Forum Topic

Ineos boss opts to build 'British' heir to Land Rover Defender in France

Hey Brexit fans, seeing as the dream is almost fulfilled, its great to see vocal Brexiter Sir Jim Ratcliffe vowed to make new Grenadier 4x4 in Bridgend but has now bought car plant at Hambach in France.Worth noting he now lives in Monaco for tax reasons!!!!!Paste the link below and enjoy the read.Sad to think the Welsh voted to leave, oh well I guess they didn't want those 500 jobs.https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/dec/08/ineos-boss-opts-to-build-british-heir-to-land-rover-defender-in-france

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2150d135 Comments

It is indeed disappointing that this is the case. However this is how democracy works. Please remember that the UK voted to leave the EU. Another example of democracy in action and should be respected as such.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2150d

I'm as passionate about democracy as anything I can think of, sadly we have never had it in this country. What we have is a 2 party dictatorship with no hope of a real majority and a country truly at ease with its self.The stonking 80 seat majority was won with less than 44% of the vote with the majority voting for parties against Brexit.More to the point the referendum was won with the backing and support of charlatans like Sir Jim Ratcliffe and their lies about the benefits of leaving.Well we will all find out soon enough how much better it feels being a sovereign nation again!!!

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2150d

I’m sorry, Jeffrey, that you have confused a simplistic referendum opinion vote with democracy. It’s an understandable and simple error given the shouting about this very issue. I’m very happy to explain the basis of this misunderstanding should you, or others, wish. In the meantime I will simply note that we are about to get what none of us were promised and relatively few voted for.

Alan Clark ● 2150d

More voted to leave than voted to stay overall. That's the way the cookie crumbles!

Jeffrey Cope ● 2150d

Well that is one perspective. Another is that the undecided who did not vote were stumped by the complexity and the confusion of issues. Not voting is not necessarily to commit to one side or other. Another perspective is that many (hey, let’s suggest 5% but my instinct is many more) who voted leave were actually voting against Tory Cameron or Westminster rather than truly for Brexit. Another perspective is that many (hey, let’s suggest 10% but most likely a lot more) thought that the promises of a great, better, easy deal were true. So they voted under a false prospective. But if that’s your notion of democracy in England then you are so very welcome to it. But it reeks of manure.

Alan Clark ● 2150d

First we were offered Norway. Then Switzerland. Then Canada. Now Australia, which is Johnson code for bugger all.Nobody mentioned bugger all in 2016.

Ken Munn ● 2150d

Have faith, it’s going to be great. People knew what they were voting for.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2150d

It's going brilliantly.24hr UK in auto- Honda factory shuts on parts shortage ports chaos- Toyota warns not just on no deal but deal detail/RoO- Brexit backing billionaire cans Welsh factory plan, picks French plant- car bosses tell MPs tariffs would see UK car production fall from 1.3-1.6m to 800kSunlit uplands just around the corner.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2150d

Whatever. Happy New Year!

Jeffrey Cope ● 2150d

Unless, that is, you work – or wanted to – in Bridgend, Derby or Sunderland.Still, it's only Project Fear, eh?

Ken Munn ● 2149d

There has been a clamour for Lewis Hamilton to be given a 'K', but there is also a school of thought that is saying that unless these people (Green, Branson, Ratcliffe etc.) live and pay tax here then they should be stripped of their knighthoods.

Vanessa Smith ● 2149d

There are plenty of knights in the Commonwealth who neither live in the UK or pay taxes here. I don't have the inside track on Lewis Hamilton's tax affairs but I understand he pays at least some tax in the UK.

Richard Greenhough ● 2149d

Love how the Remainers are rubbing their hands with glee when anything Brexit related goes wrong.

Maggie Dodge ● 2149d

They are sounding like Trump, in denial.

Janice Evans ● 2149d

Love how the Remainers are rubbing their hands with glee when anything Brexit related goes wrong.

Maggie Dodge ● 2149d

MY brief summary is that Brexit means we will get back a limited amount of control (whatever that means). The price being a lower Gross National Product which will largely impact the existing poor, also Northern Ireland joining up with Southern Ireland even more and possibly Scotland braking away from the UK.

Chris Dakers ● 2149d

I don't understand. It's not going wrong, this is what people voted for.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2149d

MD > "Love how the Remainers are rubbing their hands with glee when anything Brexit related goes wrong."Here's a success story: the UK and EU have sorted out, in principle, how the Northern Ireland protocol of the Withdrawal Agreement will be implemented.I think that's very good news.

John Whitworth ● 2149d

It is excellent news, although I think once the DUP realise they've done more for Irish Unification in 3 years than the IRA did in 30 there might be some exploding heads around Stormont way. Still they might want to reflect on that fact that if you can be bought, then you can also be sold, therefore be careful who you get into bed with.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2149d

Huw I don’t share your view, I don’t think most people really understood what they were voting for, the elderly voted referring back to the good old days ha! That’s what my parents told me 😱😱😱😱 when I told them that the vote doesn’t affect them but their kids and grandkids etc. My father just laughed! It became an emotive subject based on nothing. If anyone believed the fake news about  deals they clearly had no understanding of how the EU works?

Jayne Thorburn ● 2149d

From the Forum sage.'They are sounding like Trump, in denial'.On the contrary I think it is the Brexit at all costs brigade It won't belong before we will all be able to say - We told you so, this is going to be the biggest disaster imaginable.

Vanessa Smith ● 2149d

I would disagree Jayne. Over the last 4 years, on here and elsewhere I have been told, ad nauseam, that Leavers knew exactly what they were voting for. Ergo they voted for this. All of it. If it's a massive success, they get to crow & I will eat humble pie. The obverse obviously holds as well, although I won't be holding my breath for any signs of contrition.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2149d

So the fact that a leading supporter of Brexit is moving production to France is ok with you? Do you want to know why Remain supporters rub their hands with glee every time something goes wrong? It because we are being proved right about Brexit being a total s*** show. It because we are being proved right when we said that the government are liars, oven ready deal? Do me a favor! At least you get blue passports though, and something to do with fish, which lets face it the average bloke on the street could not care less about. At least until the Daily Heil started banging on about it anyway.

Guy Smith ● 2149d

I have just had to renew my passport.  It is black. Not a hint of blue.

Vivienne Cox ● 2149d

All jokes, gallows humour, snark and schadenfreude aside when you think about it, it is quite remarkable to consider that we are now second class citizens *in our own country*. Anyone with an Irish passport not only has indefinite leave to remain in the UK, (under a separate agreement, this doesn't hold for other EU passport holders) but also the right to live, work & retire in 30 other countries across Europe. Us? Just the one. Still, people knew what they were voting for.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2149d

Look at this this way Vanessa, you have something to moan about for the rest of your life.

Janice Evans ● 2149d

Jayne, a lot of elderly people vote how their family want them to.

Janice Evans ● 2149d

Look at it this way Janice - when it all goes pear-shaped - and it will - the likes of you will drag the rest of us down with you after your misguided opinion.

Vanessa Smith ● 2149d

You are eager to prove everything wrong Vanessa and always will.

Janice Evans ● 2149d

Guy, many people living abroad vote for Brexit, so what should we dowe cannot demand they all come back, many abroad may have vote remain. People and business will go where they want regardless of how they voted.

Janice Evans ● 2149d

"People and business will go where they want regardless of how they voted."People and business will go where they can, based their desires, on the amount of effort required for that and on the financial and other consequences of the move.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2149d

Janice, you seem to be unaware of the fact that UK citizens who had lived in other EU countries for 15 years couldn't vote either Leave or Remain. 700,000 UK passport-holders were denied a vote in a referendum with enormous implications for them.

Robert Fish ● 2149d

There were British people in places like France and Spain who did vote leave. But let's be clear about a few things concerning these voters. They were in the minority. The majority voted to remain as they grasped the implications for the UK and most specifically for them; they had awareness to realise that being a national of a "third country" would not be beneficial. The minority who did vote leave were unable to grasp these issues. This is demonstrated now as people (for sure leave voters as those who voted remain understood what would occur) are complaining about the demand from France, Spain, etc that these UK nationals change their driving licenses to local ones, present detailed documented evidence to obtain a residency permit, evidence that they are fully paying tax locally and so on. Their vocal complaints (misinformed often, I've seen claims these demands are driven by Barnier) show that many never understood the consequences of what they were voting for.Of course, the leave promoters claim that all leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for, the specific non-deal they wanted and all the consequences for the UK and its citizens were fully understood in 2016. How could anyone doubt that claim?

Alan Clark ● 2149d

They voted to leave and we have left.

Janice Evans ● 2149d

People voted to leave, just. Johnson said it will be a win-win situation, that we will be better off out than in. Not the same but better. I’m not quite seeing the benefits so far but lots of companies are moving out just like the announcements yesterday. Thousands of jobs lost so far.  Fresh food up by 5% in January and bigger hikes of something like 40% in prices of food imported from the EU. Overall,  a price rise in food of between 10% to 15%.  three weeks away.Johnson said that no country in its right mind would leave the Single  Market and look what’s happening. And we intend to break international law but because it’s the UK , it’s ok. We’ve had  our rights to freedom of movement removed - young people will never thank us limiting their horizons. No one is rubbing their hand with glee. This is, in my opinion, a devastating and retrograde step which we have no one to blame but ourselves. It is deeply worrying that the country will suffer over the next few years for seemingly no benefit unless you are a disaster capitalist and will make billions.

Stewart Jones ● 2149d

So who'll really be making the money?https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/04/disaster-capitalism-tory-right-brexit-roll-back-state

Philippa Bond ● 2149d

Well I for one hope those who are rubbing their hands because they think they've been proved right, eventually are proved wrong.  Why - because it's in all our interests that this works.  So now it's happening it might be a good idea to stop gloating.

Maggie Dodge ● 2149d

If we are in a world where the Guardian is taken as gospel, we are indeed in trouble.The dice is cast. The Remainers are about to be part of the new process whereby we shall see whether the majority of voters were right or wrong. To date, many Remainers continue to exhibit bitterness of the decision to leave. Time will tell (or perhaps objectors may wish to leave and become residents of the EU).

Jeffrey Cope ● 2149d

Alan, you really had no idea what you were voting for, only time would tellthe outcome of remain which most could see coming,

Janice Evans ● 2149d

yepOnly the Guardian or MSN covering thisId give it a ?

Julian Pavey ● 2149d

Thanks for directly addressing me. Thus you deserve a direct answer. You say “you really had no idea what you were voting for”. So I assume you are not picking on my specific ignorance. (I hope not.) If I my slightly re-phrase you intended to explain that none of us knew what we were voting for. Well, that raises many issues. Least of all the validity of the vote. So thanks for that clarification. It’s what I’ve been trying to explain for 4 years. Your second point is beyond opaque. Even for you. Please explain. In the meantime thanks for confirming that the claim by the leave campaigners that the 2016 vote reflects their hard Brexit is pure rubbish. Ta

Alan Clark ● 2149d

Most people when they talk of sovereignty mean the effective control over the destiny of the nation by Parliament. But today we have entered into many Treaties and military alliances which limit our freedom of individual action. More and more we are becoming dependent for our future, on action in concert with other nations. To enter into commercial obligations and treaties is an exercise of sovereignty, not a derogation from it. Under treaties we accept obligations which we ourselves help to formulate. Sovereignty and independence are not ends in themselves. It is no good being independent in isolation if it involves running down our economy and watching other nations outstrip us in both trade and influence.I'd really like to hear from anybody who still believes in Brexit what they think of the above.

Francis Rowe ● 2149d

Janice,I suspect that Alan voted to remain. As did I.I feel I had a very reasonable understanding of what I was voting for, namely a continuation of our membership of the EU with all the associated benefits and drawbacks derived there from.Please don't think that those who voted remain didn't know what they voted for.At the time, after the result, I said I really hoped that I was wrong and that my fears were unfounded. I still really hope that the result of the referendum isn't the bad outcome that I thought it was at the time, but at time of writing some four years later there is still little to persuade me that this is the case.And yes, it might be petty, but there is a bit of me that is happy to see the outrage from Brexit supporting media about the fact that UK citizens can only spend 90 days every 180 days in the EU.My perspective is that I didn't vote for any of this, but you reap what you sow ...

Andrew Jones ● 2149d

Thank you for that succinct and enlightening explanation of the myth of true UK sovereignty following Brexit.

Alan Clark ● 2149d

I had a giggle at commentator David Allen Green who said that the UK has moved from a free trade arrangement that covered all of Europe to a free trade arrangement that doesn't even cover all of the UK.

Michael Robinson ● 2149d

The words are not mine. To me they show why the notion that we are taking back control is a complete falsehood and they completely undermine the rationale for Brexit.

Francis Rowe ● 2149d

FR > "To me they show why the notion that we are taking back control is a complete falsehood and they completely undermine the rationale for Brexit."This morning's interview with Foreign Secretary Raab on the Today programme was very interesting. He was unable to give definitive answers to several questions because "it depends on what the EU does". Reality bites.On the topic of Northern Ireland, he came up with a real gem: he denied that there would be any "additional controls" on trade between GB and NI, but agreed that there would be "incremental controls". Ouch!

John Whitworth ● 2149d

The Conservative & Unionist Party to give its full name will be responsible for Scottish independence and the reunification of Ireland.England & Wales GDP will be reduced by 10% minimum.Northern Ireland will flourish in the EU as Ireland has, if Scotland can achieve anything remotely what Ireland has they will enjoy an economic boost you could only dream of.I'm not sure why I'm so anti Brexit when there are clearly so many benefits, ah yes, I forgot I live in England where we shall be diminished in every way.  The days of challenging France as the 5th largest economy on the planet will be ended for good, are loss will be the EU's long term gain.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2148d

The only value of sovereignty in the modern world is how you spend it away in negotiations. To have it for the sake if it is useless like having money in your pocket you can never spend, it might make you feel good but doesn't achieve anything.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2148d

Quite right. We have become a supplicant nation, not able to choose a beneficial fate.

Ken Munn ● 2148d

Alan, I said you had not idea what you were voting for, you may think you knew but no one knows the outcome of either remain or Brexit, most of youNever wanted the Euro so you were never fully committed.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

First time ever I agree with James O'Brien, or he agrees with me, saying its not a good idea to gloat about things going wrong with Brexit, because it will hurt us all.

Maggie Dodge ● 2148d

Andrew, no one knows the outcome of what they have voted for eitherRemain or leave, Alan likes to twist things to his own understanding which he must think goes in his favour in some way,  whatever happens I want things to work for us all and do think it will take a lot longer than a few years, we have had a lot going on with the Virus etc.,

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Impossible. Johnson says we will "prosper mightily" from a no deal brexit & he's never wrong. I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the sunlit uplands.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2148d

I'd a reasonably clear grasp of the implications of a Brexit vote. A withdrawal was always going to messy and problematic and a new trade deal with the EU was always going to be very hard to achieve and likely (if we got one) limited in its scope. See many of my posts back in 2016. Do not claim I did not know.I do not doubt if we'd voted remain then the EU would have continued to propose further alignment and integration of its member countries. The difference is this:With this continued EU alignment, each step is debated and voted on by member states. Each country gets to shape or veto these arrangements.With Brexit we have no say on the agreement. It looks like a no deal result this month. That was not on the table in the 2016 referendum so not a single person can say they voted for that (a very few might genuinely state that in 2016 they anticipated and welcomed such an outcome - but this was not what was voted for).That looks a lot like we have forgone democracy in favour of an imposed and not voted for outcome.

Alan Clark ● 2148d

Second point to Janice. You state "no one knows (knew) the outcome of wither remain or Brexit". Thus you confirm that the referendum was about a highly complex issue with utter lack of clarity of the implications of in or out. This was not a referendum about a path the UK ended up taking - this was simply a vox-pop on a nationwide scale on what did we all have a gut feeling about back in 2016. You absolutely confirm this.

Alan Clark ● 2148d

Alan, no one know the future so stop twisting what I said, not replying again.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Anyone that voted Brexit were living on cloud nine, the EU were never going to give us a deal......fisheries is a red herring excuse the pun and easily solved if the EU negotiate in good faith. Requiring any country outside the EU to sign up to all their standards is also a non starter and the EU know that. So they have put deliberate obstacles in the way knowing full well we can’t agree to them. Same applies to the judiciary. So there you have it well done to all those that voted Brexit!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2148d

Stop talking nonsense to suit yourself, not responding again.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Slightly disappointed nobody fell into my cunning trap. The words on sovereignty above were from an address to the Finchley Conservatives by Margaret Thatcher.

Francis Rowe ● 2148d

Jayne, we left so get over it.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Isn't the fact that the EU wouldn't treat us fairly or with respect one of the reasons we left.  They are still doing it now, which reminds me why we had to leave.

Maggie Dodge ● 2148d

Spot on, Maggie they are showing their true colours.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

If we want to sell into the EU tariff-free, why on earth should we not be expected to meet the same standards as EU suppliers? In what way are we being treated unfairly. All this talk of being "punished" by the EU is just Johnson preparing the way for shifting blame for no-deal.

Robert Fish ● 2148d

You will always think that regardless of what happens.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

So Janice and friends show their true colours they didn’t know what they were voting for......probably doesn’t affect them so what do they care? Goods will be more expensive so those that can afford them are fine, many people will be worse off but what does Janice care about that, clearly not at all!

Jayne Thorburn ● 2148d

Jayne, if all you can do is copy Alan, don't bother.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Luckily my new Irish passport courtesy of my Dad remains Burgundy.I benefit from the best of both worlds but would happily give up this privilege for the old status quo.I wonder how many brexit voters will look back in 5 years and think the same?

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2148d

You are all still eaten up about losing the referendum, will leave you all to moan amongst yourselves as you are not in the least bit interested in understanding the posts.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Significant envy for your Irish passport. I have been desperately searching through my family tree for a recent Irish relative, but my antecedents remain stubbornly Scottish/Welsh. I can only hope that brexit means that Scotland leaves the UK, joins the EU and then I can pick up an EU passport that way.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2148d

I recall the triumphalism from Farage (and the money he made playing the currency markets on the night of the result) and the lies that were told in the run up to the referendum. Janice, it has already cost the country billions of pounds for what benefit? I accept that we have left but those that believe it was a huge mistake have every right to hold to account the politicians and Brexit supporters etc who quite blatantly lied during the campaign. All the things that are about to happen were put under the heading Project  Fear and remainers have been accused of not loving the country as much as leavers which is insulting. The country has become even more divided. And no one can tell us what the benefits are and as I said we have already lost billions.

Stewart Jones ● 2148d

MD > "Isn't the fact that the EU wouldn't treat us fairly or with respect one of the reasons we left."Once again, the CW4 forum has given me a glimpse into an alternate universe.In my universe, the UK enjoyed preferential treatment in the form of many opt-outs and a rebate on contributions to the EU budget. The UK was also a major player - the motor behind the creation and completion of the Single Market, and a champion of the eastward expansion of the Union.

John Whitworth ● 2148d

Indeed, John.  This alternate world-view is fascinating.  There was an earlier section of this thread asking for a Brexiter to comment on their notion of Sovereignty but, as usual, nobody stepped up to the plate so we just have to speculate.  I have always thought that the U.K. had a very powerful and privileged position within the E.U. yet the way Brexiters talk about it, it’s as if we were under the heel of the old Soviet Union.Another odd thing is that before 2016 Europe was way down most people’s list of political priorities and yet over the last four years it has been elevated to the status of an obsession.  Why?  What changed?Finally, if leaving the E.U. is such a great thing, where is the rejoicing?  It’s as if Brexiters know deep down that it’s actually going to be a bit grim so better to keep their heads down.

Alastair Banton ● 2148d

It looks like Boris and the blowhards have finally had their bluff called, He's got a horrible choice now, He secretly knows no deal is a disaster but knows capitulation and He's political tory toast! If no deal was so innocuous why was He running to Brussels last night?I don't think it was for a nice fish supper with Ursula.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2148d

Here is the problem you have - I am not twisting your words. I am simply taking what you put down in black and white and replaying those claims to you. Now if you do not want to be misconstrued then please be clearer in your posts. I just take what you post and present that back to you.

Alan Clark ● 2148d

Thanks, it is a massively arrogant assumption by the leave voters that people who disagreed with them should remain quiet when the remain predictions come true. Rather, I think it is essential that we highlight the lies and dumb notions of the leave voters posted over the last 4 years. We should learn from mistakes rather than brush them under the carpet (of sovereignty).Remember "they need us more than we need them" or "the German car manufacturers won't let the UK market go" or "the UK is such a strong global economy that the EU will come crawling for an agreement". All wrong.And those who supported remain told you so.

Alan Clark ● 2148d

And we would do well to remember that London voted to remain. I recall Farage saying during previous local council elections that UKIP never expected to do well in London as it draws more qualified and educated people to it and they were unlikely to support Brexit. We have disgraced ourselves as we entered the discussions with the EU in bad faith. All very predictable. Johnson and his lot will blame the EU for no deal. And we shall break international law but that’s ok .We had a fantastic deal within the EU - no euro, non-Schengen, and we were major players . Now, a ‘third’ country. For no good reason. It’s very depressing.

Stewart Jones ● 2148d

Thanks to those who voted out, they haven’t got a clue about what our role and benefits were by being a member of the  EU, it wasn’t perfect but a much better alternative to being out. So thank you Janice and & friends 👏👏👏👏

Jayne Thorburn ● 2148d

Hi Jayne. Great post. But for me a bit confused. Previously I’d have tagged you as anti-EU. Did I misunderstand you, or superimpose my prejudice onto your previous posts? This last post seems to say Brexit is shite. I know. It is. It’s a shite-ville-disaster-omni-bollocks-mess.

Alan Clark ● 2148d

No idea where you got that view I was/am a remainer, I have done business for many years across Europe, still do,  so i do understand some of the complexities of the EU. As I say it isn’t perfect but on balance we should have stayed in. Clearly most people I know who do pan-European  business think so too. It should never have been left to the country to vote because most people didn’t understand the pros/cons of the EU,  it is complicated. Clearly the truth that we understood back then is coming home to roust. Those that voted out on the whole can not back up their decision with any reasoned debate hence the nastiness.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2148d

Jayne, you are so childish, grow up.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Janice, who is the childish one? Clearly hit a nerve sorry about that, truth hurts.......as I said you can not discuss or debate the reason you voted out, that’s sad.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2148d

You carry on and show yourselves up let everyone see how nasty some remainers are.  I would vote leave again and so would all the others.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Janice you are the one being nasty and childish, if you don’t know why you voted out there is no shame in that you are in good company with millions of others. You voted for this so you can’t complain, remainer are not complaining we have to accept it no matter how much damage your vote has done to the country, unemployment, higher prices, smaller economy.........

Jayne Thorburn ● 2148d

I would vote out again, stop trolling me.

Janice Evans ● 2148d

Sorry Janice,I beg to differ. I voted (and I know I sided with the losing side) for certainty that some of the things we had as a result of the EU wouldn't disappear. A couple of examples ... that workers rights protected by the EU wouldn't be under threat, the ability of our students to study across the EU, visa free visits to Europe, participation in the Galileo satellite programme as an equal partner, uninhibited access to the largest trading block in the world ... these were all considerations that persuaded me that I should vote remain.Of course it wasn't all Milk and Honey but things I considered important were pretty much guaranteed to stay if the outcome of the referendum was to remain.I knew what I was voting for.In contrast, those that voted to leave obviously knew they were voting to leave the EU but beyond that?They didn't vote specifically for any particular part of trade deal (but it was touted as being the 'easiest trade deal in history' apparently if I remember correctly).In essence those who voted leave, voted to leave and were keeping their fingers crossed that it would all work out to the UK's advantage.As for Coronavirus ... It's been an awful reminder of the power of nature, and while there are plenty of things that could have been done better, I'm one of those who thinks that anyone in government regardless of political creed would have made mistakes.However, if COVID19 hadn't happened, I don't think we (the UK) have been in a much better situation than we find ourselves in presently.

Andrew Jones ● 2148d

Jayne, it's pointless engaging with her

Carl Wynne ● 2147d

Jayne is quite right. People who voted to leave might have thought they knew  what they were voting for but there was no clear vision at all. Was it in or out of the single market? Was it about control of borders (which we always had). Passport colour? A bit of xenophobia?Leavers were told that leaving the EU would improve things. Not just stay the same but get better.  Things have already got worse - the impact on jobs, the billions spent. Kent is a lorry park. 50,000 additional customs officers will be needed. Our rights to move freely within Europe just taken away from us. Being told how long within a given period we can go to Europe. Limiting opportunities for the next generation. And the sense that we have become very inward looking, a bit nastier and certainly less important on the world stage. So, Janice, why did you vote to leave the EU?

Stewart Jones ● 2147d

Andrew, in my post to Alan I said you might think you know what you are voting for but in reality no one knows the outcome of remain or leave unless you are psychic things change on a regular basis and as I said No one seem to want the Euro so not committed to the E.U which sends out a mixed message.  If you cannot understand what I said or you are just another disgruntled remainer I don't know but I'm not entering into Brexit discussions as we have left.  I'm pleased we left and so obviously don't agree and have not change my mind.  Keep twisting what I said and persisting with it is not going to get you anywhere and I refuse to be bullied by those that cannot accept losing the referendum.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

As I just said to Andrew I refuse to be bullied by some disgruntled remainers. I'm glad we left and I have not change my mind so obviously there is nothing to discuss.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

Asking a simple question is not bullying.

Alastair Banton ● 2147d

It bullying and trolling.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

No, repeatedly posting and arguing about something that you know nothing about and when you think there is ‘nothing to discuss’, THAT’S trolling.

Alastair Banton ● 2147d

I never entered a discussion, said you all sound like Trump.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

Yeah, as Carl said.

Alastair Banton ● 2147d

Yeah, well I just went through my posts and I had not entered any Discussion on Brexit, it's just you lot bullying as usual.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

For me Janice manages to encapsulate much of the leave camp. She is proud and happy to have voted leave. At the time she had no idea what she was actually voting for and that is perfectly fine. She follows some of what is going now but does not really understand the details or the consequences - and that is also fine. She prefers not to get into a discussion about why she voted leave or why she still thinks leave is a good thing because she is unable to articulate why she holds these views.

Alan Clark ● 2147d

Clever clogs you are not Alan as persisting will get you nowhere.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

Asking you to explain a decision you are very pleased with  and would repeat and have put on a public forum is not bullying, Janice.I think it is very interesting when you say you are glad we have left. All I’m asking is why you are glad when you consider the billions it has cost, job losses and a damaged economy. If you consider that a price worth paying, what actually has been achieved?

Stewart Jones ● 2147d

And you never expected any problems?  You have been waiting for them, come back in 5 years and I will be happy to listen.  This is old ground you will never know the reason people voted to leave and whatever happens no one has the right to ask.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

Let's assume the hardcore ERG get their wish and we leave with no deal.The first thing on the governments agenda is going to be negotiating a deal with the EU as just a 10% reduction in trade with the EU will cost us 30 billion PA in lost sales.What should this new deal look like?

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2147d

Janice, it's pointless engaging with him.

Richard Greenhough ● 2147d

And then there were 2, hey Dick, would you care to share with us why you voted to leave?Great new deal with China?Superduper greatest deal ever with Donald J Duck?Don't be shy there must be loads of great compelling reasons.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2147d

This conversation was never meant to become a witch-hunt I was genuinely interested in why anyone would vote leave, clearly they don’t know or if they do too embarrassed to say. Oh well as Janice says let’s wait 5 years and see our country go to ruin, mass unemployment, no more free movement, pay for visas, higher prices, less overseas investment, higher taxes,  the list goes on.......,scary people had a vote on a subject they have little or no understanding.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2147d

Jayne, why don't you prove how intelligent you are and let it go.

Janice Evans ● 2147d

CDM > "Great new deal with China?"According to the PM, leaving the EU without a trade agreement still affords the UK "all sorts of amazing opportunities". Unfortunately, no further detail is offered.I have just finished reading today's blog from Dr Richard North, the veteran anti-EU and firmly pro-Brexit campaigner. It concludes:"We are, I’m afraid, on the edge of madness, with a madman on the bridge, and the media asleep at the helm. No good can come of this."http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87818

John Whitworth ● 2147d

Do you think, even in Johnson's badly wired brain, it's beginning to sink in that Brexit Is A Very Bad Idea?

Ken Munn ● 2147d

Yes Richard, just that they are premature with their celebrations 🎉

Janice Evans ● 2147d

Let’s pray Boris blinks first to find a compromise on fisheries, compliance and future standards, easy done compromise on 5 years. Right now we really need to be able to trade with the EU for obvious reasons without tariffs, customs paperwork and delays for the greater good of our economy, people’s livelihoods, investment etc.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2147d

Janice,I don't believe I am twisting or have twisted your words, and I don't believe I am bullying you either though I'm not sure if you are suggesting that I have bullied you. Please look at what I have written in reply to some of your posts and you'll see this is the case. If you disagree then please quote back at me what I have said that you think twists your words or is bullying you. I still maintain (and I believe this) that the prospective outcome if the vote had been for 'remain' was far more predictable. We would have had a trade deal with our most important and geographically closest trading partners for one thing. Of course things change, when you vote in the general election for a party you don't know how things are going to pan out, but would you really say that you don't know what you are voting for in a General Election?For me voting 'leave' was a vote for a leap into the unknown, except that many of those urging us to vote leave tried to persuade us that it was going to be smooth sailing. And yes, it was also a vote to leave the EU which we have already done, so I don't question the certainty of that outcome as a result of the referendum. It was always been about what follows on as a result of leaving the EU.  The classic quote for me was Theresa May's "Brexit means Brexit". Three words that to me sum up (ironically) the mess we have put ourselves in. You said "you really had no idea what you were voting for, only time would tell" - I happen to disagree with that assessment and have explained why I think the way I do. You think otherwise, and of course it's not up to me to tell you how to think, and I wouldn't try. All I've done is tried to advance reasons that might strike a chord with not only you but also others reading this forum. By the sounds of it you're not convinced and that's fine. None of this is twisting your words or bullying you though.I didn't follow your reference to the Euro by the way. There are other countries in the EU that don't use the Euro e.g. Denmark and Sweden.Finally, I'm not a disgruntled remainer any more. I was very upset about the result four years ago, but the result is what it is. The voters who participated in the referendum have made the bed that we all have to lie in for years to come and that's the way it is. I've accepted the result, I genuinely hope things turn out for the best, but that doesn't mean that I still don't think that the country would have been better served and in a better place if the result had gone the other way four years ago.My view is 'Que sera,sera'.

Andrew Jones ● 2147d

KM > "Do you think, even in Johnson's badly wired brain, it's beginning to sink in that Brexit Is A Very Bad Idea?"The 'victory' press conference with Gove, Stuart and Johnson on 24 June 2016 was a very sombre affair. It was more like a funeral than a joyful celebration. I think he knew it was a bad idea from the off.

John Whitworth ● 2147d

Scary indeed, it's just like the outrage over us being booted out of the Galileo network, those vengeful EU people making us pay rather than understanding it was the UK who insisted you had to be a full member to participate.We are always expecting to be treated differently by the EU to our advantage.

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2147d

It is madness. No one said it was going to be crap for the first 5 years. And how do we know it’s just five years? If I had voted to leave then I would be furious that I had been lied to by Vote Leave with its easy deals, they need is more than we need them, £350 million for the NHS and all that xenophobic nonsense about control of borders etc. Just lies. However, I would hope that once I’d realised that I’d been conned, I would change my mind and not cling on to my previous belief especially in the face of the exposure of Vote Leave’s lies.

Stewart Jones ● 2147d

"You were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off" comes to mind.Unfortunately they blew the whole bloody thing up!He looked like a bloke who has finally realised the enormity of the problem He has created, cave or catastrophe!

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2147d

I never believed that in the first place 😂😂😂 anyone that thought the EU would make this easy needs their heads examining......they are way more powerful than us......even more so know.....as I say let’s pray Boris blinks first.

Jayne Thorburn ● 2147d

Well,I didn’t either but because it was a such whipped -up and divisive referendum, some people will not change their minds whatever evidence is given  or even acknowledge that they made a mistake, often because the way they voted is rooted in exceptionalism, xenophobia and ,  in some cases, outright racism.

Stewart Jones ● 2147d

Well, leavers and remainers alike, we will all know how it pans out soon ... probably

Andrew Jones ● 2147d

Just slightly interested to hear how Johnson sells this utter failure of his as a success. Maybe thinks New Year’s Eve we’ll all be too jolly to notice.

Vivienne Cox ● 2147d

He is in a mire. He is pretending that he his the uber hard negotiator. Thus his work to pee on Wednesday evening dinner. Ooh, so so impressive (not). And he is pretending it’s all the fault of the EU. Kind of missing the blindingly obvious fact that they set their negotiating stall out day one. Johnson is a walking disaster. He is dumb and arrogant enough to take the UK out of the EU without a deal. And for those who applaud that approach let me ask you one simple question: in future months or years when the UK works out that a trade deal with our near neighbour is a good idea, who holds every card in that chat?

Alan Clark ● 2147d

But we have gunboats at the ready to protect fish who have freedom of movement because they are fish. But they have blue passports, don’t they because they are in our waters, is that right? Gosh. Such a muddle.

Stewart Jones ● 2146d

If there ever was a pathetic but dangerous act of a banana republic dictator then it’s Johnson sending in the warships. What a twat. What a seriously dangerous twat. Next he will be commissioning dreadnaughts. Anyone who voted for this arse should own up and apologise. We will accept your misjudgment with grace and sympathy.

Alan Clark ● 2146d

Let’s hope Macron offers a free holiday in the Med for all the fish currently shivering in the Channel and North Sea.

Vivienne Cox ● 2146d

'Jayne, you are so childish, grow up.'Yet another thoughful, insightful and intelligent contribution from one of the complete morons who have landed the rest of us in this absolute disaster. Cheers.

Vanessa Smith ● 2145d

Statement being sent out electronically at 1145 I hear.

Andrew Jones ● 2145d

Going the extra mile ... negotiations to continue in Brussels.

Andrew Jones ● 2145d

What a shambles from beginning to the end.

Stewart Jones ● 2145d

One imagines Boris, Michael are in touch with the ERG as we speak, they aren't budging Mark Francois, what shall we do?Dig trenches BorisWhat about you Hard Man Steve Baker?Let's just give'em a good kicking Boris, ave'it!Common Jacob what do you think?I don't give a F@@K Boris, I'm loaded and make loads of money regardless!Michael?What are you talking about? it was your idea, nothing to do with me.Boris  We're all F****d then?Yep that's about the size of it, But Bernard you're the Steering Group Chairman,Indeed I am but you didn't ask me where we were going. 

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2145d

...Depending on which commentator you listen to the Brexit deal is either 85% or 95% complete with only three matters (fish, playing fields, courts) to be resolved. Surely it's possible to sign off on the agreed areas and continue negotiating on the rest.

Ken Munn ● 2145d

nothing is agreed until its all agreed

Craig David Mcdowell ● 2145d

That way lies ruin

Ken Munn ● 2145d

As me ol' mum would have said ' them silly buggers need someone to knock their stupid heads together'.

Ken Munn ● 2145d

That's assuming they actually had any intention of making a deal in the first place - and I would take a lot of convincing that they ever really did, this as far as I can understand has been the ERG plan from the outset. As for all this B/S about sovereignty - as someone pointed out a few days ago from the EU - we are 27 sovereign states who are working together and one who doesn't want to. This is not about trade deals it is all about politics, and Johnson and Gove putting party before country.

Vanessa Smith ● 2145d

KM > "That way lies ruin"The EU (boo!) use this strategy, but it is also fundamental to how negotiations are organised by the WTO (hurray!).The WTO call it the principle of single undertaking: every item of a negotiation is part of a whole and indivisible package and cannot be agreed separately. "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed".

John Whitworth ● 2145d

😂😂😂😂 she has an unfortunate name I think it is called ‘care in the community’ 😂😂😂😉😉😉

Jayne Thorburn ● 2145d

I had previously thought that you were fairly well informed on such issues. The norm on these type of negotiations is that all needs to be in place and agreed or nothing is confirmed. Which actually makes sense. One might be dealing with a dodgy individual who says one thing, signs up to that thing- and then negates all that with a new claim. Or statute (internal markets bill). The EU are right to distrust Johnson and this government. Hence everything is in place or nothing is agreed. (Even then, with Johnson, after the agreement handshake I would be counting my fingers.) PS there won’t be an agreement imo

Alan Clark ● 2145d