Forum Topic

Is extending the Congestion Charge such a bad thing?

I don't know many people who live inside the current congestion charge zone but those that do seem to think it is a great thing.From a purely selfish perspective, might it have some advantages for people living in Chiswick? As I understand it with the residents discount it will cost us £1.50 per day that you use the car and in most cases that will only apply if we cross to the other side of the North Circular.If there is a single zone for the whole of London that means that we can drive into central London at no charge again - not that there will be many reasons to do so but it is nice to know you can.It will also substantially reduce traffic in the area and make a jam a rarity.Of course I appreciate there are a host of other reasons that it is a completely insane idea not least because it will force lots of people onto public transport at the worst possible time, drive hundreds if not thousands of businesses to the wall and cause an increase in food costs therefore hitting the poorest hardest but I can't see how it would be a personal disaster for me or anyone else on a reasonable income who doesn't rely on the car to get to work or to do their job. I 100% believe that this government is Machiavellean and unprincipled enough to force the change on Sadiq Khan in a bid to undermine his election chances and I don't need much convincing that this is being driven by personal animosity towards him from Andrew Gilligan the actual Minister for Transport. However, I also believe that this government is institutionally stupid and all their plans will inevitably backfire so it could end up that people either recognise what they are up to and blame them for the consequences or are quietly pleased that the Zone 3-6 riff-raff are being kept off our streets just as residents of the original zone were happy to be rid of Zone 2 riff raff like us.

Francis Rowe ● 2205d44 Comments

From the TfL website...'As part of temporary changes to the Congestion Charge, the residents' discount is closed to new applicants.'

Ken Munn ● 2205d

I'm no fan of Mayor Khan but it looks like joined up thinking is not much in evidence.Have you considered how many turnings there would be off the North and South Circulars? Price the cost of erecting a camera and multiply that by the thousands of turn offs. Do you really think that will happen?  If cleaning some paint of Churchill's statue cost £1600 then erecting a camera and installing the necessary power supplies would easily bring that figure closer to £10,000. Times that by just 1,000 and you are just scratching the surface. Nothing but blackmail by the Government.As for reducing traffic - dream on. People who drive into the zone are mostly working and can pass on the charge to customers. The "larger" cars will be driven by high earners who will have parking facilities (and no doubt zone charges) paid for by their company.

Derek Hill ● 2205d

Ken, are you seriously suggesting they would extend the C-Charge Zone and not exempt residents?

Francis Rowe ● 2205d

I guess the latest proposal from central government is to force TfL to extend the congestion charge zone out to the Circular Roads so it coincides with the proposed ULEZ extension planned to start in October 2021.  As others have suggested, this will need many thousands more cameras to detect traffic entering and leaving the enlarged zone, and, in the case of the ULEZ charge, to detect traffic moving about inside the zone, for no ULEZ discount is proposed.  Whether residents inside the proposed enlarged zone will get a congestion charge discount we don't know.  The reference on the TfL website to stopping the discount 'in August' refers to the price hike and time extension on the existing congestion zone they announced back in June 2020.

Peter Evans ● 2205d

I completely agree with extending the congestion charge to within the north and south circular. Why should drivers be encouraged?

Carl Wynne ● 2205d

"Are you seriously suggesting they would extend the C-Charge Zone and not exempt residents?"That's the plan as I understand it.  If they exempt residents in a bigger zone, people would start driving into town again from places like Chiswick and Hammersmith.I think this is more of a threat to make changes to free travel for pensioners and children more palatable.  The Tories would lose every seat they hold in London if they went ahead with it.

Al Webber ● 2205d

To be fair, drivers have been doing what they can afford with electric vehicles etc.,

Janice Evans ● 2205d

Yes the Congestion Charge should be extended.

Steve Taylor ● 2205d

The congestion charge should be extended to the whole country in the form of road pricing.There should be particularly punitive rates in all national parks and AONBs.

Will Watson ● 2205d

Seriously? You support £25/per day (as of Oct w/ULEZ) just to park in front of your house? What privilege!! The elderly on fixed incomes are going to buy a high priced new electric car when they have a perfectly good one in the drive? What about those just trying to get kids to activities? And some of you might want to pay the surcharge for the window cleaners to drive in - or the tree-trimmers or the appliance repairman - but for many this will make London’s residential neighborhoods unlivable. The closed streets are bad enough - adding a daily charge just to sit in queues? The local businesses will move from life support to flatlined.

John Dorn ● 2205d

Bad idea because public transport in outer London is inadequate. My daily commute by car to NW London is about 30min each way. By public transport 90 min each way much of it in crowded Tubes or trains I thought we were meant to avoid right now. And I don’t fancy commuting 3hrs a day so in the longer term may have to change jobs or move house.

David Turner ● 2205d

I agree John, many ordinary people who need or just want use of a car will be priced out of the inner suburbs.

David Turner ● 2205d

Great idea, but depends on details. Would expect to be a lower level e.g. £10, 90% resident discount, so £1 a day. Would discourage through traffic from outside N Circular and unnecessary car use. Brilliant. Take down the Staveley Road barriers and the GP cameras.

Paul Green ● 2205d

This is an utterly stupid idea.  There are so many places that would need cameras it would be extremely costly to implement, you would also need to have a camera photographing every single vehicle on the A4 elevated section that did not take the Chiswick roundabout exit.Finally it would make traffic in parts of Chiswick worse.  Consider the weekly shop for a family of 4.  If it is big enough or heavy enough to need a car rather than use Chiswick Sainsbury's where the car parking has always been busy and the spaces are a little tight, the obvious alternatives are Brentford Tesco's or Richmond Sainsbury's which both have masses of parking and larger parking spaces.  Both of those are outside of the north/south circular (not by much).  If it is an extra £1 then most probably will pay it, if it is £10 then even more people will prefer to shop at Chiswick Sainsbury's thereby increasing traffic on roads LBH have already overloaded by cack handed LTN schemes

Justin Stephenson ● 2205d

Just a few other reasons why this is such a bad idea.1. Chiswick Golfers will have to pay the charge to go to their local club - that could kill the viability of some clubs2. Chiswick DIY'ers will have to pay the charge to go to Brentford B&Q or Homebase.3. Obviously shopping in Brentford will incur a charge.4. Any parents whose children play rugby will be paying the charge for every game and practice sessionFor those that can afford it the obvious solution would be to buy an EV which is exempt from the charge.  Whilst I am all in favour of encouraging adoption of EVs I have a horrible feeling that in Chiswick what will happen is people keep their big cars and buy a small EV for those small journeys so we end up increasing the number of cars (and probably the number being parked on residential streets)

Justin Stephenson ● 2205d

As far as I am aware the suspension of issuing new residents permits in the existing zone is temporary and due to TfL having furloughed lots of the staff who processed applications. These workers would obviously have returned by the time any extension of the congestion charge was implemented.I am also told that, except in a few circumstances, a resident doesn't incur the charge if they drive within the zone.Therefore, assuming exemption from the ULEZ charge the cost of going to play a round of golf, shopping at B&Q or taking the kids to rugby would be £1.50.There are lots of reasons why the extension of the plan would be totally bonkers but, for a many people in Chiswick it would significantly improve their quality of life.Think you are right about EVs particularly with the tax breaks available to higher rate tax payers now available.  It highlights the other big issue with the charge - that eventually it will only be paid by low to middle income earners making it even more regressive than a flat rate charge would normally be.

Francis Rowe ● 2205d

I agree. But the proposal does not go far enough. It should go all the way to M25!

Alex Shpinkov ● 2205d

The cameras may be coming anyway for the ULEZ extension.  They would probably use the same cameras for both.

Al Webber ● 2205d

Are there details of the proposed plan? I thought the charge would be £15 every day you used a car. Even if there is a discount for staying within the zone it wouldn’t help people like me who commute from within the zone to outside the zone. I just can’t afford £15 per day to travel to work. Alternative travel options are not realistic as London travel is largely organised for commuters who travel into the centre. There must be thousands of people in my situation.

David Turner ● 2205d

I think all vehicles except electric should be banned, though horses and carriages could also be allowed.

Chris Dakers ● 2205d

Exactly. They are hardly going to remove all the cameras installed for the existing CCZ so if they do extend the CCZ, there may be two charge zones, so residents in the outer CCZ would still get charged for entering the inner CCZ.Not unlike tube charging zones.

Michael Robinson ● 2205d

So for golfers or parents whose children play at Chiswick Grasshoppers and maybe do some DIY that will cost them an extra £300-400 a year.I agree that for the rich this will not be an issue even if they do not buy an EV, £300 is pocket change for them.  For those on low incomes or fixed incomes,and many pensioners do play golf or need a car to do the shopping because they cannot handle large or heavy loads, this will be a major burden

Justin Stephenson ● 2205d

"I think all vehicles except electric should be banned, though horses and carriages could also be allowed."Such an enlightened and sympathetic view - NOT  ! Perhaps you are a rich or a young, healthy and fit person who's able to take advantage of these options ? Many people don't fit into either of those categories and need their car, cant afford to buy an EV, use public transport or physically manage a Pony and Trap.Your problem is that you haven't thought, but just posted your idealistic, utopian view,not everything is black and white, shades of grey exist in the real world.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2204d

The planned extended ULEZ scheme proposes no discount if you live within the zone. That means if you just drive your car round the corner, it's a tenner or more, though how they'll detect all these traffic movements I don't know. So keeping a non-compliant car could cost up to £4000 a year, which would cover the cost of replacing it with a second hand but compliant petrol car.  If there's to be no 'internal' discount for the extended congestion charge - details to follow? - that could be another £4000 a year which it might not be so easy to avoid, unless we're forced to go electric at great expense and with no proper refuelling infrastructure. Bring back public transport! Or I'll have to get a horse!

Peter Evans ● 2204d

Many have suggested they'll need lots more cameras to track vehicle movements inside the extended Zones, but there are lots of ANPR cameras in London already that could be used. Maybe those Chiswickians keen to have ANPR cameras to keep traffic out of their local streets will change their tune when those same cameras are used to charge them for driving in their own neighbourhood.

Peter Evans ● 2204d

According to today's FT, Khan is dead against the proposal which is coming from the Treasury. Khan/TfL is asking for more money to keep TfL going because with a BIG drop in fare revenues it's losing money hand over fist. Treasury is saying OK, but quid pro quo, drop free travel for oldies and youngsters, expand the CC zone to the N&S circs.BTW - the cameras will exist because they be installed for expanded ULEZ.

Ken Munn ● 2204d

"because with a BIG drop in fare revenues it's losing money hand over fist"Again I say charge cyclists. If they don't want to pay then they always have the alternative of using the tube, bus, car or car service. In which case revenue will be generated. Regarding car services, jobs will be sustained. Or walking is always an option.Otherwise, Ken, as you've said TfL is losing money hand over fist and yet more and more of London's expensive real estate is being given away for free. It doesn't make economic sense. If cyclists are so eager to do their part to help, now is a good time. Refusing not to just screams of being selfish. You also have to consider what this will do to your average contractor and the like. If they are traveling in and out of the zone daily they will either have to eat that cost (which they often can't) or pass it on to the customer.

David Lesniak ● 2204d

It's a congestion charge. Cyclists don't cause congestion, drivers do.

Ken Munn ● 2204d

'It's a congestion charge. Cyclists don't cause congestion, drivers do'Not all drivers even pay the congestion charge,  Hybrid and EV's are exempt and there are plenty of options to choose from to meet that exemption criteria.

Matthew Swain ● 2204d

But Ken, when you and your chums get your wish and majority of cars, vans and lorrys have gone TfL, 'Ghengis' Khan and the Government will need to raise revenue from somewhere  n'est past ?In your utopian world of billions of cyclists, who do you think will be the target of their financial dreams ? 🚴‍♂️🚴‍♂️🚴‍♂️ ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2204d

Central government obviously has a thing against Mayor Khan, particularly with election time coming up next May, though the Tory mayoral candidate (who he?) has come out against this scheme as well. In see the government is pumping £3.5 billion into supporting national rail services without any such onerous conditions.

Peter Evans ● 2204d

Drivers on there own don’t cause congestion, they need to be in what is call a vehicle. If you have a bad road system as we have in Hounslow then you can have a small amount of vehicles causing congestion in certain areas because the local authority has constructed copies of the Berlin Walls in quiet residential roads.I bet they don’t have Berlin Walls in France, if they did you would probably have the residents Rioting by now.

Bernard Allen ● 2204d

Matthew, why are you anti-business?As you well know, businesses are challenged beyond belief at the moment. And you insinuate they should opt to invest at a time when keeping the lights on is the priority to protect jobs and the community.SME businesses should be exempt. Especially after the likes of Amazon dodged yet another tax responsibility. But please, Matthew, keep sticking it to the little guys to achieve your goal. Well done.

David Lesniak ● 2204d

Someone who has to go regularly to the West Mid for outpatient appointments would now have to pay the congestion charge. Even if it is not the full £15 everytime it is still an extra cost on top of the expensive parking charges.I'll assume that compliance and administration of the charges will be done online with no allowance made for people who stuggle with technology and there will be no mercy for anyone inadvertently not filling in all the right forms and incurring a charge which will be the equivalent of the larger part of their weekly disposable income.

Diane Brown ● 2202d

"I bet they don’t have Berlin Walls in France, if they did you would probably have the residents Rioting by now."They just ban 50% of cars entirely:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26599010

Al Webber ● 2202d

"Not all drivers even pay the congestion charge,  Hybrid and EV's are exempt and there are plenty of options to choose from to meet that exemption criteria."Matthew, please explain to us how elderly people with mobility problems, can't use bikes, are on limited pensions and who can't afford to buy EV's but need their cars are going to cope ?Also local businesses who do deliveries to their customers and / or need to go to wholesalers, how are they going to afford the extra O/H's that extending the CC zone will cost them ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2202d

The country is in such massive debt that without doubt they are coming for your money if you've got any left. Raising general taxation is an electoral suicide note so look out for ever more stealth taxes. Anything to do with cars is an old favourite. Moving house and dying are also popular revenue streams. As an aside I have never understood how any vehicle can escape paying the congestion charge because of its "green" credentials. It still takes up the same amount of space on the road and therefore adds to the congestion. If it is supposed to be a pollution tax then let's call it by its proper name. I wonder what Tfl will  do for pocket money when we're all hydrogen powered? (Joke)

Bruce Hammal ● 2202d

Diane, it appears every move they make is to make life more difficult for the elderly and disabled and expect them to move away 😏

Janice Evans ● 2201d

TFL Had money problems before Covid. It's another one of those departments that's top heavy with management that haven't got a clue how to manage. HP comes from a mate who works for them and now they want the good old motorist to bale them out.

Brian Green ● 2201d

Yes, terrible money problems inherited by Khan from Johnson who’s never been on a bus in his life.

Stewart Jones ● 2201d

'Yes, terrible money problems inherited by Khan from Johnson who’s never been on a bus in his life.'In fairness, Johnson likes to build models of buses out of cardboard,  so there's that...

Matthew Swain ● 2201d

"They just ban 50% of cars entirely".And today they have announced the removal of almost half of the on-street parking spaces in Paris to free up a surface area of 65 hectares or three times the size of the Jardin du Luxembourg.A strongly opposed minority will complain very loudly and will hold demsontrations in the centre of the city but they will just get on with it like they did with the building of nearly 900 miles of cycle lanes, the closure of the right bank of the Seine to cars and then in May this year suddenly during lockdown the Rue de Rivoli, a major east/west thoroughfare through the centre of Paris. And the strongly opposed minority will scratch their heads when politicians making these manifesto pledges keep getting elected and keep doing more of it.And the minority in Chiswick, when they realise what is actually happening there, will say "but this isn't Paris" just like the minority in Paris used to say "mais c'est pas Amsterdam" before two terms of Anne Hidalgo. Bof!

Paul Campbell ● 2201d

Most of my journeys are by bike, but there are times when a car is necessary.  When things are back to normal, there will be times when I need to carry a guitar, an amplifier, and a board of effects pedals.  I can't do that on my bike.If the C Charge is extended out this far, then it could me £15 to drive a mile to church if I am playing on a Sunday.  That's just wrong.We have to reduce the number of car journeys, but there have to be better ways of doing it.  In the short term, a 5p increase in petrol duty, and 10p increase in diesel duty would be good.  (More for diesel as it gives off more NO2 and nasty particulates).  After that have fuel duty go up by 2p per year indefinitely.In the long term, bike parking and making it compulsory for employers to provide showers at work would be help a lot.  From January, we will no longer be bound by EU standards, so we could adopt the Canadian standard on electric bikes (assistance up to 20 mph rather than 15mph).  That would make electric bikes a much more attractive proposition as an alternative to the car for a lot of commuters.Some investment in infrastructure would also help, but it needs to be targeted.  Improve the design of junctions (which is where most bad accidents happen) and you will get far bigger safety improvements for your money.

Al Webber ● 2201d

"From January, we will no longer be bound by EU standards, so we could adopt the Canadian standard on electric bikes (assistance up to 20 mph rather than 15mph).  That would make electric bikes a much more attractive proposition as an alternative to the car for a lot of commuters."Indeed. Electric bike are the future for congested cities. I welcome the integration.

Steve Taylor ● 2201d