Forum Topic

Chiswick High Road Closed signs?

The signs say CHR is closed this Sunday and that is all they say or have I missed something?It seems to me the only section that needs to close is between Goldhawk Rd and Chiswick Lane at the most.Urgent clarification is needed as to what's what.Perhaps someone knows?

Adrian Irving ● 2229d62 Comments

There's an article on the front page.

Paul Scullion ● 2229d

Be interesting to see what traffic diversions they're proposing, bearing in mind that both Turnham Green Terrace and Devonshire Road are 'closed'.

Peter Evans ● 2229d

The article on the front page says closure between Turnham Green Terrace and Chiswick Lane.The site is between Chiswick Lane and Goldhawk Road so I can make no sense of it.Maybe a councillor can put us straight.

Adrian Irving ● 2229d

As some on here might say "send them down the A4".

Paul Scullion ● 2229d

We've asked Mark Frost directly about this issue. He being the Head of Transport. Also contacted Hanif Khan, Steve Curran and Ruth Cadbury. Also put it out there to those like Michael Robinson and Paul Campbell who are besties with this lot.Got nothing in return. Color me surprised. I specifically asked what would happen to motorists who had no choice but to turn down TGT or Devonshire because the option would be to sit idle in traffic on CHR. Agreed, I'm not sure why the closure is advertised in such a way it would appear to begin at TGT. If so, then even more will be turning at that point. Or folks could just throw it in reverse and back out. Of course.When they installed the cabins the closure was only from Chiswick Lane to Goldhawk and if memory serves they tried to minimize it and some westbound traffic was still able to pass. They did an amazing job in short order and one hopes they will do so again.

David Lesniak ● 2229d

What a to do to remove a loo or two!  Jacque Tati should come back from the dead and star in the film

Jennifer Selig ● 2229d

The article appears to have been updated with more info. Closure is eastbound only. Buses will be diverted TGT > Bath Road > Stamford Brook Road > Goldhawk Road. Diversion of 190 along A4 suggests no access to High Road eastbound from Chiswick Lane.For general traffic there seems to be no response yet from Hounslow but logical diversion route is left at Acton Lane > South Parade > Bath Road then follow same route as buses.Could be messy.

Paul Corcoran ● 2229d

Thank's Paul.The communication of exactly what is happening has been very poor to put it mildly.

Adrian Irving ● 2228d

As I understand it there is a statutory obligation to publicise closures like this but the way Hounslow Council chose to fulfil this duty is to place a notice in the Chronicle and Informer newspaper which isn't currently circulated in Chiswick.What notice has been given seems to have been the result of investigative journalism by this site with the council not even bothering to respond to request for information about the closure. If this lack of response is down to sulk about the coverage of the borough's traffic measures, that is utterly scandalous.It isn't just a one off. Major roadworks often appear with little notice and it takes some detective work to find out what they are for and how long they will take. The Council could meaningfully reduce congestion and pollution if they made any sort of effort to make sure people were aware of forthcoming closures.

Paul Corcoran ● 2228d

If you are referring to the one day closure on the 27th there have been at least 2  dot matrix signs put-up to provide drivers fore-warning of the closures.,  One on the Chiswck lane corner and one further down on the road westbound towards Chiswick.

Matthew Swain ● 2228d

And there we have Matthew coming to the defense of LBH. BEvery other road sign will tell you the reason why. Just not these signs. The council could have easily responded why to allay any concern about traffic, duration, etc. They did not. They could have issued a press release to any manner of media including this forum as Guy Lambert well knows is used by locals. Then these locals could have spread the word as if it were their responsibility. But it would have helped ameliorate the situation. Instead we have no info from the council in any meaningful way. And no plan for vehicles coming down CHR being trapped. This is democracy to you, Matthew? This is fair representation? Our tax monies worth?

David Lesniak ● 2228d

David, it's going to 'interesting' to see what happens on Sunday morning.The sign in Chiswick Lane is just before the closure but there are no signs at the moment for traffic coming of Hogarth Roundabout into the lane so unless one is put in place people won't know about the closure until they are outside your establishment. The message on the dot matrix board is misleading. It says CHR is closed on Sunday. It isn't, only a section is.

Adrian Irving ● 2228d

Suddenly I'm envisioning a curbside lemonade stand...

David Lesniak ● 2228d

Matthew, I saw the dot matrix sign but I was on foot and we have learnt recently how drivers aren't likely to spot signs placed near the Turnham Green Terrace junction.The vast majority of people affected by the closure will not have seen the boards and, consequently will not make contingencies to deal with it, meaning the congestion and resultant pollution will be far worse than it needs to be. This could even still be mitigated by Hounslow Council publishing the planned diversion routes but for some reason they have not done so. A borough genuinely committed to safer streets and better air quality would be doing better than this.

Paul Corcoran ● 2228d

If the council have a statutory responsibility to make people aware of the closure and they are not fulfilling them then they are liable for resulting losses. Even on a Sunday morning there are going to be hundreds of people who lose income because of missed schedules, late arrival or not getting to an appointment. The only reason councils fix pavements promptly is because people sue them if they don't so unfortunately it is often the only way to get them to do what they are supposed to do.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2228d

Is it the Council or the cinema that would have a liability in this case?

Francis Rowe ● 2228d

The council employs a Head of Transport: Mark Frost.The cinema does not. The cinema had to apply for the permit and give the reason but they aren't responsible for communication and appropriate signage alerting the community.A sign on the A4 would have been brilliant. Instead we will have people exiting thinking they can access Chiswick Lane and then Goldhawk Road or King Street. They will then be forced west on CHR. Instinctively they will want to turn right on TGT to wend their way toward their destination. Will they get ticketed???

David Lesniak ● 2227d

Suing the council to get them to do this right may sound like a neat solution but it is probably impractical.The people who suffer loss of income are not going to be bankers, lawyers or civil servants because they wouldn't be out of bed at this time on a Sunday morning. The highest paid person losing out would probably be a emergency plumber and even their lost income wouldn't cover the cost of hiring a solicitor. Taking the council to the small claims court might be viable for some but then you face the problem of winning the case. The council have in-house representation and they will probably make an argument that putting an ad in a newspaper that nobody reads fulfils their legal duty.Theoretically the significant number of people who are likely to be affected by this could get together, hire a good lawyer and dismantle the council's arguments but that would require a lot of organisation and seems like an unlikely scenario.The hard truth is that the council know they don't need to worry about consequences and the way they handle these things is probably not down to ineptitude. They seem to have bought into the idea that driving a motor vehicle is inherently an evil thing to do and therefore a traffic jam on a Sunday morning is a useful way of making people see the error of their ways. Sure, it might cause financial loss for people on low incomes and a spike in pollution but this will demonstrate to people that they need to switch to more sustainable modes of transport.

Francis Rowe ● 2227d

I have just walked home along the Goldhawk Road from way beyond the junction of Askew Road. No warning signage so a driver will get all the way to just before the site only to find the road ahead closed.They will then have to do a U turn to go where ?Maybe diversion signs will be put in place at the last minute, who knows.

Adrian Irving ● 2227d

The closure is eastbound only so a driver approaching from Goldhawk Road will be able to proceed.I don't know if diversion signs are up yet or indeed if the council will bother but the logical diversion is up Acton Lane, however people are getting confused by the new signage which they think means they can't turn left. A PCN bonanza for the borough is in prospect with a huge number of drivers likely to think they have no option but to go up Turnham Green Terrace.

Paul Corcoran ● 2227d

What about the drivers approaching from the Hogarth flyover coming down Chiswick Lane?

David Lesniak ● 2227d

Paul are you sure that someone turning right will be able to get further than Homefield Road?The sign on the High Road says the road is closed from this point. The sign is on the south side of CHR shortly before you come to Chiswick Lane and the site.If you are correct the sign is wrong and traffic would be passing very close to the site whilst the cabins are being lifted off.

Adrian Irving ● 2227d

I'm going by the report on the front page which has been updated. I don't know what their source is for this information but, as the council don't seem to want to comment, it can't be them and therefore may not be totally authoritative.As for what happens at the junction with Chiswick Lane, that's anyone's guess. I'm out of town on Sunday so please do share updates of how things go.

Paul Corcoran ● 2227d

its more to do with the temp cycle lanes, as bus stops are moved into the  old bus lanes  edge, and middle safety areas are removed to make it safer also no bus lanes

William Leask ● 2226d

Confusion of signage this morning in connection with the eastbound CHR closure outside the new cinema site.  If you're driving east, you see this sign at Elliott Road, "use Chiswick Lane / Follow diversion". But a few yards further at the TGT junction you see this, offering a diversion contrary to the no-motor-vehicles sign behind it:Meanwhile work is proceeding on the cinema site (photo taken about 10:00):Eastbound traffic is able to turn right into Chiswick Lane.  Westbound traffic is held up occasionally by a stop/go board but is otherwise free flowing.

Richard Jennings ● 2225d

What a mess of signage!

Russell Pearson ● 2225d

I was along CHR while the portacabins were being moved expecting to see the CHAOS, GRIDLOCK, MADNESS and CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE predicted on this forum. It didn’t seem a big deal at all. The only madness on display was from a couple of eastbound drivers who seemed to think they should be allowed through while a portacabin was dangling in the air above the truck.

Michael Robinson ● 2225d

You mean that there won’t be a class action against the Council from  local businesses and tradesmen for the loss of income caused by a crane taking away a couple of portacabins?

Paul Campbell ● 2225d

Nope. The legal measures are aimed elsewhere.But, as ever, thanks Paul and Michael for not caring one whit about local businesses. I refer you to Paul's inane comment about Ealing businesses and how those in Chiswick have only good things to look forward to given the recent loss of trade down to the closure of TGT. In their rosy view, there exists no time line for the change. Sadly, businesses have experienced the change and its not for the better.Well done, gents.

David Lesniak ● 2225d

Pop quiz. Who wrote this on the 26th April 2020?“To me, TGT should just be shut for the time being except for deliveries to the shops servicing the community.”

Paul Campbell ● 2225d

PC: "I'm out of town on Sunday so please do share updates of how things go."My other half, who hasn't been following this debate, went out to CHR to get our Sunday paper at about 10 am. She walked from South Parade via Turnham Green Terrace to Tesco, then back to South Parade via Fishers Lane.I had been expecting her to have encountered chaos, gridlock and general mayhem, but when I asked, she said things were "quiet".No sign of any lemonade stalls either.

Richard Cathcart ● 2225d

Sadly, businesses have experienced the change and its not for the better.Who has collected all the data on this? It needs to be published. All evidence is useful. Ill happily put it in a presentable format if you send me the raw data directly related to restrictions. Cheers

Tony Smart ● 2224d

As it happens some clowns got the message on the dot matrix board wrong.Rather than westbound  CHR being closed from just before the site, as displayed on the board, there was a bloke with a stop go  board for a little while.To cap it off, at the bottom of my road and others there were  diversion signs sending drivers east when they could have just as easily gone west.

Adrian Irving ● 2224d

You make a fantastic point, Tony. No one at LBH nor TfL is taking into consideration the decrease in trade. Nor are you. Nor Paul. Nor Michael. Nor a host of others.Please let me know what box to tick when customers tell us they no longer come to Chiswick. Where is the survey? How about you collect the raw data? You know its out there. As do LBH and TfL. But when you turn a blind eye to it, it doesn't make it disappear. But what it does do is prove the "data" collected is biased and not fit for purpose.Thanks for making the point.

David Lesniak ● 2224d

Did the person who said this consider trade?“To me, TGT should just be shut for the time being except for deliveries to the shops servicing the community.”

Paul Campbell ● 2224d

As Adrian says the so-called closure wasn't really a closure. Also they appear to be throttling traffic along Chiswick High Road at the junction with Acton Lane. This has significantly reduced the tailbacks along Acton Lane and South Parade but on Sunday the queues that would normally have appeared in the centre of Chiswick were further west. They can only do this as long as the queue from the CHR junction doesn't stretch as far as Chiswick Roundabout, at which point the traffic jam will start to interfere with the A4 which TfL would not allow.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2224d

Paul, I'm going to 'bite'. Who wrote (back in April) what you've just repeated in the previous post? The search facility on the forum isn't quite as good as Google's (though it presumably harvests a hell of a lot less data!)

Andrew Jones ● 2224d

I'm glad that you asked Andrew! It was David Lesniak.

Paul Campbell ● 2224d

Thanks Richard. That chimes with what others have said and, according to Adrian, the road wasn't closed at all but a manually managed Stop/Go sign was being used. Apparently the work was completed well before 11.30am.The featuring of the possible closure in the weekly newsletter will probably have helped and, as someone else has pointed out, traffic is being held up eastbound on the High Road by Acton Lane which helped make the situation manageable.How much of this was down to planning and how much dumb luck is hard to say but I'd opt for the latter as the management of the whole thing seemed to be inept from start to finish.

Paul Corcoran ● 2224d

Oh so your quote on trade suffering was based on nothing then.Sorry I misunderstood and thought it was more substantial than "bob down the pub reckons"

Tony Smart ● 2224d

Ok thanks. I've read the thread where he wrote that. I expect that David has a different opinion now.Personally I'm don't think the potentially positive aspects of shutting TGT have been realised - it doesn't feel like there's been that much more room for social distancing, and TGT doesn't feel like a pedestrian paradise - instead it looks a mess. But some negative aspects do seem to have materialised e.g. traders on the road have suffered. Don't think we can just lay this at the door of COVID, I do feel that the loss of parking on TGT is putting the local shops at risk.It's just my experience from yesterday, but CHR seemed to be buzzing, while TGT felt very empty. I wish there was some third way of managing this that helped the traders, and reduced polluting traffic without going back to where we were before the road closures came in.

Andrew Jones ● 2224d

The road was closed eastbound.  Westbound traffic was let through by a manual board.There was no real queue in either direction.  Eastbound traffic on CHR simply turned into Chiswick Lane except for a couple of drivers who thought they could get special dispensation for driving through on the wrong side of the road with a portacabin dangling in the air above. They needed to do a U-turn.I'm not sure exactly when the roads opened up but the portacabins were in mid-air with traffic restrictions at 11am.

Michael Robinson ● 2224d

You don't think that the lack of trade has anything to do with the lack of footfall from people arriving by tube and bus?  You seem (or some people seem) to think the only shoppers are ones in cars. My experience of Turnham Green tube is of having to flatten myself against the wall at certain times because commuters run down the both sides of the steps.  So much of a problem that I'd sometimes walk to Hammersmith or Stamford Brook and also when arriving at Turnham Green tube and walking towards CHR of being pushed off the pavement by the people walking towards it with a bus shelter and bike stand to negotiate.  Something Paul Green insists couldn't possibly happen.Recently we've noticed more people on the buses and we've been told by friends that it is easy to socially distance on the tube.I've never walked along looking at the yellow lines and kerb markings to check where I could park because I'd normally be walking.  However with all tube stations there would be times when driving we would want to drop someone nearby to use them.I've also complained to the Council in the past about the refuse lorry driving over the pavement there. This of course is more likely to happen when there is a lot of traffic.

Philippa Bond ● 2224d

The problems with public transport are probably neutral overall for local businesses. On the one hand they will lose some customers but this would be offset by the number of people staying locally rather than going to the West End or Westfield.The unwillingness of some people to admit there is a existential threat to Turnham Green Terrace retailers here is perplexing. Although anybody who speaks to nearly all of the businesses operating on the road will hear that the parking and access restrictions has been disasterous for trade, this is dismissed as merely anecdotal evidence and therefore of no value.It looks like they won't be willing to concede there are problems unless a comprehensive survey is done of local businesses. This represents a Catch-22 because only the council has the resources to do this and they know exactly what the outcome would be because all the local businesses have already complained about the situation to them. Therefore there will never be any such survey and the die-hard advocates of the scheme can claim everything is just fine.

Anita Blake ● 2224d

Hi Philipa,There are more people commuting now then there were when lockdown started getting eased, I presume as people feel more confident about using the tube and buses. The impression I get is that the footfall on TGT has fallen since these measures have been introduced and enforced, which is ironic since in part the measures were meant to aid increased space for pedestrians to accomodate the footfall 'safely'. A cynic may say the measures have improved the ability to 'social distance'on TGT.Maybe footfall is starting to slowly increasing again, but in the meantime some of the traders say they are suffering. Some of the comments I've read from car drivers on this forum frustrate me, those that say they couldn't possibly go shopping in chiswick now because a limited number of parking places are now inaccesible to them - there are plenty of parking spaces within a relatively short walk e.g. on South Parade, in the Glebe Street CPZ etc. but there are quite probably people who would stop in TGT to shop there, maybe on their way back from or to somewhere else (possibly another shop, friends, trip out etc.) and that has now gone.I agree there is plenty of shopping that doesn't need a car, some people are 'married' to their cars, but there is a significant proportion of previous shoppers in TGT who now probably won't frequent it as often if at all, because the ease of making an impulse stop has stopped, and there doesn't as it stands appear to be any significant benefit.I make these comments having looked at TGT in recent weeks, being fairly pro-cycling myself (in spite of not having a cycle at the moment mainly due to space and security concerns) and feeling pretty exasperated by the attitude of some car drivers on this forum that they should pretty much be allowed to go wherever they want, whenever they want, and have every single bit of road tarmac available to use, regardless of the impact on local residents living nearby.And I do more often than not walk to the shops in TGT and Chiswick from where I live (near Wendell Park).

Andrew Jones ● 2224d

Unfortunately many people will have changed their shopping habits because of lockdown.  I've been shopping twice and actually in a shop once.  I can't believe that I'm the only one like this.  There was already a move to more online shopping and deliveries before Covid meant that we had to change habits.Is it really not easier to walk along TGT now?  You don't seem to think so. I know Elizabeth said she found it difficult with a trolley because of 'A' boards and the lack of ramps to allow access onto the lower level.  Has that been fixed now?

Philippa Bond ● 2224d

TGT was as busy as usual today. We should really ignore the comments of the half dozen anti safer roads activists.

Carl Wynne ● 2224d

On the east side of TGT there is no difference in how easy it is to walk solely on the pavement and while there is less traffic and hence you might be more likely to walk on the road, it still carries traffic - buses, cycles, taxis, vehicles using the road for access, and of course those drivers who haven't spotted the restrictions/are guided like sheep by their satnav/decide they will flout the restrictions. On the west side in some places there is more space available solely for pedestrians, but because some of the existing bays are still (rightly IMO) available for disabled parking and/or loading you don't have the benefit that a wider pavement would have achieved.Can't comment about how easy it is with a trolley, but I'm walking down to M&S later so I'll have a look. I don't think that a lot of the shops in TGT are sort of ones that are being replaced by online shopping - if you go to a butchers or fishmongers you probably wouldn't consider online shopping a replacement, similarly the various food places, cafes, card shop, jewelry shop, toy shop, dry cleaner etc. etc. etc.

Andrew Jones ● 2224d

H Carl, who exactly is anti safer roads? I know I am not, but shutting certain roads just increases congestion elsewhere. Several cyclists have posted to this effect. There is still lots of traffic on TGT, I fail to see any great difference for either pedestrians or cyclists. The blocked bays on the west side did not necessitate closing the road, and are rarely used by pedestrians in any case.I would welcome seeing Fishers Lane become part of a safer cycling route, but TGT closure makes no sense and makes stretches of Acton Lane & South Parade more hazardous

Paul Green ● 2224d

There are at least half a dozen businesses on TGT who think they may need to close because of these changes - perhaps it is they who Carl is referring to.

Jeremy Parkinson ● 2223d

Who and how was trade for them the last 6 months?

Tony Smart ● 2223d

"Who and how was trade for them the last 6 months?" I rather think that is their business and not information that should be shared on a public forum.Speculation about which traders will go under and which won't is quite unfair and very likely damaging to the businesses affected.As someone who has been through the good trading times and bad please remember you are talking about people, people that have enough to deal with without their business being 'analysed' on a local forum.Thank you.

Adrian Irving ● 2223d

I fully agree with Adrian.Although I was going to go another way on this and ask Tony why he can't be bothered to simply engage with the TGT traders himself? I suspect it's down to what Anita suggests with the council not doing the same: they won't like the results and it won't fit the purpose so why bother finding a better solution when you can simply have the lazy one.

David Lesniak ● 2223d

Good morning, Paul.I hope you slept well apparently dreaming of me. Your fixation is both amusing and concerning.That said, I appreciate you're quoting me void of any context. I also appreciate, as ever, you're thinking so little of me that I'm incapable of evolving thoughts and positions. Perhaps it's your own intractability foisted upon me. Dunno.But as Andrew says, the potential for closing TGT has never materialized. Sadly. When I said that it had to do with a very different set of circumstances in terms of social distancing and it was in support of traders who should have been given access to the footpath and roadway in such a way to increase their footprint. A policy clearly in place and supported by other councils, just not this one.But the point of this thread, the one we're on now, was to ask the question what would happen when CHR closed this past Sunday. Would cars be ticketed when they were diverted toward TGT. I saw may cars doing just that at about 9:30am Sunday morning. This with a big yellow diversion sign pointing right up TGT. But was the camera off? The council could have easily issued a statement. It did not.I did note, though, we have Mark Frost engaging with applicants from St Albans for an  antiques and vintage market all along CHR. Yet he can't be bothered to engage properly with the tax payers whose hard work he enjoys in the form of his salary.

David Lesniak ● 2223d

It wasn’t hard because I quoted you in the letter that I sent to the Council copying in the local Councillors in early May to demonstrate that there was demand for change on TGT to better manage the conditions. I didn’t go as far as you with my suggestions but I thought it would be useful for the Council to see that even people notorious for opposing anything that adversely affected cars and parking were open to radical change. Maybe you helped them to make up their mind. In the letter I did leave out your next sentence: “Maybe ditto Devonshire Road”.

Paul Campbell ● 2223d

Tony and others do not actually seem to care for local traders, and dismiss all reports of issues. They seem to prefer online consultations that do not verify where people live and allow them to be captured by lobby groups. CS9 is now being built, which will cause disruption but should be allowed to settle in. Compounding this with irrational road closures when retail is already under pressure creates a perfect storm.Regardless of the original intention, what is happening in Chiswick is currently crazy. No clear rational, no criteria for assessment, no robust mechanism for feedback from those actually impacted. I would argue that the traders on DR should be the ones to decide if the scheme there continues, we cannot afford to lose any more. TGT remains the most pointless closure.

Paul Green ● 2223d

That's not true at all. I've said on multiple occasions that all data is valuable, both the good and the bad. I wouldn't want to see traders struggling. I probably think more collectively than some but I think you are to when trying to make holistic improvements.All I see on here though are unverified statements from people with a history for this sort of thing.If everyone was thriving with hardly anyone visiting on the trains or coming out because of covid but now are struggling because they can't park a car for 10 mins to visit a single shop then that's pretty important information to evaluate things with.I haven't even said I support what's happening at TGT or many of the other things people are whinging about. Personally I'd have probably sided more with David's plan to kick all traffic out.I know better than to just accept stuff without anything to back it up though.

Tony Smart ● 2223d

Tony said 'I know better than to just accept stuff without anything to back it up though'I could not agree more. So where is there anything to back up the closure of TGT? Was it for COVID or CS9, or something else? What criteria will be used to evaluate it, does anyone know? What separate survey has been undertaken for retailers and when will this be published, what weight does this carry? As others note, if you choose not to survey retailers there is no data.... then it becomes easy to also dismiss 'hearsay'. So it becomes very easy to pretend there is no problem.Lets also stop the straw man and belittling of others. It is more than not being to park for 10 minutes. At times its been massive congestion and much longer increase in journey times, plus noise and air pollution for residents and more dangerous roads for cyclists.Noone said retailers are thriving, but if you make it much harder for people to visit that will make things worse.

Paul Green ● 2223d

TGT is NOT closed for access so why not advertise where you can park?  I don't see that happening - I just see a host of negative statements about how you can't drive through TGT using the situation of the traders that you may or may not be using as an excuse.Many shops nowadays are online or will take orders online or by telephone either for collection or delivery or both.  Where is that discussion?Or perhaps you are only interested in being through-traffic? 

Philippa Bond ● 2223d

What criteria will be used to evaluate it, does anyone know? What separate survey has been undertaken for retailers and when will this be published, what weight does this carry? I don't know if any data is or was being collected before but if it was one of my schemes I would be stressing the importance of it for others to learn from.

Tony Smart ● 2222d

Many shops nowadays are online or will take orders online or by telephone either for collection or delivery or both.  Where is that discussion?Philippa, how do you think collections and deliveries are made? Have a think. With a multitude of shops and offerings comes a multitude of delivery infrastructure. When last we checked, Ocado et al use vans. Uber uses cars. Black cabs use cars. Even people who want to collect use cars. Unless you expect them to cycle home a an easy chair. When you eliminate part of the infrastructure you eliminate that access.Think of it this way, TfL is responsible for getting millions in and around London. Remove the tube from the equation. Then what?

David Lesniak ● 2222d

"I would be stressing the importance of it for others to learn from"I'd like to thank Tony for this comment.We don't agree on much, but for this I'm appreciative. If only Michael, Paul, Karen, and all those fancy doctors held the same view. If only there was a completely neutral third-party evaluating the circumstances.

David Lesniak ● 2222d