Forum Topic

Thames Road access REVISED

Sorry I missed the first part of Hounslow's reply in my previous posting.Again, can someone please explain it to me. "In response to the question you raised regarding the time limit for Thames road, At the current time the Council does not hold the information requested regarding the time limit. However, should at any time the Council hold such information then it is likely that we would treat that information as exempt under Section 31 (2) (c) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 as the timing element is in place to facilitate and enable the enforcement of a restriction. Further, releasing the pre-determined timings relating to the linked-cameras for this scheme is likely to start to dilute the effectiveness of the measure over time as there is a chance this information would become general knowledge. This in turn would likely undermine the purpose of the scheme which is to prevent through traffic.Details can be found in the FOI guidance here: https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1207/law-enforcement-foi-section-31.pdf . There is no intention to issue penalty charge notices for legitimate access journeys. The penalty in question is not the time limit, but the purpose of the journey i.e. is it for access (permitted) or non-access (not permitted) purposes.  These type of access-only schemes are being trialled as part of Streetspace and we will be reviewing ways in which they can be made clearer and more effective. Residents feedback on this will be very important."

Jeffrey Cope ● 2144d44 Comments

Stanley Unwin meets Franz Kafka

Russell Pearson ● 2144d

If I enter the Access Only area in order - say - to post a card through a friend’s door and then drive straight on out the other end,  how would I dispute a fine? I could well be less than 5 minutes or whatever the fixed limit is. Or I could be 15 minutes if I get stuck behind a bin lorry. The system is totally flawed. But I still haven’t spotted the camera up at Kew Bridge end, has anyone else?

Julia Watkiss ● 2144d

Pure Sir Humphrey!What on earth is this? "the Council does not hold the information requested regarding the time limit. " So who does? Somebody, somewhere is deciding on what basis a ticket will be issued. Maybe it involves tossing a coin.

Bruce Hammal ● 2144d

Leaving aside the Post Office close to Kew Bridge can someone identify the siting of a pillar box in Thames Road for me? If possible, I intend to test the Council's assertions. I would be willing to take the matter to appeal if necessary.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2144d

"The penalty in question is not the time limit but the purpose of the journey". So these cameras must be capable of reading the driver's mind.

Alan Green ● 2144d

If this laughable bit of gobbledy-gook is legal then in the time-honoured phrase, the law is an ass.

Bruce Hammal ● 2144d

Is this any use?

Bruce Hammal ● 2144d

Thanks, I'll put a card in each box in Thames Road and see what response it elicits when I egress after 5 minutes.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2144d

It's significant that they admit that this timing method is being trialled, and they confirm that the offence is not driving through in any particular time but driving through without 'accessing' any location on the way.  This could legitimately be unrelated to the time it might take, so they could be hard pressed to actually prove that a driver didn't actually stop for access, only that it might at best be unlikely in view of the comparatively short time spent there. Will any court accept this lack of actual proof? The company providing the kit must have convinced someone.  With the selective number plate recognition system at the other end of Grove Park, and the periodic school street detectors, this area seems to have become a test/demonstration zone for the camera company. I expect we'll be seeing visitors from other parts of the country, and indeed the world, beating a path to Grove Park to look on in amazement at the sophistication of the installation - and the chaos it will be causing!

Peter Evans ● 2144d

WSP a is the company, Taranto is the software. I’ve asked LBH some questions on how they’re using it. Awaiting answers.

Russell Pearson ● 2144d

I got fined in Wandsworth, not noticing a sign. On going past on foot I looked for a camera. It was at the back of a No Entry sign which was about 3cm deep, rather than just a flat plate, so very hard to see. So there may be similar cameras about. How about crowd-funding an experiment with various drivers taking increasing stop times in Thames Road to find when a fine is triggered? Then at least we would know where we stand.

Vivienne Cox ● 2144d

"Stanley Unwin meets Franz Kafka."A perfect description, Russell. Now, can anyone tell me, if I drive from Grove Park to the post office, stop and go into the P.O. to make a purchase, then carry on and turn left onto Kew Bridge, do I incur a fine?

Colin Jordan ● 2144d

Possibly both a fine and not one, did you access the PO, or just pass, or post a letter? I will ask Schrödinger's cat to see if he knows the answers on each.

Russell Pearson ● 2144d

"if I drive from Grove Park to the post office, stop and go into the P.O. to make a purchase, then carry on and turn left onto Kew Bridge, do I incur a fine?"More to the point, are you violating the access restriction?  The answer is no. If you get a PCN, you challenge it on the grounds that you were making a legal access.

Richard Jennings ● 2144d

I can't see how this is enforceable - it is far too subjective. How is a spotty herbert issuing PCNs under some secret  time/distance formula supposed to adjuducate over  intention? There are so many possible scenarios here that a court of enquiry would be required, or maybe a spot of waterboarding  in order to even begin to make a case for the prosecution. I suspect that almost every PCN issued here will be challenged.

Bruce Hammal ● 2144d

What puzzles me is how this experimental camera rig can ever provide evidence of 'access' or not.  The WPS/Taranto site is full of stuff about using their cameras to clock cars driving past a point, such as in and out of a car park or past a road 'closure' with or without a 'permit', or using multiple cameras to provide average speed read-outs to enforce speed limits, but nowhere can I see mention of extrapolating speed measurements to enforce a completely different restriction.

Peter Evans ● 2144d

It’s clever tech, could have been used in a far better way - though I do have deep reservations about where that leaves us. But it cannot measure intent.

Russell Pearson ● 2144d

Thank you for your responses. My intention is to buy some stamps and post some cards. Maybe I need to register it with the Ministry of Intentions before I set out.

Colin Jordan ● 2143d

I'm a bit confused. If I go for a walk on SOTG and then want to exit left onto Kew Bridge, is that allowed?

Iris Hill ● 2143d

As long as you turn round and go out backwards!

Peter Evans ● 2143d

That would be access. What’s the camera situation now btw?

Russell Pearson ● 2143d

I am fairly confident that if this exchange ever ended up in court not only would LBH lose badly but it is entirely possible that they would be required to pay the applicant's legal costs in full (the precise term is on an indemnity scale which is far higher than the normal scale).What LBH have done is the equivalent of putting a sign up saying this road has a speed limit but refusing to tell us what the speed limit is because drivers might then drive down the road at below the published speed limit.It is pretty obvious that LBH consider that the Thames Road restriction has nothing to do with traffic management or encouraging cycling/walking it is purely about revenue - that is why they will not tell us what the time limit is

Justin Stephenson ● 2143d

"It is pretty obvious that LBH consider that the Thames Road restriction has nothing to do with traffic management or encouraging cycling/walking it is purely about revenue - that is why they will not tell us what the time limit is"I'd rather see it as a dishonest way to scare away drivers. The message being:"don't drive there as you may be fined. We will not tell you for what exactly, so just stay scared and keep away".

Alex Shpinkov ● 2143d

Sorry for being thick ... are the restrictions now active?And if they are, has anyone who has entered the zone, accessed premises and then left the zone using the other entry/exit point received a PCN?If they haven’t, I don’t see what the problem is about the council not revealing what the time threshold is - and it could be dynamic anyway.The analogy I’d use is that it’s like someone telling you the speed limit is 30, but not telling you what the threshold at which they will ticket you is.And, if you have cars passing one camera, and then the other, and they are all in the same order, chances are they haven’t accessed premises on their way through.You don’t need to observe a vehicle for the entirety of its passage through the zone, this isn’t criminal law we’re talking about. A reasonable certainty of proof is all that’s required, and if you genuinely did access premises and get a ticket issued inappropriately, appeal!

Andrew Jones ● 2143d

LBH has responded to one of my neighbours. The camera for the Kew Bridge end of Strand on the Green and the camera for Grove Park Road/Grove Park Terrace junction have not been installed yet. LBH say they will be installed at the start of the new year. Beggars belief that they are still referring to the scheme as being "live" from 7 December.I don't know if the Hartington Road camera is live - but I suspect so.

Alan McBride ● 2143d

Andrew, sorry to be offensive but have you ceased to be living in a democratic society, or have you acquiesced to the mind control of local government?It is not the few who  yearn for power who should be "controlling" the rest of us but they should be representing the majority's viewpoint.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2143d

According to my wife who walked the length of Thames Road on Friday there was a mobile camera car positioned at the Kew Bridge end but none at Grove Park Terrace. How is that supposed to work then?

Bruce Hammal ● 2143d

The cameras for HR have been up for quite a while. They are on a very tall pole just past Roku and the marina on the left hand side as you go into FP

Iris Hill ● 2143d

Thames Road ones will be 2021 apparently - then the fun will start as they try to enforce the fines. it’s all going to hinge on what ‘access’ really means. Could anyone in Grove Park argue they were accessing their way home for example, or would it only mean that small stretch of road - how are these things actually defined?

Russell Pearson ● 2143d

The road signs  warning drivers from Hartington Road into Thames road are clear as day,  there should be no excuses.

Matthew Swain ● 2143d

"I'm a bit confused. If I go for a walk on SOTG and then want to exit left onto Kew Bridge, is that allowed?"Not really. You're meant to go under Kew Bridge to complete the pub crawl at One Over the Ait.

Richard Jennings ● 2143d

I hope they get the speedsters I've experienced selfishly belting along Thames Road.

Philippa Bond ● 2142d

It probably won’t - it’s not a measure of speed but time between the 2 points. So they can speed, then stop off for a bit of access once the pubs reopen. And then speed off. Bit like the French.

Russell Pearson ● 2142d

So maybe other traffic calming measures will be needed?

Philippa Bond ● 2142d

Would this do for you Philippa?

Bruce Hammal ● 2142d

I wouldn't mind anything like that being deployed in front of some of the drivers who drive straight at you but those ones appear to be a bit impractical for a through road since they appear to be screwed down... :)

Philippa Bond ● 2142d

It's not screwed down, it just folds so you can keep it in your saddle-bag!

Bruce Hammal ● 2142d

Oh neat.  I've heard about the police using those stingers to stop stolen cars. I'm not a total car hater though. It just irritates me when people only seem to think they can go places if it is by car and fail to appreciate that they become the traffic when on the road and that motor vehicles also cause a lot of damage.  (Exceptions for those who really really have no alternative.  I've spent plenty of time ferrying people who can't get themselves around and trying to make their lives less of a challenge and do also think that they are short-changed.  I've always found it very ironic that cheap public transport is so often made available once people are too incapacitated to use it.)

Philippa Bond ● 2142d

They could roll it out in apparently random ways, but in fact, actually adhere to a set of completely secret guidelines. Or, to play car snooker.

Russell Pearson ● 2142d

For goodness sake, let's hope the council don't read this - they'd probably have a "stinger" patrol set up in no time!

Bruce Hammal ● 2142d

I have requested a reply using the Freedom of Information Act from Hounslow Council concerning the duration of stay in Thames Road. I await their reply.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2130d

Well good luck, but haven't they already said (in your original post) that they would refuse any such request?

Bruce Hammal ● 2130d

We'll see, won't we. Might be one for the Ombudsman.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2129d

This has to be the most moronic scheme ever. How can Steve Curran et al decide for individuals whether their journey initiates a fine. The whole LTN situation is a total farce and should be withdrawn. What a disgraceful waste of money when there are so many other urgent issues that require urgent action. Shame on you LBH

Elizabeth Price ● 2129d