Forum Topic

US election result and Brexit

Anyone anxious about what the outcome will be for Brexit. Will Biden force his hand?

Sean Wales ● 2183d118 Comments

Brexit's happened.

Claire Moran ● 2183d

We have left the EU true. Still plenty of fall out to deal with though.

Andrew Jones ● 2182d

Wish the people of Sunderland could rush over there to get the counting going. Nearly 48 hours since last update.

Vivienne Cox ● 2182d

The US election is a poor form of democracy, barely worthy of the definition. But from the current chaotic counting and complaints it is beginning to look possible that Trump will be beaten. And if this is the case, and Biden and the democrats win, then we should expect a direct impact on the Brexit that the UK can obtain. The Irish border and the Good Friday Agreement will become critical. This will influence heavily on the trade agreement.Yes, Brexit (another shoddy example of democracy) has happened. But the future arrangements of the UK and Europe are far from defined. The people of Sunderland may be quick counters but they are also idiot voters. They must be hoping that the US election means a hard Brexit is less likely.

Alan Clark ● 2182d

Alan, I was with you until your description of the people of Sunderland as 'idiot voters'. They have their opinions just as you have yours, and that sort of reductive, supercilious insult is exactly the sort of reason they felt patronized by a southern élite, which led to them vote as they did.

Colin Jordan ● 2182d

'Southern Elite'. Yes, of course that's most people in London  according to people like you. Doesn't matter if we're living in a pokey one bedroom flat and doing some nonsense job, we're elites to the people of Sunderland?

Basil Finnis ● 2182d

No Basil, I think Alan was well out of order in talking about ‘idiot Sunderland voters’ and there is a perception of a ‘southern elite’, even if this may not be strictly fair.

Alastair Banton ● 2182d

Alan Clark believes he is superior to anyone regardless if they are from Sunderland or Streatham

Paul Fisher ● 2182d

Basil, what do you mean by 'people like you'? What is it you know about me that enables you to classify me as belonging to a specific cohort of people? I can tell you that I don't come from Sunderland and I don't think of the people of London, where I have lived for many years, as an élite. I was referring to the perception others might have and the sorts of things that might create that perception, one of them being gratuitous insult.

Colin Jordan ● 2182d

Funny thing is I'm considerably more northern than Sunderland. It is rightly named 'Sunder'land for me.Voting to leave just to spite "them in Westminster" or "them in that London" was not bright. Voting to leave when a moments thinking would identify issues for the place you live in is definitely not bright. So I'm happy to apologize for calling such voters idiots. Sorry. But I'd welcome a better description of people doing something so evidently not clever.

Alan Clark ● 2182d

Oh dear,hes blooming off again

Julian Pavey ● 2182d

Alan Clark

Janice Evans ● 2182d

I'm from Sunderland but have lived in London since 1972. Can I help?

Bruce Hammal ● 2182d

Yep,not possibly i think your wrong, but your thick Maybe tweet the post out with  few hashtags to boot,nothing like getting the message out to the targeted people

Julian Pavey ● 2182d

Great people Bruce, my Dads life long friend was from Sunderland.

Janice Evans ● 2182d

Spot on Colin.

Janice Evans ● 2182d

The post at 9.19

Janice Evans ● 2182d

"The US election is a poor form of democracy, barely worthy of the definition."Sounds like a quote straight out of the Trump playbook. Perhaps you could explain why you think around 160 million people voting is a "poor form of democracy" ? This time round it looks like the majority of voters will get their preferred choice of President, which was regrettably not the case four years ago. No form of democracy is perfect, but the American one seems as good as most others. As you have never even tried to comprehend why people voted for Brexit, you are ill-placed to comment on what those who did so expect from the outcome, and to describe  a national referendum as a "shoddy example of democracy" suggests that you are more attuned to the Russian variant than that operating in the West.

Richard Greenhough ● 2182d

"I was with you until your description of the people of Sunderland as 'idiot voters'Colin is spot on when he calls out the above as a "reductive, supercilious insult."70 million voted for Trump. More than he got last time. More gays, more black men and more Hispanics to name a few. They can't all be daft. So rather than perpetuate that Other Evil-Doer maybe better to try and understand what drove them to that decision and close the gap. There are plenty of real evil doers out there but we shouldn't be that one citizen to the next.

David Lesniak ● 2182d

David, I heard he was doing good things business side with thesepeople you mention, just we never got to hear about all the good work he has been doing, I hope if Biden wins he will continue with this.

Janice Evans ● 2182d

I’m going to wade in.I too think that the American system of democracy is not very good for several reasons including that there are so few ‘swing states’ and so many people’s votes don’t count.  We have a similar problem in the U.K. with our FPTP system.  And, if pressed, I would admit that the EU’s democracy is far from perfect.  I wish people would stop this ‘our democracy is better than theirs’ shtick and just look at the facts. I think that any democracy worthy of the name would be on a continual search for ways to refine and improve it where necessary in order that everybody’s voices are not only heard but are able to exert some influence on the direction of the country or group.This certainly doesn’t happen in the U.K. yet.

Alastair Banton ● 2182d

Sorry, Janice. I don't understand what you're saying. It seems you think Trump has done well by LGBTQ people, black men and Hispanics.Nothing could be further than the truth. That Platinum Plan crap aimed at black voters? Pandering for one thing. And the mere fact he did so tells you two things at a minimum: he's up to his tricks and it's shameful the topic still needs to be discussed in 2020. A bit like when the BBC blathered on about equal pay but then said it would take a while to accomplish. Yeah, women love to hear that shit. Separate but equal should not be a thing and yet it persists.And could someone please explain why after pledging to build a wall at the Mexican border, the Hispanic population in some Texas border towns increased their support for Trump this time around.

David Lesniak ● 2182d

The notion of a good democracy is that provides an informed electorate with a valid vote, as valid as the next persons. The outcome should reflect the wishes of the majority but also reflect the range of opinions, not just party A or party B.In the US, the simplistic and out dated state college structure fail on that objective. This creates 'swing' states where a small number of voters effectively decide the outcome. Our own FPTP structure has many of these disadvantages. Modern democratic structures have systems more reflective of the entire nation and of the widely varying views of the populace.It is important to note the difference between a democratic structure & system and the application of that system. Trump has been making wild and false claims of issues with the application (voter fraud) but not the structure itself. That should be obvious.

Alan Clark ● 2182d

I agree that the UK's version of democracy could be improved. Without looking it up how many people know when the last election was that voted the government in with a majority of people voting for it?We are a country that should have a (decent) version of PR. The one that we got offered a few years back was rubbish. No surprise there. After all, neither Labour nor Conservatives want to dilute their power when they win an election. The idea that they should be trying to serve the people appears to be a minor detail that gets lost in the thrall of power.As for those who waffle on about a majority of people voting for Brexit, they seem to forget that people were lied to and not allowed a "confirmatory vote". Also, a large chunk of the population who would be most affected by Brexit weren't allowed to vote. By the by, don't tell me that the two subsequent elections were a confirmation of Brexit. They weren't. Both the Conservatives and Labour were pro-Brexit.

John Hickman ● 2182d

David, cannot find the clip, but Hispanic person was speaking very well of him.

Janice Evans ● 2182d

Looks Biden has won. So how will that impact Johnson?

Alan Clark ● 2182d

"As for those who waffle on about a majority of people voting for Brexit, they seem to forget that people were lied to and not allowed a "confirmatory vote".That was certainly the case in 1975, when we were told the Common Market we had joined without any yes/no vote was just a trade body. For the next forty-one years the plan for ever-closer union unfolded with no opportunity for the British electorate to call a halt and say enough was enough.

Richard Greenhough ● 2182d

Thank you for reminding the "forgetful" of the basic reason why we entered the Common Market originally.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2182d

I do not think Biden will force his hand in a way Trump tried to lecture PM May. Biden has Irish heritage and has expressed his concern about the Irish border and peace. Biden has to focus on the US(we are more divided than Ireland now) although I think he will move fast to reassure allies regarding strategic commitments such as NATO. He will ask to come back on the Paris Climate Accord. What will be interesting is the cabinet he picks.

Stephen Francis ● 2182d

Richard is 100% correct.

Claire Moran ● 2182d

In general the UK (even the Tories under Johnson, just don't mention foxhunting or badgers or animal experimentation to me) are far more allied to what I have seen so far of Biden's values in terms of climate change etc.  We may have a hiccup over Brexit, but that will be resolved.

Claire Moran ● 2182d

Richard spot on.

Janice Evans ● 2182d

Biden has made it clear that there will not be a US/UK trade deal unless the Good Friday agreement is honoured which the government does not see as a priority. Biden is very proud of his Irish ancestry. There is some bad feeling between Biden and Johnson stemming from Johnson’s observation that Obama was being difficult ‘ because of his Kenyan ancestry ‘ At least he didn’t say Obama had a watermelon smile. That’s just other black people.Although, I recall an interview with Johnson when he said that Trump was unfit to hold the office of the President . He was right on that occasion Twitter today has a fair number of conservative MPs, supporters and Farage et al all against Biden presumably because he will see the EU as more important as we will be a third country and increasingly less important as we have given up our leading role in the EU.And as an aside, Goldman Sachs have taken just  $60 billion in assets out of London and placed them in Germany (I think) in advance of 31st December.

Stewart Jones ● 2181d

Biden has no interest in the UK. He has links to Ireland and is concerned the Friday agreement is upheld. However, as was was in crooked Obama’s gov for eights years and did absolutely zero, Obama was putting the UK on the bottom of any trade list and so will perv Biden be doing the same. He is pro-Europe so forget your UK jobs and deals. Trump was big friends with the UK, he’s put enough of his wealth in the UK with his golf resorts etc... and was pro-Brexit and is a friend of BJ our PM. The UK was on the top of his list for trade and business deals once the Brexit thing is sorted in Jan 2021 creating 10’s of 1000’s of jobs. YOU CAN NOW SAY GOODBYE to all that as sleepy Joe ain’t gonna do nowt. The left-wing democrats are nothing but trouble and all the slime and Swamp that Trump was going to clean out will now carry on unaccounted for. Evil scum, I hope Trump works around exposing these lowlife for who and what they are along with the media and UK media are just as bad. “The enemy of the people” Trump so aptly says.

c james ● 2181d

Well we did get that referendum. But unlike previous major policy change referendums it had no sensible hurdle. Such as over 50% of the voting population. Brexit got, what, 37%?  Not a mandate. Just a protest. We now enter into the serious stuff. Final days of trade negotiations. Biden as a ardent supporter of the good Friday agreement. Johnson as an increasingly weak PM. Brexit will fail to deliver on its promises. I take no pleasure in that prediction.

Alan Clark ● 2181d

Democracy in action

Andrew Jones ● 2181d

‘Trump ... was pro-Brexit and is a friend of BJ our PM.  The U.K. was on the top of his list for trade and business deals once the Brexit thing is sorted in Jan 2021 creating tens of thousands of jobs.  YOU CAN SAY GOODBYE to all that as sleepy Joe ain’t gonna do nowt’.So in other words the success of Brexit entirely depends on having a sympathetic guy in the White House.  You call that sovereignty?

Alastair Banton ● 2181d

Bojo has been exposed and I have a hunch the hounds are plotting away ready to pounce in the spring. Why would anyone want to step into the PM role, a pandemic crisis going from bad to worse, Brexit unable to get a deal done, a “normal” Christmas according to the buffoon, angry and frustrated country. Not a good state of affairs. The world is looking at how best to recover from the covid economic disaster which is far from over, do you honestly think negotiating a trade deal with the UK will be on their list of priorities! The big question is who takes over, let’s face it, there is not a leader that sticks out.

James Smith-Jones ● 2181d

As for the US election a new president and a new dawn. America needs to heal as an unsettled America effects the world. When I hear of my US colleagues these last months going for shooting lessons with their wives and buying a gun for the first time, that is worrying. Good luck to Biden, he has a task on his hands.

James Smith-Jones ● 2181d

His speech this morning (our time) was a masterpiece of conciliation and rationality, by contrast with the pugnacious rantings of Giuliani. I prefer to be optimistic about our future relations with the US under Biden.

Colin Jordan ● 2181d

Its good to be optimistic and the removal of the highly volatile Trump gives us some reason to hope for more balanced, more stable relations with the US. But. There is the issue of the Internal Markets Bill and the threat to the good friday agreement that it represents. Pelosi and Biden have been clear in their concerns on this bill. Johnson risks so much if he fails to get a EU trade deal and continues with jeopardising the open border in Ireland.And guess who got him into this mess? Yup, himself.

Alan Clark ● 2181d

I think those saying that this will be the end of Brexit are well wide of the mark. As are those saying that this will compel Johnson into a deal with the EU. The only two things that command bipartisan support in a polarised Washington nowadays are antipathy to China and support for Ireland. Had Trump been elected this would have still been the case, and Congress would have blocked any FTA if the UK Govt had breached the GFA, so to all practical intents and purposes little has changed there. Funnily enough although I don't see an FTA agreement with the UK as anything like a priority for the Biden administration, if one is reached under his auspices I would expect it to be far more equitable than one negotiated under Trump who is infinitely more transactional, and tends to view deals on an "I win, you lose" basis. Biden is an arch pragmatist, relations with the UK are likely to be perfectly cordial, rather than effusive, more Clinton/Major than Reagan/Thatcher or Blair/Bush, On a personal level I find this significantly preferable to the pathetically needy bleating about the "special relationship." Trump's absence might force the more extreme right wing headbangers in the tory party to wind their necks in a bit now that they realise their main Brexit prize, an FTA with the US will now very much go on the back burner. This might allow Johnson enough wiggle room to reach an agreement with the EU, now that there's an old fashioned internationalist in the White House, but I don't expect it to be the game changer that some of the more excitable media commentators seem to be hoping for.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2181d

"The left-wing democrats are nothing but trouble"C, C, C, C, C.Put a lid on it, won't you please?Democrats are not all left-wing though there are some. Good. That brings balance to the debate.As for the slime, swamp and evil scum I believe they've just been cleaned out by the election results with a few notable exceptions like Mitch McConnell. But per your rhetoric, C, you'd prefer to have a hypocrite like McConnell undermining democracy in a country that isn't yours. Do I have that right?To be fair, party loyalty one way or another doesn't immediately make you good or bad.

David Lesniak ● 2181d

Huw, I would add “support for Israel” to the things that command bipartisan support (as that is the only “special relationship” that matters in US politics and certainly not the UK relationship despite some in this country thinking different). Even Netanyahu was ensuring that by his distancing from Trump pre-US Election despite his antipathy to Obama when he was in power. On Ireland Biden has spent so long mining the theme that he is the true inheritor of the Kennedy clan legacy, he will support the Irish American view to the hilt. Whether he is the pragmatist claimed only time will tell - his political track record to date is not outstanding. What is smart is his choice of VP and likely next Democrat presidential candidate. Plus as said earlier in various postings in this thread, his choice of Cabinet (especially if the Democrats  can wrest control from a Republican Senate that has simply obstructed for so long) will be key.to making major progress.

Joe Conneely ● 2181d

Brexit 'won' utilising the purest form of democracy namely 'one-person-one-vote' where every vote counted compared with so many forms of democracy that so-called 'democratic nations' operate where countless votes mean nothing individually. Interesting how the USA media calls the turn as to who wins USA presidencies. Fox News etc. jumped in strategically right at the moment Trump is litigating so as to get their man in before 'fraud' really is able to be wheedled out of the USA's unreliable turgid electoral counting systems that really does have capacity for human error and biased counting or computerised counting machines to 'read wrongly' - as, indeed, is the same in the UK.

Bobbie Carnegie ● 2181d

RG > "... we were told the Common Market we had joined without any yes/no vote was just a trade body."Wrong.Speaking in the House of Commons:"But whatever the economic arguments, the House will realise that, as I have repeatedly made clear, the Government's purpose derives, above all, from our recognition that Europe is now faced with the opportunity of a great move forward in political unity and that we can and indeed must - play our full part in it." [emphasis added]-- Prime Minister Harold Wilson, 2 May 1967. Source: HansardMessage from the Prime Minister:"The community which we are joining is far more than a common market. It is a community in the true sense of that term. It is concerned not only with the establishment of free trade, economic and monetary union and other major economic issues, important though these are - but also as the Paris Summit Meeting has demonstrated, with social issues which affect us all - environmental questions, working conditions in industry, consumer protection, aid to development areas and vocational training." [emphasis added]-- Prime Minister Edward Heath, December 1972. Source: Illustrated London News.And that's just for starters...

John Whitworth ● 2181d

Referendums are far from 'pure'. They depend on a well informed electorate. So the more complex the issue the more likely the voters will be ill-informed. These means more "gut instinct" voting (prone to prejudices), or more people ducking out of voting as they are unable to make a decision. Referendums are more reflective of a current zeitgeist rather than a longer term overall perspective. So they are more prone to media and social media surges towards one view (i.e. external influence). So contradictorily while referendums are reserved for major issues they are in fact least well suited for major complex issues that have long term consequences. Which why they should, as in previous referendums, always have a high threshold (say 50% of all the electorate or 60% of the actual vote) or always be viewed as indicative. And always should be very clear on the details of the outcome being voted for.I'd also challenge your claim that democracies have 'countless votes that mean nothing'. Do you mean instances where there are 2-3 rounds of voting to determine, say, a president? If you do, then you do not understand how they operate in practice and how the electorate responds to each round. And if you think all PR voting has many rounds of voting then again, you appear not to understand the different PR models. Most compellingly, you cite 'every vote counts' as a purer form of democracy. Which what PR aims to deliver. FPTP fails that goal.

Alan Clark ● 2181d

RG is fond of trotting out this old canard, it's his version of the post WW1 "betrayal myth." It has been disproven, to him on a number of occasions, and he still burbles on about it, none so blind, etc etc etcFrom the Daily Mail leader on Wednesday 4th June 1975, the day prior the referendum:"They speak as if the EEC's eventual goal of *political union* (my emphasis) was a dark secret to be sprung on us when our backs were turned."https://www.richardcorbett.org.uk/daily-mail/

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2181d

I was well aware of the ambitions of the Treaty of Rome for ever-closer union, which is why I voted against our continued membership in 1975. However, most voters remained unaware and while Wilson and Heath may have occasionally mentioned it, it was not by any means a major part of the case made for membership by them and the others leading the argument for a "yes" vote. Heath, in particular, whose enthusiasm for the project blinded him to its drawbacks, notably failed to put forward his vision of how the EEC ought to develop. In much the same way, those campaigning for us to remain in the EU in 2016 were conspicuously silent on how they saw it developing over the next twenty years or so.

Richard Greenhough ● 2181d

It may have been the most democratic method amongst the eligible electorate, but (and I realise it’s irrelevant now) vast numbers of people who are voters now, and who will be affected by the consequences of the referendum result for decades to come weren’t able to express their choice.Was there a better way of deciding the issue than with a referendum - perhaps no. Should the eligible electorate have been larger and included people younger than 18? I’d have said probably.Anyway just what I think, the result was what it was.

Andrew Jones ● 2181d

RG > "I was well aware..."In which case, your earlier statement..."... we were told the Common Market we had joined without any yes/no vote was just a trade body."... is completely wrong.Can't you just accept that?

John Whitworth ● 2181d

"That was certainly the case in 1975, when we were told the Common Market we had joined without any yes/no vote was just a trade body. For the next forty-one years the plan for ever-closer union unfolded with no opportunity for the British electorate to call a halt and say enough was enough."And it has stayed a trade body as far as the UK is concerned, despite the inept negotiations that Cameron carried out. The UK might have been encouraged to "join politically" but it has certainly resisted that temptation. Just to be clear, I will repeat my gripes.1) Being lied to. That was not the case at the beginning of the 70s. 2) Excluding those who would be more affected by the vote. No point in brushing this off. It is very important. The older among us (includes me) will be less affected. I care about my grandchildren.3) We had a decent trade relationship with the EU before Brexit. This has been turned upside down (no matter what sort of agreement Johnson gets) and will affect our GDP and quality of life.

John Hickman ● 2181d

no, it means jobs for thousands and business. your left-wing illness will prevent that. TRUMP 2020 drain the swamp - lock her up!

c james ● 2181d

So Mr Clark basically says that if your not informed you should not have a vote. Like a general election,you can be loyal or thick that does not take away your right to vote. Thickos have the same rights as you do even if you disagree with the outcome. Talk about having to use Self-righteousness in ending this posting

Julian Pavey ● 2181d

Conservative Party Manifesto, 1970 -"If we can negotiate the right terms, we believe that it would be in the long-term interest of the British people for Britain to join the European Economic Community, and that it would make a major contribution to both the prosperity and the security of our country. The opportunities are immense. Economic growth and a higher standard of living would result from having a larger market.But we must also recognise the obstacles. There would be short-term disadvantages in Britain going into the European Economic Community which must be weighed against the long-term benefits. Obviously there is a price we would not be prepared to pay. Only when we negotiate will it be possible to determine whether the balance is a fair one, and in the interests of Britain.Our sole commitment is to negotiate; no more, no less. As the negotiations proceed we will report regularly through Parliament to the country."Nothing there about the political aspects of the EEC and ever-closer union, nor about joining it without any opportunity for the electorate to express its opinion on the terms of the deal. Labour Party manifesto February 1974 - "The Common Market now threatens us with still higher food prices and with a further loss of Britain's control of its own affairs. We shall restore to the British people the right to decide the final issue of British membership of the Common Market.The British people were never consulted about the Market.Britain is a European nation, and a Labour Britain would always seek a wider co-operation between the European peoples. But a profound political mistake made by the Heath Government was to accept the terms of entry to the Common Market, and to take us in without the consent of the British people. This has involved the imposition of food taxes on top of rising world prices, crippling fresh burdens on our balance of payments, and a draconian curtailment of the power of the British Parliament to settle questions affecting vital British interests. This is why a Labour Government will immediately seek a fundamental re negotiation of the terms of entry.We have spelled out in Labour's Programme for Britain our objectives in the new negotiations which must take place:The Labour Party opposes British membership of the European Communities on the terms negotiated by the Conservative Government."Not that their renegotiation made much difference to those terms. Labour Party Manifesto October 1974 - "Our genuine concern for democratic rights is in sharp contrast to the Tory attitude. In the greatest single peacetime decision of this century - Britain's membership of the Common Market - the British people were not given a chance to say whether or not they agreed to the terms accepted by the Tory Government. Both the Conservatives and the Liberals have refused to endorse the rights of our people to make their own decision. Only the Labour Party is committed to the right of the men and women of this country to make this unique decision."A significant lack of explanation of what signing up to the Treaty of Rome and its aim of ever-closer union meant by either governing party before the UK joined and before the post-event referendum.

Richard Greenhough ● 2181d

That is absolutely not what I am saying. You would need to apply a very skewed mind to come to that conclusion. Your conclusion must be what you want me to be saying; but it’s 100% wrong.

Alan Clark ● 2181d

“ For really I think that the poorest hee that is in England hath a life to live, as the greatest hee; and therefore truly, Sr, I think itt clear, that every Man that is to live under a Government ought first by his own Consent to put himself under that Government; and I do think that the poorest man in England is not at all bound in a strict sense to that Government that he hath not had a voice to put Himself under.”Leveller text, Putney, Church of St Mary the VirginThe poorest, he, or she, has as much rights as the smuggest and richest thee. That’s democracy. Summat Trump doesn’t get, and many here..

Russell Pearson ● 2181d

RG > "A significant lack of explanation..."But also significant is the lack of any description of the EC as 'just a trade body' as you claimed we were told.But that's history.Bringing us up to date, I should point out that the implementation of the 2016 referendum decision will result in a departure from the hugely important trade component of the EU - the single market/EEA - and possibly leave us with no bilateral trade agreement whatsoever.Utterly stupid!

John Whitworth ● 2181d

There are plenty of decisions that humans really aren’t good at making. Assessing risk isn’t always done objectively for example.If you believe the most important thing is to have what the majority think they want, then you can get fairly close with some of the ways we implement voting in the world.If on the other hand you believe the most important thing is the ‘best’ or ‘optimal’ outcome for those who form the community from which the electorate is drawn that’s considerably less easy to achieve successfully with many of the voting systems we’re used to here in the uk.Where I work (when things have gone wrong) we have a phrase “They got what they asked for, but not what they wanted”

Andrew Jones ● 2181d

AJ > 'Where I work (when things have gone wrong) we have a phrase “They got what they asked for, but not what they wanted'My version: "They got what they wanted, but not what they needed"

John Whitworth ● 2181d

Hopefully the result in America marks the turning of a corner from hard right nationalism that started some time back with the rise of Tea Party Republicanism.Sadly in the UK we have some way to go.  Brexit is the UK's expression of a Trumpian desire to step back from the world lost in a misguided belief of some imperialist fantasy.The idea that the EU would be desperate to make a deal ? ... when all the figures showed how little difference the UK trade makes.The oft-quoted German car makers ? ... who from the start said they are more concerned with a stable EU market. And President-elect Biden is correct to put Ireland first.  No Brexit little-englander has ever explained how was could exit EU and not destroy the Good Friday agreement.

David Grantley ● 2181d

Yes, extremely similar sentiments, if not identical.

Andrew Jones ● 2181d

Totally agree Julian

Claire Moran ● 2181d

That means that you are totally wrong as well. Not much surprise there.

Alan Clark ● 2181d

With luck, following the departure of the UK, the EU will cease its utterly stupid obsession with ever-closer union and become the trade organisation it should have been in the first place. Otherwise I wonder if it will survive another twenty years. Perhaps you would like to forecast where you see the EU going over the next twenty years ?

Richard Greenhough ● 2181d

“They got what they asked for, but not what they wanted”? Probably because those who regard themselves as arrogantly superior in so much that didn't 'want what they asked for' screamed an' schemed to make sure they didn't 'get what they wanted'.

Bobbie Carnegie ● 2181d

RG > "Perhaps you would like to forecast where you see the EU going over the next twenty years ?"I have one cast iron prediction: the UK will have no say in the future development of the EU - the world's largest, most successful free trade area, regulatory superpower, and our biggest trade partner.Utterly stupid!

John Whitworth ● 2181d

So the answer to my question is no, then. Funny how the Euro-enthusiasts seem unable or unwilling to forecast how they think the EU will develop - perhaps they think that if they did more people would realise why Brexit was a necessity. Indeed, anyone would wonder whether the MCB News theories might have some basis in fact.

Richard Greenhough ● 2181d

RG > "Indeed, anyone would wonder whether the MCB News theories might have some basis in fact."Hilarious.

John Whitworth ● 2181d

It is not possible to have the EU level of completely open goods and services free trade without political, tax and standards alignment. Just not possible. Please stop bleating about how such alignment is such an imposition. It’s not. It works (worked). Outside the EU and alone will not be glorious. Biden will fly over London to meet with the EU. That is our future. A fly over state.

Alan Clark ● 2181d

Your silence is telling. It is reasonable to expect an apology from you for your crass and excessive claim about what I meant in my post. There is nothing in my posts that even hint to what you claim “I meant”. Your post was wrong, offensive and without justification.

Alan Clark ● 2180d

All this negativity about the election result and Brexit is unwarranted. I have it on good authority that Johnson was assured by the person who answered the phone when he tried to reach Joe Biden to congratulate him that Britain is in line to get an Iran style trade deal when he takes over.

Paul Corcoran ● 2180d

I believe that C buffoon is a plant or a very poor troll?

Basil Finnis ● 2180d

"I believe that C buffoon is a plant.."A triffid, perhaps ?

Richard Greenhough ● 2180d

Those who never trusted Trump, are not trusting of Biden either, is it just moan on.

Janice Evans ● 2180d

Janice, I think  they have completely different values and morals. I don’t trust Trump as there so much evidence to suggest that he is a crook, a liar and a fraud and has denigrated the office of the President. I’m sure Biden is not perfect but I trust him much more than TrumpUnfortunately, Biden is not keen on Johnson and remembers the insults that Johnson made about Obama. Also Johnson and May gave tacit approval to some of Trump’s nasty policies and attacks on the press and the judiciary. Now that we have left the EU the Americans will be going more to Brussels than London as we become less influential as a third country

Stewart Jones ● 2180d

Stewart, as many did not trust Trump to come forward with any trade deals, why worry about what Biden will do.

Janice Evans ● 2180d

The issue is that Biden has made it clear that there will be no trade deal if the UK damages the GFA. Johnson’s internal market bill threatens to do just that. So Johnson will be obliged to either put a customs border down the Irish Sea or take a risk and damage the GFA. The former will split the UK and promote the idea of a united Ireland. The latter risks stopping a US trade deal - just as we badly damage our trade with the EU. That is Johnson’s worry about Biden.

Alan Clark ● 2180d

It's Johnsons job to worry, not ours and regarding Trump it's starting to sound like better the devil we knew.

Janice Evans ● 2180d

"..regarding Trump it's starting to sound like better the devil we knew"Given how erratic Trump is, at least with Biden there is a chance of getting a better idea of what to expect from day to day and being able to plan accordingly.

Richard Greenhough ● 2180d

True Richard.

Janice Evans ● 2180d

Trump erratic? He is a highly intelligent person as we should all know. Just one of his many sayings was this:"Water is wet from the standpoint of water". I doubt even if Einstein managed to work that one out. Yet Americans voted for him in their millions. Why?

Brian Coyle ● 2180d

Thought it was because he was good for business and the economy.

Janice Evans ● 2180d

"Good for the business and economy"? But the guy is a complete and utter prat. Or is it that so many Americans give a very good impression of being as thick as two very short planks? After all, millions voted for him...

Brian Coyle ● 2180d

There was a time when I took some note of this biased drivel.AC used to have reasoned arguments, not any moreIt stopped recently, but later than the the failed politicians (aka amongst others, George Brown and Anna Soubry) started trying to reenter the arena, yesterday's people.Mind you, GB has a good haircut, as seen on GMB this morning.  Did he get that during lockdown?

James Roy ● 2180d

He played the classic strong leader. He did anything to give that impression. It worked in Hungary, India, Russia, Brazil. Add in fear mongering - against migrants, against socialism. against Chinese imports. Its not what he did, it is what he said (even if what he said was rubbish). And he promised a new American greatness. He implied its ok not to wear masks amidst Covid. And ok for armed men to storm a state building.What's the expression about fooling some of the people all of the time. He even got more votes this election than last.

Alan Clark ● 2180d

Looked more like he'd had a visit from a Fife sheep-shearer on BBC Breakfast.

Richard Greenhough ● 2180d

The exchanges are not paying out on Biden "If there is any material change to the established role or any ambiguity as to who occupies the position, then Betfair may determine, using its reasonable discretion, how to settle the market based on all the information available to it at the relevant time." "We can't disclose any further information at the moment given the circumstance, unfortunately" Maybe we are jumping the gun,i blooming hope. not but ive never seen these political markets put on hold for a setlement. But we take the media and the official call as final. Could roll on for ages before people are paid

Julian Pavey ● 2180d

Just proves my point, and shows how utterly stupid so many Americans are. I've been trying for years to find out from where they acquired, over 200 years ago, and counting, their ingrained, built in stupidity. It still evades me.

Brian Coyle ● 2180d

385k avaialble @ 1.06 on biden to win as market is still open to who is the next president That is a 5% return

Julian Pavey ● 2180d

What serious person gives a fig about these stupid betting markets?

Robert Fish ● 2180d

Perhaps the fact that so many people in this country thought Britain Trump might be a good leader should give you a clue what the origin is?

Francis Rowe ● 2180d

Yes Brian, ironic in't it?

Keith Iddon ● 2180d

Who's Britain Trump?

Brian Coyle ● 2180d

You and possibly others maybe

Julian Pavey ● 2180d

Looks like Trump is going to ‘do a Miller’ and contest the vote in the courts. Always a sad sign when someone doesn’t accept a democratic result and takes to the courts.

Russell Pearson ● 2180d

There's no similarity whatsoever between Trump's recourse to law and Gina Miller's. Gina Miller was seeking confirmation of the fact that Theresa May needed parliamentary approval to invoke Article 50. It was an important case about the limitations of crown privilege and the supremacy of parliament, nothing to do with contesting the vote.

Robert Fish ● 2180d

It was a humbug case of trying to undermine democracy. Just as Trump will try, and hopefully fail too.

Russell Pearson ● 2180d

The humbug is all yours. What you consider trying to undermine democracy was defending the constitution from subversion by a government which had no regard for parliamentary sovereignty. It's ironic that those who employed sovereignty as a justification for exiting the EU were so cavalier about respecting parliamentary sovereignty. And your comparison between Miller and Trump is doubly wrong for the fact that, whereas Trump will no doubt fail in his recourse to law, she won twice in the Supreme Court.

Robert Fish ● 2180d

Russel would appear to have an information deficit. He thinks Miller was subverting democracy. He presumably thinks that proroguing parliament was supporting democracy. He should vote Trump.

Alan Clark ● 2180d

I’m amused by the similarities - a democratic vote that’s not accepted, so the defeated run to the courts. Will leave you to chortle on, and get some 🍿

Russell Pearson ● 2180d

We are so happy that you, in your failed comprehension, are amused. Talk us through your logic again please. Miller was wrong because...  Trump is right because...  Johnson had a basis for prorogue because... No empty slogans please.

Alan Clark ● 2180d

“ We are so happy that you, in your failed comprehension, are amused. Talk us through your logic again please. Miller was wrong because...  Trump is right because...  Johnson had a basis for prorogue because... No empty slogans please.”That sounds like one of Trump’s Tweets.

Russell Pearson ● 2179d

So no answer. Ta. That simply confirms that you spout empty claims with zero substance or content. I suggest you try harder at thinking things through and rely less on empty claims. When you have built an argument do please reply. With something worth sharing.

Alan Clark ● 2179d

I suggest you have a think about pompous hypocrisy. Now I normally don’t intrude on this particular echo chamber, but couldn’t resist a tap on the tub, as it was getting a bit too hilarious. It’s great fun watching the gnashing of gums. Sorry for intruding.

Russell Pearson ● 2179d

Thanks for your contribution. Your last one said:I’m not here much. I had nothing to add. I’ve no justification for what I did add. Or did I miss a significant comment?

Alan Clark ● 2179d

To provide more balance:It’s easy to confuse UK and US legal claims about voting issues. Easy but wrong. If you think Miller’s action is on the same plain as Trump’s actions then ask. It can be explained.

Alan Clark ● 2179d

Gordon rather than George I presume!

Andrew Jones ● 2179d

Well, Brian, given America was borne of Britain perhaps that ingrained stubborness started here on this isle? And seen alive and well in comments like yours.As for the built-in stupidity that's anyone's guess. But plenty of that to go around, too.Just a thought.

David Lesniak ● 2179d

It is worth bearing in mind the following: It's very easy to threaten a legal case, it is an awful lot harder to win one, as Trump is discovering. He has used court action previously to bully people without his resources, the US constitution isn't particularly susceptible to bullying. For a legal case to be won there needs to be substantial evidence and a compelling legal argument. One does not win a case on disappointment, or by going to the courts out of a fit of anti-democratic pique, as you seem to be positing. The Gina Miller case was based on the supremacy of parliament over the executive, had there not been a case to answer she would have lost it.So far Trump has brought 10 court actions in various states, all have been thrown out. Given the numbers involved it doesn't seem any legal challenge he may bring will stand any chance of success. It's worth considering that the right-wing Heritage Foundation, after examining 36 years of mail-in ballots, found only 1,285 cases of voter fraud out of nearly two billion votes cast — a rate of 0.0000007 percent. That’s about the same probability as being hit by an asteroid.Other numbers to reflect on are the following: The *largest* recount swing in US history was 1,247 votes in Florida in 2000. Biden’s *smallest* margin right now is 10,000+ votes in Georgia — a state he doesn’t need for an electoral college majority. His smallest margin in a must-win state is over 20,000 votes in Wisconsin.The two situations are not remotely similar.

Huw Burford-Taylor ● 2179d

The USA elected Trump, we elected Johnson with a whacking majority. I don’t think the UK is in a position to criticise American voters particularly.

Stewart Jones ● 2179d

Firstly, the Labour Party did not offer a viable alternative Prime Minister at the last two UK General Elections. Hillary Clinton was a viable alternative President and won the popular vote in 2016, losing out only to the vagaries of the electoral college system. Biden likewise was a viable alternative this time round. With those choices on offer, it seems fair to criticise the 70-odd million Americans who still thought Trump was the better option.Secondly, comparisons between Johnson and Trump are all too easy for those who dislike the Conservative Party, whoever is leading it. Yes, they're both blond, they both have an eye for the ladies and they represent the main right of centre parties in their respective countries. However, the idea of Johnson refusing to admit defeat when it is staring him in the face is ludicrous, and when he has been in office, he has refrained from making the sort of inflammatory statements that have characterised Trump's tweets. When the time comes for him to go, whether due to a backbench revolt or to electoral defeat, I would expect him to leave with a degree of dignity that seems to be completely beyond Trump.

Richard Greenhough ● 2179d

I thought that Mr Coyle was making a very valid point. He is unable to understand how so many millions could have voted for empty promises to make their country great again when all the evidence was that such a vote would in fact be more damaging. And you’ve got to agree with that.

Alan Clark ● 2179d

Thanks Huw for that. Your final line is simply an unavoidable statement of fact.

Andrew Jones ● 2179d

Johnson will be relieved to go. He wanted to be PM and to have been PM, it’s the bit in the middle he isn’t too bothered about.Criticising Johnson does not equate to suggesting that one supports Corbyn. And it was Trump who called Johnson ‘Britain Trump’An ‘eye for the ladies’’ ? Is that another way of saying they had multiple affairs (and still are), unacknowledged children and share ‘locker room’ talk. Boys will be boys after all.  (Corbyn is known as having an eye for the ladies too. )

Stewart Jones ● 2179d

The point might be there but the tone and compassion are wholly lacking. Sadly.I don't think you can "criticize" and use terms like "built-in stupidty" if there is any chance to overcome the current dynamics both here in the UK, in Chiswick to be specific and obvioulsy not in the States.70 million people are not all stupid. Surely there may be some thrown in there as there would be on any side of the equation. But many of them still felt ignored enough by the Democrats that they voted the other way. And I'm sure the same could be said for some that voted for Biden.

David Lesniak ● 2179d

Rather than lampoon those who voted Tory,particularly northerners who voted that way for the first time,perhaps you might aim your vitriol at Labour. Perhaps if they had not spent the last 10 years gazing at their own navel and debating ideologies amongst themselves and  listening to the Islington media studies mafia,they might have done something for the people you ridicule.Surely they could see council seats and mayoralties were being lost in their heartlands over those years. Corbyn was a non starter.

Keith Iddon ● 2179d

"And it was Trump who called Johnson ‘Britain Trump’"Trump also called the President of Mexico "Juan Trump" and the President of Brazil "Trump of the Tropics", as well as calling Kim Jong Un "Little Rocket Man". Nearer to home he called Alex Salmond "Mad Alex" and Nigel Farage "The King of Europe". So a nickname bestowed on someone by DumbAss Donald doesn't really mean a lot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nicknames_used_by_Donald_Trump

Richard Greenhough ● 2179d