Forum Topic

Staveley and Hartington Road restrictions are bad for Grove Park residents

The barrier on Staveley is very poorly designed. From what I can see it is pushing traffic from a wide road that’s a main and efficient artery through Grove Park to smaller and narrower residential roads.  What problem exactly was it supposed to solve? If it’s people going too fast down Staveley then a few speed bumps and redesigning the calming islands would do, surely? Likewise, the new restrictions on Hartington Road are poorly thought through. I support stopping rat runs through Grove Park - I think all resident do - but restricting access to Hartington Road to only those with a resident parking permit for that road and those immediately adjacent is very portly conceived. What about the rest of us Grove Park residents who need access to this road? Please let all of Grove Park use Hartington, it’s an important access road for all of us.    Why do the driving/parking rule makers in Hounslow Council think so one dimensionally and inevitably create more problems than they solve every single time they act?  Why is it seemingly impossible for them to design solutions from a whole  community perspective rather than blithely pretending displacement doesn’t exist? If you are reading this Hounslow council please hear our consistent plea for more than a decade since too started rolling out CPZs street by street: please treat us as one community and stop dividing us.’

Glenn Manoff ● 2131d42 Comments

Agreed wholeheartedly - this rubbish ugly barrier in Staveley is not only incredibly revolting to look at- it makes us a laughing stock. Come on council please realise you have cost us a fortune but made a pleasant area now uninviting - and these  ridiculous cameras in Hartington road stupid- thank goodness I do not live in that road  - is this helping bikes who only travel very infrequently down this road?

Helen Bamberger ● 2131d

To continue - if I had a friend who turned up to see me in Hartington and had no idea that they should write to the council first  - and then fined - .?

Helen Bamberger ● 2131d

I'd be far more worried about what the Govt is costing us handing out contracts to random companies/people with no experience for services that don't work.

Philippa Bond ● 2131d

As I repeat - a friend turns up in Hartington because she or he has no idea they can't unless they have contacted the council to put their details on the website - is this how the future is going ?

Helen Bamberger ● 2131d

"What problem exactly was it supposed to solve? "5,500 drivers a day, probably 5,000 or so of them shortcutting through an entirely residential street.

Ken Munn ● 2131d

Yes, it will get worse. They don’t understand the software they’re using, so decided to create a new exemption database, run that manually, ban all but a handful of local traffic, then divert the remaining past local schools, sending residents on dangerous detours. It’s a poor solution that could have been so much better.And my how the Hounslow Cycling camp followers cheer it on without thought...

Russell Pearson ● 2131d

KenIf you knew or cared about anything other than reading from the "if it disrupts car drivers it's good" script, you would realise that:1. Closing Hartington to cut through traffic has moved it to Burlington2. So the 8500 (or 5000?) cut through cars have now moved from mainly non-pedestrian streets to very pedestrian streets.3. Specifically, past Chiswick School main entrance; past a key entrance to Chiswick Park; past the train station. They didn't go that way before.4. The result is more danger to 1200 school children that wasn't there before and more pollution that wasn't there before.Even your blinkered eyes must be able to see that?Can you think about people for once? Pollution and danger to 1,200 pupils of Chiswick School that wasn't there before. Stupid, poorly thought out, tick box scheme for stupid people.

Richard Potts ● 2130d

Ken and his chums are entirely blinkered. As you say, every scheme is applauded, dangerous implications and displaced traffic are ignored, seem to be someone else problem. The short sightedness is amazing, none of them live on the roads with diverted traffic. Ken does not it seem live in Grove Park.

Paul Green ● 2130d

Drivers belong on trunk roads unless it's their last few hundred yards. So, LBH, bite the bullet and filter through-drivers off of Burlington, etc. See how it's done between Fulham Palace Road and the Thames for one local example.I've been avoiding driving through Grove Park since the Stavelely closure was first mooted, using the A4/A316. Guess what – it doesn't usually take any longer and is often as quick or quicker.

Ken Munn ● 2130d

So basically Ken you are saying the problems are being caused because most people are not as amazing and clever as you?

Felicity Caborn ● 2130d

"Drivers belong on trunk roads unless it's their last few hundred yards"Precisely, and if I'm travelling from the end of Chiswick Bridge to Sutton Court Road, that is the last few hundred yards of my journey. As I've said on previous postings, I am not 'rat running', I'm going home. The Hartington Road route should be available to all the residents of Grove Park south of the A4, but of course, this means little to our law-makers in distant Hounslow.

Colin Jordan ● 2130d

Ken is one of the rat runners are the cause of the problem - he should halve always kept to the main roads rather than rat running through a residential area to save a few minutes. It’s locals needing access that’s the issue - rat runners like Ken that are the cause.

Russell Pearson ● 2130d

A very valid point Philippa, but it has little to do with the Staveley and Hartington Road restrictions which is being discussed here.Perhaps you can open a separate thread to discuss that other topic that worries you so much?

Alex Shpinkov ● 2130d

Why should whether you live south or north of the A4 make any difference?  Both are part of Chiswick.  If you live in Chiswick and, for example, have shopped at Chiswick Richmond then are you really rat running by cutting through Hartington Road to SCR rather than taking the A316 to Hogarth Roundabout, back west on the A4 and turning right onto SCR?It should not be beyond the wit of man, or in the case the 1/2 wit of LBH, to design a database the covers all of Chiswick

Justin Stephenson ● 2130d

just to say that I do live around Staveley and I think these new laws are an infringement of human rights - we all have a right to drive around our roads - or do we any more ? Is this democracy or does it sound as though the council Just think it is their right to do as they want ?

Helen Bamberger ● 2130d

"an infringement of human rights - we all have a right to drive around our roads "Be grateful if you could point out where that is enshrined in legislation.

Ken Munn ● 2130d

No Ken - no legistration - but you obviously think the council can do anything - let's hope nothing goes against your views.

Helen Bamberger ● 2130d

'but you obviously think the council can do anything'Not at all - in fact this council often seems unable to do anything very much. However driving along a road is not human right. In fact, I doubt if driving is defined as a human right anywhere.

Ken Munn ● 2130d

Ok Ken- you have your views and I have mine !!! Just think our roads are being ruined and especially Hartington where no one can just go along the road in a car without being fined- and you must admit that the revolting red and white bollards are an eye sore in Staveley ...

Helen Bamberger ● 2130d

... a close friend who lives in Haseldene Road urgently needed to take her Rescue Dog to Medivet at Chalkers Corner  for what she believed was a 'life and death' health issue. But instead of taking less than 10 minutes it took double that time due to her not being able to use Hartington Road. Zero thought and consideration has been given by LB Hounslow to emergency situations such as this.Ken, do you have any pearls of wisdom  about such situations  ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2130d

Why was she unable to use Hartington Road to get to Chalkers Corner?Also, I'm not sure I can square 'life and death' situation with an unwillingness to risk a fine at a spot where I'm not even sure enforcement is active. No complaints seem to be forthcoming about PCNs just yet.

Francis Rowe ● 2130d

I so agree with you Loraine - hope the dog survived - am also interested what Ken thinks ...

Helen Bamberger ● 2130d

For future reference there is no restriction on driving along Hartington Road in a northerly direction (i.e. from Grove Park to the A316/ Chiswick Bridge), it's the return journey that would require permission. However I think this only demonstrates how confused people are about these measures - even many of the truly locals aren't sure where they can and can't go. Throw in the uncertainty surrounding enforcement and you really do have a proper mess.

Bruce Hammal ● 2130d

@ Alex  You're tunnel visioned.

Philippa Bond ● 2130d

Mr Ken ‘Rat Run’ Munn thinks it’s fine for him to drive through Grove Park to try and save some time. But now he’s been stopped, he wants to make it as hard as possible for people living in Grove Park to get in or out their homes.

Russell Pearson ● 2130d

What a load of ol' toot - to quote a local author.

Ken Munn ● 2130d

Unlike some ‘local authors’ I won’t labour the point, so tootle on.

Russell Pearson ● 2130d

I am not supporting the new arrangements but  if it were a life or death situation, I’d not be concerned  about a fine or points.

Stewart Jones ● 2130d

"I doubt if driving is defined as a human right anywhere"How odd, then, cyclists often take the position they have the right to cycle where they want when they want everyone else be damned.

David Lesniak ● 2129d

HelenFortunately Medivet quickly identified the problem and the dog is now recovering.Getting back to the confusion of Hartington Road ingress and egress, it has not been made clear what's permitted, however thanks to a previous post on this thread apparently exit to the A316 from Hartington Road is permitted.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2129d

There is a guide to the various traffic schemes. Hopefully some of them won't be there for long  but in the meanwhile it's worth all locals familiarising themselves with the measures - if only to guide visitors through  the maze of potential fines.https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20053/transport/2181/south_chiswick_liveable_neighbourhood

Bruce Hammal ● 2129d

Most people are likely to be aware of the restrictions because of how controversial they have been but there will always be a proportion who will not know about them. What Ealing Council have done is made the first two weeks of implementation a period in which warning notices rather than PCNs are issued. This seems a sensible approach although the amnesty should really start now and end two weeks after lockdown is over.In addition Hounslow could extend the warning period for people who live in the W4 postcode because these aren't the journeys that the measure aims to discourage. Experience suggests Hounslow won't do this. The leniency promised over Turnham Green Terrace fines never happened and this restriction, like most of their Streetspace measures, seem driven by revenue rather than transport and safety considerations. I'm reluctant to give my home borough of Ealing credit, as they are so terrible at other things, but they do seem to be genuinely aiming to change people's mode of transport with the money that the government has given them for this purpose.

Mark Evans ● 2129d

My Hounslow PCN warning Notice received in Central Chiswick today says Hartington Road fines for those leaving the A316 will commence on Monday 4th January.  Happy New Year.    Just to be clear it explains that traffic headed towards A316 will not be illegal.  The fines are for those travelling Northwards from A316 along Hartington.    Beware, all Central Chiswick Zone residents!

Peter Crowther ● 2129d

Where the hell is this newly formed Central Chiswick Zone?  Why has Chiswick been chopped up into strange and unfamiliar zones.  We are a community called CHISWICK with a London post code W4 ---.  Majority of Chiswick residents wish it to remain so.

Jennifer Selig ● 2129d

It’s important that as many opposing voices as possible are heard to challenge Hounslow Council's view that these schemes are well supported.  WE NEED TO RAISE THE DIFFICULTIES AND MISERIES THESE HAVE CAUSED US HERE IN GROVE PARK.  Now is our chance.  HOUNSLOW COUNCIL are ASKING FOR YOUR OPINIONS and we in Grove Park can do so on MON 11th JANUARY.    •    7pm on MONDAY, 11th JANUARY: South Chiswick (LBH LANGUAGE FOR SOUTH OF THE A4 - incl. Hartington Rd)It is online, book via Eventbrite using the link below. Hounslow Council wants people to submit questions in advance though they can also be asked during the sessions.  More details via the link.  https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/news/article/2236/hounslow_moves_ahead_with_next_round_of_phases_1_and_2_streetspace_engagementThere are four events, allocated by area, anyone can attend. and I've listed them here. The dates are:•    7pm on Thursday, 7th January: BUSINESSES  boroughwide•    7pm on Friday, 8th January: North Chiswick (LBH language for north of the A4 - including C9 in Chiswick and Brentford & the road closures in the centre of Chiswick)•    7pm on MONDAY, 11th JANUARY: South Chiswick (LBH LANGUAGE FOR SOUTH OF THE A4 - incl. Hartington Rd & Thames Road)•    7pm on Tuesday, 12th January: IsleworthPlease circulate this widely to friends, family and neighbourhood groups. It is vital that the other side of the argument regarding the borough’s UNASKED FOR INTERFERENCE and inept management of our roads and traffic in W4 is heard.Hounslow have yet more LTN's planned for us here in W4.  So get your voices out there now before they start on the next tranche of misery.

Jennifer Selig ● 2129d

The map of Chiswick areas is here as part of this article on the front page:http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&page=concovid019.htm

Philippa Bond ● 2129d

JenniferThanks for sharing the Eventbrite links - unfortunately both the North and South Chiswick events are "SOLD OUT"My question remains: Why did Hounslow design a scheme to route the traffic from the 2 A316 cut through routes, to run past the main entrance to a school and a busy mainline train station?Namely, closing the main north bound cut through of Hartington Rd and the secondary one of Staveley Rd and leaving Burlington Lane open.This is by design not accident. On some of the council maps of S Chiswick Burlington Lane is marked as a "through route"Why was this done?The impacts are:- increased pollution for 1200 school children- increased traffic at morning rush hour when children are walking/crossing BL- increased traffic at the busy pedestrian entrance to Chiswick mainline station/Co-op- the 1st section of BL is narrow double parked cars outside the school and park, there is an extreme danger of an accidentIF Hounslow accept one route for a rat run  is needed then Hartington Rd via the rai Bridge to SCR is the least impactful on pedestrians and children and risk of accidents.IF Hounslow wanted to stop all rat running then why didn't they add similar restrictions to HR and SR on BL?

Richard Potts ● 2128d

This is exactly what they’ve done - divert traffic past schools and busy pedestrian areas. Checking Google maps, there are also several other schools, nurseries, and a children’s football academy for kids from other areas, in that one small section. What’s more - Commonplace identified a hotspot near the train station / Park Road -  so the response was to increase the traffic there.

Russell Pearson ● 2128d

Richard  you should send your comments to the government, grant shapes and the other one, name escapes me, both of whom instigated these LTN ideas and offered £s in bribe money to councils to install them fast.  Another fine mess you got me in about sums it up!

Jennifer Selig ● 2128d

Glenn,You are right on all counts. Especially that these measures set neighbour against neighbour in a way that can only be divisive. The barrier does push traffic from a wide road into a smaller one, creating frustrated and speeding motorists. Apparently the council cited a cost of £20k each for speed humps but this can hardly be believed can it? There was clearly an agenda to do what they have done. And it will be a matter of time before there is a serious accident somewhere as a result.

Simon Meyers ● 2127d

You can forget about joining the "we want to hear your comments" online meetings with Hounslow Council - well they can't THEY CLOSED.  System used permits max 100 comments - wrong system selected - there's a surprise!

Jennifer Selig ● 2126d

Ken Munn. You posted this earlier "I've been avoiding driving through Grove Park since the Stavelely closure was first mooted, using the A4/A316. Guess what – it doesn't usually take any longer and is often as quick or quicker." Can I ask what time of day or night you have found your new route "as quick or quicker"? 

Jim Currie ● 2115d