Forum Topic

Chiswick Markets 3.0 and 4.0

There is an application pending for two more markets on Chiswick High Road. This time for "Cheese and Provisions" proposed for the third and fourth Sunday of each month.So now local businesses will have no parking available and local hospitality and food businesses will have this additional threat. Not to mention this will compete with the long-standing Chiswick Farmer's Market and all its good work on Dukes Meadow.Please respond to the application. As these things tend to be political, if you object then say so succinctly. Do not waffle as that is always skewed as support.https://lbhounslow.sharepoint.com/sites/InternetLinks/cs%26e-lic/Shared%20Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?id=%2Fsites%2FInternetLinks%2Fcs%26e%2Dlic%2FShared%20Documents%2FWebsite%20Applications%2FChiswick%20Cheese%20%26%20Provisions%20Market%2Epdf&parent=%2Fsites%2FInternetLinks%2Fcs%26e%2Dlic%2FShared%20Documents%2FWebsite%20Applications&p=true&originalPath=aHR0cHM6Ly9sYmhvdW5zbG93LnNoYXJlcG9pbnQuY29tLzpiOi9zL0ludGVybmV0TGlua3MvY3MmZS1saWMvRVQybm53UmV0S3RHcUhfMnBTenp5SmNCN0xqcXZtU05IaG9XcERmWU9XSHR6QT9ydGltZT0yMG82UHZDWjJFZw

David Lesniak ● 2152d41 Comments

Is someone trying to turn Chiswick into Notting Hill or Camden?  Isn't all these markets more dangerous in a pandemic?  I am sure shops and restaurants were told not to take cash because of the risk of contamination and cross contamination. Would anyone want to buy cheese from an open market stall in the high rd in the heat of summer?

Caroline Carney ● 2152d

This will only result in the destruction of established local traders and higher prices.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2152d

Jeffrey You're absolutely right, the market traders of these fairs are NOT local businesses and as I understand it our local businesses, independents and chains, are not only not seeing an uplift in business but a downturn ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2152d

I made a lovely video of it from my window, beautiful flowers, busy with shoppers, Christmas music and a pandemic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdYdmpwmQQM&ab_channel=ChristopherPoole

chris poole ● 2152d

Sadly, I was thinking the same earlier today. Those poor shops in Chiswick are losing sales, just to add to the damage of having to remain closed for months on end. Very unfair.

chris poole ● 2152d

David I agree with what you say and am more than happy to stick up for local businesses.  However, I'm having difficulty with the link you posted.  I just get a message saying my email is not registered with LBH Sharepoint directory (?!?). Is there another way to access the proposals and comment on them?

Marie Power ● 2152d

I agree these markets should be resisted.  They are being promoted by people who have little true understanding of local economics and community fabric and perhaps it is more about their egos.  The local traders are there seven days a week, twelve months of the year to serve the community and have local costs (rent/rates) every day of the year too.  Why should we be allowing pop ups and visiting businesses at markets to cream off local business. The "in-comers" are not local businesses - simply look at all the parked vans behind M&S today. It is disingenuous to suggest that such markets bring more trade to permanent businesses.

David Kerr ● 2152d

'It is disingenuous to suggest that such markets bring more trade to permanent businesses.'They bought some to Wyndhams Butchers today. We don't normally shop there, but on our way home from the flower market a rabbit, oxtail, mince, mustard and Chiswick Chilli Sauce found new owners.

Ken Munn ● 2152d

I have heard there is a problem with the link. This comes as no surprise.I emailed licensing directly to circumvent the "issue" and cced others involved in licensing and enforcement.licensing@hounslow.gov.uknicola.harbor@hounslow.gov.ukvictoria.walla@hounslow.gov.ukgabriella.giles@hounslow.gov.uk (approved the antiques market)And of course your local ward reps.To the point about the flower market vans occupying critical parking behind M&S all day - where are customers supposed to park that aren't visiting the flower market?  How about those vans use the parking lot at the Hogarth School to free up spaces for all traders and businesses?

David Lesniak ● 2152d

Ken, I really had no idea that riding a bike made you an expert on so many things, from urban design and transport planning to now it seems the future of the High Street. I am confused as I though the lobbyists were all about shop local, but it seems you only do so if there is a special event? Yet by all accounts you are now boycotting TGT, even though I assume you walked past the butchers as well on Saturday but chose not to go there?Also, to you comments on TGT and the 'stink', I posted the following on another thread:Ken Munn wants to transform TGT into a pedestrianised market. Why? Has he asked the local business? We have the flower market, an antique market, the farmers market at Dukes and stall at Chiswick House today. As David L posted, more markets will impact on local business. Where does the E3 go and how do people get to the busiest tube station in W4?Remember, the big iron bridge on TGT was built to enable traffic to cross the tube lines and connect the community. If you close it again, then you displace even more traffic on South Parade and add to queues there. PLus the gridlock on the High Road and shorter green phase add to the queues on TGT.I don't know where Ken lives but I bet its not on one of the roads that is seeing displaced traffic or already congested. Oh no. He wants to close roads and push traffic onto streets where other people live. So they can breathe the 'stink' he objects to.

Paul Green ● 2152d

David please could you verify the email address for Victoria Walla as my email was rejected.  I also cannot find any reference to her when I search the Hounslow websiteThank you

Mitra Alam ● 2151d

Apologies. Forgot the "s"Victoria.wallas@hounslow.gov.ukI Googles "chiswick cheese and provisions market application" which gets you to this: https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/info/20071/licensing/1503/pending_street_trading_applicationsScroll to the bottom (yesterday it was at the bottom) and you can click there. But that won't progress to where you can comment despite it saying it will. There is also a link to contact licensing directly. Since we've engaged with licensing since opening, I happen to have direct email addresses.

David Lesniak ● 2151d

I have already mailed licencing, this is really unfair toward  the businesses on the high road, and Dukes Meadows market.

Anette Megyaszai ● 2151d

I think having markets in our own market place is fantastic.  If anything, they increase footfall in local shops, as once people have visited the market they are likely to explore other shops in Chiswick.  Each themed market is only going to be here for one day a month.  I think it's what Chiswick needs: some sort of centre.  What's to stop local shops hiring a stall at the market?In Oxfam Books, when the first flower market was held, we put up a display of gardening books, which sold very well.

Lucy Chambers ● 2151d

"What's to stop local shops hiring a stall at the market?"Why on earth would our local independent businesses on CHR, TGT and DR want to increase their overheads, when they're already payingh high rents and rates ? Also it's worth throwing this into the mix that many independent Chiswick businesses say they're showing a decrease in trade on the Flower Market days and the majority are not local traders ! Perhaps trying doing some research instead of making inaccurate sweeping statements  ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2151d

Market stalls and charity shops may be all we have left at this rate.

Bruce Hammal ● 2151d

Move markets To Chiswick Business Centre

Jon morris ● 2151d

One day a month of a specialist market isn't going to destroy Chiswick small shops.  Lorraine, don't you ever visit towns outside London? Many have market days, and their stalls draw customers to the whole town. 

Lucy Chambers ● 2151d

Agree LucySadly this forum is now largely dominated by a small group of like-minded people whose sole purpose seems to be to complain about every initiative launched in Chiswick, rather than supporting or trying to contribute anything constructive.CHR has been jumping on market days so far, with cafes and restaurants busy and people out enjoying what Chiswick has to offer. Long may it continue.

Chris Jenkins ● 2151d

Lucy and ChrisI couldn’t agree more. If it brings outsiders into Chiswick, that can only be a good thing surely. Let’s move forward and not get stuck in nostalgia.

Georgina Flint ● 2151d

Pay attention, love. It's every weekend.Oxfam is a charity and thus rents and rates are significantly different then those for other businesses. Imagine how independents would thrive if overhead were that low and they could staff up with volunteers.What's to stop any of these markets from approaching local traders? Why should local traders have to spend for a stall?What's to stop these organizations from providing maps of local businesses? Some even represented they would but failed to deliver on that promise. Sadly, Chris, when market wardens forbid pedestrians a right of way to streets and shops, businesses suffer. Walking on Devonshire Road should not have to be a function of attending the Flower Market if all you want is to browse for Christmas gifts. And yet people are being told to walk down a different street. Listen more closely to what people are saying.Let's be honest, Lucy, if you gorge on cheese at a market are you going to trot on over to Bayley & Sage or Hack & Veldt for a slab of Gorgonzola?Fun fact: these markets use up parking behind M&S for those traders thus reducing further available parking for any customers of any other business. Organizers represent parking isn't needed but then use up what's left for themselves. Parking for them is necessary. Parking for others is not. It's a bit rich.It's also interesting to note the drop-off in trade from the first flower market. Initially single-yellow parking was still an option. But not now. Coincidence?And to your point about other market towns - let's take St Albans as an example seeing the organizer of the antiques market hails from there. Google "St. Albans parking" and see what pops up. The availability and distribution of that retail infrastructure is impressive. There exists no such infrastructure in Chiswick.The entire scope of offer needs to be facilitated at every opportunity.

David Lesniak ● 2151d

It’s the sour grapes club. Just ignore them. Misery loves misery.

Paul Campbell ● 2151d

Oh the utter irony ! Says the man who publicly stated he won't be giving certain local independent businesses his custom anymore - now't more mean spirited and miserable than that. Not to mention 'sour grapes' because these retailers don't agree with his views...

Loraine Pemberton ● 2151d

David, has replied to you, but I need to address your comment about visiting town outside of London who have regular markets, yes I do.For example my Mother lives in Moreton in Marsh where a very successful general market is held every Tuesday, but guess what the difference is between Moreton and Chiswick is ?Answer: Moreton has loads of free parking !

Loraine Pemberton ● 2151d

Nope. I won’t give businesses who promote an anti-cycling hate group my money. I still gladly shop at businesses who have a different view to me about road schemes.

Paul Campbell ● 2151d

You really need to get over your 'anti cycling' OCD, and spreading untruths, hate to disappoint you but nobody is anti cycling, just anti crazy, dangerous and badly implemented LTN's and cycle lanes

Loraine Pemberton ● 2151d

I note that those in favour of the markets completely ignore valid criticism of the markets. But accuse those people of not taking on board the positives. Two sides to every argument.

Maggie Dodge ● 2151d

Similarly, I won't visit Wetherspoons, or buy Dyson products. Embargoes are a long-established mechanisms, and are even used by governments and multi-national organisations.

Ken Munn ● 2151d

If you go to the cheese market you might well need a pint or a cup of tea at some point so you'll visit a local hostelry.  I still think the markets are great and bring a lot of life to Chiswick.  Every shop is in competition with every other shop.  Why are you not complaining about the existence of three daily market veg stalls on CHR plus a real and thriving greengrocers on TGT?  Chiswick can sustain them all and that's great. (I shop at them all too, so I think they are brilliant and we are lucky to have the choice.)Parking in CHR is inadequate normally but punters can get here on public transport, on foot, by your dreaded bikes.  We will have to agree to differ.

Lucy Chambers ● 2151d

I'm particularly looking forward to the antiques and vintage market.  I miss Chiswick Car Boot Sale (which I either walk to or catch the E3).  After visiting this I'll probably go to The Old Cinema and Strand Antiques too (if open and queue not too long), so the one won't put me off visiting the others.  The complaint about not being able to get into Devonshire Rd on market days: you're talking one day a week.  You can time your visits there on another day.  I hope the markets are successful, but if they are not they will be pulled no doubt.  Look at the ups and downs of the Acton market on Market Place.

Lucy Chambers ● 2151d

So Lucy don’t you think this market is going to take custom from the two antique markets already available to you . Why is a third necessary? When is it ever ok for salespeople to stop pedestrian walking down a public thoroughfare.

Maggie Dodge ● 2151d

I've made this point before but I think what is missing from this debate is a representative voice for the Chiswick traders. Lots of people who don't actually appear to own shops in the area are telling us what the impact of the markets on trade has been - some saying it is good, some saying it is bad. However, other than David Lesniak, we aren't really hearing from a range of business owners in Chiswick. I know many of them do read this forum and have strong views.They are discouraged from speaking out because they don't want to get on the wrong side of the council or incur a boycott from some cyclists. The lack of an association makes them voiceless and vulnerable. If their position was stated as a group then it would be impossible to target individual businesses.

Mark Evans ● 2151d

No I really don't think this market will detract from the other antiques venues.  We're talking one day a month of random stalls as opposed to venues with curated collections that are open every day. I think (the invisible) online shopping antiques/vintage sites are much more of a threat to local antiques shops.

Lucy Chambers ● 2151d

QUOTE DAVID L :-  “Sadly, Chris, when market wardens forbid pedestrians a right of way to streets and shops, businesses suffer. Walking on Devonshire Road should not have to be a function of attending the Flower Market if all you want is to browse for Christmas gifts..”Yup!  I'm very pro-markets but what David says above is fundamental, should never have happened and cannot continue.  Wardens cannot be allowed this sort of authority.  Access to all open shops, obviously including the High Road, must be a core essential of market life.However, at around two o'clock on Sunday we strolled through the market and then took a right and wandered up Devonshire Road.  Nobody attempted to stop us.  And all the shops seemed to be thriving from the increased footfall.  So maybe this edict didn't last all day.  Maybe it was a mistake from just one warden.  Whatever,  the position must be clarified.

Stuart Kerr ● 2150d

I'm assuming the one way walking system is a temporary anti-virus precaution, and I agree that this Sunday it was awkward to get to a particular shop that was embedded in the market zone, but that won't be for ever. Bloggers elsewhere complained about insufficient marshalling at a previous market so now it's been upgraded to become, according to others, excessive!  And to think we could have avoided this problem by making the whole service road a cycle route!

Peter Evans ● 2150d

Facts. These markets will be running on 4 Sundays a month. The usual routine of W4ers on  Sunday is breakfast in CHR and a stroll around the shops. Stroll around the shops and lunch in CHR or off it with friends and family. Every Sunday will see CHR packed with traffic looking for parking spaces and increasing street level pollution.  Street markets are a nightmare for the elderly and disabled as they are told they cannot use the roads which are shorter to and from their homes. Food markets attract rats and mice leaving resident businesses to deal with it. At a time when the businesses in Chiswick are their most vulnerable is not the time to bring in massive competitors.  Chiswick is popular because of it's small shops and the quality of them.  It is popular for it's range of very good restaurants. The very reason W4 is popular could be damaged in the worst way by losing the small traders.  I love markets. Brentford Market, Shepherds Bush Market, Kingston Market and Feltham Market were all visited regularly on Saturdays and actually brought people from outside their area's without damaging local businesses because they were static and not in the town center's apart from SBM which was there before most of the town.  The car boot sale is also popular for the same reason.  Any street market will be in unregulated competition with car boot sales and other charities in and around it affecting money going to those charities.  It is only a large charity operation that can run these things.  Why should a local small charity have to pay a bigger charity for a stall?  All the positives are true but the negatives in this case mean serious damage to the local environment and a loss of what makes CHR the place it is. People have had a lot to say about the traffic calming measures locally.  I listen to my carers who travel around Chiswick.  Their movements are restricted by the traffic making them late for urgent calls. They were late running on both flower market days due to the amount of people queuing and the increase of cars.  They give people their vital medications and any change in traffic or road use directly affects the care they give.  All of them hate the traffic calming measures and most of them walk!

Caroline Carney ● 2150d

Although I am not able any longer to drive and shop in Chiswick Hi Rd and environs (TGT and Devonshire Rd) because of traffic jams and lack of parking, I fully support our local businesses.  Of course these market traders must harm our local shops and delis.  Unless the powers that be are able to ban or lower the rents, rates and other overheads of our local businesses, I feel these markets should not be permitted, especially this latest one.  They are not local firms - that has to be Chiswick's main concern in addition to the Covid distancing of course.

Jennifer Selig ● 2150d

Caroline, I also love the Markets although must admit not visit Chiswick Flower Market as yet due to the virus.  Thought offering a stall to shop keepers would overcome any loss of business but never realise they would have to pay for them.  I wondered about the parking before the Flower Market open as the stall holders would need them to be fairly close by, not saying shops are not being affected but if they are not taking a stall then itwill affect some of them because people prefer to shop outside during the pandemic.  It's difficult to make a fair assessment during a Pandemic and do think a stall should be free to local shop keepers if possible as they have had such a terrible year.

Janice Evans ● 2150d

Stuart, I agree. These events are still finding their feet in difficult circumstances and if mistakes are made, they need to be addressed. After the inaugural market, the usual suspects were up in arms about the lack of marshalling. The organizers responded and now it seems the balance may need to be revisited.Clearly once we are all vacc'ed up then access can be a whole lot easier.

Chris Jenkins ● 2150d

Mark, do think you are spot on but seems no one willing to take theInitiative.

Janice Evans ● 2150d

"Parking in CHR is inadequate normally but punters can get here on public transport, on foot, by your dreaded bikes"So if we agree parking is inadequate why then are you supportive of more and more of it being removed? Less of  an inadequacy doesn't make it better. It makes it more inadequate. Simple.FYI - I never said I dreaded bikes nor did I ever say anything with "hate" in it. But thanks to both you and Paul Campbell for feeble attempts at painting me in an unflattering light. Unfortunately for you, the camera loves me...If I may take a moment to be utterly queer I would like to quote one of my favorite all time musical lyrics courtesy of Tim Rice. It goes a little something like this:Whip up your hate in some tottering stateBut not here, dearIs that clear, dear?

David Lesniak ● 2150d