Forum Topic

Hartington Road - CPZ - ANPR - WSP

Had some info back from Hounslow on the technology behind the ANPR system being used in Grove Park and TGT etc. It’s called WSP Taranto. It could easily scale to include all the CPZ in Grove Park. It’s the same software that Hammersmith and Fulham use.  In H&F they automatically add all CPZ users to the LTN exemption list and also include DVLA data for off road parking. WSP Taranto is used across London, and also by DVLA themselves. Really begs the question of why Hounslow decided to create a brand new database for Hartington Road.  I think they could have used the existing CPZ database and devised a much more useful system that stopped rat running, but allowed locals to use local roads such as Harvard Hill, Thames Rd etc.. In any event, I’ve asked them these questions, will see what the reply is.https://www.wsp.com/-/media/Service/UK/Document/WSP-Traffic-Support-Brochure-2020.pdf

Russell Pearson ● 2175d32 Comments

I have claimed elsewhere on another thread that data extraction of residents living in Grove Park would be easy to add even to another database. The process can be automated if necessary. Of course, those who park "off road" would need to submit their data which they will anyway. However, given the benefits accruing to them I doubt this would be overly onerous.Any process to achieve this should not be expensive (and would be more than covered by the tickets issued in TG if the surmises of revenue gained are correct).Please don't let them fob you off with any wiffle-waffle.For those who doubt my motives, they remain the same.I support the idea of a safer neighbourhood. Adding LTN exemptions via the current database fixes that problem (as it would even if another database is used).It also gets rid of the necessity of having the daft restrictions. in Staveley Road/Park Road.It stops others living outside the Grove Park area making unhelpful suggestions and attempting to over-ride the wishes of the residents.

John Hickman ● 2175d

Should only need 1 database. WSP Taranto is the system that milked £1M+ out of TGT. Would be easy to add an exemption list to it. Could even add Ealing residents too, they also use WSP Taranto. TGT, Fishers Lane, Grove Park - sorted, if there was the will.

Russell Pearson ● 2175d

If the point of these schemes is to reduce through traffic they should apply to all traffic, rather than introducing selective privilege, exceptions and confusion.

Peter Evans ● 2175d

Not in Fulham “ The aim is to stop non-H&F residents rat running through residential streets.”

Russell Pearson ● 2175d

But then the Council wouldn't be able to let the Brentford Football Club parking in Strand on the Green.

Cecile Parfitt ● 2175d

Database not required.If you drive into the area and out of the area on a different road within 15-20 minutes you are 'charged'. If you drive out on the same road as you came in on you are not 'charged' - this is for deliveries, taxis etc.

Jonathan Simpson ● 2175d

Can't beat having big permit/licence stickers on our windscreens!

Peter Evans ● 2175d

With the timed system, there’s still a database which records numbers, times, issues PCNs. There’s just no exemption list.

Russell Pearson ● 2175d

Peter, you said 'If the point of these schemes is to reduce through traffic they should apply to all traffic, rather than introducing selective privilege, exceptions and confusion.'But that is the heart of the issue. What is the point of these schemes. What is through traffic? Hardington Rd and SoTG camera schemes create little private roads for a few local residents. So there are exemptions. Why not extend this to all GP residents. They are not 'through' traffic.TGT still carries buses, vans, taxis and local access, including collections and disabled. So again, why not allow local residents to use this road, as it was designed as a key access route that crosses the tube lines. It unites two halves of the local community, otherwise divided by the tube embankmentIf you take your logic, everyone as soon as they leave their own street they become 'through traffic'. The issue in W4 is through traffic from the M4/ south circular and Chiswick Bridge that cuts through W4 on the way to somewhere else. It is not local traffic. The reduced traffic volumes through local access schemes would help local buses and may encourage local cyclists. It would also keep some of the largest and most dangerous vehicels of our roads. So all local residents all benefit.

Paul Green ● 2175d

"If the point of these schemes is to reduce through traffic they should apply to all traffic, rather than introducing selective privilege, exceptions and confusion."The schemes currently proposed and being implemented south of the A4 already have selective privilege, exceptions and confusion built in to them. For example if you live on Hartington Road and its environs you can enter and exit via the area via the Hartington Road junction with the A316 but if you live north of the railway line or on Strand on the Green whilst you can exit that way you cannot return. You must drive along to Staveley Road which itself will be closed as a school street for two hours a day.  Tourists visiting the pubs and restaurants of Strand on the Green can enter and leave the area via Kew Bridge as of course can residents living in the SOG and Thames road area. But residents living north of the railway line or in Hartington Road or its environs can drive to SOG/Thames road but must not exit or return to the area via the Kew Bridge entrance to SOG.Residents of St Thomas's Road will potentially be trapped by the school street for two hours a day and forced to make long detours to reach the A4. Meanwhile their neighbours in Montgomery Courts three blocks will be able register on a white list and travel along the school streets.    Anything that will simplify this confusing mess is to be welcomed - providing of course that it significantly reduces the number of vehicles travelling from the A316 along Hartington Road heading for the A4 and cutting out the Hogarth Roundabout. It would also be good to see measures that discourages rat-running in the evening. The current schemes fail to address this 'little' issue.      Cecile - if parking was allowed for football supporters at say SOG schools they would only pass through one ANPR camera on arrival and would not therefore be ticketed.

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 2175d

You don’t have to have permits displayed (not in H&F anyway). The council here stopped issuing paper permits when lock down came in first time so a lot of cars have expired permits on show but when the CEOs check cars their handheld computer says Ok.

Andrew Jones ● 2175d

So it's going to be OK for local children to be run over by 'local' traffic that's inexplicably (to any onlooker) allowed through the school streets? And how will teachers or parents monitoring their pupils know which cars can and can't drive through? In small towns in France, volunteer parents with hi-vis jackets simply drag a couple of barriers across the street for the relevant time and everybody waits or goes another way. Simple! But in Grove Park, it seems the residents must maintain their right to drive where they like, even if it means mowing down local children! I know paper windscreen permits have been replaced by remote sensors, but I don't think it's a good idea, as it doesn't help the public recognise a car that's parking or driving where it shouldn't be.

Peter Evans ● 2175d

The problem with the scheme is that it does not only stop non-local traffic but also local traffic that does not meet the LBH definition of "local".Suppose you live on Sutton Court Road (even just north of the A4 junction) and want to shop at Richmond Sainsbury's.  The logical route is down SCR, over the railway bridge down Hartington Road and turn right onto A316 and coming back would be the reverse.Sadly that person living on or just off SCR is not a "local" for LBH so the reverse journey involves the Hogarth Roundabout - and we all know that the A316 from Edensor Road to the roundabout regularly struggles with the volume of traffic (something that has been known about for nearly 50 years) and if anything goes wrong blocks back for a long way.So what we end up with are longer and slower journeys and rather than reducing traffic we simply move it to some other roads problem

Justin Stephenson ● 2175d

Good points Justin. This is where consultation comes in and we get to decide as a community.Peter, you don’t understand the technology, how it works, or which cars will be able to drive down school streets in the current system. I’ve often wondered why a zebra crossing and lollipop person wasn’t considered for my local school btw.

Russell Pearson ● 2175d

Russell, I do understand that you want to be able to drive where you like and don't accept the value of LTNs. You are entitled to that but it doesn't make it right.

Carl Wynne ● 2175d

Carl, then you misunderstand me. Never assume, it makes an ass out of you and me.

Russell Pearson ● 2175d

The latest trick I hear is that a  ticket has been issued on a school street, during half term. Another nice little earner 👍

Maggie Dodge ● 2175d

Has anyone in the LBOH even considered or liaised with TfI on the weak bridge (Alexandra Bridge) on the A316.It had barriers installed a long time ago to protect the verges and payments.Just wondering how it’s holding up on the amount of heavy traffic that’s at a standstill most mornings travelling East into London.If more heavy goods vehicles are directed along the A316, that could add more stationary weight for a longer period of time, and have a detrimental effect to the strength of the bridge.I am not saying it’s about to collapse, but it was only built to carry vehicles to the gravel pits as Chiswick Bridge wasn’t constructed until after, and opened in 1933.Just think, in theory we could have another bridge down, as it’s been mention in the press that all London bridges are in a bad state. Weather or not that’s down to the local authority’s or Tlf is unknown to me,but maybe LBOH should check to see if AB can take the weight of the extra traffic.

Bernard Allen ● 2175d

Peter, how did this get onto school streets? Also as I understand it local residents are allowed on school streets, so a bit like TGT there is still traffic. What is 'inexcplicable' about a vehicle driving down a road.I think school streets are a good idea but you seem to be making up extreme scenarios while ignoring the fact there is traffic still allowed. They are not pedestrianised. The use of cameras and local resident databases can remove through traffic from Grove Park and TGT while allowing local traffic. PerfectAlso, its now the public's responsibility to recognise a car that 'parking or driving where it shouldnt be'. I would dial down the vigilante bit

Paul Green ● 2174d

Exactly - They are not permitted to rat run through Grove Park.Perhaps they will then choose to shop at the nearer Chiswick Sainsbury’s.

Felicity Goodall ● 2174d

When I turn onto Hartington Road from Chiswick Bridge, I'm not 'rat running', I'm going home to Sutton Court Road.

Colin Jordan ● 2174d

Colin, I also live in SCR Grove Park side. I am so confused and perhaps someone can clarify: Can I drive over the SCR railway bridge, down Hartington road to get to the A316?2. Can I later return to SCR via Hartington road and back the same route as I left earlier. Will I get a PCN?Thanks

Patrick O Connor ● 2174d

If you live within the Grove Park ANPR area you can drive home. If you do not live within Grove Park, but want to drive home through Grove Park (eg to Sutton Court Road North) you are rat running through the area. You will need to use the main roads around Grove Park to drive home.

Felicity Goodall ● 2174d

Patrick, 2 will get you a £130 PCN. Only 2 tiny CPZ next to Hartington can apply for an exemption to come in that way. Going out is ok, for now.

Russell Pearson ● 2174d

Those CPZs are CS and RV. Even if you hold  a parking  permit in these zones you still need to register your vehicle for the "white list".

Bruce Hammal ● 2174d

Yep, and this is where it gets really silly. They’ve created an entirely new database with manual applications - have to send in all your ID again, even though it’s all stored in the existing WSP database. They must then have to transfer the exemption list data to WSP so the ANPR cameras don’t issue fines. All very time-consuming, laborious and very expensive. H&F do it with the one WSP database and add all in the CPZ, plus off road parkers from DVLA, automatically to an exemption list.

Russell Pearson ● 2174d

Colin, while Russell tries to knock some sense into LBH over this, if you live in one of the streets on the Hartington "access all areas" list you should have received a letter about it. If the website is working, applying is pretty easy - here's the link.https://www.hounslow.gov.uk/xfp/form/333I'm still not sure when the trial will go live; the letter I referred to just said November.

Bruce Hammal ● 2174d

This is an enlightening thread on the challenges of these schemes which highlight two key issues. One is the expanse of a zone and the other is the competence and goals of the authority implementing it. Peter seems to want a force of street vigalantes barricading every road in Chiswick. Felicity seems to want to tell people where to shop and presumably stop them driving on 'her' road.There is a way forward that involves compromise on all sides but crucially a willingness to engage from Hounslow.The current schemes allow a handful of residents to use Hartington westbound, no clarity on how or why these lucky folk got their own private stretch of road. Then we SoTG and Thames Rd similarly becoming near exclusive, unless of course you want to attend a match at Brentford then you are welcomeSeveral people have highlighted the ease of using a single database for CPZs and ANPR camera systems. Other authorities are doing this. This could widen the Hartington Rd route to include all GP residents, why not? Boundaries need to be drawn somewhere and that is as good as any. It is after all only fair that residents who no doubt drive up Sutton Court also allow the residents they drive past to use Hartington or SoTG. This could easily also apply to TGT, a closure in search of a problem to solve beyond making money for Hounslow. It will never be a pedestrian plaza given the need for access to the tube station and its the key route for the E3, a lifeline for many that unites north and south Chiswick.I can see no practical objections to the ability to introduce these schemes, beyond the stubborness and lack of competence of Hounslow officials. It would also answer the cycling lobbyists who seem to refuse to compromise but would see many of their objectives achieved.

Paul Green ● 2174d

Thanks Russell, keep up the good work andI hope to share a pint with you hopefully 2/3 December. I hope that Felicity reads your reply to my question.I assume that her understanding of Hartington road ANPR Grove Park is inclusive of living in SCR. So I could get a PCN for driving home! I suppose they could take it out of my Council Tax that I am tempted to *** ***

Patrick O Connor ● 2173d

Not sure that's true on Hartington.Even with the SOTG one, where that is true, it still causes massive knock on problems.  For a lot of Grove Park residents, it will probably add around a mile to their journey to get back home via the High Rd and Sutton Court Road.  That extra mile is creating more pollution, and adding to the congestion on the High Road.On a bad day, that could add 40 minutes to the journey with the traffic we have seen recently.  As well as the inconvenience, that will also create more pollution. Even when they aren't moving, the heating/air con in the cars will be on.As others have said, creating a database of Grove Park residents isn't that hard.  If they are going to do this scheme, it's definitely the right option.  The Big Brother cameras everywhere thing isn't good, but we are getting the cameras anyway, and they already have our details for residents' parking.  They should let Grove Park residents through these areas.

Al Webber ● 2173d

Al, this is an excellent point and shows just how badly thought through these schemes are. So Hounslow are saying a GP resident cannot drive along SoTG as they are 'through' traffic. Instead they need to use the congested Chiswick roundabout, go onto the A4, exit as signed by the Porsche garage. Then use Barrowgate Rd (a minor residential road) to reach Sutton Court, and then head south into Grove Park This whole junction of Sutton Court and the A4 is a shambles, especially actively directing traffic onto a minor residential road. So Hounslow say you cannot drive along SoTG, but you can and should drive along Barrowgate Road. Again, its stupid and creates winners and losers. SoTG gets cleaner air and the already busy Barrowgate Rd gets more pollution. Hounslow refuse to acknowledge this point

Paul Green ● 2173d

Look forward to that Patrick. Yes, it could easily have been scaled to include all of Grove Park, and adjacent areas too. Going to miss getting takeaways delivered from Brentford as they will be cut off at Thames Road and will not drive all the way round to the Porsche garage and have to wait to get across the A4

Russell Pearson ● 2173d