonder about the sharing of vaccine production. The numbers I found provided some context.HB-T > "There is no technical export ban from the UK, just a requirement to supply the initial however many doses to the UK market."Manufacturers are not permitted to supply their overseas customers until UK requirements have been met?That sounds very much like a 'technical' export ban to me.

John Whitworth ● 2049d

Regardless of where the Blood clot issue started the EU should have consulted with the EMA before shouting their mouths off. In terms of deaths it is tragic but the brits are not the healthiest of folk en masse, we are known as the fat man of Europe and covid seems to favour people who are obese. If and it’s a big if our vaccine program works as the scientific and medical community hopes and Europe don’t get their act together fast then who knows how the numbers will pan out. Sterling is strengthening against the euro because of the vaccine programme I just pray people can get back to their work lives and recover quickly.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2049d

Manufacturers are legally required to fulfill contractual obligations, that's why you have contracts. The US isn't exporting any vaccines yet either and that is an outright export ban, rather than a technical one. The government having subsidised the production of the infrastructure required and paid a premium for the vaccine as well obviously specified that the 100 million doses they ordered be (partly) supplied from the plants they paid for before they started supplying other customers. All perfectly fair, above board & understandable I would say. Now *if* AZ then undertook to supply to someone else utilising these plants simultaneously as supplying the UK government then *AZ* have a problem & the injured party may seek legal recompense there, but this is nothing to do with the UK government.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

I would say that approaching 130,000 deaths is a touch more than "tragic." it is a horrifying indictment of a government too slow to act & incapable of following scientific advice. They ignored the advice to initially lock down earlier, which it is estimated caused an avoidable 25,000 deaths, they then opened up too early, and subsequently didn't lock down early enough and hard enough, until it was very nearly too late & the NHS teetered on the brink of collapse in the first few weeks of this year. All of which this has caused untold death & suffering, much of it avoidable.The EU cannot prevent rent-a-quote politicians from popping up here and there spouting nonsense & no doubt if they tried, they would immediately be attacked as an overbearing, draconian thought police. The price we pay for living in liberal democracies is people with large platforms saying idiotic things from time-to-time.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

Most of us are out for survival therefore don't wait to be told what to do regarding lockdowns and made our own choices to keep ourselves safe,However do think at the initial outbreak there was dithering and waiting as they knew nothing about Covid and transmission, also allowing travelbut think they were allowing people to get to where they wanted to be during th pandemic.

Janice Evans ● 2049d

HB-T > "Incidentally, the whole blood clot non issue was started by Norway, not an EU member."It can't be wholly dismissed.The MHRA have now issued a statement:"While we continue to investigate these cases, as a precautionary measure we would advise anyone with a headache that lasts for more than 4 days after vaccination, or bruising beyond the site of vaccination after a few days, to seek medical attention."I have received the AstraZeneca vaccine and will be following this with some interest.

John Whitworth ● 2049d

Funny thing John, I suffer with daily headaches and recently had the AZ first jab..... Never had a headache for 4 days, thought it had clear them but damn they came back....True by the way.

Janice Evans ● 2049d

Little advice, when you have your jabs don't hold your arm out just leave it straight by your side and try to relax, this should avoid painful arm.

Janice Evans ● 2049d

Forgot to add that had a few palpitations the first night, not sure if thatis usual.

Janice Evans ● 2049d

The EMA have just announced it's safe (again). It's a non issue. If (a huge if) any causal link were proven, you are talking about 3 cases in 120,000 doses administered (Norway) or a 0.000025% chance. It is hysterical overcautiousness. I am booked to get my shot next week. Were I given a choice the Pfizer vaccine has proved (very) marginally more effective against the existing variants, so might plump for that, but objectively I don't really care. The best vaccine available is the one that goes into your arm.A final point is that there have been more reported cases of blood clots in people injected with the Pfizer vaccine, it's still statistically insignificant, but more nevertheless, yet the AstraZeneca jab is the one that gets the Europe wide kicking. I wonder why that might be?

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2049d

My partner has just been given an appointment for her second dose

James Roy ● 2049d

Factually we will never know the difference if we had locked down one week earlier than we did, clearly covid was already widespread in the community. We have effectively been in lockdown since November and if it had not been for the vaccine we would still have thousands being hospitalised daily. We didn’t relax over Christmas period, it’s personal choice to stick to the rules regardless of what government said we can use our own brain......equally others use their brain and decide to have a party, or break from social distancing, family & friends in their home etc, we do have to take collective responsibility for our own behaviour and the impact on wider society. Hence get the jab....

Jayne Thorburn ● 2049d

Like you, Sam, I voted to join the EEC all those years ago, and I've been a passionate supporter of the European project ever since. As such, I'm appalled by the decision to leave the EU and the shabby behaviour of the UK government in relation to the Northern Ireland protocol, and all the more appalled by the chaos Brexit has caused. But what irks me beyond measure is the petulant behaviour of Ursula von der Leyen and the ill-will of Macron in relation to AstraZeneca's UK production. Von der Leyen says the contract between the EU and AstraZeneca clearly states how much vaccine the EU should receive from AstraZeneca’s plants inside the EU and the UK, which is either a misapprehension or a deliberate misrepresentation of the Advance Purchase Agreement. It's ludicrous that the EU should be whingeing about a shortfall in deliveries when von der Leyen has bad-mouthed the company and Macron has destroyed faith in its product, so that there are huge unwanted quantities in Europe. I suppose the only thing that can be said in mitigation is that the words and deeds of our government have been so hostile to the EU that some vindictiveness is only to be expected. But I hate to see that vindictiveness, and the comparative success of the UK vaccination programe (about the only thing our government hasn't cocked up during the pandemic), being used as an ex post facto justification for Brexit.

Robert Fish ● 2047d

With you all the way there, Robert.I feel the world needs to see itself in a Third World War. But against this virus. Humanity should be all in this together: then we could beat it.

Vivienne Cox ● 2047d

There still needs to be a public enquiry so that next time (and there will be a next time) the utmost is done to prevent deaths. It is very clear that there are questions that need to be looked into such as the delays in lockdown. Johnson dithered three times in accepting  a lockdown. Our borders were not closed, a breakdown in public trust after the Cummings incident, the PPE failure, the fact that Intensive Care beds remained unused because decisions were taken to allow older and disabled people to die and to keep the beds available to patients who were more likely to survive, the fact that the UK has a very poor ratio of intensive care beds to the population.An enquiry would also acknowledge the successes too.The government states that it has done its best. If that is the case then it has nothing to fear. An enquiry will also look at the NHS, Social Care, private care homes. We need to learn from this as we owe it to the people who have died.And of course, get vaccinated.

Stewart Jones ● 2046d

Well said Stewart.

Basil Finnis ● 2046d

There still needs to be a public inquiry so that next time (and there will be a next time) the utmost is done to prevent deathsLike the blanket Do Not Resuscitate order added to patients records without any discussion with the patient or any of their relatives.a DNR CPR is a legal document and appears on your discharge paperwork under the Legal Information heading,Just search the internet for articles about Blanket DNR's being being added to patients records over a certain age,This is just one of the manyhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56435428

Bernard Allen ● 2046d

Exactly that.

Stewart Jones ● 2046d

Mark Talbot ● 2046d

Mark TalbotAre you implying I am post misleading information?or you are calling me a liar?If so I want a written apology from you on hear, As I am telling the truth.Matt Hancock is trying to sort this out so it does happen again.The BMJ has also written articles about this subject. 

Bernard Allen ● 2046d

A little proofreading goes a long way.

Anne England ● 2046d

Get a Life

Bernard Allen ● 2046d

Who was your post directed to, Bernard?

Claire Moran ● 2046d

Mark TalbotAre you implying I am posting misleading information?or you are calling me a liar?If so, I want a written apology from you on hear, as I am telling the truth.Matt Hancock is trying to sort this out, so it does happen again.The BMJ has also written articles about this subject.

Bernard Allen ● 2046d

Mark TalbotAre you implying I am posting misleading information?or you are calling me a liar?If so, I want a written apology from you on hear, as I am telling the truth.Matt Hancock is trying to sort this out, so it doesn’t happen again.The BMJ has also written articles about this subject.

Bernard Allen ● 2046d

You could say Macron has jabbed himself in the foot !

John Southey ● 2045d

Bernard - No & No. Look at the "Tory MPs are totally irresponsible" thread.

Mark Talbot ● 2045d

Apologies MarkI see the same heading has been put under the same account on that thread.But what has been said is true, many people died that didn't need to, because there to many mistakes and the subject I highlighted, needs to be investigated.   

Bernard Allen ● 2045d