Forum Topic

Deal done

EU trade deal done Well thank god for that. Hopefully we can move on from this and crucially buisness will be sitting this morning with some hope moving forward. Some wont be happy but it is what it is.

Julian Pavey ● 2134d109 Comments

It is good that it looks certain that a deal is going to happen. The alternative would have been disastrous. It is of course merely a goods and products deal. So half of what the UK had whilst in the EU. So much more a reason for relief than a reason for celebration. It is as if we’ve worked hard for four years to merely hamper and hinder our prosperity but at least not ruined it. So I guess a good outcome might be a fair but generous description.

Alan Clark ● 2134d

"EU trade deal done"What's your source for that?  The BBC website says "on the brink of a deal" but an expected 7am call between Johnson and the EU Commission President has not yet happened.

Richard Jennings ● 2134d

"What's your source for that" The media in general Richard Take no notice of the BBC,they told everyone at 6am the other day that potatoes were running dry on supermarket shelves because of the block on freight at Dover. Only to drop the potato news half an hour later Clearly someone was not on the "boil" regards potatoes and thought lincolnshire is somewhere in the south of france growing next to olives and grapes 😀😎

Julian Pavey ● 2134d

"Take no notice of the BBC"So which media do you trust?Sky.com: "EU and UK are about to announce ..."

Richard Jennings ● 2134d

I have nothing further to add general consensus i beleive is breakfast of the day

Julian Pavey ● 2134d

This is typical of Boris and Ursula..Too much interruptus and not enough coitus..

Stuart Kerr ● 2134d

It looks like fish quotas for the EU will not come down by very much in the immediate future. Still, Scottish fishermen being ditched by London Tories is nothing new.The issue of seed potatoes being excluded from the trade deal, apart from mainly affecting the livelihoods of some Scottish farmers, lays bare the reality of Northern Ireland's future status. Rules dealing with exports of Scottish seed potatoes to Northern Ireland will be treated  in the same way as those applying to the "rest" of the EU. So much for sovereignty!

John Connelly ● 2134d

JP > "EU trade deal done"If only...The legal text is reported to be around 2,000 pages long, so it is almost certainly a mixed treaty encompassing both EU-level and member state competencies. That will require member state ratification, including regional assemblies (e.g. Wallonia). There is an outside chance, depending on the content, that some states may have to hold a referendum to ratify the deal - that would be interesting!Ratification is also needed from the EU parliament, and the UK parliament will have to approve legislation allowing the treaty to take effect. There will be some scrutiny, but it will be a rushed affair so expect some bitterness and recriminations to come.Having said all that, this is substantially better than departing without trade and partnership agreements.I would say it's the end of the beginning.Merry Christmas.

John Whitworth ● 2134d

A more detailed account and I find an often more reliable source.https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/johnson-to-announce-eu-trade-deal-after-cutting-fisheries-pact/?utm_source=EURACTIV&utm_campaign=2d1e010c5b-RSS_EMAIL_EN_Politics&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c59e2fd7a9-2d1e010c5b-116228987

Katrina Black ● 2134d

Sounds like a lot of 'ifs' and buts' so far, and the best of a very bad job. Still I look forward to hearing from all those very clever people who claimed 'we knew what we were votng for'. I will never forgive them.

Vanessa Smith ● 2134d

With all the depressing news around covid can we not at least be happy that a deal has been done. It was utter madness to leave our biggest trading partners even pre covid but add covid into the mix it would have been suicide. So peace is restored journalist will have to find some new stories ha! Please no more covid news let’s celebrate little wins and be positive about our future. Merry Christmas and goodwill to all x

Jayne Thorburn ● 2134d

The french had a perfect excuse to block access to the EU just for a couple of days and the ensuing chaos in Kent and the fresh food shortages to follow gave Boris a clear view of a no deal exit to come.And a deal is born!!!!!It will be complete s'''t, the brexit brides will have been dumped at the alter, they will be screaming betrayal.The rest of us will be suffering the consequences for years to come.No one is going to be really happy and very few will actually benefit in any way shape or form.Boris Johnson in his relentless pursuit of the premiership to satisfy his monstrously inflated ego has f****d the country, the union and every single one of us.Merry Xmas.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2134d

A bad deal is vastly better than no deal, and so, by that appallingly low bar can this news be welcomed. No deal that we agree can ever be as good as the one we have just ripped up. We are the only nation in history to start out from a position of frictionless trade with our nearest neighbours, and then set about introducing barriers to that. I think once the reality of what we have agreed (if indeed an agreement has been reached, apparently an announcement was supposed to have been made at 08.00 today) pressure will start to build to rejoin the Single Market & Customs Union. I can see that happening in the next 5 years or so, but not under this government.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2134d

So true.My suspicion is that Brexit supporters will now fall into two camps. The nutter, super hard exit fans will decry this deal as a sell out as it will maintain much of the EU standards - critical to doing business with the EU.The second camp, the don't like the EU but understand the need to continue to trade with them line of thinking, will now start blaming the EU for all forthcoming problems. So the French and Germans will steal our bankers. The Spanish will continue to steal our fish. The Polish will be lazy for no longer coming to the UK to fill all those essential roles. Everyone in fact will be to blame - just not those who voted for Brexit.

Alan Clark ● 2134d

Something tells me you're Scottish. There are other fishing communities in the UK too, you know.

Anne England ● 2134d

I said deal done, i did not say signed off

Julian Pavey ● 2134d

"the ensuing chaos in Kent and the fresh food shortages to follow"The lorries were all going to Europe weren't they?  So how exactly does that give rise to food shortages??Or did you mean on the continent?

Derek Hill ● 2134d

Eh? I will type slowly as it looks as though your brain has not fully engaged yet today.The lorries that were aiming to leave the UK had brought produce into the UK - and they were returning. There are other lorries on the Calais side that are waiting to come to the UK. The UK imports a lot of food stuffs from various EU countries; more than it exports to the EU. There are no, nor will there be, shortages in the EU and also no panic buying.

Alan Clark ● 2134d

Press Conference in next hour or so

Claire Moran ● 2134d

Sky reporting deal done (Sophie Ridge)

Claire Moran ● 2134d

We should all be eternally grateful to the French. My fellow-director, who is French, thought the cross-channel lorry ban rather vindictive, but I think it was a stroke of genius. The ensuing chaos seems to have finally brought Johnson to the realisation of the full horror of what he was about to inflict on us with his ridiculous, chest-beating brinkmanship.

Robert Fish ● 2134d

Bearing in mind that currently 70% of fish quotas for UK waters are allocated to EU countries not UK then if the reporting on the BBC is correct (and I accept that is a big if) namely that over a 5 year transition period the quotas would move to 2/3rds UK, 1/3rd EU that would constitute a major improvement for the UK fishing industry.

Justin Stephenson ● 2134d

Feels strange that whether we leave with no trade deal or a negotiated trade deal is now down to 27 other countries.I'm very pleased indeed (or should that be very relieved?) that a deal is a realistic prospect now, and I have no problem with the fact that we are now dependent on what 27 other countries decide - it is after all what we signed up for when this country voted to leave in the referendum.I wonder how those who voted to leave feel now? A whole range of different emotions.

Andrew Jones ● 2134d

A deal was always going to be done it was complete madness not too, by definition both sides were going to compromise so I hope those that voted Brexit will accept the compromise. As a remainer and someone who does business across Europe I am relieved so well done to all the negotiators 👏👏👏👏  both sides.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2134d

So why are there going to be food shortages in the UK? Or is Macron the moron going to stop lorries crossing from France? I would guess quite a few of the lorries returning to the continent were fully loaded.  That's what they usually do otherwise it wouldn't be worth doing a one way journey. They wouldn't necessarily be taking food to the EU either, or vice versa for that matter.  Perhaps you should engage your brain before making such statements.

Derek Hill ● 2134d

“War is over” says Farage. Looks like a compromise from both sides to achieve that, but (and please forgive my political nativity) - does it mark the final defeat of the Remainers, or will they reform as Rejoiners?

Russell Pearson ● 2134d

Personally I don’t think much will actually change, of course there will be negotiations constantly in the future, more paperwork for exports but all can be overcome. This is much better than no deal and all the chaos that would cause fro business, jobs and UK investment. As a remainer it’s a compromise thank god hard Brexit didn’t win! Is was never a war hopefully Farage will disappear.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2134d

'Parting is such sweet sorrow'. Ursula Von der Leyen does know that Romeo & Juliet doesn't end well?

Susan Kelly ● 2134d

I liked the quote from TS Eliot better. But she could have said, 'December is the cruellest month.'

Claire Moran ● 2134d

So it seems that, late on Christmas Eve (when Parliament, most businesses and most markets are closed), we have got to the "least worst outcome" on Brexit.The predictions are that this deal will damage the UK econonomy by "only" 4% loss of GDP, as against 6% loss (year on year) in a no-deal scenario (so the deal is only 66% as bad a "no deal").  Contrast this with the 2.4% - 2.5% GDP growth we were enjoying before the referendum, this means that over the next 5 years we can expect to be about 28% poorer that we would otherwise have been (which I suppose is at least better than the projected 35% poorer in the event of a no deal).That's before we even start to bring Covid into the equation.And I very much doubt that this decline will be suffered equally across everyone the country.  It is likely to fall more heavily on the lower skilled and poorer members of society.  And even if it did fall equally - a family with a comfortable income may be able to weather a 30% drop in real income, whereas for those families already struggling, this will be devasating.We have already seen a 25% drop in the value of the pound against the Euro since before the referendum, down from mid 1.40s to now stablising at around 1.11.  This means that the costs of imports from the EU (including food) have increased by a third.Now I, like thousands of other business people and advisers, will have to hope that the anticipated 2,000 page agreement will be published in the next day or so, so that we can work out what the UK's commercial and financial arrangement will be with the EU in a week's time.  Not much time to prepare for that brave new world.Still - could have been worse.

T P Howell ● 2134d

See docs here, compare and contrast:- https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_2531https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948093/TCA_SUMMARY_PDF.pdfThe lawyers are going to get very, very rich over this

Claire Moran ● 2134d

The deal is not done yet.It still needs approval by the EU Parliament and the 27 member states.  It is the latter requirement that is of most concern.  France may veto because the fishing compromise is not good enough for them, the Spanish may veto because of Gibraltar, the Flemish may veto because the Walloons are in favour (or vice versa), etc., etc.

Justin Stephenson ● 2134d

I suspect anyone who steps out of line will be firmly sat on by von der Leyen et al

Claire Moran ● 2134d

CM > "The lawyers are going to get very, very rich over this"UK lawyers or lawyers from EU member states?I'm not sure whether the qualifications, licences and liability insurance held by UK lawyers will still be recognised by EU bodies. Likewise the other way round.

John Whitworth ● 2134d

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-24/erasmus-study-abroad-programme-to-be-replaced-with-worldwide-turing-scheme

Claire Moran ● 2134d

The Spectator is pretty upbeat on it. Here’s an example:“ Leaving aside the diehard, swivel-eyed campaigners on both sides of the debate – and we have probably heard enough from them for any sane country over the last four years – the economic impact of leaving the European Union was always finely balanced. Extra trade friction would mean we would lose some exports to the EU, but since they were falling anyway – and we had a huge trade deficit with the rest of Europe – that hardly amounted to much. Against that, we would save on contributions to its Budget, but given the vast scale of state spending it was not that big a deal. Net-net EU membership was never that crucial to the British economy.There was one big prize, however. Over the last two decades it has become clear that the EU is not so much an over-mighty regulator as a really bad one. Mainly because it is bureaucratic and un-democractic, and often under the sway of the lobbyists who spend billions in Brussels every year, it has become more and more intent on clamping down on every form of innovation. That could be seen most clearly in the internet and app economy. It became increasingly hard to believe that Europe’s dire performance against the American and now Chinese giants had nothing to do with the way the industry was crippled by its regulators. But it crept into every area of the economy, from finance, to legal and professional services, to intellectual property. If it was new, innovative and entrepreneurial, the EU either banned it, broke it up, or burdened it with so many costs it was impossible for new companies to get going or to scale up when they did.”

Russell Pearson ● 2134d

Thanks, Russell, I think that's a good start as to the majority of this country who wanted to leave think.  It is now imperative that all UK citizens stop being intellectually lazy, leaving it all up to some overseas body who in turn pretended any issus were the fault of the EU,  and take an active part in politics, that they campaign and ultimately vote in both local council and national elections for the people who have the right idea about the future of this country.  IMHO Ealing and Chiswick councils for a start need to be sacked. The buck on responsibility must and should stop locally, and the deal (however bad it is in the expert analysis) is hopefully the start of that.

Claire Moran ● 2134d

A big opportunity and a definite need to rejuvenate both politics and the public sphere. Could well all go Pete Tong unless they get out of the echo chamber that passes for discourse. & indeed - Cllr Curran’s LBH often reminds me of a Brexit lampoon of Brussels.

Russell Pearson ● 2134d

Or Kafka.  A huge obstruction in the middle of a narrow pavement that makes socially distancing virtually impossible is fine, whereas they gleefully accept money to do just that.  Clear stupidity, failure to provide a risk assessment and very possibly corruption, as others have posted.

Claire Moran ● 2134d

We are also free to cut our own deals with the rest of the world, we have a lot of talent in the country together we can make this work. We have heard enough about Brexit let’s move on and take the opportunity

Jayne Thorburn ● 2134d

Surely the simple test for the deal is national interest based around questions such as:1. Is it better than what we had before?2. Does it deliver what was promised?3. Does it impose new costs on British businesses?4. Does it downgrade any of our rights?5.  Does it make the UK less secure?I would say:1. No2. No - partly because different politicians made different promises.3. Yes4. Yes5. YesAnd it’s taken four years to get a deal. Anyway we are where we are and Theresa May was obviously wrong  - a bad deal is better than no deal. But this is what we have decided. But please don’t ask me to ‘get behind it’ whatever that means. I’ll need a lot of persuading to justify any of my rights being taken away for a blue passport which is worth less than the previous one.Joyeux Noël à tous.

Stewart Jones ● 2134d

Yes Jayne, it’s all waffle now otherwise.

Russell Pearson ● 2134d

Ireland is desperate for a deal. I don't believe that Merkel or Macron will stab them in the back or allow any other EU country to do so.

Susan Kelly ● 2134d

There will be no more automatic recognition for doctors, nurses, architects, dentists, pharmacists, vets, engineers. They will now have to seek recognition in the member state they wish to practise in. Not sure about lawyers but someone out there will.

Stewart Jones ● 2134d

Beusiness's might welcome it but real business's might not?

Basil Finnis ● 2134d

So some professionals will have to reregister. Good job it wasn’t a deal stopper - easily sorted out.

Russell Pearson ● 2134d

Absolutely BOLLOCKS

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2134d

And Brexit had  already cost the UK £200 billion.

Stewart Jones ● 2133d

Fantastic news.  So we are out of the union and now we can trade in a sensible way with them.  What’s not to like.  As time went on I am more convinced we took the right decision to leave.  We are not as powerful as the Germans or as clever at gaming the system  as the French.  We tend to follow rules (unless we are backed into a corner) so we were always at a disadvantage in Brussels.  By the accounts I have read Lord Frost and his team did a good job in difficult circumstances to get the deal done so quickly and not overly in favour of Europe.  What a different place we would be in if Cameron was listened to or Teresa May wasn’t humiliated by Brussels.  But that’s the point.

Charles Carr-Jones ● 2133d

It’s a worse deal than the one put forward by May to which Johnson threw a hissy fit and resigned. We were promised that things won’t stay the same but that they will significantly improve. So far we have lost rights, billions of pounds and respect around the world. I’m looking forward to the £350 million a week for the NHS from January 1st.You claim that we tend to follow rules. Very little evidence of that. We have a PM who lies. We don’t care about international law particularly. Johnson does it even follow his rules in a pandemic. We were hugely influential in the EU and had negotiated a great deal not being in the Euro, Schengen etc. Of course, it was not perfect but  we have deliberately made ourselves poorer for nothing.

Stewart Jones ● 2132d

You say poorer for nothing -  what about dignity, liberty and democracy maybe that is worth 4%

Charles Carr-Jones ● 2132d

I think you’ll find that most on this forum only see things in narrow economic terms, and also believe that the EU is thoroughly democratic, so I doubt these concepts will have much purchase here.

Russell Pearson ● 2132d

Of course unlike our present government who've done more to reverse democracy in the United Kingdom than any before it? Whilst awarding contracts to friends which would put a tin pot dictatorship to shame.

Basil Finnis ● 2132d

Brexiteers  sometimes give the impression that they have sole ownership over democracy etc and always hint that people who wished to remain are somehow less patriotic.Dignity- we have behaved appallingly during this process threatening gunboats last week and finally settling for a deal that is much worse than the one Johnson resigned over. Our reputation internationally is in shreds. We have been completely disingenuous.Liberty - we had control over our borders, we have fewer rights now than everyone else in the EU, our EU deal was great - we weren’t in the Euro or Schengen etcDemocracy - yes we voted to leave the EU. We’ve left. People have been promised things will immediately improve. No sense  of that yet. And this from a country that ennobles friends of the government into its second chamber like Russian oligarchs, loutish cricket players, and IRA apologists into its second chamber.4% may not sound a lot but it is significant and it will impact mostly on poorer people with significant hikes in prices. And it’s already cost the country £200 billion.So, we are actually poorer for less. But at least Rees Mogg has avoided the European Tax initiative and will be able to hide away his money abroad. So that’s ok thenOn our road, which is probably pretty representative of W4, most of the children all play together, many go to the same schools - the parents all very aware that now the children are no longer equal in the eyes of the law. Those entitled to EU passports will have many more rights than those only entitled to a UK passport. I get no sense from the government or Brexiteers in general, that they have any understanding that the 48% who voted to remain are deeply saddened because rights have been taken away from us and our children. We get triumphalism, jingoistic nonsense, you lost getoveritism, and you can always go and live somewhere else.

Stewart Jones ● 2132d

Pretty much agree with those sentiments and I feel the only thing that has been 'done'is us! Us Remainers are indeeed 'the silenced majority'.

Vanessa Smith ● 2132d

Erm, I know It took Trump a while for the penny to drop, but one side got less votes, that makes them the minority, and a far from silent one too. Whichever way people voted, upholding basic democratic principles is the most important thing, best to accept defeat and move on. We need to all work together to make our democracy a much better system, now is the time and the opportunity to do that.

Russell Pearson ● 2132d

If your idea of working together means not being able to hold the government and other Leavers to account for the decision they have made then it’s  not going to happen. Promises have been made, after all.Making our democracy a much better system (your words) has absolutely nothing to do with being in the EU.  We could have introduced PR, reformed the HoL without any requirement to even discuss with the EU as a sovereign country within the EU.This deal is worse than the one that Johnson resigned over so I am rather disinclined to get behind a PM who lies.

Stewart Jones ● 2132d

Sovereignty is apparently pooled in the EU, in a system with a democratic deficit. That’s their problem now. And here? Yes, you’re right, plenty needs reforming or even abolishing.

Russell Pearson ● 2132d

The UK like any sovereign nation within the EU could have reformed or abolished things without any recourse to the EU.

Stewart Jones ● 2131d

Let's hope business has the capacity to cope with the forms, or will we have to call in EU companies to help. We are going to call in 30000 EU and 3rd country workers for the farms.

Nicholas Beard ● 2131d

The country had the vote, out won, like the 48% who voted in I was very sadden and just couldn’t understand why so many people voted out but they did. Anyone who understood our role in the EU knew the EU would make is really hard during negotiations and we wouldn’t get what the campaign for out promoted. At least we have a compromise which isn’t perfect but then it was never going to be.......we all need to move on and make the most of the opportunity. For most people nothing will change, we have to go through ‘other’ when travelling not really a hardship, we can spend 90 days every 180 days in Europe, get a visa, the reality is our professional certifications will be accepted, no tariffs so if prices go up that’s down to the seller. Most companies already have staff completing forms it’s called operations. Our rights are not eroded, we are a civilised society so let’s stop scaremongering.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2131d

There is no opportunity, its just damage limitation, we will spend years trying to fix the mess all to placate Bill Cash and his band of sovereign dinosaurs.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2131d

Let’s agree to disagree that attitude will get you know where. I do a lot of business in Europe service industry and not affected at all in fact we have won business in the last 3 months........

Jayne Thorburn ● 2131d

I can see a lot of Microsoft Power Automate projects coming up to sort out the red tape - get the bots doing the grind work, and a great little productivity booster too - just where we need to focus.

Russell Pearson ● 2131d

I also do not anticipate difficulty in selling my company's services into the EU. But I'm not involved in financial services. Therein lies a huge problem, with the loss of passporting.

Robert Fish ● 2131d

What is the opportunity and how does it compare to the losses that every independent business body suggests our country has and will lose?

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2131d

I am not aware of any losses, financial markets will work it through, too much scaremongering, focus on what you can do and yes power apps will play a critical role as companies improve their digital platform. Covid has forced company to get on top of their digital services which isn’t a bad thing once you get your head around it ha! technology is driving the world

Jayne Thorburn ● 2131d

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/27/take-solace-in-this-brexit-deal-it-is-so-terrible-it-will-ultimately-bring-us-back-to-the-eu?

Philippa Bond ● 2131d

Classic Hutton. He’s playing the the crowd and no doubt he’s made a good living batting out the same tired old ideas for a few decades.

Russell Pearson ● 2131d

I will confess my bias.  I voted to remain, it was and remains my view that the UK would be better economically inside the EU than outside.  But the remain side lost the vote.I feel that the debate has not moved on since 2016.  Both sides endlessly re-run the same tired arguments from the Referendum campaign.  It is time to move on, we have a deal which is no doubt not ideal for either UK or EU (that is what happens in a negotiation).  When the CV19 pandemic finally relents and the world starts to crawl its way back to normal the UK needs to make the best of the position it is in

Justin Stephenson ● 2131d

Oh! The irony of it all. For a party and government that has banged on and on about de-regulating and tearing up red tape, to land in a situation where even more red tape will be the order of the day is a sick joke. Why did Bozza go on and on about bloody fishing? The fact is in our economy it is a piddling little amount, yet the financial services sector which, on the other hand is a huge part of it is left dangling to fend for itself. Possibly, the P.M. knows that fishing folk are representative of the Leave constituencies which broke down the 'red wall' for his party and his job? January 1st will be a sad day for the U.K. and anyone who thinks this is the end of it is bonkers, there will be shifts and re-negotiations over many things for years to come from all sides.

Vanessa Smith ● 2130d

Good analysis in the Spectator - there’s bound to be red tape when dealing with any Byzantine bureaucracy, but any renegotiation is now down to democracy, not the lawyers, thank god.“ The Brexit deal takes things back to where they were before Maastricht. The EU is limited now in any meddling to very specific areas indeed. It ends the oddity where because circa seven per cent of UK business trade with the EU, 100 per cent have their laws made by the EU (although that is a bit more blurred in supply chains).In the small print of the deal, the remnants of failed EU attempts to fetter British sovereignty can be seen. Consider the ‘precautionary approach’. This slides in via footnote 49, disguising itself in footnote 52. But by the time it gets in as actual law (article 1.2 page 179) it’s clear that it has lost the battle; its words have no force. British negotiators seem to have seen to that. As long as one side has a plausible scientific argument, it may do as it likes. There are other failed EU power grabs in the text, none carrying force.There are parts of the deal that mean that, should Britain wish to diverge, then UK committees will have to talk to EU committees. Requiring the UK to ‘consult’ on implementation and change of the agreement etc. But how this is done in practice is left free and thus pretty non-enforceable and limited in scope. It is diplomacy now, not law.”

Russell Pearson ● 2130d

The assertion that it is a good analysis in The Spectator should also acknowledge,  in the interests of clarity,  that it is owned by the Barclay brothers who own The Telegraph and (quite lawfully) avoid paying to the UK government by living in the Channel Islands. And of course, the editor was once Boris Johnson. The analysis that it is ‘good’ is subjective and not in line with the vast majority of more independent assessments. No mention is made that this is a worse deal than the one brokered by Theresa May and the one that Boris Johnson resigned over. Quelle surprise!The analysis is that the deal takes us back to his things were ore Maastricht is correct in as much that it sets us back nearly thirty years.

Stewart Jones ● 2130d

At least in thirty years time, the Miserables won't be around to continue moaning and whinging because of moaning and whinging changes nothing. Getting on and making what we have work for all is what matters. Mind you, it only took 5 mins for Oluwole and soubry to go on the attack. That's before knowing anything Need to kick these people off all platforms otherwise we get nowhere. And they don't create or say anything new but create more division over Brexit and they create a bigger left v right-wing bias that results in attacks. Just look at Twitter in the last 4 days. Those prominent could not wait 2 mins before kicking ass.

Julian Pavey ● 2130d

I read the telegraph FOC I can't bring my self to pay for it, I read it for, I choose my words carefully, balance!!!It's a despairing read, as you say, they don't even live in the UK yet wield massive influence over the media and politicians.Here's a much more interesting article from John Harris, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/27/history-britain-ruling-class-created-crisis-boris-johnson-brexit-covidThe EU as most of its most ardent supporters will admit is far from perfect, if only a British government had treated more than a business transaction we could have helped shape it in a positive way rather than fighting it at every turn.With all its drawbacks it would have been infinitely better than the shambles we have now.No point arguing with fools as my old boss used to say only time will reveal the mistake.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2130d

One regulation that the EU imposed was the protection of up to £85000 in a bank. What's wrong with that. When I ask a Brexiteer what's wrong with that they usually reply that they dont know about all the rules. However I notice as the pound has gone down now the protection level should be around £91000. However the BOE agree, but say they will not review it until 2025.

Nicholas Beard ● 2130d

These Guardian squibs are getting ever more hysterical - the faux radicalism of creating a pantomime stage to attack the ruling class, and meanwhile, the grand old proles are nowhere to be seen.

Russell Pearson ● 2130d

Read the FT recently?

Stewart Jones ● 2130d

“ EU and China poised to agree investment pactFormal announcement expected following ‘positive developments’ on labour standards” ?

Russell Pearson ● 2130d

Well yesterday I learnt that BMW are to move production of electric motors for their electric cars out of the UK and are replacing the work with petrol engines. Of course they will cease in 2030 so what does that tell you????

Nicholas Beard ● 2129d

JP > "Getting on and making what we have work for all is what matters."It seems that this did not apply to those who were unhappy with our membership of the EU.

John Whitworth ● 2129d

"JP > "Getting on and making what we have work for all is what matters."It seems that this did not apply to those who were unhappy with our membership of the EU."Or indeed to the EU Commission. Had they taken David Cameron seriously when he tried to re-negotiate areas that were causing concern to the UK, then the referendum would probably have gone the other way.

Richard Greenhough ● 2129d

Given that Ford spent the years of Britain's EU membership moving manufacturing out of the UK, it tells me that the trend to do so has continued.

Richard Greenhough ● 2129d

"BMW will retool its German factories to build electric cars and components and shift manufacturing of combustion engines to plants in Austria and England""BMW’s Munich plant, which currently makes four, six, eight and twelve cylinder combustion engines, will be retooled with a 400 million euro investment until 2026, to make next-generation electric vehicles, the car maker said""BMW said production of eight and twelve cylinder engines will move from Munich to Hams Hall in England, and other engines will be made in Steyr, in Austria"Hams Hall in England BMWs engine plant has never made electric motors. It is now tooled to produce BMWs latest TwinPower Turbo petrol engines.From what i can see,most german and japanese car manufactureres are having to change,upgrade and retool ones home plants to make the change to electric with big investmant. Without home investment they fall behind. Obviously they need to produce new modles, have  sales increase before making further changes and investment in other countries. That starts most likely on a computer upwards to rolling out the door in germany.

Julian Pavey ● 2129d

RG > "Had they taken David Cameron seriously when he tried to re-negotiate areas that were causing concern to the UK..."Were they causing concern to the UK, or were they causing concern to a well-funded, anti-EU fringe with strong media support that was threatening the stability of the Tory party?Was Cameron proposing EU-wide reform or was it an attempt to win even more special treatment and opt-outs on top of the preferential terms already enjoyed by the UK?Will the new TCA make everything better?

John Whitworth ● 2129d

"Was Cameron proposing EU-wide reform.."If the EU Commission had managed to get their heads out of the sand and acknowledged that their push for ever-closer union and one-size-fits-all policies was unpopular with many citizens of their individual member countries, then EU-wide reform might have been possible. Instead we now have countries like Poland and Hungary kicking back against the diktats coming out of Brussels, and if they continue on their present path more will follow. Unless and until EU-wide reform becomes a real possibility, we are better off out.

Richard Greenhough ● 2129d

Is reform possible for them? The Lisbon Treaty:“ 1. Proposal for treaty change can come from any national government, the European Parliament, or the European Commission, and may relate to any aspect of the treaties (including proposals designed to increase Union competence).2. Proposal is addressed to the Council (presumably for early debate on the nature of the proposal), which then submits the proposal to the European Council and notifies national parliaments.3. European Council must consult the European Parliament and the European Commission.4. European Council then votes whether to examine the proposal; a simple majority in favour issufficient to proceed to the next stage.5. Two options are available at this point:a. President of the European Council is automatically mandated to convene a Convention to examine the draft proposal and adopt by consensus a recommendation to a future IGC, butb. European Council may vote by a simple majority, after having obtained the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention – in this case the European Council defines the mandate of the IGC.6. Intergovernmental Conference (IGC) is called by the President of the Council (at this stage the rotating presidency takes over from the European Council, as the intergovernmental conference is the domain of the member states only, not the EU institutions per se).7. Ratification at national level begins; proposal enters into force if it is ratified by all member states according to their own domestic ratification procedures.” http://aei.pitt.edu/15131/1/PB_215_o%27Broin_on_Lisbon.pdf

Russell Pearson ● 2129d

Phew ! I reckon we did well to nail down a trade deal only twelve months after exiting. They've been talking to China about a deal ever since 2014.

Richard Greenhough ● 2129d

"JP > "Getting on and making what we have work for all is what matters."It seems that this did not apply to those who were unhappy with our membership of the EU."'Or indeed to the EU Commission. Had they taken David Cameron seriously when he tried to re-negotiate areas that were causing concern to the UK, then the referendum would probably have gone the other way.'I don't think the extreme right Eurosceptic brigade would EVER have accepted anything - even had it been wrapped in gold leaf - out they wanted at any cost and they were not settling for anything that wasn't us leaving. Cameron only had that ridiculous referendum to try and placate them and keep his job, didn't that work well? This country was just collateral damage to them. Noticeable how many of these entrepreneurs after singing the praises of Brexit and donating to the Tories (and bagging an honour for their generosity) have moved their businesses lock, stock and barrel, to places abroad.

Vanessa Smith ● 2129d

Will be a good question for a school history exam to discuss in 2046.

Russell Pearson ● 2129d

Boris said we will be the centre for electric car production. Also remember he said super fast broadband will sprout up in homes. Still we will be mightily prosperous, he said so.

Nicholas Beard ● 2129d

"I don't think the extreme right Eurosceptic brigade would EVER have accepted anything - even had it been wrapped in gold leaf - out they wanted at any cost and they were not settling for anything that wasn't us leaving. Cameron only had that ridiculous referendum to try and placate them and keep his job, didn't that work well?"Sounds just like the scenario when the extreme left Eurosceptic brigade pushed Harold Wilson into calling a "ridiculous referendum" to try and placate them and keep his job. Unfortunately on that occasion the establishment joined forces to pull the wool over the voter's eyes regarding the direction the "Common Market" was planning to take, and then carefully avoided letting the electorate have another say for over forty years.

Richard Greenhough ● 2129d

He’s facing a revolt on whether to vote for the deal, and now he’s said this:“Of course we would want to improve on it, but we would have to operate to this deal. It is very important that we are in a position to say we go into that election building on this deal.” So will fight 2024 on a rejoin platform? That will go down well in the Red Wall. If he doesn’t he upsets his party. What a conundrum.

Russell Pearson ● 2129d

He's on the proverbial horns of a dilemma. Either way he's damned. If he abstains he'll hand the Tories & the right-wing press an easy stick to beat him with, if he votes for the deal he'll drive Labour leaning people (who are 60%+ pro EU) towards the Lib Dems. It's a very tricky position to triangulate on, personally I've changed my mind on which way would be the best to vote several times, although I'm now very narrowly in favour of him supporting it. People rarely remember that the Tories backed the Iraq War even more heavily than Labour did at the time, Labour, rightly carry the can (for good or ill) there because they were in Government at the time. I can't see any party, except perhaps the Lib Dems campaigning on a rejion platform in 2024, it's too soon & I think the vast majority of the electorate are fed up of all the wrangling, what I can see though is Labour campaigning on closer ties with Europe when the deal that Johnson has signed up for comes up for review/renegotiation in 2025. Because that is one of the more obvious pitfalls of this deal, that far from dealing with the question for a generation, it leaves us, much like Switzerland in a perpetual state of negotiation with the EU. It's what people voted for, apparently.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2129d

Well we could be and i say could if someone wants to set up from scratch and invest. That is a hard one given our past but times have changed. Maybe someone should give it a go 8 of the 11 formul one teams are based in the uk "The industry that sarounds the f1 teams in the uk continues to grow, with companies in Motorsport Valley producing an estimated turnover of £6bn, of which £3.6bn is exported" "Now almost 3,500 companies associated with motorsport are based in Motorsport Valley, employing around 40,000 people" Nothing is doom and gloom unless you dont know anything and just think its all rotten. As to super fast broadband. 95% of the uk is connected and those who are without are gradually being connected. If you dont have fast broadband its becasue either you dont want to pay for it or your setup is inadequate

Julian Pavey ● 2129d

I very much agree, Huw, that Starmer is in an impossible position and I too have wavered over how he should act.  That's a very interesting point about how it is Tony Blair and Labour who get all the stick about Iraq regardless of the Tory support at the time.  Perhaps it will be the same now though you can guarantee that many Brexiters will just blame the E.U. and Remainers for anything that goes wrong.  We just didn't 'get behind it' enough!

Alastair Banton ● 2129d

By the time of the next election it should be clearer what works, what doesn’t and what makes people unhappy. As Labour’s Brexit man, Starmer must have a fair idea what could be re-negotiated and campaign on those areas.  If Boris is still around the ERG might continue to lean on him.

Vivienne Cox ● 2129d

Lots of 'em being bandied about on this thread..Not sure whether the '60% of those leaning toward Labour' are that enamoured with the EU.Traditional Labour seats fell like ninepins at the last election, which is hardly a sign that those voters trusted them to carry brexit through.Perhaps inside the M25 that percentage is true, and therein lies one of Starmer's many dilemmas imo.

Keith Iddon ● 2129d

Ridiculous.

Basil Finnis ● 2129d

Yep, brexit awful for you UK manufacturing, a slow death as companies look for stability not divergence and it doesn't even cover services.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2129d

A well thought through contribution from Dick, so what were Nissan, Honda and Toyota doing over the same period?

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2129d

Support amongst Leave voters is very poor according to YouGovhttps://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/keir-starmer-approval-rating?crossBreak=ivotedtoleave

Russell Pearson ● 2129d

This one looks obvious to me, the right thing to do is the right thing to do. Is this a deal we would have negotiated?As you say people will forget but history wont.Key is it doesn't effect the outcome, it's not as if no deal is now the alternative.I agree with rejoining the EU, bearing in mind time is on the pro EU side with younger voters pro EU and older against support should grow.That said formally rejoining will be replaced by an inevitable realignment closer to the EU over time as proximity gravity does its work.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2129d

If the Tories want any chance of keeping Scotland in the union they will bin Johnson, he's completely toxic up there and they have already done brexit.I give him 6 months.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2129d

A challenge if you have a conscience. I find it hugely more concerning that we have a PM who resigned from the cabinet over a deal that he could not approve of but is now championing a deal that is significantly worse.

Stewart Jones ● 2129d

Political suicide for starmer to not vote with the government, those that voted out have no clue! The deal will go through that’s my prediction the last thing the country needs right know is more Brexit crap.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2129d

"The deal will go through that’s my prediction"..bleedin' eck it's Mystic Meg on the cocktails...x

Stuart Kerr ● 2129d

Crystal Balls, the ERG have said they will back it. But what will Starmer do?

Russell Pearson ● 2129d

Stuart 😘 the deal will go through 👏👏👏

Jayne Thorburn ● 2129d