Forum Topic

TGT- CHR  20 min observation

Just my observation of 20 mins on the corner Firstly 7 cars and one pickup had to take quick decisive action turning right out of TGT and not entering the cycle lane. One car naturally took a wide turn at pace and took quick action to turn back in. Unfortunately, nothing serious happened as the motorbike that was originally behind ended beside the car and nearly take out. The conclusion is this. Only a matter of time before something happens and I don't give it long. The turn is naturally wide but the start of the cycle lane is set to far forward for correction Secondly, is the cycle lane going east to the west outside Barclays bank. They have the wands in place to mark the cycle lane from the lights pretty much up to the corner of Annandale avenue. This gives cyclists who ignore the red outside Barclays to carry on thinking they are safe because of the wands giving the impression the cycle lane continues. Unfortunately, one car coming down Annandale avenue at a legal pace because the road was clear so at a pace and crossing into TGT on a green missed a cyclist who had not stopped on the red going east to west. The conclusion is while the cyclist or cyclists must stop on red and i say that because many did not stop on red but majority did just in case one gets all touchy the continuation of the wands gives cyclists who don't stop a false sense of safety and traffic coming out of Annandale avenue are waiting for them. The wands past the lights up to Annandale avenue need to be removed. Thirdly I noticed the green man outside snappy snaps going south to north and visa versa are not counting down and the time to cross seems to have gone down slightly. Some pedestrian seems to be caught out more than before The total conclusion is TGT, CHR and Annandale avenue will have accidents in time, it is just a case of when

Julian Pavey ● 2136d112 Comments

"Unfortunately, nothing serious happened"Sorry folksThat should be fortunately but Unfortunately may well be used at some point in time

Julian Pavey ● 2136d

I was walking down the High Road this morning at about 8.10am on my way to the big Sainsburys and noticed a few using the cycle lane - majority not and a few cyclist on the pavement still. At one point i crossed on a zebra crossing and two cyclist, using the new lane, both looking like commuter cyclists were going so fast that they had to jam their breaks on and nearly skidded as i tried to cross - they had not anticipated I might possibly cross (and before anyone says anything, I didn't jump out on them and rush onto the zebra), so just a warning - that some are using this at speed. Also spotted a poor chap who was in traffic heading west - in a car. A double decker was in front of him and he/she turned left by Metro Bank. He started to turn very slowly, but a cyclist, going very fast in the cycle lane going East and  obscured from view by the double decker - hence edging into the cycle to turn, had to swerve to save being hit. However, the driver wasn't doing anything rash at all, the cyclist probably going a bit too fast, and it could have ended badly with neither really at fault but just a badly designed cycle lane where being stuck behind a bus completely obscures your view. The Annandale Road section too - is a bit dodgy as I saw a cyclist jump the red light on the cycle lane and nearly get bashed by a car coming out of Annandale, like you say - as the wands sort of make it feel you are safe...

J Morse ● 2136d

YepIts the continuation of the wands past the lights that is the problem.Ive said it already,im totally in no doubt that someone is going to be taken out very soon be it one or both issues be that car,cyclist,motorbike or pedestrain on each other. Take your ipick

Julian Pavey ● 2136d

It is interesting you mention speed J Morse.I took a ride along it this morning obeying all the cycle traffic lights. What I noticed is the length of time you are held at stop along the various junctions. It seem to take noticeable longer the get from one end of the High Road to the other compared to the time it used to take me.I think the commuter/racing bike rider will be frustrated by this and will prefer to use the road or jump the lights. Overall I did not find it particularly safer in fact I felt I had to take even more care a junctions than I did before the lane opened.

Adrian Irving ● 2136d

I hope everyone is feeding back to the Council.  I think if and when an accident does happen, hopefully not fatal, they need to not be able to deny responsibility.  I personally feel that Chiswick has been destroyed and that is unforgiveable as none of it feels like an improvement, but dangerous is a whole other ball game.

Maggie Dodge ● 2136d

But whatever form of transport one will blame the other for it but of course in this instance people have been noified and pre warned in advance reguardless of blame

Julian Pavey ● 2136d

Julian the message is loud and clear, it’s dangerous for everyone will the council & TFL listen, put their hands up and admit it was wrong to place the cycle lane on Chiswick High Road, I doubt it......let’s all keep the pressure up and pray no one is fatally injured in the meantime.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2136d

Saw a car turn straight into cycle lane this afternoon turning left out of Dukes Road. Also saw gentleman cycling/pushing a prone passenger in a contraption in front of him - he completely ignored the red cycle light at the corner of CHR and Dukes' Avenue and crossed towards the Church whilst cars were turning left.  I would not have been happy being his passenger at head height with car bonnets. The whole scheme seems very complicated and you need your wits about you whether you are on foot, 2 wheels or 4. I really hope that there are no incidents but having witnessed these 2 problems as well as the issues an ambulance was having in the space of 15 minutes, CHR does not look like either a safe or enjoyable place to be.

Cecile Parfitt ● 2136d

While the normal mix of motor vehicles, cyclists and pedestrians presents some inherent risks, we are at least familiar with them. This new scheme, rather than remove these risks, could well be introducing a whole series of new and unfamiliar ones, more dangerous than before.Any eye witness accounts yet of how the 'two-stage left turn' into TGT is being negotiated, or the eastbound 'dotted diagonal of doom' at the junction with Heathfield Terrace?

Peter Evans ● 2136d

As I came out of Waitrose this morning at 7.30 stopped to cross CHR the pedestrian lights were on green and started to cross  suddenly 2 lycra clad cyclists appeared and clearly had no intention of stopping  thankfully  a man behind me grabbed hold of the hood on my jacket and pulled me back.Why on earth weren't these cyclists obeying the specially installed cycle lights ? Having reached the south side of CHR I was amazed to see more cyclists were using the pavement than the bi-directional C9 - why ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2136d

It is all a complete dogs breakfast Loraine, with no disrespect to FiFi and Barny. "Hounslow Highways" and their so called engineers should be sacked forthwith.

Steven Trembath ● 2136d

"Why on earth weren't these cyclists obeying the specially installed cycle lights?"To be charitable, it could be because they didn't notice or realise that the cycle lights were still on red while the main traffic flow alongside was on green.  Or maybe did they did notice and thought the delay was so ridiculous that something must be wrong with the lights.  Or maybe...

Peter Evans ● 2136d

If they didn't notice or thought the delay, designed by experts, were on red they shouldn't be allowed on any roads or anywhere else for that matter !

Loraine Pemberton ● 2136d

Then the same must go for southbound drivers turning right out of TGT who don't notice the cycle lane and end up driving down it.

Ken Munn ● 2136d

I think I saw that cycle today but both people were pedalling.

Philippa Bond ● 2136d

Having cycled the length from Acton Lane to Stamford Brook today it is very dangerous with cars crossing into Airedale and Netheravon Road crossing over the cycle lane without stopping and very nearly running me over, had i not stopped as they did not! It Needs more protection for cyclists and warnings for drivers to alert them to the two way cycle lane, as it is not easy for them to see or avoid collisions.

Mark Richards ● 2136d

Govt needs to have a See & Be Seen - Look Twice - Think Bike etc and advertise changes to the Highway Code which give priority to vulnerable users of the roads eg pedestrians and cyclists.

Philippa Bond ● 2136d

So really we seem to be worse off than before the changes? Whose benefitting?  Jeremy Vine tweeting that anyone who says cyclists jump red lights are lying and showing a cyclist stopped at a red light which he thinks proves his point. This has created a real battle between drivers and cyclists.

Maggie Dodge ● 2136d

"It Needs more protection for cyclists and warnings for drivers to alert them to the two way cycle lane," Mark,I agree with you but remember drivers don't want to be involved in a collision either.Do you have any suggestions as to how all road users can have more protection at the junctions you have highlighted?

Adrian Irving ● 2135d

Think you miss the point KenDrivers are not going into the cycle lane,they are having to take late action to not go into the cycle lane. Its a wide sweeping turn and as your straightening up its upon you. If your turning thinking your road as normal is on the left along the pavement,but ofcourse its now a cycle lane.

Julian Pavey ● 2135d

I witnessed exactly that last night Ken. A black Jeep coming out of TGT misjudged the turn and ended up driving west down the cycle lane, hanging a left up Devonshire to escape. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Steven Trembath ● 2135d

Surely this highlights how unsuitable the cycle lane is on the HIgh Road, we all managed much better before, everyone was safer, this is an absolute disaster at a time when we can ill afford these crazy vanity projects. The only sensible answer is to remove the cycle lane there are too many residential streets of the high road. Even cyclists prefer to use the road that says it all, no one is happy. Happy Christmas

Jayne Thorburn ● 2135d

I think it shows why there is a push to put self-driving cars on the road.

Philippa Bond ● 2135d

No it doesn't.

Adrian Irving ● 2135d

Had a good opportunity to watch the junction this morning whilst queueing for Mackens - seen 3 cars go down the cycle lane, many instances of car and van drivers taking last minute evasive action to avoid going down the cycle lane, one cyclist narrowly avoiding being hit by a car coming out of Annadale Rd and another nearly being hit whilst trying to figure out how to turn from eastbound cycle lane into TGT.It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Simon Tranter ● 2135d

Philippa it might interest you to know Uber sold off its self-driving research lab at a bargain basement price. Seems the research wasn't yielding the results and the technology simply couldn't anticipate that little thing called human behavior.

David Lesniak ● 2135d

Also been for another wander down the High Road and this is such a dogs dinner of a mess. Witnessed two cyclists ignoring the red signal for them going West and within an inch, nearly get taken out by two cars in quick succession, also same issue with cars trying to turn into the cycle lane as the turns are now quite tight. Stood at the Chiswick Lane junction and watched a car turning left to head West into the High Road and nearly ended up in the cycle lane too. And don't get me started on the horns honking - I have no idea what is going on around Netheravon/Airedale and Homefield but I am hearing near constant honking. It might be - as i witnessed on my way back home today that buses stop at the new island outside Prebend Gardens with their hazards on - probably waiting for driver change, and hence buses and traffic behind them then try and get around them - to then find that they are in the opposite lane now travelling West and everybody gets stuck as the cars trying go to West just can't get through. The sooner this is reversed the better - it is just frightening to watch.

J Morse ● 2135d

...this is a half-cock solution because, being temporary, it can't have permanent infrastructure. If it did, there would be 'kerbs' separating the motor road from the cycleway - much more difficult for even the doziest drivers to ignore - and raised tables at junctions - ditto.Roll on the real thing.

Ken Munn ● 2135d

What is the record for seeing cars in the cycle lane. In one walk along the High Road, I have just seen 5. Admittedly one of those occasions was a convoy of 3. Another tried to turn left out of Annadale Road into it but then had second thoughts. In their defence, that car was faced with two lanes of cars waiting at the traffic lights travelling east. There were cars there indicating to turn left in the inside lane, and then cars had formed a second line outside them, filling most of the road, which I presume is not what is intended. As a civil engineer I find it difficult to imagine that this scheme has been designed by fellow engineers.

Alan Green ● 2135d

Should you be concerned about the traffic issues in our lovely borough, finally HOUNSLOW COUNCIL are ASKING FOR YOUR OPINIONS but you must do this almost immediately after NEW YEAR.  The Council has organised a series of engagement meetings online, the link is given below, on the many road changes made so far including the South Chiswick Liveable Neighbourhood scheme in Grove Park.  (Not included are the many additional schemes for further LTN's to come)  It’s important that as many opposing voices as possible are heard to challenge Hounslow Council's view that these schemes are well supported.  WE NEED TO RAISE THE DIFFICULTIES THEY HAVE CAUSED. There are four events, allocated by area, anyone can attend.  They are online, book via Eventbrite using the link below. Hounslow Council wants people to submit questions in advance though they can also be asked during the sessions.  More details via the link. https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/news/article/2236/hounslow_moves_ahead_with_next_round_of_phases_1_and_2_streetspace_engagementThe dates are:•    7pm on Thursday, 7th January: BUSINESSES  boroughwide•    7pm on Friday, 8th January: North Chiswick (LBH language for north of the A4 - including C9 in Chiswick and Brentford & the road closures in the centre of Chiswick)•    7pm on MONDAY, 11th JANUARY: South Chiswick (LBH LANGUAGE FOR SOUTH OF THE A4 - incl. Hartington Rd)•    7pm on Tuesday, 12th January: IsleworthPlease circulate this widely to friends, family and neighbourhood groups. It is vital that the other side of the argument regarding the borough’s traffic is heard.Hounslow Council say they WANT TO HEAR FROM US - NOW IS THE TIME TO SPEAK UP, it's our last chance!They have more LTN's planned for us here in W4 too.  So get your voices out there now before they start on the next tranche of misery.

Jennifer Selig ● 2135d

I think traffic turning right and into the cycle lane is confused by the illuminated bollard on the dividing kerb between the 'road' and the cycle lane, which they naturally assume they should keep left of. Not so.

Peter Evans ● 2135d

Just come down TGT They are painting a white line accross Annandale road to link up the cycle lane from each corner. They have allso put in from what i can see about 6 white cycles within the lines. I guess its to tell cars in anandale road its a cycle lane and the hope i guess is those turning right out of TGT now notice the white contineuos line with cycles painted within. We will have to wait and see. Oh yes,car came down the cycle lane after turning left from chiswick lane an then came out into car lane at Cranbrook road. A wand seems to be missing on that stretch

Julian Pavey ● 2135d

Can’t wait until they realise it was a stupid idea and put everything back to the way it was. Let’s not wait for that first fatality.

Maggie Dodge ● 2135d

More signs, more wands, more clutter, more confusion. Scrap the lot and let's have a good old strip of asphalt with a white line down the middle.

Steven Trembath ● 2134d

Well Steven I like that idea, might just work but it’s a bit complicated 🤔

Maggie Dodge ● 2134d

The white line is optional !

Steven Trembath ● 2134d

@ David  It doesn't surprise me.  The easy life for everyone is a bit of a dream.  https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/18/21445168/tesla-driver-sleeping-police-charged-canada-autopilot

Philippa Bond ● 2134d

https://www.bikeworks.org.uk/pages/category/what-is-all-ability

Philippa Bond ● 2134d

I think we are going to need to have a lot more speed cameras as there are a lot of cars and vans exceeding speed limits.

Philippa Bond ● 2134d

https://wheelsforwellbeing.org.uk/types-of-cycles/not that you can expect all of these types on the road but there are a wide variety and cycles can be customised for cyclists who may not otherwise be able to cycle.

Philippa Bond ● 2134d

Job done 👍Happy Christmas

Maggie Dodge ● 2134d

My FIL and his childhood friends used to run out to the street and guess what sort of car was coming (there were only about two brands) and they were so infrequent.  My husband said he used to do the same when he was a child.Yet we treat them as if we have never been without them when they really have not been around all that long. There is so often the inference that if we can't get somewhere by car that we can't actually get there at all when for the majority that really is not the case.Just look at the increase in youth unemployment now.  The Minimum Wage is tiered and youngsters can be earning less than £5 per hour - difficult to be able to buy and run a car on that - that's why the younger ones I knew looking after FIL were cycling.  They should also have been paid for travel in between their clients but their timetables were overloaded so nobody got the right amount of time and they were paid even less.  Elderly care is still a national scandal - it needs the long awaited cross party solutions that have long been promised. 

Philippa Bond ● 2133d

Listened to David Attenborough on R4 this morning.  Inspirational stuff and thoughts on tough decisions we all have to make if we're to survive.  Across the globe..UK cities and towns could halve the number of cars owned for starters..Car ownership might well become primarily for country people, the clinically weak and the disabled ..(running for cover to tend a goose...)

Stuart Kerr ● 2133d

Perhaps it is more appropriate to be more honest and straight forward:Car ownership should become primarily for the rich. As it used to be some 40 years ago.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2133d

You didn't have to be rich to have a car some 40 years ago, maybe it was different before the oil crises of the 70's but that was before my time. I do agree that the affordability of running a private vehicle started off low, and vehicles became more and more affordable as time went on, and in recent years the trend has been in the opposite direction (insurance costs especially for young drivers, more recently the price premium on electric vehicles).Did you mean to say 'should' by the way, or was it more of a prediction. I don't think the rich 'should' have a greater right or privilege but I know it's normally inevitable.

Andrew Jones ● 2132d

"Car ownership should become primarily for the rich"Given the combination of increasing pressure from virtue-signallers like Sadiq Khan to ban petrol-driven vehicles  and the exorbitant cost of electric cars, this is precisely what is happening. Instead of that sanctimonious 'To the mayor and TfL, every journey matters', he could put it much more succinctly by making his slogan: 'Roads for the rich'.

Colin Jordan ● 2132d

'Roads for the rich' – and cyclists.

Ken Munn ● 2132d

As if further proof were needed, Ken prides himself on being part of the elite cycling minority.Mass transit be damned.

David Lesniak ● 2132d

There is still an environmental cost to electric cars though ... just because they aren't belching out CO2 and NOx and particulates, it doesn't mean that replacing every vehicle with an electric vehicle on a 1 for 1 basis is the solution to our woes.And is the 'exorbitant' cost down to profiteering, or manufacturing costs (or both and other factors as well)?

Andrew Jones ● 2132d

There is still an environmental cost to electric cars though ... just because they aren't belching out CO2 and NOx and particulates, it doesn't mean that replacing every vehicle with an electric vehicle on a 1 for 1 basis is the solution to our woes.And is the 'exorbitant' cost down to profiteering, or manufacturing costs (or both and other factors as well)?

Andrew Jones ● 2132d

As I learnt earlier from this forum, electic cars issue more particulates than petrol and diesel cars because of greater break and tyre wear. The engine block for an electric car is apparently twice as heavy as that for a conventional motor. It makes zero sense to tout them as a solution for air pollution.

Mark Evans ● 2132d

It is certainly true that a typical EV uses its tyres a little more than an equivalent ICE car for the simple reason that the EV tends to be heavier.  A good example would be the recent Fiat 500e (great city car) which weighs about 1350 kg compared to the petrol 500 which weighs around 950 kg depending on options.However the brake dust argument is wrong... at least for EVs which have regen braking which is virtually all of them. There are many models which have reported brake pad life expectancy of between 5x and 10x the equivalent in an ICE car.  It is entirely possible that normal brakes will cease to exist on an EV in the next 10 years which will help bring the weight of EVs down and reduce tyre wear!

Justin Stephenson ● 2132d

If we are talking braking dust we should look at trains and tube. That's where a lot of braking dust is coming from.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2132d

..and then there's all the skin fragments shed by passing pedestrians and the rubber dust from the soles of their shoes, and the energy consumed by producing food for us to eat, and... So we'd better stop and eating and moving and maybe breathing while we're about it, if we really want to save the planet!Meanwhile, back at the cycle lanes..

Peter Evans ● 2132d

Think the way forward is E.Vs, smaller lighter models as closing roads just moves the problem elsewhere. Would have been better to have had a good scrappage scheme going to encourage a change to electric and things could have been better by now.

Janice Evans ● 2131d

They will be self charging eventually so fewer batteries would be required,The car is not going away.

Janice Evans ● 2131d

Except, Janice, that there are very few smaller lighter electric cars. Most are medium/big and start from £30+K. That's one reason e-bikes and scooters are taking off. Personally, though, I've always fancied a Renault Twizy.https://www.renault.co.uk/electric-vehicles/twizy.html

Ken Munn ● 2131d

That's why a good scrappage scheme is required, they are to expensive for me, although my car is Eco obviously not as good as an electric model,

Janice Evans ● 2131d

Go for a Twizy then, Ken.I believe the monthly cost of leasing the batteries is about £79pcm

Jeffrey Cope ● 2131d

I agree with you on pricing but there are plenty of EV models which are small or small/medium car than medium/big.  Maybe not as small as the Twizy but you could have the Zoe e, Fiat 500e, Corsa e, Peugeot 208e, VW Up and the seriously cute Honda E (the Mini e is definitely more medium than small in car terms), I am sure there are more but how many models do you need to look atRange with the small EVs is an issue if you do any distances on motorways but as an urban runabout they are all pretty good.  If I was buying now i would probably pick the 500e or the Zoe e although the Twizy does look a lot of fun if somewhat impractical

Justin Stephenson ● 2130d

I take the point about electric vehicles' braking systems perhaps producing less particulates but this will be more than cancelled out by tyre wear. Given engine block weight it takes about 15,000 miles for a new tyre to need replacement less than half that for a conventional care. This represents the erosion of the tyre into tiny particles which enter the atmosphere.An electric car will therefore have higher particulate emissions than a petrol or diesel car. Older diesels will have a higher level of NOx emissions but the health impacts of this remain unclear as roadside it will always be accompanied by particulates. However, if you have a gas hob in your kitchen you are likely to be experiencing higher levels of NOx in your home than you would be by the busiest road in London.The value of the switch to electric will be a reduction in fossil fuel use and a reduction in CO2 not an improvement in air quality. If CO2 reduction is the priority this does beg the question why punitive measures are being introduced against diesel cars. Previously we were being incentivised to buy them to reduce fossil fuel use.

Mark Evans ● 2130d

Out of interest just priced a Zoe (small 5 door hatchback). £32K inc a sweetener from the government.A Clio (roughly same size, roughly to the same spec). £21K. And 78.5 mpg, apparently.Hmmm.

Ken Munn ● 2130d

Citreon have made something similar to the bubble car but no price shownAs yet.

Janice Evans ● 2130d

Crikey, who has the money to pay those kinds of prices now?  Bankers, council leaders, head teachers, those employed on HS2, lawyers, top NHS administrators,  MPs, top government employees and maybe a few other categories or those with a big inheritance maybe?  Certainly not the regular man or woman in the street.

Claire Moran ● 2130d

Changing the subject (as you do, Ken) I forgot to mention that the Twizy you mentioned comes without side doors, if you're interested in buying one!

Jeffrey Cope ● 2130d

This complaint about EVs is overstated usually by people who actually want to ban car ownership completely - they have moved away from concentrating about exhaust gasses (because EVs have none), then it is tyre and brake particulates.  Now that the brake particulate argument has proven to be rubbish they are now concentrating on tyre particulates.The reality is that because an EV is 20-30% heavier than the equivalent ICE car it will use up its tyres at 20-30% faster (not double) if driven in a sensible manner.  This is almost exactly what happens in the Tesla 3 whose tyres should last 25,000 miles compared to an equivalent ICE where you should get 30,000 miles from a set of tyres.There are many stories of EVs chewing through tyres a lot faster but this is always due to bad driving.  EVs tend to have a lot more acceleration than equivalent ICE cars so if you drive as though you are at a drag race you will struggle to get 15,000 miles out of the tyres.When you look at the totality of particulates and emissions it is obvious that EVs are massively better for the environment and health than ICE cars.  And that is before you consider what of the most forgotten about benefit of EVs - they are far quieter.  In a big city that has the potential to transform the lives of the 1000s of people who live close to main roads

Justin Stephenson ● 2130d

Ken: I completely agree that the price of EVs is too much.  There are many reports to the effect that the running/maintenance costs of an EV during the normal ownership period is about £8-10k less than an equivalent ICE car.  The fact that EVs are currently priced at £8-10k more than the equivalent ICE is highly suspicious.The Zoe and indeed most EVs need to be £6-8k cheaper, maybe they will be in the next few years

Justin Stephenson ● 2130d

Crikey! £1000 is my top price.

Vivienne Cox ● 2130d

Justin, I think the sources I have used were reasonably balanced and without an agenda.Whatever the tyre life of an electric vehicle actually is, everyone is in agreement that it is significantly lower. The extra erosion of tyres will mean extra particulates so I can't see how it can be concluded other than electric vehicles will be responsible for more particulates in the air than a modern diesel or petrol car. They issue virtually none through exhaust fumes and will issue fewer through tyre wear.That EVs won't improve air quality is not a killer arguments against them. The bigger picture is that we need to reduce dependence on fossil fuels and a switch to EVs globally will be a major step forward in this regard. My point is that we should avoid introducing regressive tax measures and arbitrary fines to encourage EV take up. They are more expensive vehicles and punishing the less well off for not owning one isn't a route we should be taking.I take your point on noise. However, some caution is needed on this as well as quiet vehicles may prove to be more dangerous. If accidents increase as EV adoption rises engine noise may need to be added as a safety feature.

Mark Evans ● 2129d

Suspect that whilst most people would switch to EV's,  myself included, currently the purchase price is just too expensive.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2129d

The demand for second hand will be big when they’re a bit older. I don’t know many people in my circle of friends who have ever bought a brand new car of any description.  Is it true you can push an electric car. What happens if you run out of power in the middle of traffic, genuine question.

Maggie Dodge ● 2129d

The demand for second hand will be big when they’re a bit older" What about the cost of replacing a battery. The batteries so far work like a normal battery. As soon as you start charging them they start to lose power at the top in small increments and as you pile on the miles so the battery declines. I would expect to see big numbers in second-hand cars needing a battery replacement. So while the car maybe cheap, your most likely have to take into account the cost of a new battery.Would you want to by a car that has done some good mileage trusting the battery or even by a second-hand car knowing your need to pay out for a new battery? Will sellers have to replace before selliing to make a sale or will buyers bypass cars with high milege knowing power will be lower and will need a change at some point sooner than later. Will we see some dodgy workarounds in the second hand marketBe interesting how that all pans out in the second-hand market when it becomes more popular They say you should not quick charge battery to 100% and certainly not every day.

Julian Pavey ● 2129d

This is what can happen Maggie if you run out of charge - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7755753/Chaos-California-Tesla-drivers-stranded-hours-half-mile-long-line-charge.html Not quite as quick as putting in petrol

J Morse ● 2129d

Would like to see more that can be plug in at home.

Janice Evans ● 2129d

Almost all can be plugged in at home using an ordinary domestic socket but they will take ages to recharge.

Ken Munn ● 2129d

Getting them through the front door is the difficult bit ...

Carl Wynne ● 2129d

Fancy all having Thanksgiving celebrations at the same time.What about this new one that should suit Californians even better than us:https://electrek.co/2020/12/07/aptera-super-efficient-electric-car-1000-miles-range-solar-power/

Philippa Bond ● 2129d

Thanks Carl.  Best laugh of the day.  Even the petrol companies are now seriously putting in charging points.https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/07/uk-first-all-electric-car-charging-forecourt-opens-in-essexhttps://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/how-shell-reinventing-fuel-station-evs Many companies are already using electric vehicles.  All those Uber Toyota Priuses that for years we've seen looking as though they were silently kerb crawling were actually waiting for their next call to pick someone up.https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/There have been grants available to put in your own car charging point and for businesses to put them in.There are second hand evs on the market but you need to be aware that the batteries decline.  That is presumably why there are car companies who rent you the battery. This also means that they are in proper control of battery disposal.

Philippa Bond ● 2129d

"As soon as you start charging them they start to lose power at the top in small increments and as you pile on the miles so the battery declines"With the exception of the Nissan Leaf, this is a complete myth.  For the current generation of EVs such as the Tesla Model 3 or Hyundai Kona the battery is good for at least 250,000 miles at which point the battery will still be good for at least 75% of its original capacity.  It is expected that battery life will only get longer with Tesla predicting a 1 million mile battery.As on average UK drivers do 10,000 miles a year this means the current EVs have batteries which will last 25+ years.  On that basis the battery will be one of the last parts of the car that will fail due to age!

Justin Stephenson ● 2129d

Justin is wrong in his assertions. On average an EV will lose 20% capacity in 3 years. For something like a Tesla this will be about 60 miles in range.Replacement battery costs for a Prius (when needed) are currently about £8000-£10,000 for a full set. Given that a lot of hire cars (Prius's) are about 10 years old now and coming up for battery replacement anyone considering a second-hand Prius should be careful.The old batteries which have a reduced capacity can be used for other uses and have some resale value.Lithium (used in Lithium-Ion batteries) is extremely expensive and difficult to recycle currently, so not the panacea that some believe.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2129d

I note the reply to my query about electric cars running out of power but I’m wondering about running out of battery power in the middle of the road, not in a queue at a garage. Also I’ve asked in various places but nobody answers, is it correct that you can’t push an electric car, e.g out of the way if out of power. I heard it damages them to push them but no idea what the truth is.

Maggie Dodge ● 2129d

https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/new-and-used-cars/article/electric-car-charging-guide/how-to-charge-an-electric-car-a9r4I1f0PlaI

Philippa Bond ● 2129d

From what I can make out on Google you have to call breakdown service and have it taken away on a flatbed.  Maybe they should have a reserve battery for an emergency.

Janice Evans ● 2129d

Some of the Toyota Prius are dual fuel so you have the option of using petrol engine in an emergency.

Janice Evans ● 2129d

The following account sounds quite credible ...https://leasing.com/car-leasing-news/what-happens-when-you-run-out-of-battery-in-electric-car/Reading it it seems to suggest that you can still push the car forward (though if the front wheels are turned you don't have any power assisted steering to straighten them)It also seems to suggest that you really have to ignore lots of warning signs (including the car slowing down a lot) to run out of power (unlike a petrol car where it dies pretty quickly when you exhaust the fuel).What you won't be able to do is push start it to get it going (which you can with a manual petrol car that has a working but flat battery)

Andrew Jones ● 2129d

Maggie, you should not push start or tow an EV which has run out of electricity as it can damage the motors, as some other have pointed out. It must be towed away.Ken Munn has also pointed out that some can be recharged from a standard 13 Amp power point. Correct. However, with the exception of the smallest capacity batteries (used on the smallest cars) an 80% charge can take upwards of 13 hours to achieve.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2129d

Tesla's can achieve quicker recharges but require specialised power points.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2129d

https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/europe/features/power-cut-what-happens-when-evs-break-down?Break-down companies are learning how to best support drivers who break down.  Different cars seem to have different solutions.  Not so much to go wrong but drivers don't understand how things work.

Philippa Bond ● 2129d

Why in Britain are we so intent on buying our own of everything?You can join a car club and try out EVs without having the hassle of buying one and having the continuous responsibility for one..You can also find leasing options:https://www.octopusev.com/join-the-conversation

Philippa Bond ● 2129d

And not having the time you want to rent the car out or not being available for the time and hours you want. Why have that hassle when its on your doorstep in an instance

Julian Pavey ● 2129d

Thanks for the info. Cost aside,  I don’t thinkI’m getting one any time soon. I was in South Ealing when an EV ran out of charge half way across the road. It caused an almighty traffic jam  I realise now why it was such an issue and I think it’s for the next generation in my case. I speak only for myself before anyone wades in

Maggie Dodge ● 2129d

In my very limited experience of EV's you'd have to be as dumb as toast to allow one to run out of charge. All sorts of bells and whistles to tell you how much charge is left, to warn you to recharge soonest and to direct you to the nearest recharge point.

Ken Munn ● 2128d

Exactly. I was (and probably still am) a member of a car club. It is inconvenient and expensive. I could never get a car where and when I needed unless I booked it well in advance. In which case getting a car from traditional car rental is much cheaper.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2128d

My son just cancelled his membership as he could never get a car most of the time when he needed one that is unless you book well in advance. Its not cheap if your using it for a long period but good if you need a car for a reason and need it for 2 hours. That is except my son hired a car needing two hours only to overun and get a penalty charge because on that occasion the traffic was not moving and his two hours which was just over an hour on a normal day did not allow him to extend to 3 hours. He appologised to the person waiting for the car and was on the phone to the car club when he arrived back with the car. He is saving to by a car

Julian Pavey ● 2128d

Nothing beats having the convenience of a car

Jayne Thorburn ● 2128d

Jayne - stop it! I copied Julian and spent about 20 minutes observing how the cycleway worked between Heathfield Terrace and Turnham Green Terrace. Overall I thought it seemed to function reasonably well.I didn't see any vehicles entering the cycleway after turning out of TGT so perhaps the signage has been improved here. The entrance point may have have been narrowed which makes it clearer it is not for motor vehicles but precludes emergency service vehicles using it from this point.The Annandale Road junction is a bit of a mess but, as has already been noted, not many cyclists are likely to turn up Turnham Green Terrace.The cycleway was lightly used while I was there but it is a very quiet time of year and around a dozen cyclist passed by. I saw about a third of them ignore red light phases but as there were no pedestrians crossing they were doing so primarily at their own risk. This would have been elevated near the Annandale Road junction where most cyclists seem to regard the light phases as advisory but cars will tend to accelerate quickly when their phases is green because most are aware how short that phase is.The only bit of cycling that I saw that was potentially dangerous to others was when a cyclist didn't give way to people getting off a bus and trying to leave the bus island. That same cyclist probably would have ploughed on through a zebra crossing under the old configuration so I don't think the cycleway can be blamed for his idiocy.Overall I think this section is a qualified success under the circumstances I saw it. Traffic was flowing reasonably well and most cyclists were using the cycleway rather than staying with the main lanes. There are flaws particularly in the way it is difficult to access safely for people living in the north of Chiswick. I also didn't get as far as the Goldhawk Road junction which looks a mess and I remain concerned about the safety of a bi-directional route between Chiswick Lane and King Street with all the emerging streets.It doesn't need to be pointed out to me that I was making these observations on what will have been one of the lowest traffic volume days of the year. If the traffic was always like this, I would say on balance the cycleway between Heathfield Terrace and Turnham Green Terrace is a good thing. We should wait until Tier 4 lockdown ends to make any categorical statements about the impact of the cycleway in terms of the amount of congestion it causes. Personally, like most people I am pessimistic but let's give it a chance.

Paul Corcoran ● 2128d

The Nissan Leaf comes with a spare 12v battery which can be jump start by another petrol vehicle, cannot be jump start by another E.V

Janice Evans ● 2128d

Paul, difficult to assess during a lock down as you said, any changes take a while to adjust to and it then becomes the norm, think when back to normal and more outside traffic coming through will give a better idea on how safe etc., it is.

Janice Evans ● 2128d

I think the quick reaction to here or in general that they turned up near midnight to put a white line accross  Annandale avenue connecting the cycle lane seems to have given cars turning right out of TGT some guidance,but ive not sat down to see if that is the case. However the line could give cyclists more security and given the green on Annandale avenue is short,cars and cyclists must obey red lights otherwise we will have car on cyclist incidents. The lights for cyclists are set back so you cant move forward to the corner and read traffic becasue cars to spped up at times and go through changing green to amber. Basically cars must not jump red and cyclists must stop on red where the actual signal is. The gap between lights and side road in this instance is enough to remove any car jumping a changing amber and the changing of the bycycle lights and gap between the two. You jump red be it car or bycycle and the outome is on you.

Julian Pavey ● 2128d

I would like to see the evidence on your assertion because it is simply not backed by the evidence from the US or indeed from car manufacturers.  According to ACTUAL DATA from Plug In America, a Tesla Model S battery loses 5% of capacity in first 50,000 miles (roughly 5 years of average use) and battery degradation actually then reduces.  That may be why Tesla offer an unlimited mileage warranty on their batteries - something Hyundai also do in US.  The average across all EVs in the US is that they lose less than 15% of capacity over 7 years (roughly 85,000 miles). That is actual real world data, and battery degradation as Tesla have shown is not linear but actually decreases over time.  So 15-20 year lifespan for EV batteries is very realistic - and the batteries are getting better.  Like all cars some manufacturers are better than others so a Tesla or Hyundai will happily do 250,000 miles and still have decent battery capacity compared to the original capacity, whereas some of the earlier Nissan Leafs seem to have had problemsIt is perhaps also worth pointing out that the typical warranty on EV batteries is 8 years and for internal combustion engine, especially if petrol driven, it is 3 years

Justin Stephenson ● 2128d

What is the difference in price between a Tesla and a say Nissan Leaf?

Philippa Bond ● 2128d

Why does an electric vehicle on a new battery require a jump start ??

Steven Trembath ● 2128d

Run out of mango juice lord T

Julian Pavey ● 2128d

It is good to see that car clubs can be popular then.  Your son, Julian, obviously spoke to the car club so they will have realised that there was a problem but if there is no feedback then they can't be expected to know.  I wonder if Alex gave feedback to the car club as well?  I hope he didn't just do the British just walk away thing..  If you don't give feedback then you can't expect improvement.

Philippa Bond ● 2128d

Yes he did when cancelling membership  Its a issue that has been around since the invention of the car club. Supply and demand which they obviously cant supply or change for unknown reasons. Great if your lucky at the time otherwise useless

Julian Pavey ● 2128d

Oh I dunno, Ken, ever hear of a malfunction?

David Lesniak ● 2128d

Stephen, batteries can fail for other reasons not just run out of power,The 12v battery on the leaf is a reserve  and to get you somewhere, garage, home, whatever from the info on Google.

Janice Evans ● 2128d

This is interesting:https://www.octopusev.com/powerloop

Philippa Bond ● 2128d

Julian - your post is interesting.  I don't remember car clubs being oversubscribed when I first heard of them and wrote about them.I do know of problems with people being unable to charge their own cars at the street charging points because of car club cars being there.  Maybe there are just still not enough charging points?  There are maps showing the prevalence of the different types. The number though are increasing all the time especially now that the petrol companies are putting in some serious ones.  This should be further investigated.  The more we share the easier it will be to get around.We had friends who would get the train into work and then when necessary use a car club car for site visits but I guess those weren't on the spur rentals. Ubers have been the way youngsters got around recently before Covid.

Philippa Bond ● 2128d

Personally I wouldn't get the Tesla (price £45-50k)but the Hyundai Kona. The Kona is £33-35k new which is about £5k more than the Leaf but worth every penny.  Depending on what deals Hyundai are running you could get it on PCP for around £280 per month.Still think EVs are on average £8-10k too expensive though

Justin Stephenson ● 2128d

Justin, KIA are about 24k no idea how good they are.

Janice Evans ● 2128d

Janice that is the price of the ICE version of the Nero.  The full electric version comes in 3 versions at £29k (182 miles range), £34k (282 mile range) and a super spec version at £36k.  It is a very good car.  The Hyundai Kona uses the same drive train and battery but is slightly cheaper.Of the two I prefer the Kia but have never owned a Kia before whereas I have owned, many years ago, a Hyundai which was extremely well built and just plain fun.

Justin Stephenson ● 2127d