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Be very careful people.I don't live in the area anymore and haven't seen a photograph so I can't comment on the legality of the structure.But I have to question Cllr. Biddolph's claim that Hounslow's enforcement team have categorically said they will not take enforcement action.  It is normal procedure, when a breach of planning control is established by a local authority, for the authority to write to the perpetrator requesting that either remedial action be taken (i.e. the removal of the structure) or that a retrospective application be submitted.  If, after 28 days neither course of action is taken, then at that point the Council has to decide whether or not it is expedient having regard to the development plan and all other material planning considerations.It seems extremely odd to me that Council officers would supposedly simply tell a Councillor that they weren't going to do anything about it, without properly explaining that decision.But be very careful about making wild accusations about bribes and such like.  I'm intrigued to know the basis for Jeremy's claim that Hounslow and JC Decaux have a cosy relationship.When I became Head of Planning Enforcement at Hounslow, the person I replaced had taken a senior role at JC Decaux.  Now inevitably that meant from time to time our paths crossed, and I can say with absolute certainty that at no time did the authority show any favouritism to JC Decaux or AN Other, indeed in anything the opposite because we were aware that their rivals might jump on the slightest suggestion of anything untoward.  In the same way, after I'd left Hounslow and worked for one of the UK's biggest housebuilders, if I ever socialised with people from Hounslow there was the same degree of 'distance' shown by Officers towards me for precisely the same reasons.But if you're going to come on here and make suggestive comments about 'cosy relationships' and 'bribes' then perhaps engage your brains and think about the potential consequences of such posts first.That's not meant as a threat, I couldn't care less (although if anyone ever makes any such claims about me then I wouldn't hesitate to instigate legal action) but it genuinely bemuses me sometimes why people use social media and public forums to make claims that they can't back up - in a similar context some people make all kind of accusations about the former owners of Blackpool FC and then had to resort to grovelling apologies or donations to charity when faced with legal action.

Adam Beamish ● 2142d

Mr Beamish, I am not making wild accusations.The basis for my suggestion that there is a cosy relationship between the council and French based multi-national J C Decaux is that I have seen council advertising appear consistently in the latter's spaces.On one occasion in the last year I saw a council ad on the large billboard near the Kew Bridge junction. These placements cost a five figure sum. I don't drive that way regularly so this may not have been a one off.On High Streets in the borough including Chiswick, I regularly see council advertisment on the increasingly pervasive J C Decaux digital advertising boards. Although advertising here is not as expensive as billboards the rack rates are still quite high.This leaves us with two possibiities. Firstly, that Hounslow Council are spending a substanial amount of borough taxpayers' money on advertising with JC Decaux. Or secondly that JC Decaux have offered substantially discounted space to the council. Either possibility, I would suggest, qualifies as a cosy relationship.The council could clear up any uncertainty by declaring that they pay full market rate for any space provided to them by JC Decaux. If they do not, it is a reasonable assumption that they are being given benefits by the company which have a significant monetary value.The council is the authority which determines a significant number of applications submitted by JC Decaux. If JC Decaux have unsold advertising space to give away there are many local charities that would appreciate it but, if they are choosing to give it to the council, what other explanation is there for this than they are seeking to gain influence.Your rather shrill response to the mere suggestion that the appearance of this is not great does not give me the slightest concern that I am about to be Carter Rucked. There are clearly matters of serious public concern here and you are naive and blinkered not to think so.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2142d

Jeremy, isn't it abit 'daft' to suggest I'm naive and blinkered when I've spent over 22 years working in the planning sector, 10 years within the public sector (including 5 at Hounslow) and 12 years within the private sector ?.Generally speaking, I find a significant proportion of Joe Public is very quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to how the public sector behaves.  Without trying very hard I could quickly come up with websites set up by Members of the public whose entire content is an attempt  to undermine everything their local authority does.But as I always say take a step back.  Is a Planning Enforcement Officer really going to risk their livelihood, their career, just because there's a commercial relationship between the Council and a private company ?.  Or that the planning department deals with a planning application differently if the applicant is another arm of the Council or a private company who has a relationship a different arm of the Council ?.As I say, in my experience of working in this specific field for over 20 years on both sides of the fence (which, alhough I don't know for certain is likely to rather trump yours) such a suggestion is total nonsense 99.9% of the time (there is always the one bad egg).Dealing with many different local authorities on a daily basis I'm often very critical of the service I receive.  Part of me appreciates (because I've been there) that its down to resources, but too often I don't think Officers help themselves.  But simply providing a poor service and something altogether more sinister are poles apart.Turning to Jayne the fact that a breach of planning control has taken place doesn't mean that the Council is duty bound to take enforcement action, it is a case of assessing the expediency of taking enforcement action and there are hundreds of times I've closed cases on the basis that it's not expedient to take action.  However, when doing so, a proper explanation should be provided, especially to a Councillor.

Adam Beamish ● 2141d

The fact is it is the duty of the respective local planning authority to determine planning applications submitted by other arms/departments of the Council or any external individual or organisation.What you're effectively saying is that this isn't always appropriate.  I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that but it is irrelevant because that is how the system/law operates.  Where's your evidence to support the suggestion that Decaux's competitors are being treated differently ?. Hounslow's enforcement team have decided that it isn't expedient to enforce against this particular sign, now their failing in this regard is to fail to offer an explanation as to why, but the actual decision not to enforce is likely to be entirely justifiable.Broadly speaking, if an authority receives 1000 enforcement complaints less than 1/10th of those will result in formal enforcement action being taken.  Such action is a last resort and should always be commensurate with the breach.  Several hundred cases a year will be closed on the basis that it isn't expedient to enforce. As I said in my original post when I was at Hounslow the relationship with Decaux was open to scrutiny because my predecessor had joined Decaux.  But I know that there was never any favouritism or different/preferential treatment shown towards Decaux than there was to any other advertisement company.  Don't forget Jeremy that I don't just act for developers or applicants, I act for objectors, residents group, local societies, and to blow my own trumpet I do it bloody well, so any suggestion that I'm blinkered or naive or too close to the issue is laughable.

Adam Beamish ● 2141d

Frances,The correspondence from LBH which Cllr. Biddolph posted on this thread clearly showed that the local authority had investigated, established a breach but had decided that it wasn't expedient to take enforcement action.The front page article however completely contradicts this by implying that enforcement action has been taken.I think your mind can follow that ;-)And of course it also fuels the fire to run a story that implies that the Council have taken formal legal action against a company and then suddenly decide not to pursue it further, thereby acting in a wholly contradictory manner, than to state that the Council decided it wasn't appropriate to pursue legal action from the outset.It's the kind of reporting I expect of the gutter press when it either fails to report certain key facts just to add some 'juice' to a story and because it knows its readers will lap it up.  You should also note that in my response to Cllr. Biddolph I commented that it was unacceptable for the Council to not provide a detailed explanation as to why it didn't consider it expedient to take any enforcement action in this case.  Knowing the advert regs as I do they are extremely complicated and as another poster surmised there may well be an established 'fallback' position in this case which the Council has to consider when deciding whether it is expedient to enforce, but unless the Council provide an explanation then we are all in the dark, and as I said in my response to Cllr. Biddolph the absence of an explanation is of no help to anyone.

Adam Beamish ● 2136d

Mark,You wrote :"I don't think any key facts are being distorted here. The board is illegal, the council notified JC Decaux it was illegal, JC Decaux ignored the letter, the council didn't bother to follow up."I'm sorry, but your quote above, whilst entirely correct, contradicts the front page article and only highlights my point.  Does the front page article imply the Council didn't follow up on the fact the display was illegal ?.I'm sorry to be sarcastic, but the answer is no, the front page article clearly states that the Council went to the trouble of taking formal enforcement action and then subsequently decided, for whatever reason, not to pursue the matter further.Which would seem, whether you're an expert in the field or the average person in the street, very odd.It's like the Daily Mail running a story that I'd been charged with murder only for the case to be mysteriously dropped just before the trial commenced, when in fact I was never charged with any crime because the CPS decided after I'd be questioned that there wasn't a sufficient strong case to charge me.The site ran the article after this thread was already well advanced and one of the posts included the direct response from the Council, so there's no excuse for the site to get the facts wrong.As I said earlier in this thread, it is perfectly standard practice for an Enforcement Team to close an enforcement investigation, despite having established a breach, on the basis that it isn't expedient to take enforcement action.  I myself have closed hundreds, if not thousands, of enforcement cases in my time on the basis that it wasn't expedient to take enforcement action.  And those cases related to breaches committed by residents, businesses, other Council departments are so forth, and the decision not to enforce was always based solely on planning considerations.So, as someone "in the know" I know this isn't unusual or uncommon, and my original postings on this thread were intended merely to clarify that for the benefit of everyone.  And I have repeatedly said that to me it is unacceptable of the Council not to have provided Cllr. Biddolph with a proper explanation of why it decided it wasn't expedient to enforce, so I am not trying to get the Council exonerated of anything.Indeed, I couldn't care less about the Council, I deal with Councils everyday and often not in a amicable or positive manner, and on many occasions I get costs awarded against Councils for their 'unreasonable behaviour'.  But I don't like it when stories, be it about planning or anything else, are distorted or twisted because they'll be received better by their readers.

Adam Beamish ● 2136d

There's some odd contradictions here, and no just in terms of the front page article.  The Council wrote to Cllr. Biddolph and indicated that the sign was unauthorised but that it didn't consider it expedient to take enforcement action, but didn't explain why.Now on Twitter (not a communication tool I'm fond of for 'official 'business) the Council is saying that the sign is there with the benefit of express advertisement consent.Clearly the Council has done itself no favours in this regard with its poor communication, but when I've just reviewed the front page article again and looked at Streetview imagery I'm staggered why such a simple chain of events has generated such absurd accusations.Looking at the photo on the front page article and Google Stretview imagery, the sign is clearly there in October 2020, before the hoarding went up to the front of the parade around Empire House, and didn't impact upon pedestrians whatsoever - there was around 2.5 metres of unobstructed pavement between the shopfronts and the closest point of the sign (have a look for yourselves on the October 2020 Streetview imagery).But since then the hoarding has gone up over a significant area of the pavement creating a pinch point where the sign is located.So it seems absolutely clear cut that when LBH granted express advertisement consent for the sign that was an entirely reasonable decision, the sign didn't restrict pedestrian movement and so forth.  The fact that the Empire House hoarding has reduced the pavement width is the problem, and that's what needs addressing, not the sign.

Adam Beamish ● 2136d

Everyone,This is getting silly.As I keep saying, there's several apparent contradictions flying around.  The front page of this site suggests Hounslow have taken legal action against the sign when it hasn't.  Meanwhile, Hounslow has gone from writing to a Councillor saying the sign is illegal but it isn't expedient to take any action to now issuing a poorly worded statement saying that the sign is in place with the benefit of permission.From my research, it's clear that consent in April 2018 for a replacement sign around this location.  Unfortunately (and unhelpfully for us all) the online records currently only include the Officer report and the decision notice, not the plans.  So without sight of those plans none of us can say precisely where the approved location of that sign is.  But what I can say is that if the replacement sign was intended to be in the precise same position as that of the previous sign, it almost certainly wouldn't have needed consent - which strongly suggests that the sign as approved in April 2018 would have been in a different position to previously.You all keep saying about how the sign is "in the middle of the pavement" yet if you look at Streetview imagery from October 2020 you'll see that the distance between the shopfront and the closest point of the sign is at least 2.5 metres.  Indeed if you look at Streetview there's a guy walking just inside the sign and there's a huge unimpeded gap between him and the shopfront.That's why Hounslow would have approved the sign back in April 2018,  because it didn't impede the free flow of pedestrians in any way.If you still disagree with that (and if you do then I despair) then look at Streetview and compare the gap between the shopfront and the sign with the gap between the external seating area infront of the pub with the bike racks, tree, traffic lights and bin close to the edge of that pavement - the gap is at best the same and at worst slightly less yet that has been in place for years and no-one has ever complained about it impeding pedestrians.As another poster has already said, and as Streetview imagery from both June 2019 and October 2020 proves, the sign, when installed (which was before June 2019 as proved by Streetview imagery) after getting consent in April 2018, hasn't caused any problems to pedestrians whatsoever.  It hasn't just been installed, you have all walked past it and not thought anything of it.But of course what has changed in recent weeks is that the hoarding to the Empire House frontage has gone up.  That doesn't make the sign illegal.  If you park in a marked parking bay and then someone parks opposite, thereby causing an obstruction for the flow of traffic, that's not your fault.What you are all basing your posts on (in the same way to some extent I have been) is that an Officer write to Councillor Biddolph stating the sign was illegal but that it wasn't expedient to take action.  Yet Hounslow itself has since issued a press release contradicting what the Officer said.As I've said from the start, Hounslow should explain itself better.  All Hounslow needs to do is issue a proper statement showing the approved location of the sign, confirming that it is lawful and that the Officer's letter to Cllr. Biddolph was wrong (we all make mistakes) and the problem is the hoarding which one would expect the Council is in dialogue regarding the relocation of.Of course until then I suspect you'll all continue with your rather daft suggestions of dodgy dealings and such like, rather than acknowledging that Streetview imagery clearly shows that the sign doesn't create any obstruction whatsoever were it not for the hoarding which has been installed on the public highway.Hounslow could and should nip all this silliness in the bud in a matter of minutes.

Adam Beamish ● 2135d

With all due respect to Adam Beamish's long experience it looks like this display was never actually approved.I asked a friend who has expertise in this matter to look at the case and she was very dismissive of the idea that it could have been given permission.Adam Beamish claims that if they just wanted to replace the existing sign at the same spot they could have done so without asking permission and therefore this 'proves' they were requesting permission to move it. I am assured this is incorrect as the nature of the sign was changing to digital display from static display.Mr Beamish also asserts without the documentation showing the location we can't know for sure where permission was granted for exactly. My friend dismisses this saying that there is a categoric reference to the existing site in the decision notice and it is clearly described as a replacement. The change in location is material and allowing this would have needed to be justified in the decision notice.It is also said that this issue was not raised by anyone when the sign was installed, not incidentally two and a half years ago as the council claimed, but in 2019. My understanding is that this is not the case and there were a number of complaints sent to the council immediately after the installation.The scenario that Mr Beamish seems to want us to believe is simply preposterous. The idea that a planning officer ruled this in breach in error and that Hounslow Council have the documentation that proves that the sign is legally placed but for some reason don't want to show it to us doesn't make any sense. I am a loss to think why he would consider putting forward such an argument.The more likely scenario is that the council issued their very ill-considered statement without checking with the planning department. The statement reads as if it was written by JC Decaux and republished by the Council and provides some confirmation that the closeness of this relationshup may not be in the best interests of residents.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2135d

Jeremy, now you're getting offensive.Your 'friend' - what's their expertise ?.  I'll give you mine, degree in town planning, postgraduate diploma in town ad country planning, 10 years experience at 5 different local authorities including 5 years at team leader level specialising in enforcement and appeals.  12 years working for housebuilders, a medium sized planning consultancy, a multi-disciplinary multinational consultancy, and the last 3.5 years as a self-employed planning consultant acting on behalf of developers, local authorities and objectors.I know my stuff.  And I don't have any professional or personal interest or agenda in this matter to influence my posts. Quite frankly I couldn't care less about the sign, but it would be useful to everyone to have the matter cleared up once and for all.I don't know your friend from the next person and to be fair to them they can only comment based on however it is has been presented to them,  so I'm not going to insult them the way you are insulting me.If you or your friend (as I have done) bother to look up the application online you will note that both the decision notice and the Officer report refers to 'advertising right outside 426 CHR'.The description of the development uses the word 'replacement' but at no point within the decision notice or the officer report does it expressly state that the sign was to replace the previous one in precisely the same position.That doesn't mean that it was necessarily approved in a different location to the sign which previously existed.  That is where the absence of any kind of location plan on the website record for this application is a problem.  And just to be clear there were plans submitted as part of the application because the decision notice expressly refers to them , i.e. 'unnumbered proposed block plan, unnumbered location plan'.So neither you nor I nor your friend know the precise position where the sign was approved, and nor will we until we have sight of that plan.As for the argument I'm putting forward, I recognise that human beings make mistakes.  I go back to the very early days of my planning career and recall how I once wrote to someone advising that something they had built required planning permission and hadn't got planning permission, only for the recipient of that letter to point out that it had got planning permission.  I'm not perfect, no-one is, and based on my 10 years in local government and 22 years of working in a sector that involves day-to-day interaction with local authorities I know that mistakes are made.As I keep saying, and it seems the only thing we agree on, Hounslow could and should clarify matters to put an end to this speculation.But as an ex-Head of Enforcement, my view is :(a) if the sign is in place as approved in 2018 then that's an end to the matter, or ;(b) if the sign isn't in place as approved, then Hounslow has to make a decision as to the expediency of taking formal action.  The only 2 considerations are public safety and amenity.  Whatever you or I or anyone else might think, the fact the Council has approved a replacement sign, regardless of the position of that sign, means that the Council couldn't justify taking legal action against the sign on amenity grounds.So that leaves public safety.  As I've pointed out, there's 2.5 metres between the sign and the inside edge of the pavement (i.e. the shopfront).  So the sign wouldn't be impeding anyone, were it not for the hoarding which has been recently installed on the public highway and which reduces that 2.5 metre distance significantly.But the Council cannot take action against the sign on the basis of public safety just because a hoarding has gone up on the pavement.  In assessing action against the sign, the Council can only consider whether the positioning of the sign would cause impediment if the hoarding wasn't there, because the hoarding wouldn't normally be there.You might not like what I say, that's fine, you might think that Hounslow and Decaux have something going on, again that's your choice, but don't insult me.

Adam Beamish ● 2135d

Oh please Jeremy - I keep agreeing with you and others that the Council could and should resolve this by issuing a clear statement about what it gave consent for in 2018, what its enforcement investigation has established and the basis, if it established a breach but decided it wasn't expedient to enforce, for that decision.Why can we just leave it at that ?.Your friend, if they are an expert, will acknowledge that there is considerable case law about whether changing a display from a static to a dynamic display requires a fresh express advertisement consent application (BTW signage does not require planning permission), with differing conclusions depending upon the specific circumstances of each case.The decision notice itself would not mention the change in location, as whether the sign has moved or not the one constant is that it would be still located outside 426 CHR.Would the delegated report ? - if I was writing that report then yes, I would have made specific reference to the position of the sign changing.  But what I would do is irrelevant, and neither of us are in a position to make assumptions or draw conclusions.I come across lots of applications, including ones which I have submitted myself, where documentation either isn't uploaded in its completeness to an LPA website, or it is and then at some later point it disappears.  It frustrates me, but as I say when your work involves interacting with Councils on a daily basis you know that this happens, and is usually more about incompetence/lack of care than anything 'dodgy'.Unless and until the Council make any further comment I just don't see the point in speculating.

Adam Beamish ● 2134d

As previously indicated, a Council can only refuse a signage application on amenity or public safety grounds.Amenity is a wholly subjective consideration.  For me, whilst I acknowledge the site falls within a Conservation Area, I don't feel the sign, either taking in isolation or collectively, fails to preserve the character of the Conservation Area.  Others will think differently, as I say it is entirely subjective.Turning to public safety, demonstrating that a sign like this is prejudicial safety is extremely difficult, particularly as it's a pretty 'standard' type of display.  I know that if I was working at a local authority I wouldn't have a cat in hells chance of defending a refusal on such grounds.As for pedestrian safety, it must be stressed that this has to be based upon the circumstances at the time when consent was approved for.  On a pavement which is 5.97 metres wide, if the sign is set-in from the carriageway kerb by 2.01 metres, and say the sign is 1 metre wide, that leaves 2.96 metres of unobstructed pavement.  That is a very substantial distance and again there isn't a cat in hells chance of a local authority refusing an application on such a basis.It's the same basic principle as when someone applies for a tables and chairs licence, the distance varies but typically for a licence to be granted it will be necessary to ensure that at least 1.5 - 2 metre of unimpeded pavement is left.  Indeed, as I pointed out earlier, I doubt the width of the pavement between the outdoor seating area of the Old Packhorse and the kerbside is anything like as wide as 2.96 metres.The problem for the Council now is that it cannot quash a consent (for the sign) which it granted in April 2018.  That consent was issued entirely properly and correctly.  The fact that a hoarding has now been installed on the public highway in this location has no bearing upon the legal status of the sign.However, one assumes that the hoarding cannot be moved to such an extent that this pinch point would be removed.  So logically you'd think that Hounslow would approach Decaux and ask them (and certainly there is no legal recourse under planning legislation to force Decaux to do so) if they would relocate the sign so that it is closer to the kerb until the hoarding can be removed.

Adam Beamish ● 2134d

I'm in 2 minds whether to post this, but in the interests of completeness I will do.At some point since this afternoon, LBH has also uploaded the approved technical specification of the signage, which is on separate document to the location plan which was uploaded earlier this afternoon.The point remains that the sign is sited in its approved position, which is the crucial point.However, the actual sign structure isn't precisely as approved, because as approved it would have had a narrow supporting base, and then widen to 1.272 metres wide from the base of the advert panel to the top of the panel.  However as constructed, the supporting base is the same width as the actual panel.So the sign hasn't been installed precisely as it was approved.  However, the positioning of the sign is correct.If (as for many years it was) it was my call as to whether or not it was expedient to enforce against the fact the base of the structure is wider than as approved then I'd conclude that it wasn't expedient to enforce, the fact that the base of the sign isn't narrower than the rest of the panel makes no difference whatsoever having regard to amenity or public safety.Before anyone (I'm looking at you Jeremy) takes issue with anything I have posted please review the documentation which belatedly now appears to all have been uploaded to Hounslow's website before responding.Of course, as I've said from the outset, all this could and should have been nipped in the bud by Hounslow issuing a detailed response from the outset.By the same token, the front page article should also be reviewed and amended.

Adam Beamish ● 2134d

"Resorting to abuse" - are you being serious ?.  I said that if that is what Francis and others wanted to believe then each to their own, but given my experience of dealing with local authorities on a daily basis it isn't unusual for not all the documentation to be correctly available on an LPA website.Councils have to assess the expediency of taking enforcement action based on the particular circumstances of each case.  I've made that judgement call hundreds of times, that doesn't mean I've always got it right, because often the issues are subjective, but I know the key considerations which the Council has to take into account.And that considerations don't include the identity of the perpetrator - in my time I've served enforcement notices on householders, small business and multi-national companies.No-one has said that relocating the sign isn't a material change.  The express advertisement consent application in 2018 related to that change in position.  What you're saying makes sense to you and others because it suits your purposes, I don't have any agenda here.  I haven't worked for Hounslow for over 14 years, I don't have any connections to Decaux, I'm not personally affected by the sign.  But I do have vast knowledge and experience in this field.I have offered the view that, if I was determining that application in 2018 and was fully aware of where the replacement sign was to be located, I would have approved that application because there was no reason not to.  You may disagree with that, of course again that's fine, but I wouldn't rate anyone's chances of defending such a refusal on appeal.Richard - it's perfectly normal for a sign to be located in the position that sign was approved in.  Nothing unusual or rare about a sign being set in 2 metres from the kerbside, in fact more the norm because the closer to the kerb the potentially more distractive to traffic it could be, or a driver might not have time to react to see someone emerging from behind the sign to cross the road.  And as I've said previously a gap of 2+ metres between the inside of the sign and the shopfront is more than sufficient to prevent the sign causes any obstruction to pedestrians (putting to one side the issue of the recently installed hoarding).Anyway, I'm finished with this thread now.  Sadly it has only reminded me of what I so rarely post on these forums now and why I sometimes say the best thing about working in the private sector is that you can choose your clients.  I always try to be fair and helpful, and there's many residents over the years who will confirm that I've helped them (for free) with planning issues, and that I'm not averse to criticising LBH or any other authority when such criticism is justified (I recently assisted Vanessa Smith with the farce of the baby poo coloured rendering to houses in Isleworth and was very critical of how LBH had conducted itself).  I've spent this morning writing one of many costs applications I made against Councils on behalf of clients due to their unreasonable behaviour.But too often this forum reminds me of how, when I'm acting for a residents association or such like, there's always 1 or 2 individuals whose attitude completely undermines the credible concerns and reasonable attitudes of the others in the group.And then people complain about why Councillors and Councils don't tend to use these forums !.I'll leave you all to it.

Adam Beamish ● 2133d

Honesty, I give you with some of you, and Vanessa, you were an ex-Councillor who sat on a planning committee, you should know better than to always tar the Council with the same brush.Firstly, Decaux applied for the sign in a different position to where their previous one was installed.  They had the right to do so, and the Council had to determine the merits of that application.  The Council couldn't just say "we preferred the previous location", it had to find material harm with the revised position to justify a refusal.Remember when the sign was applied for back in 2018 the hoarding wasn't there (and  nor was covid).  The pavement was 5.97 metres wide, and in its applied for position the sign left over 2.5 metres of unobstructed pavement between the shopfront and the sign.  Are you seriously suggesting that a pavement of over 2.5 metres unimpeded width is unsafe ? - most pavements are half that width.There was no good planning reason (and there has to be a sound planning reason, which isn't because Joe Bloggs or Joanne Smith of Chiswick doesn't like it) for the Council to refuse the application when it was applied for.  I'm sorry for my long posts explaining the fineries of material considerations but if I turn round and say "most of you haven't got the foggiest what you're talking about and are blaming the Council because you are ignorant on these matters" then you'll say I'm being rude and condescending.  We all agree that because of the situation that has arisen as a result of the recently erected hoarding LBH, Decaux and the owners of the Empire House frontage should work together to come to an amicable solution for the benefit of you, the residents.But labelling the Council as corrupt, morally bankrupt or such like due to your own (understandable) ignorance on such matters doesn't do you any favours whatsoever.

Adam Beamish ● 2131d

Alan - 'amenity' isn't concerned with whether something is of any benefit to, or well liked by, residents or not.  Indeed, the number of supporters or objectors to an application carries no weight in the determination of that application (and indeed there is no statutory requirements, in terms of applications for signage consent, to formally consult the public at all).As you say, people do find that difficult to understand.  Planning isn't a popularity contest.  A fair proportion of my work is on behalf of fast food operators and I've had applications which are wholly compliant with all planning permission attract over 700 objectors.  Of course neither I nor my client set out to upset 700 people, but its part of the job, if I wanted to do a job where I was liked, I'd have taken a very different career/education path 25 years ago.Amenity isn't defined anywhere in planning legislation.  In this particular case it's primary about whether the structure preserves the character of the immediate locality, which includes the Conservation Area.  And in making that judgement, significant weight had to be attached to the existence of the existing sign and whether the relocated sign would have any significantly greater impact upon the area than the existing sign.Of course it is a wholly subjective in the same way that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Taking in the round (which I've touched on above), if I put myself in the Officer's shoes in 2018, I wouldn't have felt there was a compelling case to refuse the application on amenity grounds (but that shouldn't be taken as a glowing endorsement of the sign).However, I'd at least feel that there was a slight chance that a refusal on amenity grounds might have stood up at appeal, whereas I'd have known that I wouldn't have a leg to stand on to refuse the application on public safety grounds, which is what people have been largely focusing upon.But Councils won't refuse applications on a whim or just to keep the locals happy.  Defending a refusal on appeal costs time and money in terms of resources.  Of course there are many times when refusal is entirely justified, and many times I act on behalf of objectors /in support of a Council decision to refuse an application when it subsequently goes to appeal, only last week we secured the dismissal of an appeal against a residential scheme in LBH&F which I thought was genuinely terrible in all respects (not just of subjective amenity grounds).So it's all about judgement on the relative circumstances of each particular case, and I firmly stand by my view that this thread is completely out of proportion with the specific issue, which really is all about how the sign (consented in 2018) has now become a problem because of the recently erected hoarding narrowing the pavement.

Adam Beamish ● 2131d

Morning Adam,I think I understand pretty much everything you've written so far.I have also thought for several years that the public deserves a debate on “advertising”.  The extent to which it's a valued wing of the wider “market”.  And a  discussion on whether or where  limits and constraints to advertising might be applied.  Such as pavements - and our own letter-boxes.  Are they ours?  Do we own them?  If so, what right has anyone to plop stuff (junk) through them?About this sign.  Whilst understanding all you say I'd challenge your entire industry, including legislative bodies like Councils, to define the word amenity.Because I categorically do NOT believe an advert is an amenity.  In the sense that a swimming pool or a car park is an amenity.I believe that to maintain that an advert is, or even can be, or ever was, an amenity is a misconstruction of the word amenity that's taken root in your business - and perhaps needs digging out.To the eyes of us amateurs, your excellent and detailed explanation of what's gone on here, largely confirms the legal status quo of gobbledegook. And sadly I think it's fair to conclude that hoping the Council might retrospectively declare that the bloody sign should never have been allowed in the first place (by the  tree) is wishful thinking, simply because precedent has been set.Which is infuriating.Or would be infuriating if one was that way inclined. Simpler to sigh and look away.(PS: I also believe some on here have demonised Hounslow Council to such an extent I doubt they'll ever listen again to yet more moans from W4)

Stuart Kerr ● 2130d

I'd like to say how much a group of us in Isleworth have appreciated Adam's advice on a couple of matters, and as he said - Hounslow council were found wanting. I also think if you deal with planning issues as a member of a local amenity (that word again) group, it is very easy to become jaundiced with some of the decisions and lack of action, and that is not to 'demonise' the council, it is the reality. I can think of one enforcement case that has been rumbling on for getting on for eight years! There is one recent complaint where 'multiple breaches' (Hounslow's words) of planning permission have happened, doesn't seem to be much interest/inclination to do anything, but a rumpus over the external colour the council insisted on painting some houses saw them spring into action over one luckless tenant who had the temerity to over-paint in a more acceptable colour (which planning questionably had made a condition) and issue all sorts of threats. In this dreadful time we've had to live with of course things have not been normal, but to refuse to come out and see things reported to enforcement in a conservation area, because of Covid and enforcement not being considered 'an essential service', makes you wonder.One last thing - if planning cannot resolve this hoarding squabble, what about the Highways Act Section 137 - obstruction of the footpath?137Penalty for wilful obstruction.(1)If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding [F1level 3 on the standard scale].

Vanessa Smith ● 2130d

Bernard is on the right track.I agree the sign is in the wrong place period, regardless of planning permission. There is no need for advertising in the middle of a sidewalk. Other examples along CHR have these types of signs at the curb. It reminds me of when the road sign went up in the middle of the pavement on Turnham Green Terrace. Specificity and/or circumstance often goes amiss in the planning department as we have seen personally twice in the past nine months.The hoarding is temporary as is the need for social distancing (fingers crossed). I've no idea what's coming at that building site nor the scheduling of it. But the means and methods for demolition, site work and construction require hoarding be in place for both public and site safety. That's a given for the duration of the project. Distancing is required at present. The variable for the immediate future is the sign. It is creating not only a nuisance but worse, a hazard at present. It can be removed and put back per the planning permission as and when the hoarding comes down. As an alternative, JCD could also relocate it to allow for the distancing currently required not to mention being trumpeted by LBH in other locations with their pandemic-related initiatives on TGT and Devonshire Road. It baffles me they are not taking a pro-active stance in providing the same safety measures on CHR. Using our own  recent experiences I have found that, while utterly frustrating, sometimes you have to lay out the reasoning for the planning department to open their eyes to see the bigger picture.

David Lesniak ● 2128d