Forum Topic

Democracy under attack?

I have read a number of threads on this forum regarding traffic measures, which a number of people seem to regard as an assault on either basic democracy or their human rights. Having done some research I am unable to find any reference to the right of an individual to drive a car where and how they want, indeed limiting the use of cars to protect wider society seems sensible – you cannot drive after drinking, you can not drive in manner which is dangerous to others, you must obey speed limits, you must be insured, you must have an appropriate licence  – the list is extensive. Equally, in the UK there are many other things you do not have the right to do - you do not have the right to own hand guns, to use and sell class A drugs or harass and abuse those with whom you disagree – rights I am sure most reasonable people are happy not to have.   The Human Rights Act passed in 1998 by the first Blair government, protects your basic rights it does not give you the right to do whatever you want. Equally, democracy is not a vehicle to allow a vocal minority to dominate a debate; it allows for all citizens the right to lobby their elected representatives, in order to have their views represented, if they are unhappy with the way their views are represented periodic elections offers the opportunity to change their representatives. If your major concern regarding democracy and human rights is based on parking restrictions and restricted entry schemes perhaps a wider perceptive is required. Many infrastructure plans, especially transport, are initially opposed on the basis they will be disasters – the construction of the Underground was vigorously opposed – only for their real value to be realised once complete.

John Stroud ● 2227d45 Comments

This is a facile misrepresntation of what people are saying.Nobody is advocating that they should be allowed to drive where they want when they want. The issue is that major changes are being made by the council with no proper consultation that are having a significantly negative impact. Inconvenience when driving is just one of the many of these impacts but if you think it is the only one or even the most important one for people you haven't been listening to what they are saying.The council have every right to introduce measure through experimental traffic orders and don't need to do a full consultation. That some people might not like them and that they might need tweaking during a period of review is something that is supposed to be built into the system.However, there is an increasing realisation that many of these measures have been introduced as a cover for revenue raising restrictions. The closure of Turnham Green Terrace is already a demonstrable failure and delivers no benefit but huge cost to the community in terms of the damage to local business and the severe deterioration of the environment around Acton Green.The expectation is that despite this self-evident failure, the council will never give up the new revenue stream that it is receiving from cameras which are bringing in huge amounts of cash because the restriction is not working. Similarly, no matter what the outcome of the Grove Park measures, the golden goose that will be the camera on Hartington Road will become a permanent feature.Chiswick already suffered disproportionately in the borough from parking fines, bus lane enforcement and traffic cameras in general. A disproportionate number of these new traffic measures, supposedly related to Covid-19 are being introduced in Chiswick. I suppose you could call this democracy in action. The party with a substantial majority in the borough is making sure that the people who voted for them do not have to pay their full share of covering the council's financial deficit.

Francis Rowe ● 2227d

Paul, you are Tom and others continue to make false and damaging claims and willfully misrepresent what people say. How nice of you to acknowledge that north of the tube lines there is a problem, just earlier you claimed people were going to Ealing because of their LTNs. No they are going to Acton and Ealing as its either quicker or easier or both. The other week you were claiming there is no traffic on South Parade. Please make your mind up, as one of your posts was clearly untrue.I did not say its quicker to drive to Richmond, but it is easier for me to shop there with the new restrictions especially TGT. I do not want to risk a fine and then some lengthy haggling to get out of it. With the gridlock around Turnham Green and queues back onto Sutton Court Road, there are times when it is also quicker. SameI would love to support local shops but I have a lot of commitments so find it easier to combine going to the Sainsburys on the way to Richmond with a stop in the town centre. Same with driving back to Grove Park down Sutton COurt some evenings.The free 30 minutes on TGT was perfect for me before and a great shame its gone. You cannot make it harder for people to shop in Chiswick and then tell them they need to do it, the peak of hypocrisy. Not all of us are mobile and able to cycle or walk far.Thank you Alison for a rational comment from a normal person who I assume has no special interest, just wants to be able to get around the local area. Ken, you are right there are closed shops in Richmond, its a problem everywhere. But everything I hear from local traders in Chiswick is that the new measures are hurting. Tom, you post as if you are some elected arbiter of local transport. Just because you are the member of an interest group that has captured the ear of traffic planners does not give the right to lecture the rest of us.

Paul Green ● 2225d

Yes you are correct Paul C, its very hard at times to tell the zealots apart, so well scripted are you. As ever, you resort to insults to avoid the actual issues. Lets have a look at some of our interactions recently:* I said a month ago that the roads around Turnham Green, especially Sutton Lane but also others, as well as Acton and Bollo Lanes becoming very congested. You claimed these were 'phantom queues'* A few weeks ago you claimed that South Parade was traffic free and called the new closures a success. I pointed out that traffic was quiet that Sunday but you refused to acknowledge it.* Front page articles and many posters highlight the absolute traffic chaos, you choose to ignore this or refuse to accept its causes* People post they now go to Ealing and Acton. You post in your smug manner that it is the LTNs that are attracting them. Someone points out that is clearly not true, you ignore this* You call me out for saying its quicker to drive to Richmond, and then claim you are forced to post to correct this falsehood. Where are all the posts to correct the 100% falsehoods posted by your chums?* The number of people posting and someone pushing back against your pathetic 'High traffic neighbourhood' schemes quip forces you for the first time to admit there is a problem.The last point is the interesting one. For the first time in over a month you admit a very real problem. One that I have warned about from the very start, for which you chose to call me names. Rather than 'monitor' traffic, just reopen TGT. Admit it is pointless and a mistake.I notice how you attack me personally for questioning these stupid schemes and the lobby groups that back them. What about other posters who now shop in Acton and Ealing, do you have the courage to attack them as well. After all, they are committing the same heinous crime as me. Namely finding it too hard to navigate around Chiswick with the new road restrictions and queues. Most of us are struggling in various ways with work and personal issues and the last thing we need is stupid and badly designed schemes making life difficult. I still visit Chiswick shops when I can, but it is now less often.

Paul Green ● 2225d

You are the one calling people names. Read your posts. Just in this thread you’ve used “idiot” and “zealot”. Are you really so lacking in self-awareness? As I’ve said to you before if I could be bothered I’d cite all the names you have called people who disagree with you. It would be a long post.  Your sustained attempts to create an “out-group” of the people who support schemes to reduce traffic are sad, poorly executed and also entirely irrelevant to me. Yes I find it amusing that the most vocal opponents of every scheme in Chiswick that adversely affects drivers celebrate Ealing town centre as a driving destination when 2000 people have marched through it protesting against LTNs and when people are posting death threats to Julian Bell and much more on Nextdoor. I don’t care that you have no sense of humour when it comes to anything on the topic of traffic and get outraged by a joke.  And yes people trying to stop LTN trials are High-Traffic Neighbourhood supporters by definition. It is now common phraseology to describe people who cannot tolerate their driving on residential streets being hindered. Andrew’s point about Acton is different. It is convenient to drive there from Bedford Park and Acton Green. Always has been. A few weeks ago a bloke called KebabGazz tweeted that he had received a PCN for driving on Devonshire Road and that he would now boycott Chiswick and shop and eat in Ealing instead. A week later he admitted on Twitter that he was enraged at the time and was now back in Chiswick and that nothing would keep him away. He said he had learned his lesson. People say things when they are angry and a lot of self-defeating threats of boycotting Chiswick have been made by people on this site. Some people like to grab these and inflate them. Some people try to claim moral superiority by saying they care about local businesses when admitting that they don’t shop at them because they are too busy or don’t like to be inconvenienced a bit. The trials will produce facts. I have a great deal more respect for KebabGazz than people who keep talking down Chiswick in a misguided attempt to save it. Every time I go to South Parade there are no queues of cars.. And I believe people who say there are long queues. Both things are possible. I think that often the queues are caused by other issues on the road network and then they dissipate. It has been like that on that road since I first started going there in 2000 and now there are many more drivers on all of our roads.  I have said the traffic is being monitored and I will await the results of the trial period of a minimum of six months before evaluating whether there are problems or not. And that is the real difference here. I understand the process that the democratically elected government has implemented to create these trials, I admire them for having the vision to reallocate road space and the ambition to aim for permanent behaviour change in how people move about in towns and cities, I support our democratically elected Council for having the courage and leadership to take on the government’s challenge locally in the face of sometimes quite unpleasant opposition and I am happy to see how the trials go so that we can learn from them, adapt and improve.Opponents of the schemes like you are being undemocratic, demanding that the statutory guidance is changed to suit you, trying to stop trials before they start, fighting against unstoppable forces and raging against the wrong opponents. Good luck with that. I’m done arguing with you because you don’t seem to ever be able to grasp that you are arguing with the wrong people.

Paul Campbell ● 2225d

'Andrew’s point about Acton is different. It is convenient to drive there from Bedford Park and Acton Green. Always has been.' That's a complete distortion of the point I was making. Acton used to be further away to drive to. The shopping centre is not as attractive as Chiswick and the choice not as wide so very few people living in Bedford Park or Acton Green would have gone there regularly to shop. The closure of Fishers Lane in particular has changed this — it used to be possible to get to the Sainsbury's car park within 5 minutes using the less busy Belmont Road entrance to the store. Ironically the alternative route around South Parade and Acton Lane is more residential than the road that has been closed off.  Most people in the northern part of Chiswick would have used the Sainsbury's car park when shopping on the High Road because it was free for two hours. On a very regular basis the barriers were not working and, if they were, the staff usually validated your parking even if you haven't done a shop there so a large proportion of the money spent by people parking there was not spent in Sainsbury's. Have you not noticed that there always seem to be more cars in Sainsbury's car park than people in the store? Since the closures Acton Lane/South Parade has regularly been static sometimes back as far a Bedford Corner. As proponents of the scheme predicted, driver behaviour changes when faced with such delays and the assumption is now that it will be quicker to get to Acton than Chiswick. Unfortunately this behaviour change doesn't seem to have been significant enough to mitigate the traffic problems. Just how bad this is for Chiswick High Road retail is obscured by Covid-19 and the general economic situation. Local retailers aren't able to tell you the exact amount of business they have lost due to the closures but they will all assure you it is significant. One thing I never understood about the Turnham Green Terrace closure is who exactly benefits from it. Like Brexiteers, the few people who still believe it is a good idea don't seem to be able to answer this question.




Andrew OSullivan ● 2224d

Paul, people are allowed to have different view points, you are the one who do not seem to like that. It is interesting you acknowledge that the temporary CS9 means reducing traffic flow along the High Road. So we already have huge congestion problems at either end, around Turnham Green Acton Lane and Goldhawk Road. Now we add to this to make CS9 'work'. So more people will avoid the area and congestion will worsen. When the temporary lights caused eastbound queues on the High Road, lots of traffic cut down to Wellesley and up Sutton Lane. So more traffic forced onto residential streets and ironically onto the route of CS9. The stretch along Heathfield Terrace to Sutton Lane will be unusable.People already exposed to high levels of noise and air pollution will suffer even more, and cycling anywhere other than a stretch of the High Road is more challenging.Traffic flows are already down this week since the new WFH guidance, so a 6 month 'trial' coincides perfectly with lockdown restrictions, which may tighten further. THat is no basis for long term policy making, regardless of your views. I predicted the initial chaos and once life returns to normal these schemes will cause utter chaos and unimaginable congestion. Heathrow ramping up, two matches a week at Brentford, Chelsea home games. We have seen this before so its not fear mongering.A community is being cut in half to build a long distance cycle route just when noone is making long distance commuting journeys.

Paul Green ● 2223d