Forum Topic

Vanessa Smith · 10/15/2020 14:56:00

new.ChiswickW4.com Communtity Forum Topic posting

Hounslow's answer to Dominic Cummings?

For those familiar with the saga of the cladding/painting houses on two estates in Isleworth and the unhappiness of tenants and neighbours over the chosen colour on some homes, the role of the planning department in this was also being questioned. Advice from an independent source was that no planning permission was required and the work could have been done under permitted development.A Freedom of Information request to ascertain why Hounslow's housing and planning departments had gone down this road was returned with an answer that confirmed that our advice was indeed correct, but still did not answer the question as to why this was done. We pointed out that the information in the FOI was in fact incorrect so therefore there was no need at all for planning permission and we again asked for an explanation of their actions. Having gone round in ever decreasing circles and still not getting the courtesy of an straightforward answer I wrote to one of the Isleworth councillors, copying in the cabinet member for housing who had previously poo-pood residents complaints and asked that they personally asked planning and housing for an answer. Today I am told that our queries are being treated as a Stage 1 complaint, as we had not asked to go down this route I asked why this was happening without our agreement? The answer staggered me:"I have asked firmly and frankly for answers to these questions multiple times. I have also made my opinion very clear on this colour scheme. Peter Matthew has been very clear he will only deal with further questions and concerns as a Stage 1 complaint."So, an elected member is letting a council officer, a paid borough employee dictate what he will and won't do, since when did we elect officers? We elect councillors to act as our representatives and advocates not to stand for this nonsense. I find this absolutely outrageous, and it is clear that this officer will use the council's appallingly slow and ineffective complaints process as an opportunity to keep kicking this matter into the long grass. There have been many justified comments about how our P.M. is having his plonker pulled by one Dominic Cummings - well here we have the Hounslow version. What is wrong with the people we elect?It is quite simple - why did the housing department let planning persuade them they needed planning permission for work that could have been carried out under permitted development? Why did the affected homes have the removal of their permitted development rights inserted as a condition of the planning permission? Why were planning officers

Vanessa Smith ● 2206d30 Comments

Do you know whether the estate residents who had bought their houses were offered the chance to take part in the cladding scheme (and to pay for it ?). The estate looks weird now with the mustard-coloured cladded council properties immediately next to unclad privately-owned houses.

Richard Greenhough ● 2206d

No they weren't and I'm not sure many of them would have taken up the offer had it been made. A few of us though have had our homes done of our own accord and painted in OUR choice of colour. In spite of the assertions of the 'project manager' that we would not be allowed to unless we got planning permission - moron.

Vanessa Smith ● 2206d

Whatever the ins and outs are, I think it very unfair of you to name the council officer concerned on a public forum. He Is hardly in a position to defend himself. And to compare his actions over getting a few houses painted a colour that you don’t like with eugenecist is quite frankly absurd.I also don’t understand why you are complaining about the Council but do not want to use the Complaints procedure. Councillors do not instruct officers and the officer concerned is perfectly within his rights to insist that the procedures and protocols (that the councillors would have voted for) are stuck to..

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

Yes, well when you have put up with the amount of obfuscation and discourtesy as we have you may think differently. I thought we elected councillors to represent us - I don't know if you have ever used the complaints procedure? A colleague is chasing hers up that she made in February, it's a mechanism for kicking the can down the road when people don't want to be accountable. I also think that councillors can and do instruct officers, an officer's role is to advise and support not to dictate.

Vanessa Smith ● 2206d

Dominic Cummings family have not paid Council tax on a property built without permission since 2002. Only now will they have to start. Eighteen years backlog of council tax is not required to be paid.

Chris Dakers ● 2206d

Years ago the local council where I lived then decided to offer all the houses in the road the chance to be re-roofed - switching traditional mineral slates for artificial ones - at a subsidised price. That was why I wondered if the cladding/insulation had been offered to the private home owners, because the resultant mix looks like a real dogs' dinner - so much so that I think the planners should have been able to step in and get the aesthetics of the scheme sorted properly before it went ahead.

Richard Greenhough ● 2206d

Councillors cannot instruct officers. I know of councillors who have tried to get officers to act unlawfully (through Ignorance rather than criminality) From what you say , this officer is saying that the correct procedures need to be followed. That’s not dictating.I’m sure it’s frustrating but there are clear rules as to how complaints are dealt with. By naming the said officer on a public forum you might be running the risk of seeming vexatious which will seriously undermine your case(which on the face of it seems pretty good anyway)

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

Using the Hounslow complaints procedure can take a very long time.I have followed the procedure twice. I only followed it when I could not achieve action from officers. One complaint eventually went to the Local Authority Ombudsman who formally contacted Hounslow Council. Satisfactory action then took place within days.

Chris Dakers ● 2206d

I have no doubt that there are councillors who do not act properly, but that does not get away from the fact that we elect people to act as advocates for their constituents. Councillors formulate policies with the professional advice of officers which they are at liberty to ignore if they so wish. I have asked one of my councillors to act on my behalf by asking the questions that a reply to an FOI request got wrong. Now, I don't know whether this misinformation was incompetence or deliberate, either way I am entitled to know, just because an officer doesn't want to have to come clean and wishes to hide behind a long, drawn out and frankly unsatisfactory process does not make it right. Several of us have gone through all the proper processes up until now and it's got us precisely nowhere, this is mickey taking and then some. I don't know about vexatious - more vexed I think. There are questions to answer is it so unreasonable to expect the correct answers?

Vanessa Smith ● 2206d

As always with these types of dispute with civil service (in this case local govt but the principle is the same) I am reminded of "Yes Minister".The fact that the planning officer is unable to explain why they went down a particular route and is requiring it to be dealt with via a stage 1 complaint is easy to understand from a "Yes Minister" perspective. The policy decision was undoubtedly either cock up or conspiracy (ie a deliberate policy, even if contrary to the law, which the planning dept & housing dept do not wish to admit to). As per innumerable Yes Minister episodes and quotes, the civil service reaction to potentially being found out is to kick the can down the road - official investigations being ideal for that because they will be run by your fellow civil servants who can be relied upon not to rat you out. There is no reason to assume local govt officers operate any differently

Justin Stephenson ● 2206d

It’s not unreasonable to expect answers. You’ve been responded to but you don’t like what they’ve said. So the next stage is the complaints process. If they don’t act within the stated timeframe then the Ombudsman is the next step. Your councillor knows that or should know that. You are publicly trashing someone’s professional reputation. He might have acted improperly but trial on a public forum where the officer has no right of reply is not right. I agree with so many of your comments on so many subjects but we’ll just have to acknowledge differing approaches on this subject!

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

I’d prefer not to rely on an 80’s comedy programme to feel terribly well informed about public servants in 2020. But that’s your call.

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

Snipey to the last

Claire Moran ● 2206d

Perhaps address the issue we’re discussing?

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

See no problem with naming people involved if you are not locked in some legal battle but agree that it could go against your case as Stuart had mention.

Janice Evans ● 2206d

Mean Stewart.

Janice Evans ● 2206d

There is some debate in postings above about whether Councillors can instruct Officers.Having worked for a Council at a level which included regular Councillor and MP contact ANYONE who believes that Officers do not take instruction from them is living in cloud-cuckoo land. Cross them and your career is done for.

Jeffrey Cope ● 2206d

I was looking at these houses this morning - there are numerous semi-detached pairs where one has cladding and one does not, and rows of four with numbers 1 and 3 cladded and 2 and 4 not. Presumably the unclad houses are those previously purchased by their owners and the clad ones those still owned by the council, which is now far more obvious a divide than previously. Quite apart from the ugly mustard yellow paint scheme enforced on the newly-clad houses, the mix of clad and not-clad houses just looks a mess, and cannot be the most effective way to achieve the desired insulation improvements. Not one of LBH's finest efforts.

Richard Greenhough ● 2206d

But as evidenced in this case the officer is not taking instruction from the councillor.

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

That was how I read it, no idea of the workings of Councils by the way soYou know more than me for sure.

Janice Evans ● 2206d

All the above reminds me of my dealings with the local Councils, from Funerals to Parking. They are a law unto themselves and they seem to answer to no one. There attitude is because I can. Which is why I have no time for any of them.

Maggie Dodge ● 2206d

My understanding is that committees of Cllrs have to approve senior officer appointments or promotions so if you cross a Cllr you may be doomed. However, many officers will act as they will and sit it out because Cllrs aren't there forever!! It is a fact that there are many weak cllrs and it is a fact that many officers are pedantic jobsworths who thrive on the little power they have with the full knowledge that they would never get a job in the private sector with the same perks, pension, holidays etc.

Steve Taylor ● 2206d

"I think it very unfair of you to name the council officer concerned on a public forum. He Is hardly in a position to defend himself."Why? He is in public office. If he needs to be named and shamed, so be it. He can defend himself on the same public forum if he wants to.

Steve Taylor ● 2206d

'There is some debate in postings above about whether Councillors can instruct Officers.Having worked for a Council at a level which included regular Councillor and MP contact ANYONE who believes that Officers do not take instruction from them is living in cloud-cuckoo land. Cross them and your career is done for.'I have to say I was going on my 16 years as an elected councillor in Hounslow and my husband's job as a local government officer at several boroughs. I'm not sure I'd agree with your last sentence, but the approach used to be that you worked together with officers' professional guidance but that the final decision lay with elected members. I can only remember one real instance of an officer refusing to give me and a ward colleague information that a constituent had asked us to find out. We went straight to the Borough Solicitor (inthe days before outsourcing) explained the issue, and he 'phoned the officer there and then - an assistant director of service, and explained that as elected councillors there was 'a need to know' and he had to comply with our request, which he did.Had an officer spoken to me as this one has to a member, in this instance I'd have gone to the Chief executive and also the Leader. I have used the proper FOI process, the fact Hounslow are unable, unwilling, to comply by givng me the information I actually asked for doesn't seem to me to be a case of me - yet again, having to jump through the hoops a paid employee of the borough decides he wants me to.

Vanessa Smith ● 2206d

He’s hardly Dominic Cummings though, is he?

Stewart Jones ● 2206d

It is the same principle, where you have an unelected person calling the shots, it is anti democratic. Tail wagging dog - whether it be government or local council, either way it is not right.

Vanessa Smith ● 2206d

Well it is good that he has been named and shamed.

Steve Taylor ● 2205d

Don't think these people know what shame is, too arrogant.

Vanessa Smith ● 2205d

I agree with Vanessa in that it isn't the case that as an Officer if you 'cross' Councillors you're done for. As a Team Leader at several LPA's I had many ups and downs with Councillors, but there was always mutual respect and I was never compelled to do anything by Councillors.It's like any relationship, if you're weak/easily led then you'll get exploited. And I've seen that happen many times. As Steve says there are many people I worked with in the public sector who, to be blunt, couldn't hack it in the private sector, they are 'comfortable' doing what they do and if that what makes them happy then so be it (I call one London Borough a 'retirement home' for 'comfortable' planning officers).Some Officers, regardless of their place within the hierarchy, as little more than nodding dogs to Members, simply because they haven't got the backbone. Been there, seen it, stood up to it, got the 5 figure pay off to prove it...

Adam Beamish ● 2205d