Forum Topic

TGT, no information, no consultation,

Can the Council make such major changes without any consultation with the shop keepers, local residents, of whom I am just one,  about how this may affect them. While passing motorists may get some very unfair tickets, local shop keepers who so far seem completely unaware, have not been told or consulted about what may present an overwhelming threat to their already hard hit businesses. NoR have residents on neighbouring roads been prepared for the fact of the extra traffic and parking they are about to encounter. If I want an extension to my house I have to go through an intense, lengthy  and expensive planning process, but somehow the Council can bring about a massive change without any consultation at all?  Is this legal or fair and have they really plotted the true impacts I’m genuinely worried. .Even if you hate cars, surely this is not the way to go about things.

Jackie Elton ● 2303d40 Comments

Don't worry Dominic Cummings wants to overhaul the planning process as well.

Philippa Bond ● 2302d

The decision whether or not to consult cannot be laid at Cummings's or central government's door. It is wholly and solely a decision (not to consult or inform) made by LBH.

N V Brooks ● 2302d

It has become a normal habit to blame the Government for absolutely anything though by the Phillipas of the world

Paul Fisher ● 2302d

"The decision whether or not to consult cannot be laid at Cummings's or central government's door. It is wholly and solely a decision (not to consult or inform) made by LBH."That's not correct. DfT requirements effectively made it impossible to implement changes using the Traffic Management Order process which has a minimum 3 week consultation before making a permanent change to the roads.Instead the DfT streamlined the process for Experimental Traffic Orders which have a 6 month consultation period and the council must make a decision to remove the measures, or make them permanent, within 18 months.So there is a consultation and it is running until the end of the year.Requirements from the DfT to councils are basically to take action, then consult if it should be made permanent.If people disagree with that approach, they should take it up with the DfT.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

It may be that they are acting within the law as it stands but it does seem extraordinary that the only reason we know enforcement is active is because the local press asked the question.

Paul Corcoran ● 2302d

The DfT reviewed the scheme, approved it because it met their criteria and funded it. They rejected lots of schemes from Councils like RBKC because they did not meet their criteria. RBKC is struggling to get funding for transport generally now. Consultation is part of the ETO process - 1. implement swiftly, 2. consult, 3. review/adapt/cancel/make permanent. Informing is with LBH yes. The DfT has kicked off the process for the second round of funding this week.I'm not blaming the government by the way. I am happy with their approach.

Paul Campbell ● 2302d

MichaelDid LBH have to make these changes ?Or have they made them to receive the financial benefits ie Grant's from Central Government ?

Loraine Pemberton ● 2302d

Travelling East you have very little chance of seeing the access only signs.By the lights there is a no right turn sign but nothing on the lights to indicate access only turning left.If the intention is to prevent through traffic then this should have been put in place from day one.

Adrian Irving ● 2302d

It is simply a matter of the council following government policy - something they have to do for all sorts of things. You could equally ask if the council just follows the government's policy for, say, social care, to receive money for this.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

I'd recommend everyone has their say at https://haveyoursay.hounslow.gov.uk/traffic-and-transport/streetspace-feedback/Some people will love this idea, personally I think its crazy. If they ignore your opinion then vote accordingly.

Steven Knox ● 2302d

I think Michael you are a touch disingenuous here. The key guidance is to make more space available for pedestrians and cycling, a wide variety of approaches are suggested to achieve this. Closing the parking bays, as has been done, could have achieved the former. There is still not more space for cycling given the parked vans, buses, taxis etc. There was funding available and Hounslow grabbed at this, they did NOT NEED to close TGT to through traffic.

Paul Green ● 2302d

Micahel, while there must be consultation before the permanancy of any scheme is considered there is no requirement to consult for an ETO as is the case here.It is worthwhile noting that Wandsworth seek resident's views before the ETO stage,

N V Brooks ● 2302d

NV, that isn’t correct, there is a statutory requirement to consult for an ETO. The difference is the consultation happens while the scheme is in place rather than before.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

MichaelYou haven't answered  my question, please stop judging and evading my questions. Thank you

Loraine Pemberton ● 2302d

“ The key guidance is to make more space available for pedestrians and cycling, a wide variety of approaches are suggested to achieve this. ”Guidance says, “The quickest and cheapest way of achieving this will normally be point closures. These can be of certain main roads (with exceptions for buses, access and for disabled people,”That sounds like DR and TGT to me.I really don’t know why you are wasting time arguing with me on this forum because that won’t change anything. If you disagree with how the funding has been allocated then suggest you contact the DfT.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

I did answer your question - the council is following government policy to get funding, as it needs to do for lots of areas.If you don’t like the government policy then complain to the DfT or vote for another party next election.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

No Michael, here I think you are being very disingenuous, I will keep repeating this. There is a lot of guidance from the DoT and TFL, with a dozen or more options called out. Hounslow did NOT need to close TGT. They did not need to apply for the funding to do so, but chose to. This was a discretionary decision by LBH, to imply otherwise is not truthful.Also, vehicle closures could be limited to certain times of day, which could have been an option for DR.There are also a couple of interesting points on the DoT COVID website:* Authorities should seek input from stakeholders during the design phase*  Local businesses, including those temporarily closed, should be consulted to ensure proposals meet their needs when they re-opeSo its clear Hounslow did not do this. So maybe those are questions for LBH rather than the govnt.

Paul Green ● 2302d

Paul,The very first item mention in the DfT letter to London councils is “The quickest and cheapest way of achieving this will normally be point closures.” which is what has been done For TGT and DR.Other measures mentioned such as school streets, popup cycle lanes, aren’t applicable.As I said, you are wasting your time arguing on this website with me. Write up your opinions and submit them to the consultation.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

Indeed Michael. To quote from  the "Hounslow Streetspace Governance" document:"The use of temporary and experimental traffic orders... allows the council to implement the scheme quickly and simultaneously consult those impacted by it." In what way are Hounslow simultaneously consulting? I am unaware of any proactive consultation process or attempt to keep people informed over this. Even now it is coming as a total shock to many of those most affected. It is only thanks to concerned residents doing their own homework and posting links on sites like this that any channels of communication are being opened. I think Hounslow is very close to abusing  its position of trust here. If indeed any trust remains.

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

There are an unbelievable number of people who seem to be averse to any change and will vote against it without considering it properly.We need to make changes to our lives - we had and probably still have illegal air pollution levels - and this way you get to experience different solutions to the problems we and the rest of the world are facing and solutions can be tweaked having seen what happens.  We need to live differently.

Philippa Bond ● 2302d

Philippa, you seem very good at making huge sweeping generalisations. Research has shown that queues of traffic are most polluting, but by only leaving one route open for traffic to move north-south over the tube lines this is what will happen.This scheme is just displacing traffic. I would vote for Fishers Lane, not that we are being consulted as yet and not that it will be a vote. Schemes need to be considered on their merits.

Paul Green ● 2302d

Michael, as long as you insist on being disingenuous, I will keep correcting you. So lets be clear:* The govnt did not tell LBH to close TGT* LBH had a range of options available to them* LBH chose to close TGT with a 24 hour access only restriction* They did not consult with stakeholders or local traders, as they are advised to doTHere are other issues and roads that LBH could have chosen to address. Just as they could have closed say Brentford High St, but chose not to. So one line on a letter does not set govnt policy, given that all measures are at the discretion of the LA.I will respond to the consultation. Lets hope hundreds of people who live far away and will probably never step foot on TGT don't attempt to sway it.

Paul Green ● 2302d

Any evidence of the 'simultaneous consultation' actually happening would be welcome.

N V Brooks ● 2302d

Paul, the government stated “The quickest and cheapest way of achieving this [the policy] will normally be point closures.”DR and TGT closure meets the policy, the government gives Hounslow the money, the government is happy a council is implementing their policy.I get that you aren’t happy but it is pointless arguing about hypotheticals.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

I’m going to go out in a limb and say the place you will find consultations run by Hounslow is the consultation section of the Hounslow website.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

It's such a LOT of space these days on TGT and DR. No customers, either pedestrian or cyclists. Soon there'll be no businesses to attend to.

Adam Pycz ● 2302d

Correct! Why is it that I never see any links to the Streetspace feedback page provided by the Council or indeed the proponents of these contentious measures? Surely it can't be because they would rather people were kept in ignorance of how officially  to express their views? For what it's worth here it is again. Everyone should click and comment - whatever their opinion. Your MP is also easily contactable.https://haveyoursay.hounslow.gov.uk/traffic-and-transport/streetspace-feedback/

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

We are not arguing about hypotheticals, you implied it was govnt policy to close TGT, it wasn't and its not. If it is govnt policy, then how come TGT is the only main road being closed in the borough. Why have they not implemented govnt policy and closed Brentford High St? Should we report them?There is a clear and simple point: this decision was taken by LBH and the council officials, so drop the ludicrous stuff about changing govnt.

Paul Green ● 2302d

All your points about what the council could have done are hypothetical.“how come TGT is the only main road being closed in the borough“It isn’t. This is something I’ve also told you before but you seem to have forgotten.Wellesley Rd is the A3000 therefore is more of a main road than TGT which is only a B road (B419).Brentford High St is the A315 so also a higher classification of road than TGT. Maybe there will be a plan for popup cycle lanes there. Need to wait until the next round of funding for that.

Michael Robinson ● 2302d

Correct Bruce.It should not be for those affected by such schemes to have to go and seek the link to comment. This should be actively promoted by LBH.It's a bit like the Vogon plans to destroy the Earth in Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy which were 'freely available' in a locked filing cabinet in the basement just past the 'Beware Of The Leopard' sign.

N V Brooks ● 2302d

If only it were that easy!

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

I wonder if just setting up a web page and leaving it there for chance discovery really counts as "consultation" - surely the onus is on the local authority to actively solicit views? Any legal eagles care to comment?

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

Sorry for the serial posting. It just occured to me that  this Consultation Checklist from the Local Government Association is worth reading. I wonder if Hounslow Council have seen it.https://www.local.gov.uk/consultation-check-listSome extracts:"Promote the exercise: Request support from within your council to increase awareness of the consultation. You will want to post details of the consultation several weeks prior to it commencing.Gather and input data: Record the views of participants in a transparent and accessible way. This may be easier for text-based methods such as surveys, than face-to-face methods, for instance.Monitor the responses: Keep track of the number of responses you receive so action can be taken to improve response rates if necessary. Check the responses being submitted to get an indication of the issues arising."

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

In another thread on the TW8 forum I asked the LBH cabinet member for highways, Guy Lambert, how many people had been consulted, how many had responded and how many had responded in favour of the closure of Occupation Lane, Ealing (albeit the closure in in Brentford) a small road leading to the stroke revovery and rehabilitation unit at Clayponds Hospital.  Reply came there none, just a statement that he is 'proud of the scheme'.

N V Brooks ● 2302d

Surely the local authority has a duty to record all responses to the consultation (which runs until Dec 27th) both in terms of opinions expressed and numbers commenting. Also to reveal this under the Freedom of Information Act. I know these measures were rushed through but Hounslow seems to have made no effort to provide even limited advance notice of the changes either to affected business owners or residents. There is a lack of transparency here which I find concerning and which does not bode well for the time when major decisions will have to be made on whether or not the temporary arrangements are to become permanent. Don't let this slip through as a fait accompli.

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

I like your approach to this Bruce. It is important to ensure that people know how to provide feedback during the consultation period. It is beneficial to society to have voices like yours joining this discussion.

Paul Campbell ● 2302d

Paul, I will take that as being entirely devoid of sarcasm! You will be relieved to know that  I am pretty much at the end of my campaign for now. In fact I would have finished  it already were it not for the fact that I do sincerely believe that Hounslow have been (possibly wilfully) negligent in carrying out their stautory duties here. I wish there were more voices raised in protest - not at the measures (though as you know I have serious doubts about their efficacy) but at the woeful lack of communication from our council. It is almost as if they don't actually care what people think - but of course that couldn't possibly be true.

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

Honestly Bruce it was entirely devoid of sarcasm and you were correct to take it that way. You present reasonable arguments in a dispassionate way and I welcome your voice in this discussion. Please do not stop contributing.

Paul Campbell ● 2302d

I appreciate that; sometimes it's hard to tell here!  If I ever find anything else that's possibly worth saying I won't hesitate to put my oar in. You do have to admit though that this is a bit like a members only club........it all takes a bit of working out.

Bruce Hammal ● 2302d

Bruce Just lately it has become a members only club. Dominated by people that are always right, your point of view will be disregarded, by some of the very well off members of the sick Chiswick club.

Bernard Allen ● 2302d