Forum Topic

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/nov/24/brexit-capitalism

Is this what we were expecting?

Philippa Bond ● 2164d10 Comments

yes

Cecile Parfitt ● 2164d

An interesting article.  It always seemed clear to me that Brexit was a symptom of a civil war within the Conservative party but this paints a bigger picture, and a persuasive one.

Alastair Banton ● 2164d

It is a George Monbiot article, his political views ossified in the 1970s and most of his writings are nothing more than juvenile musings on why capitalism is awful.  He is of course a champagne socialist having attended a private boarding school (not his fault you do not pick your parents) and Oxford University.His views on rewilding on the other hand are actually interesting and worth reading

Justin Stephenson ● 2164d

He tends to divide the rest of the world into not as clever as him but well meaning and not as clever as him but evil.This particular piece is a trite, simplistic view of what happened which ignores some basic facts. Most of British industry and the City of London were avidly against Brexit other than a few mavericks. There was in reality a strong consensus within what is left of British capitalism that what is happening is very bad.The main driving force for Brexit has always been the geriatric and reactionary membership of the Conservative party who delivered power to opportunists at a time when there was no effective opposition.

Francis Rowe ● 2164d

Ah, the old champagne socialist criticism. I thought that had been soundly slapped a good while ago. You must have missed it. Let me help.The supposed criticism of champagne socialist goes something like: person has money, person enjoys benefits of money (might be a house in Islington but drinking champagne has a ring to it), person supports Labour. Hence, this is where it takes a peculiar turn, this person is in some way a fraud. Do please explain how. Is there an earning limit on which way you vote?The reality is: person has money, person enjoys benefits of money, person has sufficient awareness to realise that not everyone has had the benefits they have (family, education, connections, whatever), person sees the inequality in the world and is willing to see their take home earnings reduced by higher taxation, person supports Labour. So champagne socialism is actually praise, not criticism.I agree however that Mr Monbiot can have a dubious views. But here, a view that Brexit has been foisted on the country by people who would benefit (that, to be clear is not going to be 99% of the population) has some merit.

Alan Clark ● 2164d

A champagne socialist is someone who can afford the economic privations of a Labour government without it significantly affecting their lifestyle. In most cases they have little or no idea of the experiences of the genuine working class.

Richard Greenhough ● 2164d

You're quite a joker, Richard. Of course, there never are economic privations under a Conservative government!

Robert Fish ● 2164d

‘Most of British industry and the city of London were avidly against Brexit apart from a few Mavericks.  There was in reality a strong consensus within what is left of British capitalism that what is happening is very bad.’I’m sure Monbiot would agree.  This is surely what he means by ‘housetrained capitalism’.  And I think his claim that millionaire donors of what he calls the ‘warlord capitalist’ persuasion had some influence on the referendum result would be hard to argue.  These are the ‘opportunists’ that  got the vote of the conservative voters that you colourfully describe.  But personally I wouldn’t agree they were the ‘main’ driving force.  The picture is more complex.

Alastair Banton ● 2164d

"The picture is more complex..."You can say that again Alastair.  And as for the "main driving force" - we actually know where they got their  petrol from - courtesy of the regional and northern election results..

Stuart Kerr ● 2164d

I recall that you and I had this very same exchange a couple of years ago. It will conclude in the same way this time around. And again you fail to grasp the principle issue. Your new argument is about the (your claims, not mine) that Labour governments deliver economic privations. Interesting. One thinks of the Thatcher created economic problems of the 80s. Or the Cameron era austerity challenges. And in both you are right - the poorer classes suffered most. And wealthy Labour voters no doubt suffered less. But still empathised. To their credit. What would you have them do?Ah, you demand working class credentials of them. Why? What strange notions you have. One can empathise or sympathise or support without direct experience. One can also notice landed, bequeathed, un-earned, under-taxed and vastly unequal wealth and see a problem that needs addressed. Whatever ones personal earnings.

Alan Clark ● 2163d