Forum Topic

The Park Road protest is the definition of entitlement

The Park Road protest has nothing to do with the traffic island whatsoeverIt has everything to do with Park Road residents quivering with entitled rage at the thought of some traffic on the road.

Ian Philips ● 2230d102 Comments

Ian, do you live locally?

Russell Pearson ● 2230d

I support protest as removal of island is ludicrous. Scheme is ill conceived. Not a Park Rd resident.

Sean Wales ● 2230d

Just wondering if Ian is related to an academic of same name, who writes a lot about roads and stuff?

Russell Pearson ● 2230d

Russell Sounds like the same 'academic' person ! But I maybe wrong ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2230d

Why are Staveley Road residents' complaints about traffic on their road something that the council is making a priority to deal with and Park Road residents' complaints about the traffic that will appear on their road 'entitled rage?'.Looking at the two roads, the obvious conclusion is that, although traffic might not get up to the speeds it currently does on Staveley Road, restricted sight lines mean there is a greater danger of accidents on Park Road.

Francis Rowe ● 2230d

The local ward cllrs have been quietly engaging with council officers about these schemes for months. As a result, minor modifications have been made to the Staveley Rd / Park Rd scheme but unfortunately we have been unable to persuade them to consider simpler, more flexible and less intrusive alternatives e.g  ANPR cameras.We understand the frustration of Staveley Rd roads whose pleas for road calming measures have been largely ignored by LBH. We have lobbied LBH on their behalf as Cllrs and been told that there are simply not enough deaths and injuries on the road to justify an "intervention". Yet now when TfL is paying for it we get this brutal 24/7 scheme combined with the removal of vital pedestrian crossings with traffic islands.

Cllr Sam Hearn ● 2230d

Having successfully campaigned for the closure of Stile Hall Gardens, which Cllr Hearn opposed, I know the level of duplicitous nonsense he will spout.I note a photo with him wearing a 'v for vendetta' mask on the back of his head this morning, so quite literally, two faced.Since when was high tech cameras requiring communications, associated software and definition of processes to operate, maintain information together with appeal and update processes that have never been implemented in the council before 'simpler' than a plastic barrier?Of course, Cllr Hearn has never bothered to actually document his alternative.  Probably because any time he has actually proposed something it has been ludicrous.He knows full well that the funding provided by the government only covers temporary measures and not measures requiring construction such as speed humps but persists in claiming this is something the council can address.It is just like his persistent claims that cycleway 9 traffic modelling showed an increase in pollution.  They didn't, but of course Cllr Hearn ignored that.For Staveley Rd residents who want to see the trial go ahead, to be honest, I'd ignore Cllr Hearn and appeal directly to council leadership, Steve Curran and cabinet lead Hanif Khan.From Cllr Hearn you'll only get some vague hand waving about some non-specified have cake and eat it solution but ultimately he doesn't have the desire or backbone to do anything that restricts motor traffic.

Michael Robinson ● 2230d

A tory politician leading a civil disobedience campaign against government policy is a precedent that could well prove useful in other circumstances.

Ken Munn ● 2230d

"It is just like his persistent claims that cycleway 9 traffic modelling showed an increase in pollution.  They didn't, but of course Cllr Hearn ignored that"So Michael, is now a good time to mention how you persistently claimed CS9 showed a decrease in pollution when in fact the TfL data you cling to indicated no change? Which begs the question why spend all the money? Oh wait, TfL didn't spend it because it didn't have it because it can't manage to find it's navel much like Sadiq Khan. So enough lobbying. Enough of the blather and smearing and division. You are advocating the privatization of Chiswick streets and support what is ostensibly discrimination. Only some residents of the borough can use the streets while others cannot. WHITE LIST? Really? In 2020? Who thought that one up? Could it get any more entitled than stomping your feet to have all this money spent for something that you yourself state is trial and error? Disingenuous comes to mind.

David Lesniak ● 2230d

"Only some residents of the borough can use the streets while others cannot."Eh? All residents can use all streets.

Ken Munn ● 2230d

> "Only some residents of the borough can use the streets while others cannot.">Eh? All residents can use all streets.Hartington Road, going in only some will be able to use it.And even Tory politicians have a right to protest. For now, anyway...

Russell Pearson ● 2230d

Russell - were you born on wheels?

Philippa Bond ● 2230d

KenErm, all Chiswick residents cannot use all the streets/ roads in Chiswick without penalty ! For example shortly we will no longer be able to use Hartington Road or Staveley Road without being accused and penalised for "alleged rat running"... or have I got that wrong ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2230d

That's a good route for rat running commuters travelling over Chiswick Bridge -  avoid Hartington Rd go up to Staverley Rd, or further up, hang a left back down Burlington Lane, right along Staveley, charging along at up 90 mph,  sharp right at the blockage up Park Rd still at great speed and left onto A4 avoiding big hold ups in Sutton Crt Rd and cutting out the misery of Hogarth roundabout!  Super duper chaps - that's really traffic friendly for all the locals, also cyclists from wobblers to lycra louts, and the enormous flood of pedestrians.  Its a safer neighbourhood!  What's not to like?

Jennifer Selig ● 2230d

"have I got that wrong ?"Yes you are wrong..  Anyone can access any location on Staveley Rd.Anyone can access any location on Hartington Rd.There are access restrictions for some cars westbound on Hartington Rd but as mentioned, that doesn't stop you accessing any location by another route.On the other hand, you won't able to park in lots of areas without penalty if your car isn't registered in the controlled parking zone.  Same applies to cars registered in Grove Park CPZs for CPZs elsewhere in Chiswick.So people have the same rights.  There are restrictions on some cars, as there has always been for CPZ, but cars aren't people.  If they were, then Priti Patel would be deporting the foreign ones.

Michael Robinson ● 2230d

Wheels? 🤔 a wandering star maybe...

Russell Pearson ● 2230d

That's not the point, as you well know !However, we were born in a democracy which means a freedom of choice as to how we travel, amonst other things, from A to B. Or don't you support the democratic process ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2230d

Michael Robinson - you are a real pain in the bum with your great biased and blinkered pro cycling, bike everywhere hat on.  I have every confidence in our local Councillors and particularly Cllr Sam Hearn.  We actually live here in Grove Park, the Riverside Ward, me since 1975 and Cllr H for a very long time too - we and many many other residents of the RIVERSIDE Ward know more about living and getting around here than do far off Hounslow Council.

Jennifer Selig ● 2230d

The problem is that, convoluted as that route may seem, sat navs will start recommending it as soon as there is congestion on the A316. The only answer would be to close Park Road at the junction with the A4.

Diane Brown ● 2230d

Jennifer's suggested route is not viable when the filter is in place. There will be no right turn onto Park Road from Staveley for westbound vehicles. Only a left turn taking you in the opposite direction from the A4. This misunderstanding is another good reason for getting on with the trial.

Paul Campbell ● 2230d

She got her lefts and rights mixed up at the final turn but it is clear what she meant. The route hadn't occurred to me before she highlighted it but as Diane points out, it won't be a problem for Sat Navs to identify. As soon as the A316 becomes congested going up to Hogarth Roundabout, traffic will be directed this way. Don't think this scheme will turn out to be a win for the section of Staveley Road west of Park Road. The wider problem is that nobody is buying the idea that this really is a trial anymore.

Paul Corcoran ● 2229d

I agree there is a question mark if the increased length of the detour will be enough to dissuade all traffic.  GPS routing algorithms are a mysterious thing...they don't necessarily look at all possible routes and figure out the fastest time as that can take a very long time to calculate (p vs np for maths nerds) but are heavily based upon existing routes.  The only way to have certainty is completely block a road as has been done at Wellesley or Dan Mason Drive and even then cars may drive on the pavement if they think the gap is big enoughOnly one way to find out and that is to trial it.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

> Only one way to find out and that is to trial it.That doesn’t really work out when the trial is a couple of roads where there’s no way in or out, such as Hartington, no way in, or Harvard Hill, no way out. The data will be certain, but totally meaningless.

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

The right or left mix up is fundamental to the viability of the route as a shortcut in this case. If you can’t turn right at the barrier for a fast route up to the A4 then it means you have to turn left onto Park Rd, right onto Lawton and right onto SCR. Rather more convoluted and slow.  I think the traffic will be directed by Sat Navs to stay on Burlington Lane and then onto Sutton Court Road and that is also what the designers think. I don’t understand your comment about it not being a win for the section west of Park Road unless you believe that cars will turn back onto Staveley off SCR in order to turn left onto Park up to the A4? That seems unlikely. Sat Navs are not directing cars that way now when the queue on SCR to the A4 extends beyond Fauconberg. I predict that section will see a reduction from nearly 5000 cars a day to around 100. Bliss for all the residents there. But no point going round and round in circles arguing about what Waze’s algorithms will calculate. Just get on with the trial so we can see and adjust accordingly.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

All residents can use all streets.Except they can't. Simply read, Ken. Many people have asked questions and gone through the LTN travel audit to learn, on a forum that doesn't reach many, how to get from A to B.

David Lesniak ● 2229d

Anyone can access any location on Hartington Rd.So how do I do a catering delivery on Hartington near the boat club? What are the hours of access?How do local businesses find this out?Do they get ticketed? If yes, then clearly these measures are anti-business. All for the privatization of public streets using public money for the privilege of the few. And there I thought Labour was all about the many.

David Lesniak ● 2229d

Lawton is being closed off so the route will be even more convoluted.Cllr Hearn requested that Lawton should be closed so I wonder if he will be organising another protest for a measure he asked for.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

'I don’t understand your comment about it not being a win for the section west of Park Road unless you believe that cars will turn back onto Staveley off SCR in order to turn left onto Park up to the A4? 'That is exactly what will happen. One of the reasons that Staveley Road currently sees so much traffic is that traffic is already been redirected up that road when there are queues towards the Hogarth Roundabout. When the barrier is installed there would need also to be queues at the junction of Sutton Court Road and the A4 but given recent experience I think we can assume there will be. This route will quickly be identified by the technology. The volume of traffic potentially that could be directed towards this way will increase because of the restriction on Hartington Road.It isn't just Sat Navs that will cause this Uber drivers, delivery drivers and local residents quickly work out viable alternative routes. You have told us how fond you are of using rat runs and therefore we have to assume you will be among those taking advantage of this one.You may argue that overall traffic count will be down and speeds will be down which they will be because this diversion is only likely to occur at times of high congestion and the length of road used is shorter, but this doesn't mean the quality of life of residents will be improved. They will have swapped a steady stream of low level traffic for regular bursts of high intensity."I predict that section will see a reduction from nearly 5000 cars a day to around 100. "Is it any wonder people are sceptical about the scheme when you make such obviously ill-informed claims? Delivery vans, local residents' journeys and people visiting Chiswick House will each be a multiple of a hundred.The new layout will improve the lot of people on the section of Staveley Road east of Park Road and west of Burlington Lane but every other road in the area apart from Hartington Road may at times experience more traffic.People have lost trust in the Council and no longer believe this is a trial. The very restrictive access at Hartington Road is a pretty unambiguous sign that this is about revenue raising for Hounslow and not the benefit of residents.When the 'trial' is over you will triumphantly hail it as a success because average speeds and traffic numbers are down on Staveley Road echoing the council press release announcing that it is to be made permanent. The issues that have arisen on other roads in the area will be quietly ignored.

Paul Corcoran ● 2229d

The length won't be the issue - it will be relative journey times and therefore how long the queues will on the A316 and SCR. As it stands they are considerable and remember this is an issue in the first place because Sat Navs are already directing traffic up Staveley Road.In this case the only way to stop the route would be to close Park Road at the junction with the A4.The problem with suggesting a trial is that nobody believes it is a trial anymore.

Paul Corcoran ● 2229d

I assume you mean Lawford not Lawton.I am sure Cllr. Hearne will be organising and motivating the NIMBY protestors (and giving warning of contractors arrivals?...surely not) for as long as it takes, to ensure that not one additional car drives past his house.

Jonathan Simpson ● 2229d

Let’s get the trial going and we will see whose predictions are closer to the truth. I guess the residents would say several hundred is also a lot better than nearly 5000 so I’m happy to be proven wrong on that prediction. It turned out that I was right about Fishers being a popular rat run didn’t it? People were arguing it was a safe route for cycling as a quiet road and now they are arguing that it is a vital capacity route. You have said before several times that your were supportive of the South Chiswick Liveable Neighbourhood scheme. Although you predicted more traffic on Fauconberg while I said there would be less and I don’t think anybody needs to wait for the data to see who got that one right. Why have you changed your mind?

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

Yes Lawford, my mistake.It was good to see Cllr Hearn following government advice and wearing a mask on both of his faces.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

I ran past at 8am this morning and the Councillor was there on vigil with one of the other protestors. He is certainly a committed member of the Park Rd movement if not something more.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

Surely we are all entitled to protest against about whatever we wish ? That's partly what the struggles of previous generations were all about, and we should be thankful for that, not be critical of it when we don't agree with the cause.

Keith Iddon ● 2229d

I don't really understand what you are saying about Fisher's Lane but, to be clear, I was saying beforehand that closing Fisher's Lane would make it impossible to cycle down South Parade and Acton Lane and that is exactly what has happened.

Mark Evans ● 2229d

I think you have that wrong.As far as I understand it, you won't be able to turn right off of Staveley Road onto Park Road.  It will be left turn only at the barrier.

Al Webber ● 2229d

I cycled the length of Staveley Road this morning just after 9am on my way to my office and I was the only moving vehicle on the entire length of the road. Repeat, I was the only road user on Staveley Road shortly after 9am on a weekday...To suggest that the next six months will provide useful data to review the efficacy of these traffic measures is laughable. I do not live on Park Road but I fully support these local residents standing up to these traffic measures. They are divisive and proving very unpopular. The council needs to step up and engage the residents that it serves.

Henry Man ● 2229d

The same is happening elsewhere in Chiswick. My wife chose to cycle on the pavements returning to Grove Park from the CHR last week because the roads were gridlocked. She could not make progress on a bicycle on the road! That was on a normal bicycle, good luck to anyone on a cargo bike.

Henry Man ● 2229d

The overall concept remains a good one and if done right would hugely improve quality of life in the area.My view has evolved as I've heard more from people who live in the area and, while I still believe something needs to be done because of the way traffic apps are increasingly directing traffic through residential areas, I now appreciate this issue is more complex than I did originally. Right now the problem seems to be that for many solving the Staveley Road traffic issue seems to be the only benchmark for success with no thought for the consequences elsewhere. One road will see an improvement, most won't. The only equitable solution that I can see is more widespread but time-limited ANPR controls with access at any point to all Grove Park residents.Trialing this system as it stands will result in Hounslow getting a significant revenue stream from the Hartington Road camera and you would have to prise that from their cold dead hand if you wanted to take it away from them so no matter how things turn out in the rest of the area they will be telling us it has been successful. I strongly suspect you will too.

Paul Corcoran ● 2229d

Yes, no right turn from Staveley onto Park.That blocks a minor rat run which is people coming off the A316 at Staveley then getting to the A4 via Milnthorpe, Eastbourne or Park.  From the traffic measurements, about 500 a day did that.So that would produce a reduction in traffic along those streets.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

I don't think that solving the Staveley Road Traffic issue is the only benchmark for success. It is just the topic of conversation because of the protests taking place. I think that we will need to see how all of the various measures combine to reduce traffic in the area. We only have one measure in place at the moment and due to the proximity of my house to it and more days working from home it is obvious to me that it has been very successful with traffic significantly reduced on all of the roads between the railways, A4 and SCR apart from maybe Edensor which sems to have a small increase from a very low base. The sensors will tell us more. However on its own it is not a solution for the area.I don't buy the argument from others that traffic volumes are too low to gather data. All of the available data at the moment from DfT, TfL and SatNav companies is showing that traffic volumes and miles travelled by car are now higher than pre-Covid and I have not seen a queue to the A4 as long as the one at 8am this morning. Traffic is pouring in off the A316 and through Hartington and Staveley. This is why Shapps released the new statutory guidance in May. The prediction then was that Covid would increase car usage and so measures needed to be taken to alleviate the negative impacts of that on people and enable alternative means. Whatever anybody thinks of the rightness or wrongness of that approach it is one thing the government has accurately predicted and acted decisively upon.We will have objective empirical evidence when the Hartington camera is operational, the diagonal filter on Staveley installed, the school street scheme running at Chiswick School and the timed access restriction in place on Thames Road.Until then hearing from people is hearing their fears and prejudices which I listened to them voicing to the police yesterday.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

"When the camera is operational... the diagonal filter... the school street scheme... and the timed access restriction is in place..' all in such a small area, must be a recipe for confusion and poor compliance. As others have suggested, physical barriers are probably the only reliable way of stopping through traffic passing through a designated area, with residents accepting the inconvenience in return for the perceived benefits. In this case, blocking the eastern ends of Hartington, Staveley and Burlington would be a simple experiment worth trying.

Peter Evans ● 2229d

That would indeed be a great deal more straightforward. Whether it would be any more palatable to people who place a high value on their freedom to drive unhindered is another question.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

"blocking the eastern ends of Hartington, Staveley and Burlington would be a simple experiment worth trying."That's what they would do in other countries like the Netherlands.  None of this faffing around with ANPR.This is what was done for Paxton Rd to close off that particular rat run - I don't know when.  Access is from the A4.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

"Whether it would be any more palatable to people who place a high value on their freedom to drive unhindered is another question."Oh the complete and utter irony of that statement, isn't that exactly what cyclists want, freedom to cycle unhindered  ? Never mind the restrictions and negative impact on businesses, pedestrians and residents !

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

Although I regularly use Staveley Road to get from SCR to A316 I can see the point in restricting access from Park Road to Staveley that would eliminate the rat run from A316 to avoid Hogarth Roundabout.The problem is the way the debate is conducted.  The protestors are perfectly entitled to protest legally, so LBH calling them "illegal" is both wrong and stupid.Then we have the delights of Michael Robinson on this forum who has called the protestors "dumb", who regularly complains that 75% of traffic on Staveley Road is speeding (the same is true on just about every road) completely missing the point that the traffic is mostly 25 mph or less (that is the point of the 20 mph zone) and has yet to come up with any evidence as to what type of vehicle is speeding the most - my guess from being on Staveley Road a lot is that it is mopeds because the road is a slalom course for anything bigger

Justin Stephenson ● 2229d

Correction: not "Edensor". "Elmwood" seeing a slight increase from some of the people west of Fauconberg who would have used HH to exit the area on the A4 using it instead of Fauconberg to get to the A4.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

Please stop making things up Justin.You clearly didn't read my post where I gave the speeding figures and types of vehicles.Only 3.9% of vehicles were two wheelers (bikes or powered two wheelers, the sensors can't differentiate them).  93% were cars/vans and the remainder heavier vehicles.Given that 75% of vehicles are speeding, can you explain how only 3.9% of the vehicles make up most of the vehicles speeding? This is what you believe.It clearly can't so it just demonstrates that your opinion is wrong.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

Don't be so silly. They would only do that as part of a comprehensive list of measures, which would include addressing the motorway dumping masses of vehicles into Chiswick each day and that also acts as a magnet pulling them out. It does not matter how much you ignore this but there are very unique challenges around Chiswick.

Paul Green ● 2229d

Ooops on that Paul 😉I've friends who live on Elmwood and Hazeldene who've noticed a substantial increase in through traffic and guess what they really, really love the likes of you, Robinson et al and your chums at LB Hounslow 🤬

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

"Oh the complete and utter irony of that statement, isn't that exactly what cyclists want, freedom to cycle unhindered "And cyclists already have it. They can cycle unhindered sharing the road with other road users and being considerate.If what cyclists want in reality is to be not considerate and to keep momentum - that's a different story. Unfortunately that's exactly what some cyclists want. The most vocal ones. Fortunately they are in minority... but very vocal minority with lots of lobbying power.

Alex Shpinkov ● 2229d

Hazeldene Road is a crescent road that runs behind the now much emptier and traffic-free Fauconberg road with entry and exit at either end of the parade of shops. It doesn't go anywhere so I am curious as to why they are experiencing more traffic. LTN tourists maybe?

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

"Given that 75% of vehicles are speeding, can you explain how only 3.9% of the vehicles make up most of the vehicles speeding? This is what you believe."By how many mph are these vehicles speeding ? 2 mph, 3 mph, 20 mph ? I regularly drive to Staveley and Park Road, 5 times a week but there and back, so 10 times, and I've rarely seen any excessive speeding - what's your evidence ? Other that that of questionable hearsay or TfL and LB Hounslow stats, neither of whom have a credible track record of anything to do with figures !Your the one that makes things up especially when it comes to statistics  - now what's that famous quote about lies, damn lies and statistics  ?I'll leave that one with you 😉

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

Just realised that the OP is absolutely right. Contrary to Hanif Khan’s press release saying it was illegal, they are actually completely entitled to protest!

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

I have just read the front page.  Hanif Khan obviosuly has no clue and i guess its a case of scrap the idea or go to court to get an injunction. Until you do,your stuffed if the law says your ok

Julian Pavey ● 2229d

I didn't realise that your were a human speed detector Loraine.  I see that Hounslow have installed speed detectors all over Chiswick within the last week or so.  Can you give us your figures for the speeds on all the roads you have seen so we don't need to wait until the sensor measurements are available?I'm afraid your anecdotes from being there for a few minutes, even 10 times a week don't really compare to an automated sensor measuring vehicles 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for a couple of weeks, gathering over 100,000 readings from two sensors on Staveley Rd.I gave the more information about the traffic data in a previous post last week that you don't seem to have read so I won't be repeating it.  It was done by a company called Tracsis (tracsistraffic.com) and you can get all of their source reports if you email the traffic department at Hounslow.  My figures are from their data, not LBH and TfL.It may take you a bit of time going through the data given there were over 1.2M readings from almost 50 sensors.  Do you have any particular expertise in data science applications to analyse this volume of data easily?  If not, it may take you some time.Please point out any mistakes I have made.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

"I've friends who live on Elmwood and Hazeldene who've noticed a substantial increase in through traffic"Can you quantify this?  I've got the figures for Elmwood Rd measured by the traffic camera installed there last year.Please ask them for the vehicles per hour eastbound and westbound.  No need to do this all day, just for, say, 8am to 9am and 3pm to 4pm.Always best to use data rather than anecdotes and opinions don't you think?

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

We live in Elmwood Road. We are definitely seeing more traffic Eastbound going out to the A4 in the mornings.  There are a pair of wires down just before the junction with SCR, so there should be actual figures available at some point soon.I don't think the current plans are the best approach.If someone is going to Roko's gym from the 316 for instance, the Hartington Road thing is going to mean they have to drive up the A316, onto SCR on one sire or other of CHiswick School, and then come over the railway bridge from SCR.  That's probably making a journey of a couple of hundred metres into a well over a mile, with a large increase in pollution.  It will also put more traffic on the 316 and SCR, plus traffic through residential streets like Spenser Road from the bridge to Hartingdon Road.  The same will happen with delivery drivers getting to properties in Hartington Road.Likewise for us, if we want to get to Elmwood Road from Kew or Brentford, we will now have to go up to Chiswick Roundabout and along the A4 or High Road to get home rather than along Strand on the Green.  Again that adds significant distance to our journey, with all the associated pollution. At busy times it will probably add half an hour to the journey as well.I get the idea behind the restrictions, but this approach is wrong.  They are planning to use ANPR cameras anyway, so just put them at every entry/exit point to Grove Park, and penalise the rat runners who drive through.  Residents getting in and out of their homes should only go past one of them, so it shouldn't be a problem for them.

Al Webber ● 2229d

I'm not aware of timed ANPR being done anywhere before.  Green Dragon Lane is the first and then SOTG/Thames Rd.Both of these are roads of greater than 500m with no other entrances or exits.  I can understand trying things out there first before anything larger in scale.If it is deployed around an area, I can't see them doing it on smaller roads, just so a small number of residents can save a few minutes.  Easiest thing is to shut those roads in both directions and cameras on the major routes.In the context of Grove Park, that would mean shutting Harvard Hill, Eastbourne, Milnthorpe, Park and maybe Burlington.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

No I don't especially as you dont know Sutton Court Road  from Staveley Road!

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

Thanks for pointing out something I fully aware of, but I'll make allowances for your lack of self control when your keyboard warrior instinct kicks in.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

Not everybody reading your post will be as familiar with the roads in the area and I think it is a fair question to ask of a resident of Hazeldene Road who is complaining of increased through traffic when we are trying to understand the outcomes of the new measures during the trial period. If there is no answer forthcoming then it is another scaremongering anecdote that we have rightly rapidly dismissed as irrelevant.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

Can you point out where I actually made the mistake Loraine?I couldn't be arsed checking back through all my posts so it was easier to say sorry if I did use the wrong figure for Staveley but I didn't know if I actually did.Now that you mention it, please point out where I may have made this mistake.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

> It may take you a bit of time going through the data given there were over 1.2M readings from almost 50 sensors.  Do you have any particular expertise in data science applications to analyse this volume of data easily?  If not, it may take you some time.Bit of a waste - they could have had someone count a few cars and then say, ‘right, let’s close some roads off! All sorted!’ But of course they need the sophisticated data to back up their crude sledgehammer approach...I can see the press release now.>Please point out any mistakes I have made.Not putting it all into Power BI. Treating others as if they were numpties.

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

ANPR is used all over the place.  The congestion charge zone readily springs to mind.Any ANPR (like the one the are planning for SOTG) will require being hooked up to some kind of central database that records when vehicles are seen.  If you are doing that anyway, it's just a question of scale.Writing a query to run at the end of the day to find two entries from different cameras with timestamps that are too close together isn't difficult.  In my job I work with a system that can record around 200GB of video per day, and manages to timestamp it and synchronise it to location on a railway, and also to track geometry data.  In comparison, the ANPR would be relatively simple.

Al Webber ● 2229d

Typical sarcastic, pompous and obnoxious post from you Michael, no wonder so many posters on here have nothing good to say about you, As far as my ability to judge speed, Michael you know very ittle or nothing about my qualifications or vocational history and therefore are in no position to make sneering comments. However, as you've brought this up are you actually employed by a company or are you self employed ?Mistakes you've you've made ? Hmmmm I won't mention your latest bloomer - Staveley and SCR... not to mention others on here who've taken you to task about your "data".

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

The congestion charge system cost almost £200M to implement and has maintainance costs in the £10Ms per year.Its amazing that so many people say it would be 'simple' yet can't actually provide an example of a council doing it over an area of similar size to Grove Park.(as an engineer, I'm used to people, usually sales, saying 'why can't we develop this, it's simple' It usually does appear simple to people looking from the outside but invariably never is...)

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

Oh dear there you go again for the enth time this week - is that the Royal "we" or the distinctly less than regal but commonplace Robinson, Campbell, Smart, Pike cabal ?You know you really should hold back on your sneering, sarcastic and self serving comments and maybe youd get more residents of Grove Park on your side. As it stands many new posters on this Forum are voicing their objections to this 'trial'. I know this is hard for you to comprehend but more carrot and less stick is the way forward.FYI no one is scaremongering, but they are articulating their concerns, the ability to listen is a key communication skill - why not give it a try ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

No need to be vulgar, 'cant be bothered' would be adeq6and polite, there's never any need for foul language, unless of course the author has a limited vocabulary.I can't be bothered either, I have a busy life, perhaps someone else can.You haven't replied regarding whether you're employed by a company or self employed  ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

I wouldn't bring up 'nothing good to say about you' Loraine given some of the comments about you on twitter. Who would have guessed you were so well known in the area? This has nothing to do with cycling either.Funny that you say 'I won't mention your latest bloomer' then mention 'Stavely and SCR'.Not sure what you mean by 'bloomer' given it is a flowering plant.  If you meant 'blooper', then please show where I made this mistake.  I couldn't be arsed checking but given you have brought it up twice now, please point to the actual post.If it comes to me pointing out when you are wrong, versus the other way round, if it was a boxing match the referee would have stopped the fight in favour of me by now.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

Russell I'm looking forward to Mr Robinson's reply to your post

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

I have a limited vocabulary Loraine.  It is none of your fecking business, is it?

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

For once we agree, you do have a limited vocabulary if you have to resort to vulgarisms, and you seemingly prove that numerate people aren't very literate. Now do stop throwing your toys out of your pram and grow up.

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

I put it into Tableau.  I don't have access to a PowerBI license.  Similar products, really.Some of the data could be loaded directly into Tableau after it was reformatted but the ANPR data needed processing beforehand.For this I wrote Python code using the Pandas data analysis library and this did the numberplate matching to produce an origin-destination matrix showing traffic volumes and journey times between each camera location.Further code worked out local trips vs. through trip based upon origin, destination and journey time.I asked the council for an older data set before they made the S Chiswick data available so I could figure out how to analyse it and write the code.I showed the output to the MD of Tracsis, the company who did the survey.  He thought it was great and was chuffed that a member of the public was taking an interest in this type of thing. We had a bit of a chat about the pros and cons of Tableau vs PowerBI.A nice little project and a bit more mentally stimulating than watching boxsets in the evening during lockdown

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

I'm not on Twitter as it's  a place of nasty toxic posters who can indulge into scurrilous untruths, you should be in your element there !

Loraine Pemberton ● 2229d

They already have some infrastructure in place with the ANPR cameras on Turnham Green.  It's not like they are starting from scratch.They must have a team to manage that, and some kind of network, and database admin facility.Processing power and storage is cheap these days.  Google suggests you can buy ANPR cameras for a few hundred pounds.  The only really big expense should be installing the cameras and connecting them.  Fines should pay for the long term upkeep.  Once installed, the costs should be minimal, and fines should pay them.

Al Webber ● 2229d

Blimey you really are keen to see our roadways buggered up in Grove Park where majority of the residents actually living there didn't want them closed off.  We'd like the heavy goods vehicles banned unless admitted by special permit - LBH recycling and refuse trucks permitted on collection day.  Deliveries to pubs/local shops permitted.  Roads swept and cleaned, existing cycle lanes kept clear of holes, lumps, broken kerbs and all detritus, pavements mended and tress tended.  SDeed limits enforced and school streets made safe while opening and going home times.

Jennifer Selig ● 2229d

It’s a great case study in how data is useless until it’s turned into meaningful knowledge. What a series of bloomers they’re making!I’d add no parking over cycle lanes - e.g. Hartington Road, and have cycle lanes that neither conflict with pedestrians, nor run past parked cars. Oh and safe and secure places to lock a bike up.

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

Saying that through traffic has increased on a road with no through traffic is scaremongering. And also quite silly. Your shrill response to that being called out doesn't change the fact. The Harvard Hill trial carries all the carrot it needs and is attracing far less criticism now that is has been in place for a while. Grove Park Terrace, St Mary's Grove, Burnaby Gardens, Fauconberg Rd, Wolseley Gardens all lovely and quiet during this morning's rush hour. They are quiet all the time now. Residents love quiet streets. Because they are great.

Paul Campbell ● 2229d

You must be able to come up with better solutions than they’re offering with all that info surely? Would be great to see different options and alternatives based on the data models and projections. Current ones neither meet my needs as a cyclist or a motorist.

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

Finally to respond to Michael "I have the data and you are all wrong" Robinson.I am guessing that he has never tried driving down Staveley Road.  There are 2 distinct parts: SCR to Park Road (lets call it the Residential Section) and Park Road to the A316 (the School Section).Outside of school times it is definitely possible to speed down the School Section, it is straight, limited road furniture.  During school times, it would be much more difficult to speed other than on a moped, cars are parked on both sides, often school buses, I am sure there are idiots who would try it, but in general I have only seen sensible speeds there (less than 30 mph). I suspect many/most people would probably support closing access to the School Section from the A316 if only on grounds of school kid safety.The Residential Section is very hard to speed significantly on.  Between traffic islands, parked cars and vans it is a slalom course.  There may be times of the day/night when it is not, but clearly not the times I use it.  I fully accept that many people are above the 20 mph limit but most of those will be 30 mph or less.  Of course there will be idiots doing more but I have never seen them (other than on mopeds)...maybe an actual resident of Staveley Road would confirm

Justin Stephenson ● 2229d

"You must be able to come up with better solutions than they’re offering with all that info surely? "Nope!The data just quantifies the problems that many people in the area knew already and provides some additional insight but it doesn't design a solution.I am an engineer but not transport so while I'm familiar with some things done elsewhere, I know enough to say I don't know enough to design an area wide scheme like this.Like anything in engineering, there are a bunch of things available in the toolkit (barriers, banned turns, ANPR...), they have their pros and cons, there is a budget and a design ultimately involves compromise and trade-offs.Sticking planters around the area would guarantee no through traffic and would be cheap but would also mean far bigger detours for some journeys.  I think the council has tried to reduce the impact of this by the diagonal filter and ANPR but the trade-off here is additional complexity, cost and some uncertainty about how effective they may be.I've been burned by new tech too many times in my career so tend to be cautious.  It is definitely worth trying ANPR in a limited fashion but an entire project completely dependent on something a team has never implemented before rings alarm bells.  Budget will be a factor and planters are cheap.

Michael Robinson ● 2229d

Staveley residents part is not a fast road in my experience -  it’s too narrow with cars squeezing by. The school end often get jammed up because of parked cars esp if a bus comes down. Should be double yellow with a cycle lane.Grove Park Terrace is a race track, all the more so since Harvard was closed. Would like to see data on speeds there.

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

Limited budget, guinea pigs, beginners. It just gets better and better.

Russell Pearson ● 2229d

MichaelRather seems like you're backtracking on your previous comments  ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2228d

"Grove Park Terrace is a race track, all the more so since Harvard was closed. Would like to see data on speeds there."There may have been a sensor installed there in the last few weeks.  There are now loads all over Chiswick.For the survey last year, there were two sensors on Grove Park Terrace, one south of Grove Park Gdns and the other between Fauconberg and Burnaby.Both had slower speeds than Staveley.  For the southern one, 75% of vehicles were below 20mph, northern it was over 90%.From the co-ordinates of the sensor, I'd say the northern sensor was positioned too close to the junction with Fauconberg as cars would have been slowing down then.

Michael Robinson ● 2228d

Good luck getting somewhere safe to keep your cycle like a Cyclehoop!  You can park 6 bikes in one of them and 12 bikes in the space of one car.  Not sure this sort of democracy will allow it.

Philippa Bond ● 2228d

I’m interested in ones I could use when shopping, or commuting. Just somewhere really safe to leave a bike. They used to have a camera at Turnham Green tube to monitor locked bikes. That said, it never seemed very effective and I think that might have other duties now.The Japanese have this sorted I’m told - automated bike safes where you can leave it securely. A simpler solution would be bike parks where you have booked in spaces and someone looking after the bikes in person. Could have been a great use of Shapps’ money. I’d pay if they had that at Sainsbury’s.

Russell Pearson ● 2228d

Funny you should mention the Japanese and cycle security, Russell.When we brought up the issue of cycle parking way back when, an issue I see is on Philippa's agenda, we investigated when told the Japanese did, indeed, have it sorted. Including payment for the infrastructure. We thought a concentration of cycle parking somewhere would be an indicator that maybe all the promised cyclists would translate to all the promised revenue. And yet we still see absolutely no provision for increased cycle parking anywhere along the CS9 route nor nearby.Mind you, that revenue would offset the loss of revenue in vehicular parking being removed. Something a cash-strapped council with any proven ability in financial management would gladly embrace. But no. We don't have that.It would also go a long way toward achieving the goal of improving walking and cycling. And re-invigorating the high streets. Joined up thinking, is it not?

David Lesniak ● 2228d

Interesting. I wouldn’t dream of leaving my road bike out of sight for any time, too many bikes are stolen. If they could do one thing to encourage me to cycle more it would be offering secure places to leave my bike when shopping, socialising, going to the cinema etc. With no consultation, I’m left unheard.

Russell Pearson ● 2228d

There's nothing to stop you being heard.  Feedback has been asked for.  Supermarkets should have cycle parking but the non cyclists have this idea that you can't do any shopping on a bike and have to have a car.  In fact many people do shop using a bike.  The Cyclehoop hangers which are lockable are I think expected to be rented near people's homes rather than by shoppers but why not ask?  You can request a space from the Councils.  There are other bike lockers.  Bromptons used to be rented from bike lockers.https://www.bromptonbikehire.com/docksThere was a complaint about them being located on a green public space at Ealing Broadway and I'm not sure whether they are still there.https://www.stolenride.co.uk/more-secure-bike-storage/https://www.bikeregister.com/I've recently seen new Sheffield stands set in groups of three or four diagonally to the pavement which seems to give more space and looks neat.  They just need to be very much in plain sight and it is not somewhere to leave a bike overnight if you can help it.  Never leave a bike attached to a road sign pole over which it can be lifted up and off!Somebody had a bike stolen from the rack outside Turnham Green tube where there is or was a camera but there was difficulty getting help to see what was on it.  Councils could definitely do better here.  The racks need to work well and be maintained.  There are companies that sell lockers and racks that do this.   

Philippa Bond ● 2227d

I keep my bike at home. Bike  hoops and residents lockers are insecure and very different from safe secure places to lock bikes up while away from home. As you say, the new outside hoops such as in Sheffield are best avoided. The Bike register sites are very ineffective against theft, and you have near zero chance of getting a bike back via them if stolen.Btw does the camera at Turnham Green monitor bikes? I thought it generates revenue from cars. Our council couldn’t do much worse. And they do not listen.

Russell Pearson ● 2227d

When the government and TfL pour millions of pounds into cycling infrastructure and call it the best thing since sliced bread in terms of high street trading, one shouldn't have to feedback and consult and ask for evidence cycle parking is increased. One shouldn't have to feedback and consult and ask why Chiswick will still not be part of the city-wide cycling network that is Santander bikes. It is blatantly obvious.These two things, amongst others, are not important. They are not prioritized in any way shape or form. And as the road closures are also foisted upon us without clear evidence or engagement, is it any wonder why people object? The only thing to stop those of us who dare ask a question is the steadfast refusal of TfL and LBH to engage with the entire community. And by that I mean the entire community. Exhibit A: our shop is mere meters away from CS9 and we have yet to receive notice that works have begun. An article on this forum said they sent letters to all businesses. Did they? Deja vu. They didn't the first time. They didn't this time. And now we're seeing precisely the same tactic being employed not only by LBH and TfL but by our very own neighbors: people who live in the LTNs and on the streets impacted haven't been forewarned. They haven't been included. I'd expect that from LBH and TfL. But from your neighbors?

David Lesniak ● 2227d

Are you deliberately misinterpreting me?I said I wouldn't want to leave a bike on a Sheffield stand overnight.  That is not the same as saying they are no good for a short stay.I don't know that the Cyclehoop bikehangers are no good either.  Where did you get that idea from?  Where do you suggest super secure bike parking goes?  Universities and workplaces often manage to find space on site for this but I can't see how it would fit easily on a high street. If you know where why don't you suggest it. It's probably always worth getting insurance for your bike especially if it is very valuable or extremely important for your daily commute as well.  A lot of people don't seem to bother or perhaps don't learn how to lock up their bikes securely and may not bother to do anything about finding them either.  No wonder pinching them is good sport and business.  Is it that many people buy online now and don't get the advice they might from a bike shop? 

Philippa Bond ● 2226d

But David you hate Mobikes so much so why are you so keen on Santander bikes?  I always understood that they were very expensive to provide.  I've seen some in the past few weeks being ridden around Chiswick.  Maybe they are now expanding further across London.

Philippa Bond ● 2226d

I have bike theft insurance, and as a member of LCC liability too. I can see that you’ve maybe not actually experienced the issues of leaving a half decent bike the thieves want, in open view, and unattended for a few hours. Btw I rarely see the top end bikes that many LCC users have, locked up outside in open view in London. I see a good few on the road though.

Russell Pearson ● 2226d

Well I wouldn't want a flash car in London either.  We once had a Golf GTi company car and it was no end of a worry until in the end the whole of it completely disappeared one night.

Philippa Bond ● 2226d

Is it now a sin to have a VW GTI and a half decent bike? I may need to atone, and see a Pardoner if so.

Russell Pearson ● 2226d

Easy, peasy Philippa.One, Santander are part of a city-wide network thus connecting the entire city. They have docking stations and are neatly organized at convenient points. They also pay for their advertising so someone somewhere benefits not just Santander.Mobikes are not part of a city-wide network. They are micro networks servicing outer boroughs which is why several different companies sprouted up (but seemed now to have died) around the city.Expense is no worry. TfL found millions to fund cycle superhighways intended to connect the city. It is unfathomable they did not sync up a pre-existing network nor reach out to Santander to arrange for some enhanced agreement. The cost to install Santander docks is a mere drop in the bucket and should have been a high priority. You may also note, Philippa, Mobikes are no longer being dropped off anywhere. Take a good close look at the people riding them. It's always the same one or two blokes. That's it.

David Lesniak ● 2226d

Of course not a sin.  We inherited the car and to us it was just a car but it turned out to be particularly desirable to some other members of society.  Each new safety measure is just seen as a new challenge to overcome by some.  Once the whole car had gone it took us a while to learn not to look outside every time there was noise in the street!  Much less stressful and better sleep.

Philippa Bond ● 2224d

I had a look and it now seems that there are Santander bikes based by Ravenscourt Park tube.  No wonder I've seen them in Chiswick.  I first saw the dockless bikes in Hammersmith about three years ago I think, they were bright yellow.  It seems that they were just put on the street with no by-your-leave and H&F although initially not too upset eventually got fed up with them being left everywhere.Santander bikes get looked after far better - something that must also make them costlier.Tactically everybody other than the Govt would have been expected to do anything that might be unpopular to reduce pollution and CO2.  Paris had these bikes before us and Ken Livingstone started their introduction.  We seem very slow here to make any changes.

Philippa Bond ● 2224d

The bright yellow ones were Ofo. No longer in operation. Mobike doesn't appear operational either as the app isn't functioning.And yes, Philippa, it is precisely these bikes being left anywhere to which I'm opposed. They are left anywhere that is convenient for the cyclist without consideration to anyone or anything else. If Santander users don't put the bike back in the dock themselves, they continue to get charged. It's guaranteed Santander bikes are put in place. It removes the unpredictability of personal responsibility which the other systems simply don't consider.

David Lesniak ● 2223d